How do I approach this conversation?

[luvstarved]

My H seems to have little to no sexual interest in me. Years ago I mentioned this in counseling, that our sex life was OK but could use some spicing up. This enraged him and led to years of no sex at all. I finally said I could not live like that and we renewed sexual activity.

 

But it is worse than when I mentioned in counseling. 4 minute quickies in the morning that I am barely awake for. He doesn't look at me or touch me any more than quickly necessary. No foreplay, no afterglow. Well there is foreplay in that he sticks himself in my mouth first for about a minute in a position I have told him I am uncomfortable with but if I try to change position to something comfortable it is "what the hell are you doing?" These quickies are about 2-3 times a month.

 

When I try to talk about it, he says he is happy and so I am creating problems or that I expect porn star sex and am demanding, or if I try to ask how to please him, I am exhibiting low self-esteem, etc. I just want a loving intimate relationship in which sex is fun and comfortable. I have not gotten overweight and have been with many men and never treated like a "dud" before, but then I have always been open-minded and easy with other men. He won't let me do the same with him.

 

ANYWAY, fast forward. During the sexless phase he did look at porn but acted ashamed of it one day and "normal male behavior" about it the next. Since then, and increasingly, I have noticed him trying to find ways to look at other women that I can't bust him on. He knows I have a keylogger on computer (for sketchy teen behavior monitoring) and I have not tried to hide that from him.

 

Well HELLO facebook!

 

Started off no problems. Then some old school pal friended him and he has seemed really taken with her. She messaged him that he still looked the same and he messaged back, thanks, I think you're pretty cute, too!

since then I have noticed that off and an he keeps going back to looking at the same pictures of her over and over again.

 

We had the anniversary of day we met the other day. We were going to go back to the place we met, sit and talk about our life together there for a while, etc. Nice sweet simple celebration.

 

He got up, went to gym, came home, went on facebook then went into pool and floated out there for a while. I went out and we floated together holding hands for a while and talked about going to our meeting place later. I had to leave to take daughter to work, and minutes after I left, he went back on facebook.

 

I was sketched that my daughter was going to skip out of work so I went on keylogger to see what she had said to friends.

 

Well. First login to facebook by H he only did one thing. Went to look at this woman's photos. Second one, RIGHT AFTER holding hands in pool with me was AGAIN to look at these same photos.

 

Two hours later, he did it AGAIN! I went into a mini-funk and just kind of said you know I'd rather just hang at home and he said fine. I didn't "bust" him because I knew I was too emotional.

 

As days go by, I see him getting bolder and bolder and not only continuing to check out this woman but others too. I don't say anything until one day while I am gone a long time he spends 3 hours trawling around for women...and sends a mesg to one, remember playing spin the bottle?

 

But I don't even want to talk about the other activities. The one I want to understand is, why, on our anniversary of all days, is he spending his

day thinking of this other woman? Because despite the other looking around, she is the one he keeps going back to. And it is not that she is adding new photos or has hundreds of them. THere are maybe 30 photos on there and he keeps focusing on the same 5 or 6 that she looks particularly cute in.

 

I did tell him I saw all of this and he just denied it. At first, I was wrong, he was not looking at other women, then when I said I had the logs, you know, he said someone else must be going on his facebook, then when I said, no way, then it was he had a right and I should not be looking at his facebook (he told me before, I could go on any time, hehad nothing to hid, because I REMINDED him when he went on that I had the keylogger), then he siad that his work was demanding and he had no time for emotional upheaval at home, then he said that my lack of trust and my paranoia was very disturbing, then he said that I was accusing him of cheating, and then he said the my behavior was OUTRAGEOUS and he should not have to put up with it.

 

We left it that I would show him the logs later and let it go for the moment for family's sake. So he has acted all I-love-you and normal and not asked to see the logs (it's been 3 days since the conversation).

 

I have told him that I do not want to control him I just want to understand him. I do not blame him if he has feelings for someone else, I just don't want to be lied to or resented.

 

And I understand that nobody wants to feel like the thought police are crawling up their ass.

 

But he refuses to give me any information, and evades and lies easily to avoid any honest conversation. He swears in this case that he has not been checking out other women, that he is attracted to me,and that he does not want anyone else. He has said that checking out other women to him , esp the ones on facebook that are there particulary to BE checked out, is "skeevy" and disgusting and he cannot believe I think so

little of him.

 

So I have these logs in my hand from our anniversary. 10 am - checking out woman X for 5 minutes then logging off. 3pm - checking out woman X for 5 minutes then logging off. 530 pm - checking out woman X for 5 minutes then logging off. 9pm - checking out woman X for 5 minutes then logging off.

 

I can't really believe that he was thinking of me at all on this day where he said he was, was looking forward to going to our meeting place, and happy day for us, while doing this in the background. I also can't believe that she was not on his mind the rest of the day or that he was only thinking of her at the precise times that he was staring at these same handful of photos.

 

My feeling is that he cannot possibly come up with an explanation that isn't, I have a crush on her...can he? I want to prepare myself for any alternate explanation and trying to allow that there could be one. But I honestly can't think of one...what do you think>

[SoConfusledandHurt]

I think your husband is a dusche bag. A controlling and manipulative person. You will NEVER have a normal mature relationship with him, as he is narcassistic.

 

I was in your shoes once...I have a daughter from that time...but for her sake got the hell away from him. Thank God, because now I actually have a mature relationship with a true man, who I have learned that I can be vulnarable about my insecurities and such, and instead of deeming me crazy...he now makes me feel listened to and understood. But it takes WORK!!! And he is not willing to put in the work for you. You deserve better, and its out there...just waiting for you! I promise, you will find someone better than him!

 

Good luck!

[luvstarved]

Yeah well we had a conversation of sorts. He denied again at first, then looked at logs and claimed that all of his looking was "innocent", but went

through a lot of hoopla telling me how psychologically disturbed I am to think that he is having prurient thoughts that he swears he isn't having.

 

I told him I wasn't accusing him of anything but looking for an explanation that made sense and his behavior did not suggest innocent looking. I told him that I understood looking, but this same woman on our anniversary felt a little too anti-us and I was seeking reassurance.

 

Anyway, I did not buy his crap but ultimately let it go. I told him it made no sense but since he wanted to insist on a reality completely different from mine there wasn't any point in arguing.

 

The whole reason this stuff bothers me in the first place is because of our lack of intimacy. If our sex life and communication were in the range of normal, I admit my natural tendency toward some moderate level of jealousy would exist, but then I would feel that it WAS my problem. As it is, I feel his activity willfully cultivates feelings that undermines any

chance we have at becoming closer.

 

Which more and more is feeling like what he wants. After protesting his

innocence to the end of the conversation, I noticed that tonight he "innocently" went to a school chum's page and checked out this guys GRANDDAUGHTER'S photos cavorting with friends in bikinis. Ef this.

[Lovelybird]

I agree with last poster, your husband may not have the ability to be intimate with you at the first place no matter how hard you work on it. He has large ego and pride, I doubt he will humbly see your side of story or feelings unless some major thing happen that breaks his pride and ego.

 

Why don't you divorce him?

[luvstarved]

I don't know lovelybird. Perhaps my own pride and ego is preventing me from humbly admitting defeat. I thought he was narcissistic scared little boy ruined by his mother and that truthful loving me would help him to grow up and be capable of intimacy. I am beginning to see that maybe I thought too much of myself in believing this and in the process of trying with all of my might, have only accomplished compromising my self-esteem and giving him something else to be scared of.

 

Outside of that there are practical considerations of finances, kids, etc.

 

Last, I don't want to be alone in old age. But slowly that is starting to sound better to me.

[Lovelybird]

I see. This kind of people or many of us only grow up when we meet some major challenges and if we don't change ourselves, then we are going to face serious crisis. Maybe your husband hasn't face this kind of challenges, and you are not in a good position to help him because you need something from him and rely on him.

 

What would happen if you totally ignore him for a period of time? will he notice? does he need something from you?

[luvstarved]

Yes he seems to get very insecure if there is threat of divorce and then he loves me, etc. He will often tell me how he can't take me anymore and I will say nobody is asking you to, just leave! He might say he will and he won't apologize but will back off and be all loving.

 

He IS a scared little boy but I am a grown woman and would like to at least see some progress, such as regard for truth.

 

In practice he relies on me far more than I on him. I make more money,

handle finances, domestic issues, shopping, kids' needs for most part, talk to him about work situations which he seems to misinterpret frequently as people being out to get him...he won't even compose an email or order anything online without assistance and still can't figure out the tv remote...

 

All I want from him is to feel loved but now I think it's not possible.

[Lovelybird]

luvstarved, pardon my bluntness, you start to act like his mother. You are overfunctioning. If you overfunction, and then he doesn't need to full function at all.

 

What do you think if you let go off somethings, and leave them to his hand, even he blows them up. He may like that. You probably love to be needed by him, like a mother, make him feel he cannot function well without you, but a man deep down really wants to grow up, and be a man. Most men like to be the hero to their lover.

[luvstarved]

Wanted to add that there have been multiple counselors both MC and IC who have reached the same conclusion:

 

They believe that he means well and wants to do the right thing and loves me to the extent he is capable but is sexually a "loner" and constitutionally incapable of hearing criticism, understanding another point of view, dealing with anyone's failure to comply with his wishes, or looking at himself honestly and that he will do absolutely anything, including lying, denying, accusing the accuser and ultimately "shooting the messenger" (ie abandoning) - even his wife, that tries to shatter his false notion of himself as Captain Pureheart. And that he might even believe his own lies (jury out on that one).

 

And that my only choice is to accept this somehow and not let it get to me or leave.

 

I have been unable so far to do either so I guess I should start working on myself and try to let his behavior go...

[Lovelybird]

then your husband relys on outside validation too much, he cannot give himself acceptance fully.

 

so how were those therapies? Wasn't helpful at all?

[luvstarved]

Therapy went well until the spotlight was on him then the counselor no longer was competent and he bailed. Every time.

 

I try to get him to do things for himself and he gets angry that I am "unsupportive". He lived with parents until we married and even his

family says his relationship with mother was "sick". Guess he looks

to me to continue this relationship. There, his sex life was his own

so that's how he must like it.

 

It gets worse when I see how he is now getting our 11 year old

daughter to "help" him when I won't. I do not want the task of

being his caretaker to fall to her and if nothing else I will put

my energy into preventing that.

 

Thank you for listening. I've always thought you were very insightful

and appreciate your input.

[Lovelybird]

You welcome. I believe there is a way out of this tough situation. I wish you can find that out soon, and get peace and happiness you deserve.

 

What kind of things does he get your daughter to "help" him? I remember you said your daughter doesn't respect him, did she tell you why?

[luvstarved]

Thank you I hope you're right.

 

He just doesn't like to figure anything out or make decisions. So if I tell him to read the instructions or similar because I am busy at the moment (and sometimes aggravated by his constant requests) he will just then turn to her to get the help. How to put something together, how to work something, how to understand something he is reading. She is fortunately for him very bright and quite good at helping.

 

But I see him also treating her like the 3rd equal partner in the marriage.

Yesterday we talked about need for time alone together to help marriage. He then talked about me going on business trip with him, except it would include daughter's birthday. I said we would try to find a way to make it palatable to her for us to be away on (coming back night of) her birthday. But when he got home, instead of talking just to me to determne united way to present this, he went right to her and started talking about it. I was peeved about this, I thought WE were going to discuss. So of course, she said HE could go, but if Mom goes, she goes too and he just accepted that. And I was not even brought into the conversation until they had worked it all out. When I said I had wanted us to talk privately about it first, he just got mad and acted like I was being ridiculous.

 

His sister told me that their father battled deep depression and that she thought it was because my H and their Mom became "the couple" and Dad was treated like a difficult child. I see suggestions of this happening in this marriage and I want to protect my daughter from that. He includes her often in decisions that should be parental decisions, and often before bringing me into the conversation. She is a good kid but sometimes gets very bratty and picky when she doesn't get her way and complains about things for no real reason and it worries me.

 

Her lack of respect is from him yelling at people, talking ill of people and not allowing their point of view. Including her when it suits him. But she also likes the you-are-the-best treatment she gets from him so I think is conflicted. He has even told her she's "the boss". Ugh. And when I try to correct her on anything, he undermines me...(like being bratty, leave her alone, she's just tired, you're picking on her...!!!)

 

Right now this morning I feel like I cannot stand him and have very negative feelings toward him. I am trying to let those go, but I don't see how I can live in the same house and also ignore his behavior.

[Lovelybird]

You feel anger toward him probably you think the things he gives your daughter should be given to you, and you think he doesn't. Probably your husband thinks your daughter is the weaker one who needs him and his encouragement way more than you do. He probably thinks you are the stronger one?

 

In Asian families, this happens a lot I think. A female friend of mine is much closer to her 12 y/o son than to her husband. My male cousin literaly cannot go anywhere else without his mother. If he goes to a foreign country, he would bring his mother with him, otherwise he would cry to his mother and want to come back, this is a real story, and he is in his 30's. I don't think this is a good thing though. Usually this kind of Asian family would settle, then again, I am not sure this is a good thing either.

 

sorry for going off topic a little, so if your husband doesn't want to go to counseling, do you ever think of going there alone? for yourself? see if there are some more ways to make your life better and fulfilling? when your life become more satisfying, probably you will see the solutions more clearly?

 

Are there some good sides if you stay with him?

[SincereOnlineGuy]

How do we keep this concise and simple:

 

 

 

When women such as yourself stay with low-class men such as your husband, you may think you're hurting only yourself, but you're hurting your daughter and everyone else as well!

 

What kind of (a lack of) standards do you expect your daughter to have about the men she might date?

 

When women continue to put up with this kind of treatment, and remain with that kind of man, how in the world are things ever going to change for the better?

 

I admire the efforts you've made short of leaving, and now it is probably time to take the biggest step of all.

 

And what about your own future, and what you deserve???

 

I give you so much credit for having tried, but it's HIM... it isn't you.

[luvstarved]

lovelybird, there is some truth in what you say about some cultural family relationships. I admit I once bailed on a counselor. I went to a male (I have gone to both, and never bailed on either sex except this once) who obviously had a similar relationship with his mother and he wanted to just convince me that "italian families are like that". I had chosen a male to try to get some better perspective, but I wasn't looking for someone who EMBRACED that relationship!

 

My MIL did my H no service in treating him as she did, he's the best, he's so handsome, he's more important, everyone who upsets him is an ass, I will give him everything and ask nothing back, not even respect.

 

He was trained to believe that her behavior is what love looks like and anything less seems to feel like abuse to him.

 

Sincere online guy, I know what you're saying, it is a frustrating situation to say the least. But he is here, I am here, my daughter is here. He's made it clear that he has no real regard for the truth and has even admitted that he and his mother would lie like dogs if we ever went to divorce court.

 

I do my best to keep my daughter grounded in this scenario and she does at least understand that there is a difference in how he treats her and how I treat her and how the world at large treats her. I have talked with her about it somewhat, not wanting to trash him but not feeling right to say nothing. He dotes on her and is a good Dad in many ways, obviously cares, but his praise is excessive (so she knows it isn't always a reflection of reality) and his yelling is excessive and his spoiling is excessive.

 

I've just told her that he yells because he can't help it, he gets nervous and is impatient but that she should neither let it get to her nor allow herself to believe that it is a proper way to communicate - that this is a flaw he has and we all have flaws but she needs to consciously avoid absorbing this flaw. Fortunately, unlike with me and other people, while he yells at his blood relatives, he never calls them names or blames them - on the contrary, he excuses them for everything except what they do to displease HIM.

 

She complains too much and when she does, he will go on with her endlessly to try to make her feel better. Nothing worth eating on the restaurant menu, none of these shoes in the store are any good, I want this and nothing else, this public restroom is not good enough, on and on.

 

I don't treat her like he does. I took her bowling and she threw a fit that they only had candlepin. She moped and even had tears in her eyes and said, well, I'll stay but I'll hate it. I sat down, took off my bowling shoes, and just said, I took you out to have fun. I did not bring you out to make you miserable. I cannot control that they do not have ten pin, so there is no choice but to leave if you cannot try to make the best of it. Suddenly she wanted to stay and within minutes was having fun. He would have talked to her endlessly, please, sweetie, please...and might have even driven 20 miles farther to find ten pins.

 

At the same time, she told me that when she went bowling with him, he criticized every ball she threw and would not relent when she asked him to just let her play and so had no fun with him...!

 

She's a good kid, straight A student, etc, and sweet and caring and I

don't want to see her ruined by his legacy. So, I try to keep it real for her as best I can.

 

She does occasionally get caught in the middle and I hate when that happens...he will tell her things like "Your mother has issues", "oh, forget her, she's crazy", "Mom's always creating problems" but I know she does not buy it.

 

I don't know what I am going to do. I am seriously thinking of leaving but right now just keeping it cordial and unaffectionate, if that makes sense. I am so turned off by the lies and his shallow sexual nature (not judgmental, exactly, just turned off) that the LAST thing I want to do is have sex with him! He's doing his own thing anyway and hasn't tried anything...to my relief, for a change.

 

I was reading quotes aloud about lying and honesty...and saying tonight that I was going to work on my own needs and that I accomplished nothing but to upset myself trying to understand or negotiate with others about their behavior...

 

This seems to be making HIM insecure and seeking reassurance which I cannot sincerely offer right now. It is not my intention to punish him at all but I do refuse to just join in anymore with the pretty lies that he would prefer to live...

[Lovelybird]

My MIL did my H no service in treating him as she did, he's the best, he's so handsome, he's more important, everyone who upsets him is an ass, I will give him everything and ask nothing back, not even respect.

Any woman would feel frustrated enough only to hear this sentence. Some men are like this, I understand the frustration.

 

Have you tried to tell him about these truth? such as you, as a healthy woman would want his love, his physical love as well, you feel frustrated and unloved if he does or doesn't do certain things. When he does quickies, it is you who asked or he asked? don't accept this kind of quickies.

 

Seriously not for once he understood how you feel? Does he know that in order to have a good relationship, he has to change and adapt as well? Probably he is quite satisfied by the status quo, why would he prefer otherwise? all probably are in his terms, nothing threatens him, nothing motivates him because he doesn't want love as you do, probably the love he has is enough for him right now.....I really believe for some people--such as your husband, only crisis can motivate them, there are some people who love to grow without crisis they are self motivator, but usually most of people are lazy and full of fear

 

Is that possible that you can try to seperate with him for a while?

 

I don't treat her like he does. I took her bowling and she threw a fit that they only had candlepin. She moped and even had tears in her eyes and said, well, I'll stay but I'll hate it. I sat down, took off my bowling shoes, and just said, I took you out to have fun. I did not bring you out to make you miserable. I cannot control that they do not have ten pin, so there is no choice but to leave if you cannot try to make the best of it. Suddenly she wanted to stay and within minutes was having fun. He would have talked to her endlessly, please, sweetie, please...and might have even driven 20 miles farther to find ten pins.

You had cool approach to this scenario

 

I was reading quotes aloud about lying and honesty...and saying tonight that I was going to work on my own needs and that I accomplished nothing but to upset myself trying to understand or negotiate with others about their behavior...

 

This seems to be making HIM insecure and seeking reassurance which I cannot sincerely offer right now. It is not my intention to punish him at all but I do refuse to just join in anymore with the pretty lies that he would prefer to live...

Honesty is very important, without honesty there isn't real intimacy.

and you are right about take care of yourself, changing self is much easier than changing another person

[luvstarved]

lovelybird, thank you again for your response.

 

He IS happy with the status quo. This makes it hard, he has even suggested at times that my sexual needs are excessive and, believe it or not, that his lack of need for sex makes him in some way morally superior...ignoring the reality of using porn, facebook, fantasy and frequent masturbation for his release. When I insisted sexless phase end or divorce would follow, he said I was shallow and uncommitted to have sex be such a necessity. And he admitted that he was happy left to his own devices sexually, then later denied it when he thought it might make him look bad.

 

He contradicts himself, he hates porn and doesn't look at it, he looks at it out of harmless curiosity, he has urges to look at it that he is ashamed of, all men are like that, most men are not like that, he is not like that. Anything contradictory to what he says today was never said by him. Deny deny deny. He is not currently looking at porn, I would know, but only because he knows I would know. He thinks of other women and uses facebook, tv, etc, whatever he thinks I can't call him on, to satisfy himself.

 

If he would admit this, then we would have potential to address it in some reasonable and mutually respectful way. But he SWEARS to his moral superiority and that leaves me nowhere to go.

 

Separation is not really feasible. Financially, for one, but I have nowhere to go, and he will not go.

 

My effort, and it isn't easy, is to try to focus on myself but also to not just let him have life on his terms. If I refuse him sex, he won't really care about the sex, but he will care about the idea that I don't want him. If I do not jump when he says jump, agree with him,etc he will try to call me names or characterize me as "mean" but I will no longer argue the point with him. He will, and is already, seeking my reassurance, with hugs and I love yous and enthusiastic pecks on the lips. I am not responding as he would like right now and that is making him pick at me more but at the moment I don't care.

 

Eventually he will want to talk again. I am not going to initiate such a conversation but when it comes, my plan is to simply say that I will not speculate on why, but clearly he has no interest in knowing or fulfilling my sexual needs, and I do not want to discuss that anymore as we have a different notion of truth. I intend to simply put forth a theoretical scenario of a man who would rather have a sexless marriage, and ask his opinion on how he thinks a woman should reasonably respond to it, given that masturbation will not work for her. I am not expecting to explore the question over whether she should have an affair...just what does he think she should do in that case?

 

He will just say that if the wife weren't so damn mean the husband would want her and spew the usual litany of my faults, both real and non-existent. I will then press and say, even so, what should she reasonably do? I don't think this will go anywhere and we will just drift further apart and eventually divorce, but at least I will feel like I have maintained some integrity and self-esteem.

 

This is a quote on honesty I read to him and really like:

 

"Honesty consists of the unwillingness to lie to others; maturity, which is equally hard to attain, consists of the unwillingness to lie to oneself".--Sydney J. Harris

 

I also read him this one:

 

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it” --Adolf Hitler

 

[She's_NotInLove_w/Me]

Honestly, if I were your husband, I would have a hard time admitting to checking out the woman's pics on facebook also.

 

He was flattered by the fact that she said he looked the same as he did years ago. He said she was cute. He keeps going back and her pics and thinking about her... SO WHAT? You are fantasizing about how great things will be when he is out of your life too! Your relationship is falling apart and instead of taking responsibility for your part in it, you are trying to put it all on him...

 

He obviously has issues caused by his relationship with his Mother. Instead of trying to work on those or correct them, you just damn him and are ready to jump ship!

 

On the other side of the coin, it's painfully obvious to me he is not holding up his end the marital bargain. If I was his close personal friend, and read all of the info here, the first thing I would advise him to do is to focus all of his sexual energies on you, his wife. No more simple self gratification if he wants his marriage to work. In the bedroom, he needs to learn patience and how to build desire and excitement.

 

I get it totally - a passionate lover is what you really want - and if you could get it from your husband I bet you would be willing to work through the rest. Unfortunately he doesn't get it.

 

Personally, I would suggest slowing down a little here. Perhaps some time away from one another? Maybe a quality sex therapist? I dunno...

 

The one thing I can tell you is that as I read the progression of the thread I found that I was only hearing one side of the story, and that your family was going to be shattered over things that may be workable, and/or tolerable... In my humble opinion, planning your way out, and disconnecting from him is not the move to make at this time.

 

I am not suggesting the three of you to be unhappy for the rest of your days. I would like to suggest something game changing. The definition of insanity is to continue doing the same things and expecting different results. What about letting him read this thread from top to bottom???

[luvstarved]

SNILWM...I hear what you are saying and of course you are only hearing my side of the story. I have never said that it was ALL his fault...I do have some tendency to be jealous by nature, I do get impatient and moody at times and I do have my own legacy to overcome. His mother's over the top praise and treatment causes me at times to offer more subdued praise than I should. However, these things have been discussed in counseling at length and I have addressed them and genuinely tried to own my part. I doubt I have been perfect at that, but I have made progress. I quit talking about my **** some time ago because any flaw I would admit to would be seized upon as proof that I am the problem.

 

I have lived with 5 different men, none of whom was addicted to porn, all of whom looked at it once in a while. I admit I have never liked it, even when infrequent, but it was never a "dealbreaker". Had it been obsessive it would have been.

 

It was TEN YEARS AGO that he broke off our sex life due to my saying it could use "spicing up". It was impersonal quickies when I said what I said, then almost seven years of nothing, and impersonal quickies now and it is not enough for me. I let it go for months then would try to talk about it. THe story kept changing, we just don't have time, it'll change soon, he'd like to be celibate, sex is not an issue because

he doesn't need it, I am creating problems and should be happy that he is being "faithful" by not actually sleeping with other women, and finally, although he always said he was living the American Dream, I was just too mean to f**k.

 

We went to a sex specialist. He told him I was basically a perv and shallow for "pressuring" him into sex when I was so mean. When the counselor disagreed and exposed the more likely reality, the counselor was incompetent and he bailed.

 

The issue is not that he checks out other women once in while. The issue is that he does this INSTEAD of directing his energies toward me. I totally agree that this is what I am looking for, and he just skirts it by basically telling me I don't deserve it. When he says that, I say if you don't think I deserve it, then we should part. THEN suddenly I DO deserve it and we both need to work on it more. But, it does not happen.

 

When I bring this up, I try very carefully to word things just so and be respectful. But, he simply goes directly to putting forth the absolute worst interpretation of me and the absolute best interpretation of himself. Despite the proof of his behavior over time, he denies it all and calls me paranoid and delusional. I am not. Moreover, he characterizes his persistent cultivation of sexual stimulation outside of the marriage as non-existent, and so I am not allowed to observe it. Because the problem does not exist, he gets to be "disturbed" by my delusions and lack of trust.

 

I do distrust him. But, not because I am a nut. It is because he has repeatedly lied, boldly and without remorse, and then told me the problem is that I don't believe him.

 

I am also not insane. I have given him the benefit of the doubt, forgiven, overlooked, considered his point of view and history. I have tried to guess at things that might make a difference. Buffing up at gym, giving more praise, dressing better, acting flirty, letting it go and hoping he will come around to me. None of it mattered.

 

The bottom line is that he prefers to masturbate and won't admit it, so we can't talk about it. I do not blame him for what turns him on or not, I blame him for not giving a **** about my needs and feelings, and for blaming me for "accusing" him of something that is, in fact, going on. I blame him for happily watching me sexually starving while he is getting exactly what he wants. And then acting morally superior and sexually

"unneedy" for it.

 

As to the woman, he had been checking her out for weeks, maybe even months, and it was that he was acting all happy anniversary with me while surrounding that with repeated visits to check her out that day. THAT is when I objected. I had stayed silent until then, and actually, for days after...it was really the 3 hour marathon that caused me to say something. He insists it was just old-chums-curiosity, but had no answer as to why he was only interested in female chums, why his curiosity extended to hot nieces and granddaughters of old chums, or why some old chums were 23 year old babes from Europe inviting him to look at their nude pics.

 

Like I said, I shouldn't be putting up with this and trying not to. I have devoted the last ten years to trying all sorts of things to turn this around and I don't think that speaks to my insanity, I think it speaks to my devotion, commitment and persistence.

 

He today is sticking to his story of the pure hearted man who thinks the behavior I suggest he is engaging in is disgusting and is highly offended that I would DREAM he was even CAPABLE of it.

 

So I really do have nowhere to go. So I expect that is where I will go.

[2sure]

The whole reason this stuff bothers me in the first place is because of our lack of intimacy. If our sex life and communication were in the range of normal, I admit my natural tendency toward some moderate level of jealousy would exist, but then I would feel that it WAS my problem. As it is, I feel his activity willfully cultivates feelings that undermines any

chance we have at becoming closer.

 

Yep. Thats it. You completely get it and you are correct.

Worse, unless he:

Agrees there is a problem

Changes his behavior

Re-establishes intimacy with you

 

Nothing is going to change, his behavior will probably escalate. Oh yeah - and he will blame you for it.

 

Ef this is right

[luvstarved]

Thank you 2 sure...

 

I want to say in general that my persistence, etc has very much been driven by my genuine and apparently naive belief that anyone could eventually be brought to compassion and reason.

 

Much of my reason for staying is my thinking that if he only UNDERSTOOD what I really want and how I really feel, all masks would be removed and life would be grand.

 

In that sense, I believe his assessment of me as delusional might well have hit its mark.

[2sure]

OMG. I know exactly what you are talking about. I used to try to explain to my H why what he was doing was wrong and I actually believed that if he knew how much it bothered me he would change. I had the same conversations with him in 20 different ways thinking he must not have understood me, that my approach needed to be different.

 

He wasnt an idiot. He understood. He just didnt care enough. In fact, to this day sometimes I think only that he didnt care enough to process it, to really think about what I said, felt, what he was doing. I think, naively really, that if he had bothered to process it, THEN he would have changed. But you know - it all comes down to he doesn care enough. He cares more about what he wants than what you need.

 

Now that you have withdrawn, his response is typical for this type of person. You have to ask yourself - does he love me or does he want me? There is a difference.

[luvstarved]

2sure, yes that's it..just not enough care. When I try to talk, he tells me his job is emotionally demanding (mostly bull****) and he does not have energy for this kind of upheaval. Yet, yesterday, when there was some email back and forth about who started an altercation at his baseball league game, he was ready to devote the whole evening to calling everyone on the team to hash it out. He asked me, should I call this one, should I call that one? I told him that I thought that to do so would be putting stress on himself and expending energy that he should save for his emotionally demanding job.

 

As to loving, wanting, I don't know if he loves me. I know he doesn't "want" me. I believe the primary thing is that he needs me, to handle the nuts and bolts of life and take care of things that he doesn't want to. And even perhaps to prop up his false self-image as the happily married man and deflect any attentions from other women, who he'd probably also rather imagine than actually interact with. He probably knows by now that we all come with "emotional bulls**t" and aren't really worth the trouble.