Silly_Girl Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 In going through some issues with regards to my relationship with my ex-bf, and also MM, I am wrestling with something and chances are that you clever folk have been there before me, or can shine a light right through my arguments. Apart from with my close family (a whole different therapy session ) I am generally leaning towards having a high level of empathy with those I care about. [You can already see where this is headed, can't you?!] For example, my understanding and consideration of the poor childhood my ex-bf suffered, and the issues with truth (or lack of) after his dad lied to him about his mum's terminal condition, and so much more, meant that I was far, far, FAR too accepting of his behaviour towards me. I used it as excuses, I know I did. Even at the time I think I had an awareness of that. But I was fighting something in myself, trying to find a middle ground that was 'right'. My mum had always called me selfish when I was younger, and I came away from my marriage thinking she must be right. So I was super-determined to not behave in that manner in any future relationships. Fundamentally there is no reason on earth for my ex to have treated me as he did, and he also refused to get help for a very long time. And through it all I was so supportive and understanding. I was being a 'good person'. I thought. Fast-forward a bit and I am feeling so sad for MM. I understand what it is like to have your brain tell you that you must leave a bad relationship, but for fear and guilt to prevent you from behaving in a rational manner. I find it hard to be angry with him, or to find him lacking because of this. My new life started the day I moved my ex-bf in to a flat whilst he was away on a course. I hired a van (looked so funny in my work suit, sheer tights and heels hopping up in to the truck and driving off!!) and shifted him myself. It was the only way. And I had no clue until the days after that how oppressive the household had been, how I was living in fear. It didn't end there, the trauma and upset and violence, but that's when I realised what I had been living in. Who am I to judge MM? To say that he is wrong or that I should not care. I realise there is the argument of me looking after myself, and I am on the case... but that aside, I DO care and I do think he is in a very bad place. And I want to be there for him, knowing he has no one else at all. Now whether I AM there for him is a different matter, but I haven't stopped feeling for him or being able to understand why he is where he is and why he is so confused about everything. I have talked about him on the boards, but it doesn't cover everything, obviously, as to my understanding of their relationship, and I feel incredibly sad for both of them. Question is, I guess, when does it stop being a caring quality and something positive (as it is in most of my friendships) and when does it become a concern or a threat to one's emotional wellbeing? And - can one choose to not have empathy for another?
BB07 Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 I so get what you are saying SG........and I struggle with that right now with all that has happened in the last two weeks. Some part of me feel empathy for him even though he damn well doesn't deserve it and part of me struggles with thinking I know why he has done what he has done. (his childhood issues) No matter how much empathy we feel for someone, it should not excuse the inexcusable nor should we let it give ourselves excuses to allow someone to treat us badly. We all have our own messes in life, but we can't let our empathy for someone else rule us.
carhill Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Question is, I guess, when does it stop being a caring quality and something positive (as it is in most of my friendships) and when does it become a concern or a threat to one's emotional wellbeing? And - can one choose to not have empathy for another? When the outcome of the experience of empathy becomes anything other than a positive and uplifting feeling in one's life. That's the time to re-evaluate. Empathy and caring are gifts we share; gifts of the best of the essence of who we are. Whenever the giving of that gift starts to *feel* unhealthy, that's a sign worth paying attention to. Yes, one can *choose* to not have empathy for another, *even* if one has shown them empathy in the past. Remember, empathy is a *gift* we *choose* to give. We can direct that gift however and whenever we choose. Having made the *choice*, one accepts that the result of their gift is outside one's control. Whatever the response is, *accept* it. You're free to choose again next time, or never. It's up to you
Author Silly_Girl Posted July 18, 2010 Author Posted July 18, 2010 When the outcome of the experience of empathy becomes anything other than a positive and uplifting feeling in one's life. That's the time to re-evaluate. Empathy and caring are gifts we share; gifts of the best of the essence of who we are. Whenever the giving of that gift starts to *feel* unhealthy, that's a sign worth paying attention to. Yes, one can *choose* to not have empathy for another, *even* if one has shown them empathy in the past. Remember, empathy is a *gift* we *choose* to give. We can direct that gift however and whenever we choose. Having made the *choice*, one accepts that the result of their gift is outside one's control. Whatever the response is, *accept* it. You're free to choose again next time, or never. It's up to you Love this place, such simple stuff but often someone else's words fit so much better!! Thanks for this. Yes, it felt unhealthy with my ex. I know it was because I stopped trying to get others to see my point of view or to have empathy for him also (albeit at a lesser level). It doesn't feel at all unhealthy with MM, currently. But it would go on to feel unhealthy one day, perhaps. If I was feeling used/hurt or if it I felt it wasn't appreciated/welcome. Hhmmmm.... Interesting.
Author Silly_Girl Posted July 18, 2010 Author Posted July 18, 2010 I so get what you are saying SG........and I struggle with that right now with all that has happened in the last two weeks. Some part of me feel empathy for him even though he damn well doesn't deserve it and part of me struggles with thinking I know why he has done what he has done. (his childhood issues) No matter how much empathy we feel for someone, it should not excuse the inexcusable nor should we let it give ourselves excuses to allow someone to treat us badly. We all have our own messes in life, but we can't let our empathy for someone else rule us. All agreed. It's hard, innit?! But yes, I definitely wouldn't want my empathy to be a tool for me to excuse unwarranted behaviour. Not after having been there before.
silverplanets Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 In going through some issues with regards to my relationship with my ex-bf, and also MM, I am wrestling with something and chances are that you clever folk have been there before me, or can shine a light right through my arguments. Apart from with my close family (a whole different therapy session ) I am generally leaning towards having a high level of empathy with those I care about. [You can already see where this is headed, can't you?!] For example, my understanding and consideration of the poor childhood my ex-bf suffered, and the issues with truth (or lack of) after his dad lied to him about his mum's terminal condition, and so much more, meant that I was far, far, FAR too accepting of his behaviour towards me. I used it as excuses, I know I did. Even at the time I think I had an awareness of that. But I was fighting something in myself, trying to find a middle ground that was 'right'. My mum had always called me selfish when I was younger, and I came away from my marriage thinking she must be right. So I was super-determined to not behave in that manner in any future relationships. Fundamentally there is no reason on earth for my ex to have treated me as he did, and he also refused to get help for a very long time. And through it all I was so supportive and understanding. I was being a 'good person'. I thought. Fast-forward a bit and I am feeling so sad for MM. I understand what it is like to have your brain tell you that you must leave a bad relationship, but for fear and guilt to prevent you from behaving in a rational manner. I find it hard to be angry with him, or to find him lacking because of this. My new life started the day I moved my ex-bf in to a flat whilst he was away on a course. I hired a van (looked so funny in my work suit, sheer tights and heels hopping up in to the truck and driving off!!) and shifted him myself. It was the only way. And I had no clue until the days after that how oppressive the household had been, how I was living in fear. It didn't end there, the trauma and upset and violence, but that's when I realised what I had been living in. Who am I to judge MM? To say that he is wrong or that I should not care. I realise there is the argument of me looking after myself, and I am on the case... but that aside, I DO care and I do think he is in a very bad place. And I want to be there for him, knowing he has no one else at all. Now whether I AM there for him is a different matter, but I haven't stopped feeling for him or being able to understand why he is where he is and why he is so confused about everything. I have talked about him on the boards, but it doesn't cover everything, obviously, as to my understanding of their relationship, and I feel incredibly sad for both of them. Question is, I guess, when does it stop being a caring quality and something positive (as it is in most of my friendships) and when does it become a concern or a threat to one's emotional wellbeing? And - can one choose to not have empathy for another? Hi SG, Two alternative points of view to mull over ... first: Have you considered that maybe MM is in exactly the position he needs to be in life right now for his own path. That he is at an entirely natural growth part in his life cycle and that this is not, in reality, sad at all but just one of those things life throws at us and which requires us to face it as an individual in order to grow spiritually. Your empathy is "telling" you that this is a sad situation .. but maybe it's not .. maybe he's feeling lots of emotions (sadness maybe one of them) but maybe overall, played out over the timescales of his life, where he is now is exactly where he needs to be in order to grow???? He has his own body, mind and soul and has every right to navigate himself through the growth points of life .. without someone taking away the pain from him. The pain is part of growth, gaining deeper understanding and making one consider what is really important in this world. If you take away his pain then might you well take away his chance for growth???? second: Have you considered if the "selfish" comment from your mother (and I assume there were more) ... your heightened empathy .. and likewise your relationship choices/behaviours are interlinked? I guess I'm hinting in the secure/insecure attachment area and wondering if you've explored this? third (and maybe related to second): Have you considered if the very act of empathy (and perhaps it's associated rescuing) means that your attention is focused on others and not no you .... (OK .. I lied there were three things, not two .. guess I'd better go to that other thread and confess !!!) :) Not saying any of the above is correct, true or even relevant ... just that you requested challenging viewpoints and, knowing that you are able to take it in a construtive fashion, thought I would throw these in ... I know dealing with the fallout of xMW I ended worked it all through over the months and came up with some quite interesting things from my childhood which I was then able to address. Hope this helps /provokes thought ... (and that the thoughts are directed towards you and not MM !!!) Chris
pureinheart Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Who am I to judge MM? To say that he is wrong or that I should not care. I realise there is the argument of me looking after myself, and I am on the case... but that aside, I DO care and I do think he is in a very bad place. And I want to be there for him, knowing he has no one else at all. Now whether I AM there for him is a different matter, but I haven't stopped feeling for him or being able to understand why he is where he is and why he is so confused about everything. I have talked about him on the boards, but it doesn't cover everything, obviously, as to my understanding of their relationship, and I feel incredibly sad for both of them. Question is, I guess, when does it stop being a caring quality and something positive (as it is in most of my friendships) and when does it become a concern or a threat to one's emotional wellbeing? And - can one choose to not have empathy for another? Hi SG...the dividing line, not sure although I think you and MM have a special R. Just want to say we all are selfish in some manor...funny how others can spot all of the things we are and not see it in themselves, I have more recently found that interesting. My mother called me hard-headed...that is the truth...lol, although it took one to see one:) I guess the things to look for would be: Have you lost yourself in the course of helping another? This is the only one I could think of, I've been chasing an 18mo old for a few days now:). I don't think we should ever not have empathy...one suggestion, when it gets too bad for me, I take a step back and just pray for that particular individual...more times than not I have to let go and let God:)
pureinheart Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 When the outcome of the experience of empathy becomes anything other than a positive and uplifting feeling in one's life. That's the time to re-evaluate. Empathy and caring are gifts we share; gifts of the best of the essence of who we are. Whenever the giving of that gift starts to *feel* unhealthy, that's a sign worth paying attention to. Yes, one can *choose* to not have empathy for another, *even* if one has shown them empathy in the past. Remember, empathy is a *gift* we *choose* to give. We can direct that gift however and whenever we choose. Having made the *choice*, one accepts that the result of their gift is outside one's control. Whatever the response is, *accept* it. You're free to choose again next time, or never. It's up to you There is a point when we can be taken advantage of...home girl is famous for that...the perverbial doormat. Not saying MM is this way, although there are many that would love to take "help". I am having people come to my door panhandling, that is how willing people are to "take".
White Flower Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Question is, I guess, when does it stop being a caring quality and something positive (as it is in most of my friendships) and when does it become a concern or a threat to one's emotional wellbeing? And - can one choose to not have empathy for another? I don't know your complete backstory SG, so answering might not be spot on. But I don't believe you can choose to not have empathy for another. You simply ARE empathetic or you are not. You might be able to choose with regard to sympathy, but empathy is a shared experience; you've been there. Sympathy is something you have to imagine because you haven't been there yourself. But you DO have a choice in getting involved, that I know. You can empathize all you want but getting further involved is a choice. My biggest lesson in my own A is that I now know I can't fix him. He has to want to fix himself. I can be his cheerleader, if he wants me to be while he does his own work but that's it. It was a valuable lesson for me.
jj33 Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 SG I think too much empathy can become a problem when it leads you to excuse or accept behavior or circumstances that you should not be excusing or accepting. Sometimes too much empathy can lead us to rationalize why its OK for him to do xyz. Or to "understand him" in a way that noone else does and again same result accepting or excusing things we should not.
wheelwright Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 I don't know your complete backstory SG, so answering might not be spot on. But I don't believe you can choose to not have empathy for another. You simply ARE empathetic or you are not. You might be able to choose with regard to sympathy, but empathy is a shared experience; you've been there. Sympathy is something you have to imagine because you haven't been there yourself. But you DO have a choice in getting involved, that I know. You can empathize all you want but getting further involved is a choice. My biggest lesson in my own A is that I now know I can't fix him. He has to want to fix himself. I can be his cheerleader, if he wants me to be while he does his own work but that's it. It was a valuable lesson for me. I agree with all you wrote except bolded. Empathy in fact is a wonderful amazing facet. It requires intelligence and imagination, because no-one has ever walked in another's shoes. Experience can be an aid, a scaffold. Children under the age of about 3 are apparently unable to imagine how a 3-d model of mountains looks to someone sitting opposite them. Intelligence and imagination eventually enable them to do this. Empathy is similar, only the emotional element is focal. We can extend the mountains experiment and use it as a metaphor for empathy. It is shared, if you express your empathy to the other person. And you are dead right - there's no choice in it. Unless you refuse to look at it at all. Really hard not to look at mountains right there in front of you though... You'd have to leave the room... (NC?)
silverplanets Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 ... Empathy in fact is a wonderful amazing facet. It requires intelligence and imagination, because no-one has ever walked in another's shoes. Experience can be an aid, a scaffold. .... I'd go with this ww ... As far as I understand how we process things in our mind is determined by our neural pathway structure which again is determined by a combination of genetics, lifestyle and experiences ... on top of this we have to add the fact that someone else's nervous systems/senses don't necessarily function as our own and additionally that even if their body is exactly the same and their neural pathways are identical so that the same events tigger the exact same emotions and reactions we STILL each have a unique higher logic/self which can choose to react to these triggers differently ... Empathy perhaps allows us to imagine how they are feeling/processing things but the deeper we try and empathise the harder it is to do so without using how WE would feel/react to a situation as the template for our understanding ... which is why following one's own empathy into oneself can be highly revealing in terms of what we are projecting ... I'm not sure if true empathy can even exist without projection .. unless it is actually not empathy at all but simply straightforward counselling/active listening/reflection purely as a facilitation to somone discovering themselves for themselves (if that makes sense !!!) ... With my daughter I've learnt time and time again not to assume what she is feeling ...because a) I am quite often not perfectly right (and that not quite bit is critically important when it comes to any solution) and b) its much more healthy for her that we stop and that i help facilatate her working out in her own mind what she is feeling and what actions she wants to do ... ... Really hard not to look at mountains right there in front of you though... You'd have to leave the room... (NC?) Are there really any mountains there at all though? What you have is another, independant, stand-alone individual, connected to the rest of humanity through shared environment, history, biology/dna and (hopefully) spiritual awareness BUT with their own free will, just like you the rest of us. To take their life challenges and use them to build mountains in front of yourself is a touch "sinister", is it not? Their life challenges are simply their life challenges ... like we all have ... why do you need to take them and build a mountain in your own life based upon them? If you do so then you've built an unclimable mountain ... in that it's not yours to climb .. it's theirs .. but you've built it in "your" world ... and the only place they can climb it is in their world ... There most probably IS a mountain in your world and quite simply it might be this "how do I deal with this reality that this person I love is not available to me/has lied to me/is not suitable to me/whatever is applicable" ... This mountain IS entirely climable by you as it is entirely in your domain .. and in fact it can only be climbed by you .. no one else can do it for you. Since we never do anything without gain (at some level) to ourselves (even altruistic actions gain us by developing us/sense of well being)) then I am drawn to ask what gain are we getting by building this unclimable mountain in our own life based upon someone else's challenges. One gain I can think of is that it perhaps allows us to justify remaining where we are ... "can't move on cause of this unclimable mountain" etc etc We couldn't do this if we actually acknowledged that their mountain was not our responsibility and that all we had to climb was our own little hill. I am sure there are others potential gains /differnet ones as well. Anyway, that's just some mullings .. interested to know what you think and , as ever ww, you've got a knack of asking good questions/raising good points. ps, know I don't need to say it but when I say "you" in paras above then I don't mean "you" as in your situation .. just mean "you" generically ..(get's rather dull writing "one" all the time !!) :) take care and interested to know your thoughts Chris
White Flower Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Really great post wheelwright! You might be able to choose with regard to sympathy, but empathy is a shared experience; you've been there. Sympathy is something you have to imagine because you haven't been there yourself. I agree with all you wrote except bolded. Empathy in fact is a wonderful amazing facet. It requires intelligence and imagination, because no-one has ever walked in another's shoes. Experience can be an aid, a scaffold. Children under the age of about 3 are apparently unable to imagine how a 3-d model of mountains looks to someone sitting opposite them. Intelligence and imagination eventually enable them to do this. Empathy is similar, only the emotional element is focal. We can extend the mountains experiment and use it as a metaphor for empathy. It is shared, if you express your empathy to the other person. And you are dead right - there's no choice in it. Unless you refuse to look at it at all. Really hard not to look at mountains right there in front of you though... You'd have to leave the room... (NC?) Well now you've made me go and look up the difference. And I need to do it once in a while to refresh my own understanding of the difference between the two words so don't feel put off please. Encarta Dictionary defines empathy as... 1) the ability to identify with and understand somebody else's feelings or difficulties, 2) the transfer of somebody's own feelings and emotions to an object such as a painting. IOW, we feel their pain. Encarta Dictionary defines sympathy as... 1) capacity to share feelings, 2) the feeling or expression of pity or sorrow for the pain or distress of somebody else. IOW, we pity them, but do not identify with their pain. So, I agree with your post except that I DO believe we (sometimes, some of us) have walked in somebody else's shoes.
silverplanets Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 (edited) Really great post wheelwright! Well now you've made me go and look up the difference. And I need to do it once in a while to refresh my own understanding of the difference between the two words so don't feel put off please. Yep - this one is making me think as well !! :) Encarta Dictionary defines empathy as... 1) the ability to identify with and understand somebody else's feelings or difficulties, 2) the transfer of somebody's own feelings and emotions to an object such as a painting. IOW, we feel their pain. I think I'm right in saying that the number of neuron's in the brain is of the magnitude of 100 Billion ... and the number of synapses is Trillions ... Encoded in these are the influences (most of which we are not aware of) from our past, people we know, experiences, reading, knowledge etc etc that control how we parse what's going on around and within us. So, to me, true empathy is saying not only do I understand the exact influences on you, I also understand exactly how your body's senses transmits them to you AND I also understand exactly the configuration of all those billions/trillions of neurons/synapses ... only then can you truly understand how this information is being processed deep within them ... Add in the unconscious part of the brain which is influencing mostly without the owner being aware of it then it's pretty damn difficult to truly and deeply understand our own situation ... let alone gain a true, accurate and in-depth understanding of someone elses. I'd agree it's possible to gain a broad brush appreciation of what influences they might be under .. but again it's just a guess ... since their past is likely to be influencing them pretty strongly and you don't have access to their memories to see this. Going with ww's thoughts, all one can do is "infer" from one's own experience what you think they are experiencing .. but one has to keep in mind that their brain has a differnent mapping of re-inforced connections and that hence how the information is processed will be different). If your emphasising with a MP based on the fact you know them well then it's doubly dangerous ... there's a whole side of them (they're daily minute by minute, second by second, current and past interactions with their partner /family to which you have not been fully exposed to) .. so there's that whole side of them that although you may be aware of you haven't observed in-depth to really understand. You may believe you understand that situation (perhaps through your own experiences of family) but that's making the assumption that your experience is the same as theirs ... so now one is assuming that not only are THEIR connections identical to yours but also that all the connections in all their families are identical to those in your family situation. It's just impossible due to the permutations. Which I think is what ww was saying ... one can guess at what influences they are feeling, one can interpret various cues as to their internal state based upon what their outward cues, one can extrapolate one's own experiences to guess that this might be how they are feeling and one can put all of these together to say that there is evidence that this is their state from a number of sources. But as you're not in their mind, you don't have their past, their brain structure, their dna etc you can't understand exactly how, deep down, they are processing it. All you can do is guess .. The only one who can truly understand how they are feeling is them ... because they are in their reality ... You are working with a model of it, and that model of it is incomplete and in your head ... so it's more likely to tell you about you than it is them .... Gosh my brain hurts now after trying to think that one through ... Hope it makes some sense ... not saying i'm right or wrong .. just these are my thoughts thinking it through ... be safe, and damn that ww for opening it up Chris Edited July 19, 2010 by silverplanets
wheelwright Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Well now you've made me go and look up the difference. And I need to do it once in a while to refresh my own understanding of the difference between the two words so don't feel put off please. Encarta Dictionary defines empathy as... 1) the ability to identify with and understand somebody else's feelings or difficulties, 2) the transfer of somebody's own feelings and emotions to an object such as a painting. IOW, we feel their pain. Encarta Dictionary defines sympathy as... 1) capacity to share feelings, 2) the feeling or expression of pity or sorrow for the pain or distress of somebody else. IOW, we pity them, but do not identify with their pain. So, I agree with your post except that I DO believe we (sometimes, some of us) have walked in somebody else's shoes. I am loving this discussion SP & WF! Your bolded part is good, but it misses something. Empathy requires that we do this from that person's perspective. If we go back to the mountains idea, then we won't be able to accurately imagine the details and undulations from their side (unless you are right and we have walked in the same shoes! i.e previously witnessed the same view), but we are able to jump out of our own perspective and into theirs. It's not so much a question of seeing/feeling it exactly as they do - as SP says, we just can't do that - it's more the simple ability to firstly understand another perspective is possible, and then regardless of your own experience, make inferences (SP right again) based on your own knowledge of the world and people about what that perspective is looking like to them. Sometimes I believe this induces a form of empathy where we feel another's joy or pain. Sometimes I think we can empathise more coldly - e.g. I can empathise with why Nazi's treated human beings as animals, but I sure can't sympathise. This type of empathy can be an unpleasant experience. Like, yuck, I can't believe you see/feel it that way! (We get that from some of the BSs here... ) I think the relationship between experience and empathy is interesting. I am inclined to agree that people who have had similar experiences are often easily in tune with one another. But I don't think empathy requires the experience factor. But perhaps a kind of heightened empathy occurs if this is the case? Apparently, it requires a certain level of intelligence to do empathy. The lack of this ability is a key factor in certain personality disorders, isn't it?
wheelwright Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 (edited) Yep - this one is making me think as well !! :) I think I'm right in saying that the number of neuron's in the brain is of the magnitude of 100 Billion ... and the number of synapses is Trillions ... Encoded in these are the influences (most of which we are not aware of) from our past, people we know, experiences, reading, knowledge etc etc that control how we parse what's going on around and within us. So, to me, true empathy is saying not only do I understand the exact influences on you, I also understand exactly how your body's senses transmits them to you AND I also understand exactly the configuration of all those billions/trillions of neurons/synapses ... only then can you truly understand how this information is being processed deep within them ... Add in the unconscious part of the brain which is influencing mostly without the owner being aware of it then it's pretty damn difficult to truly and deeply understand our own situation ... let alone gain a true, accurate and in-depth understanding of someone elses. I'd agree it's possible to gain a broad brush appreciation of what influences they might be under .. but again it's just a guess ... since their past is likely to be influencing them pretty strongly and you don't have access to their memories to see this. Going with ww's thoughts, all one can do is "infer" from one's own experience what you think they are experiencing .. but one has to keep in mind that their brain has a differnent mapping of re-inforced connections and that hence how the information is processed will be different). If your emphasising with a MP based on the fact you know them well then it's doubly dangerous ... there's a whole side of them (they're daily minute by minute, second by second, current and past interactions with their partner /family to which you have not been fully exposed to) .. so there's that whole side of them that although you may be aware of you haven't observed in-depth to really understand. You may believe you understand that situation (perhaps through your own experiences of family) but that's making the assumption that your experience is the same as theirs ... so now one is assuming that not only are THEIR connections identical to yours but also that all the connections in all their families are identical to those in your family situation. It's just impossible due to the permutations. Which I think is what ww was saying ... one can guess at what influences they are feeling, one can interpret various cues as to their internal state based upon what their outward cues, one can extrapolate one's own experiences to guess that this might be how they are feeling and one can put all of these together to say that there is evidence that this is their state from a number of sources. But as you're not in their mind, you don't have their past, their brain structure, their dna etc you can't understand exactly how, deep down, they are processing it. All you can do is guess .. The only one who can truly understand how they are feeling is them ... because they are in their reality ... You are working with a model of it, and that model of it is incomplete and in your head ... so it's more likely to tell you about you than it is them .... Gosh my brain hurts now after trying to think that one through ... Hope it makes some sense ... not saying i'm right or wrong .. just these are my thoughts thinking it through ... be safe, and damn that ww for opening it up Chris You're blowing my mind SP! Bringing the unconscious into a discussion on empathy is practically devilish in its attempt to unravel the mysteries of the human mind. If you buy the idea of a collective unconscious, then all would be explained, eh? I'm guessing you won't be up for that though. I don't have particular convictions about this, but I think the unconscious attitudes and emotions of others are made available to us in a variety of ways. 90% of communication is non-verbal, and a very effective if not always consciously recognised form of communication it is. So perhaps this helps us empathise with those aspects. Perhaps! The last bolded bit is really interesting. I think it's very true to say that empathising tells us huge amounts about ourselves. It is by going to another country that we become more fully aware of our own cultural ticks, so to speak. However, I am not persuaded that empathy is mere projection - it's that jumping out of your own perspective bit that simply makes empathy what it is. You do get to see a lot about the other person when you empathise, but in the meanings you make of their perspective once you have viewed it, well that's all you. And don't tell me you've never done this, cos I know you are not dumb. Edited July 19, 2010 by wheelwright adding
wheelwright Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 In going through some issues with regards to my relationship with my ex-bf, and also MM, I am wrestling with something and chances are that you clever folk have been there before me, or can shine a light right through my arguments. Apart from with my close family (a whole different therapy session ) I am generally leaning towards having a high level of empathy with those I care about. [You can already see where this is headed, can't you?!] For example, my understanding and consideration of the poor childhood my ex-bf suffered, and the issues with truth (or lack of) after his dad lied to him about his mum's terminal condition, and so much more, meant that I was far, far, FAR too accepting of his behaviour towards me. I used it as excuses, I know I did. Even at the time I think I had an awareness of that. But I was fighting something in myself, trying to find a middle ground that was 'right'. My mum had always called me selfish when I was younger, and I came away from my marriage thinking she must be right. So I was super-determined to not behave in that manner in any future relationships. Fundamentally there is no reason on earth for my ex to have treated me as he did, and he also refused to get help for a very long time. And through it all I was so supportive and understanding. I was being a 'good person'. I thought. Fast-forward a bit and I am feeling so sad for MM. I understand what it is like to have your brain tell you that you must leave a bad relationship, but for fear and guilt to prevent you from behaving in a rational manner. I find it hard to be angry with him, or to find him lacking because of this. My new life started the day I moved my ex-bf in to a flat whilst he was away on a course. I hired a van (looked so funny in my work suit, sheer tights and heels hopping up in to the truck and driving off!!) and shifted him myself. It was the only way. And I had no clue until the days after that how oppressive the household had been, how I was living in fear. It didn't end there, the trauma and upset and violence, but that's when I realised what I had been living in. Who am I to judge MM? To say that he is wrong or that I should not care. I realise there is the argument of me looking after myself, and I am on the case... but that aside, I DO care and I do think he is in a very bad place. And I want to be there for him, knowing he has no one else at all. Now whether I AM there for him is a different matter, but I haven't stopped feeling for him or being able to understand why he is where he is and why he is so confused about everything. I have talked about him on the boards, but it doesn't cover everything, obviously, as to my understanding of their relationship, and I feel incredibly sad for both of them. Question is, I guess, when does it stop being a caring quality and something positive (as it is in most of my friendships) and when does it become a concern or a threat to one's emotional wellbeing? And - can one choose to not have empathy for another? I am feeling guilty SG, because we've been discussing empathy abstractly rather than answering your question. But I think some of the abstract discussion is helpful. The empathy itself you are not going to be able to stop, unless you stop thinking about MM - which sounds like it won't happen for some time. I think what you are more worried about is making excuses for your MM based on your empathy. We can all understand bad behaviour, and through empathy see exactly why someone behaved like that. I think this is always a positive quality and helps us avoid being judgemental and intolerant. When it becomes a concern would be if the behaviour we are explaining through empathy is actually despicable, but we become irrationally attached to justifying it after empathising. Perhaps because of unhealthy issues we have ourselves, or because of extreme emotional attachment. (Very few types of behaviour fall into this despicable category for me). Anyway, use your strong empathy skills to get a good understanding of the situation. But remember to see how you are affected by MM's behaviour too. You don't have to condemn him to do this. Hope you are well,
White Flower Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 SP and WW you are both amazing! I'm sure we could sit and philosophize all day long and never bore each other, but back to SG. What I know about my own experience with MM and empathy is that I really made him my project. Eventually, it wore me out. At one point I noticed he couldn't even keep up with me and HE was the subject! Just be careful. Care for him, but don't make him your project. ps I know my experience won't necessarily be your experience. Just threw that in for WW and SP.
2sure Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 SG - having empathy for another person's well being, having understanding that circumstances perhaps not of thier own control can affect the way a person is...is all good and natural. Having empathy for others CAN and should sometimes lead us to make sacrifices for them...donate money , time, a shoulder etc, to children , charities, loved ones, etc . Thats what good people, friends, loved ones DO. But this emotional sacrificing that both you and I have become comfortable with is NOT THE WAY ITS SUPPOSED TO BE.
Author Silly_Girl Posted July 19, 2010 Author Posted July 19, 2010 I am feeling guilty SG, because we've been discussing empathy abstractly rather than answering your question. But I think some of the abstract discussion is helpful. Please don't feel guilty!!! It is VERY useful for me. For sure. To look that much closely, and sometimes I don't have time to stop and think and it's something I love about these threads... the clarity that can come from a stranger sharing their experience or opinion. The empathy itself you are not going to be able to stop, unless you stop thinking about MM - which sounds like it won't happen for some time. I think what you are more worried about is making excuses for your MM based on your empathy. We can all understand bad behaviour, and through empathy see exactly why someone behaved like that. I think this is always a positive quality and helps us avoid being judgemental and intolerant. This is a lot of it, you're right. I call myself Ice Queen at work, people find me cool and straight. I can bluster for England! But when it comes to those I REALLY care about it's a whole different matter. And the lines become blurred. And what I do worry about is whether I am openly accepting behaviour I should not, because I am all caught up in my understanding, and empathy, and listening, and... forgiving too. When it becomes a concern would be if the behaviour we are explaining through empathy is actually despicable, but we become irrationally attached to justifying it after empathising. Perhaps because of unhealthy issues we have ourselves, or because of extreme emotional attachment. (Very few types of behaviour fall into this despicable category for me). I like the use of the word justify. I used to understand why my ex-bf struggled with certain basic behaviours (you know, it helps to not lie, or hit women, who'd a thunk?! ) but I NEVER, EVER thought it meant what he did to me was okay. I did try and be his counsellor, and I did hang on in there for too long, but I never made the mistake of thinking any of those things he did to me were fair or acceptable because of how he'd suffered in the past. But.... going back to MM, I don't find his behaviour towards me despicable (using your suggested word as it suits this so well). I don't condone it, and I have made it clear how unacceptable it was, to shut me out to save himself some hurt. I have called him names in a gentle way, AND in a not-so-gentle way. But I don't think his situation gives him the right to be selfish and hurt me. But I also don't (yet) feel able to ignore the background to what happened and to expel him from my life. And I think many others would. Not sure that's a useful barometer either...? Anyway, use your strong empathy skills to get a good understanding of the situation. But remember to see how you are affected by MM's behaviour too. You don't have to condemn him to do this. Hope you are well, Thanks for this WW. It's tricky, because I am affected by his behaviour. We had another long phone call today, and having kept up with this thread whilst at work I reacted a little differently than I think I otherwise would. Yes, whilst we didn't plan to talk about The Situation, we did, and I felt more able to bat things back to him. I don't think I've been overly sympathetic in the past, but this thread, and my update thread has made me much more aware of the need to keep some boundaries. I sort of visualised my space around me (this probably sounds more than a little kooky) and I tried to stay within it. I didn't shy away from any topics, but I was better able to be more pragmatic. I am not sure I have really conveyed anything in the paragraph above, but please take it as proof that the thread has definitely helped me, and I've enjoyed reading it!!! :D
Author Silly_Girl Posted July 19, 2010 Author Posted July 19, 2010 SP and WW you are both amazing! I'm sure we could sit and philosophize all day long and never bore each other, but back to SG. What I know about my own experience with MM and empathy is that I really made him my project. Eventually, it wore me out. At one point I noticed he couldn't even keep up with me and HE was the subject! Just be careful. Care for him, but don't make him your project. ps I know my experience won't necessarily be your experience. Just threw that in for WW and SP. Ha ha ha - cheeky!! You're right. I think my ex DID become a project, or more, that one of the reasons I stayed was that the investment was so much that it was hard to move away. In my update thread I said I wouldn't DO anything for 7 days, (ie. make a decision or change anything in particular) and I think that was my way of slowing/avoiding any further investment. I need to watch it. I think this place is doing me the world of good in respect of that though. It's terribly sad, and I'm pretty sure I said in a different thread 'you can't learn by someone else's mistakes', but reading some harsh experiences others have been through (oh how bittersweet ) has really made me think that much harder.
Author Silly_Girl Posted July 19, 2010 Author Posted July 19, 2010 Hi SG, Two alternative points of view to mull over ... first: Have you considered that maybe MM is in exactly the position he needs to be in life right now for his own path. That he is at an entirely natural growth part in his life cycle and that this is not, in reality, sad at all but just one of those things life throws at us and which requires us to face it as an individual in order to grow spiritually. Er... no. I really hadn't thought about it like that at all. But you know, I thought of you the other evening, SP. A good friend of mine rang me sobbing, she's having a hard time, she has some serious issues and has worked hard on herself and had a three day setback. And it reminded me of you and your elastic band post (or whatever it was, please forgive my blatant disrespect for what was a brilliant analogy), and I just talked to her about how this was her growing, and to prove the point we agreed that back then she would never have noticed this bad patch, and would never have emerged from it, etc etc. We spoke for a long time, but essentially I was seeing the visual I got from your post. So you might be right then. MM tells me he is 'enjoying' this challenge - please, please don't read that wrong, it's not fun. He's just never faced anything like this, or anything at all. Never felt an urge to, and never had to. I've been through a thousand times the 'drama' in my years as an adult than he ever has. He says he's learnt a lot about himself in the last 3 years, and then specifically since meeting me last year. He SAYS he wants to face the things he has hidden from, things he has denied, but would never have done so without my influence - well not influence but my existence has forced him to look at a hell of a lot that he never would otherwise have been bothered/able to. Your empathy is "telling" you that this is a sad situation .. but maybe it's not .. maybe he's feeling lots of emotions (sadness maybe one of them) but maybe overall, played out over the timescales of his life, where he is now is exactly where he needs to be in order to grow???? He has his own body, mind and soul and has every right to navigate himself through the growth points of life .. without someone taking away the pain from him. The pain is part of growth, gaining deeper understanding and making one consider what is really important in this world. If you take away his pain then might you well take away his chance for growth???? I definitely don't want to take away his pain :laugh: No, I don't mean that. I wish good things for him, with or without me, but I do believe he has to come to his own conclusions. And I don't want him to not grow, of course I don't. second: Have you considered if the "selfish" comment from your mother (and I assume there were more) ... your heightened empathy .. and likewise your relationship choices/behaviours are interlinked? I guess I'm hinting in the secure/insecure attachment area and wondering if you've explored this? I am trying to, and it's why I mentioned it. They are definitely interlinked. The route I am going down to address this, both with my counsellor and without, is to focus on my needs and RIGHTS (I had none in my previous relationship) to try and balance things up. I don't want to work on being selfish, or having no empathy, but I DID lose myself to my bf and step-kids and the whole world of sh** that came from being a part of that, and I am not doing that again. I will not. I am nowhere near the best person I can be when I do that. third (and maybe related to second): Have you considered if the very act of empathy (and perhaps it's associated rescuing) means that your attention is focused on others and not no you .... Hhmmmm, no I hadn't - I mean, not consciously in those words. But the NC period REALLY helped remind me of what I was, and what I'd become. I know I'd articulated on here and it's something that I am so committed to. Not sacrificing myself like that. Right now I feel I would rather walk away from MM than say goodbye to myself. (OK .. I lied there were three things, not two .. guess I'd better go to that other thread and confess !!!) :) HA HA HA!!! Not saying any of the above is correct, true or even relevant ... just that you requested challenging viewpoints and, knowing that you are able to take it in a construtive fashion, thought I would throw these in ... I know dealing with the fallout of xMW I ended worked it all through over the months and came up with some quite interesting things from my childhood which I was then able to address. Hope this helps /provokes thought ... (and that the thoughts are directed towards you and not MM !!!) Chris It does help, it really does. I sometimes find it a bit daft and maybe self-indulgent, these posts, but I really can't tell you how valuable I find the replies and how grateful I am.
Author Silly_Girl Posted July 19, 2010 Author Posted July 19, 2010 Hi SG...the dividing line, not sure although I think you and MM have a special R. Just want to say we all are selfish in some manor...funny how others can spot all of the things we are and not see it in themselves, I have more recently found that interesting. My mother called me hard-headed...that is the truth...lol, although it took one to see one:) I guess the things to look for would be: Have you lost yourself in the course of helping another? This is the only one I could think of, I've been chasing an 18mo old for a few days now:). I don't think we should ever not have empathy...one suggestion, when it gets too bad for me, I take a step back and just pray for that particular individual...more times than not I have to let go and let God:) Oh yes PIH, definitely selfish, we all are. I believe there's nothing we do that isn't selfish in some way, even if that's not what motivates us. You mention your young'un (bless!!!! 18 months, fab age!), my son and I constantly do things for one another, we're like the bleedin' Waltons, honest! But I get so much pleasure from it, it's not altruistic, it makes me feel good!!! I loved what you said about your mum. On Saturday mine said I'm stubborn and will never consider she has a point or valid opinion. I know EXACTLY where I get that from :laugh: I lost myself when my ex-bf got himself in to some bother that affected all our lives. I thought being his support was more important than anything I wanted/needed. I used to hope I would have a breakdown so that someone would wrap me up in a blanket and look after me and not make me have to go on even just one more day... So yes. And that's possibly why I am concerned here. Because clearly I am weak in this aspect, and need to use boundaries. It's good that you've been able to let go. I may come to you for some advice on that before too long PS: It's horrible when you see something in black and white and it really shouts out what a total mess you've made of something. Can't believe the person I speak about above was me. :(
jwi71 Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 The problem isn't being empathetic. Its being selectively so.
Author Silly_Girl Posted July 19, 2010 Author Posted July 19, 2010 The problem isn't being empathetic. Its being selectively so. I'm generally empathetic, but I bristle something chronic with my parents and sister. Otherwise I am the same across the board. Is that what you mean? If I was being empathetic to MM only and wasn't generally, that would signify a problem?
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