Not looking to debate my questions... but rather responses to a specific question

[Ellin]

You are getting perilously close to "bitter OW because he didnt choose her" territory.

 

You assume WAY too much. Its a bad habit.

 

I said nothing about your MM reconciling. Not one word. You assumed that my telling you to walk was tantamount to such. It wasn't. Like NJ, I don't care WHAT he does.

 

For him, or any to know independence, they must be...uh, independent. Away from those actors defining and shaping their actions. See, we agree.

What you don't like is that YOU must go too - because independence is free of all actors. You included - otherwise, he is still being affected and cannot "freely choose". That wasn't so hard now was it?

 

And then we hit a snag don't we MOTF? Because what you want to know is NOT what you asked. You want to know how to get him out of their INFLUENCE and solely under yours. This isn't about free will and independent thought at all.

 

Ohh...now you make more sense. No wonder you didn't like what I had to say (even though, given your original question, we agree). No wonder you immediately go on the offensive about "reconciling at all costs"...where did you read that in my post?

LOL!!!! Now she makes more sense? YOU said it jwi71.... not her....

[SidLyon]

...

 

So can you really understand that self independence if you are still physically in the family home, haven't own up to the important people ( parent's, co-workers in his case, etc)?

 

What does it take to really know which road to take? I personally believe time alone, independence and finding yourself is the only answer..... but very interest if others hold the view that many MC's hold and that is "don't leave the house"

 

I will try to go back to the original question...

 

First of all I don't consider it necessary for a person to be living alone in order to be able to make their own "independent" decisions. Nor do I consider decisions made without considering all factors, including other people, to be necessarily the most correct decision. So I totally disagree with you that it is the "only answer".

 

People will naturally try to influence another person's decision especially when it can have major impact on the person trying to influence. This applies to his wife, family and to you too. In my view he should take all these impacts into account.

 

You are giving the impression from your manner and tone of posting that you don't want him to be influenced by anyone but you, and that you feel that if he is away from his other influences then he will be more likely to make a decision which benefits you.

 

My take again, is that this is not a valid way for anyone to make a decision that may impact so many people adversely. He needs to consider all factors. Like many MM in his situation he is probably going to make the decision that suits him best. Typically such a decision does not favour leaving for the OW, especially as he loves his wife and family.

 

Your posts give the impression that you are all behaving like adults and that you and his wife have had very civilised communications about all this. What exactly have you and she discussed? Maybe that could assist other LS posters in understanding what is going on and why his BW is so accepting of ongoing contact.

 

One thing in your "favour" is it sounds like his wife is not a typical BW who usually gives, and then follows through on an ultimatum. Are you sure she knows about his ongoing contact with you? Or are you relying on him telling you she knows about the ongoing contact between you and MM? If you are relying on his version of events about her reactions, I suggest you discuss it with her like the adult you are.

[Myowntwofeet]

I will try to go back to the original question...

 

First of all I don't consider it necessary for a person to be living alone in order to be able to make their own "independent" decisions. Nor do I consider decisions made without considering all factors, including other people, to be necessarily the most correct decision. So I totally disagree with you that it is the "only answer".

 

People will naturally try to influence another person's decision especially when it can have major impact on the person trying to influence. This applies to his wife, family and to you too. In my view he should take all these impacts into account.

 

You are giving the impression from your manner and tone of posting that you don't want him to be influenced by anyone but you, and that you feel that if he is away from his other influences then he will be more likely to make a decision which benefits you.

 

My take again, is that this is not a valid way for anyone to make a decision that may impact so many people adversely. He needs to consider all factors. Like many MM in his situation he is probably going to make the decision that suits him best. Typically such a decision does not favour leaving for the OW, especially as he loves his wife and family.

 

Your posts give the impression that you are all behaving like adults and that you and his wife have had very civilised communications about all this. What exactly have you and she discussed? Maybe that could assist other LS posters in understanding what is going on and why his BW is so accepting of ongoing contact.

 

One thing in your "favour" is it sounds like his wife is not a typical BW who usually gives, and then follows through on an ultimatum. Are you sure she knows about his ongoing contact with you? Or are you relying on him telling you she knows about the ongoing contact between you and MM? If you are relying on his version of events about her reactions, I suggest you discuss it with her like the adult you are.

 

Hi Syd

 

Thanks. I guess you can take a person's tone to be many things... I am concerned for him for several reasons, and as I said... I would be if he was only a friend...however - you are correct, I also have a stake in it.

 

I think everyone is assuming I would just run back.... that really isn't true. The new communication has opened up many things, some very positive but what has happened can't be swept under the rug either. So, whether you choose to believe me or not, I know 100% that I really do want to see him make the best decision for himself.

 

Regarding his wife. When MM came back saying he had told both her and his therapist that we were no longer NC ( it was the only way I would have any communication) I did email his wife, politely to confirm.

 

She is insecure regarding it, but she is also dealing with his choice to re-engage in communication with the person she thinks can assist her most - Her IC.

 

It really isn't for me to assume why she chooses to stay but currently she does.

 

He openly provided his IC's number and also said he had told him that if I called to confirm he was aware that he was comfortable with his IC telling me. He also asked me to go see his IC (he actually would still like me to) however I have my own and I have declined as that seemed odd to me.

 

I openly communicate with him on his actual work email and have not hid any communication, nor will I. We meet in public, at restaurants and have actually taken several walks at a very public seawall that would be far too risky if he was lying to anyone.

 

I can only assume her thoughts are .... She will work on what she can/can't deal with - and will do just that. If she finds her comfort level decreasing, I would like to think she will discuss that with him. I have been very clear - I am not and will not re-invest in a relationship with him as the Other Women...will not happen and I have put boundaries in place.

 

To be very honest, we are working through our own issues with each others actions regarding DDay and contrary to what some may believe.... We talk very little about her.

 

We are actually talking more about us and truth.... his current IC challenges as he is just starting to walk through some very significant childhood issues.

 

It is bizarre, I don't deny that - but we are all being open and honest.

[SidLyon]

Hi Syd

 

...Regarding his wife. When MM came back saying he had told both her and his therapist that we were no longer NC ( it was the only way I would have any communication) I did email his wife, politely to confirm.

 

She is insecure regarding it, but she is also dealing with his choice to re-engage in communication with the person she thinks can assist her most - Her IC.

 

It really isn't for me to assume why she chooses to stay but currently she does.

 

He openly provided his IC's number and also said he had told him that if I called to confirm he was aware that he was comfortable with his IC telling me. He also asked me to go see his IC (he actually would still like me to) however I have my own and I have declined as that seemed odd to me.

 

I openly communicate with him on his actual work email and have not hid any communication, nor will I. We meet in public, at restaurants and have actually taken several walks at a very public seawall that would be far too risky if he was lying to anyone.

 

I can only assume her thoughts are .... She will work on what she can/can't deal with - and will do just that. If she finds her comfort level decreasing, I would like to think she will discuss that with him. I have been very clear - I am not and will not re-invest in a relationship with him as the Other Women...will not happen and I have put boundaries in place.

 

...

 

It is bizarre, I don't deny that - but we are all being open and honest.

 

You have said his W is insecure with his ongoing contact with you - it's not apparent from what you say that she is truly aware of the amount and degree of contact between you. It also seems that you are in no position to confirm with her exactly how open and honest he is being with her or her ongoing reactions to it.

 

The fact that his work colleagues know (don't they always) and his IC knows says nothing about her knowledge. I suspect he is still gaslighting her and maybe hiding it from you as well.

 

It reminds me of of FA's situation where FA believes his wife knows or ought to know, but when pressed she admits that he lies to his wife.

 

As a fBW I know how much we want to believe our Hs when they tell us that contact with the OW is minimal or not happening. It's often something that makes sense of the fact that our Hs seem to want to stay with us after d-day.

[Myowntwofeet]

You have said his W is insecure with his ongoing contact with you - it's not apparent from what you say that she is truly aware of the amount and degree of contact between you. It also seems that you are in no position to confirm with her exactly how open and honest he is being with her or her ongoing reactions to it.

 

The fact that his work colleagues know (don't they always) and his IC knows says nothing about her knowledge. I suspect he is still gaslighting her and maybe hiding it from you as well.

 

It reminds me of of FA's situation where FA believes his wife knows or ought to know, but when pressed she admits that he lies to his wife.

 

As a fBW I know how much we want to believe our Hs when they tell us that contact with the OW is minimal or not happening. It's often something that makes sense of the fact that our Hs seem to want to stay with us after d-day.

 

Obviously there is no concrete way of knowing. I did email her personally, and I am aware that his IC is fully aware - in fact, they have discussed conversions MM and I had.

 

IF he is in fact gas lighting and not being honest about the extent... and yes, it has been extensive with 3 or 4 hour dinners/chats in the last 4 or 5 weeks.... there is not much I am prepared to do.

 

I would find it rather odd and if that is the case... perhaps he is setting himself up? We are very open ( and yes we were during the A as well) however I would *think that if he is lying and she was to find out about dinners,etc.... it would be her deal breaker ( again...assuming).

 

What can I do Syd? We are working on rebuilding trust between each other as well. I have done what I can to ensure she knows.....I have to give him at least the benefit of the doubt.

 

He has been honest regarding her insecurities, honest in admitting that our reconnect may only benefit us and honest about him wanting to "be here/talk" because HE wants to be here.

 

They are baby steps....towards what? Only time will tell.

[BB07]

Myowntwofeet, I've been following your thread.

 

I have a few things to say and you might not like them.

 

You are still having an EA with your MM, you can call it anything you like, but it's still an EA because you are very involved, you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. I think you need to step away.....all the way back. It's not fair to anyone......yourself, the MM nor the BS. If this woman (the BS loves him and wants to save her marriage, your presence in their life has got to be hell for her.

 

You can still work on your issues, he can still work on his and the BS can work on hers and if they (MM and BS) decide to work on their marriage, then that is all the more reason you need to back up.

 

You being this close to him and still having the EA with him will NOT help him get clarity or help him sort through whatever it is he needs to sort through. You are a crutch to him at this point.

 

Make him face it alone......and face your own stuff alone. What you are doing is not fair.........to anyone.

 

If he truly loves you and he has the guts to prove it to you.....he will come back to you, you've just got to turn loose in order to find out. When all is said and done.......you wouldn't want him if he is a gutless liar would you?

 

Hugs....

[Myowntwofeet]

Myowntwofeet, I've been following your thread.

 

I have a few things to say and you might not like them.

 

You are still having an EA with your MM, you can call it anything you like, but it's still an EA because you are very involved, you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. I think you need to step away.....all the way back. It's not fair to anyone......yourself, the MM nor the BS. If this woman (the BS loves him and wants to save her marriage, your presence in their life has got to be hell for her.

 

You can still work on your issues, he can still work on his and the BS can work on hers and if they (MM and BS) decide to work on their marriage, then that is all the more reason you need to back up.

 

You being this close to him and still having the EA with him will NOT help him get clarity or help him sort through whatever it is he needs to sort through. You are a crutch to him at this point.

 

Make him face it alone......and face your own stuff alone. What you are doing is not fair.........to anyone.

 

If he truly loves you and he has the guts to prove it to you.....he will come back to you, you've just got to turn loose in order to find out. When all is said and done.......you wouldn't want him if he is a gutless liar would you?

 

Hugs....

 

Hi BB

 

I am fine with your thoughts. Again, if I led anyone to believe I was looking for "what I should do" I apologize - I really am not.

 

I am comfortable with the decisions we have recently made, and for the time being will be focusing on myself, my work and my own life WHILE staying in touch with MM.

 

I realize many believe it is still and EA... but fundamentally, I really don't believe what many do when it comes to fog, no contact, and EA's.

 

If that were the case, I would be having a whole lot of EA's...even down to some Ex's that I am still friends with.

 

We are not crossing boundaries, we are not whispering I love you's or any such thing... and in fact - it has not been a pleasant ride so if anyone thinks everything has been rosey and pink and MM is getting his ego feed....wrong. He worked he ass off just for me to consider re-engaging in conversation.

 

It's important... the core reality has not changed. I love him, I do enjoy his friendship and I am very hopeful that we will find a new relationship that is far more healthy than the previous with each other..... whether they successfully reconcile or not.

 

Perhaps that is wrong to many...and perhaps I will be here in a year saying things didn't work out at all, in any capacity....

 

At the moment, we are here by CHOICE, she stays by CHOICE and no one is having any monkey sex or living large.

 

What tomorrow brings, no one knows... but I do know I will cross that bridge when I get to it.

[Ellin]

Hi BB

 

I am fine with your thoughts. Again, if I led anyone to believe I was looking for "what I should do" I apologize - I really am not.

 

 

I really don't think you did, you made it clear repeatedly and even stated it in the title of your thread... This is one of the downsides of LS..

[silverplanets]

Hi BB

 

...

I am comfortable with the decisions we have recently made, and for the time being will be focusing on myself, my work and my own life WHILE staying in touch with MM.

 

....

 

I'd be tempted to check within myself to really clarify that I wasn't using being in touch with him as a crutch/support for any of the focusing on myself, my work and my life

 

Facing one's self, life and work entirely alone is differnet to facing it alone but in the knowledge that there IS someone.

 

I know from experience that facing life without xMW in it right now was differnet from facing life in the knowledge that xMW was rejected by me for good.

 

No critiscism/judgement intended/implied ... just floating a thought ...

 

Be safe

Chris

[Owl]

I really don't think you did, you made it clear repeatedly and even stated it in the title of your thread... This is one of the downsides of LS..

 

You're absolutely right.

 

Most people tend to want to "take action" when they see a trainwreck about to occur. (not meant as an insult to you, MOTF)

 

And I'm about the most "do it now, take action" advice giver here. These kinds of threads where someone wants to post their opinion but not expect people to provide feedback are the hardest for a lot of us to deal with...myself included.

 

Its not a "drawback of LS"...it's human nature.

[BB07]

You're absolutely right.

 

Most people tend to want to "take action" when they see a trainwreck about to occur. (not meant as an insult to you, MOTF)

 

And I'm about the most "do it now, take action" advice giver here. These kinds of threads where someone wants to post their opinion but not expect people to provide feedback are the hardest for a lot of us to deal with...myself included.

 

Its not a "drawback of LS"...it's human nature.

 

 

I guess I'm going to be a little harsher......, when someone asks for opinions/advice but they only want it kept to a certain aspect, it's because they only want to hear what they want to hear.

[Ellin]

I guess I'm going to be a little harsher......, when someone asks for opinions/advice but they only want it kept to a certain aspect, it's because they only want to hear what they want to hear.

 

I think you oversimplify it. She wants to talk about a specific issue within her situation. This is what she's focusing on right now. This is what she feels she needs to clarify for herself.

 

This is what she's asking for opinions about.

 

What's wrong with that?

 

This is what she's asking help with! She's happy with the rest of her situation for the time being. What's wrong with that and why can't people respect that?

 

If you don't have anything to say about the issue she wants to talk about, you don't have to reply!

 

You think she needs a different kind of help, but she believes differently, and after all, this is HER life, HER feelings and while people looking from "outside" may see something that she doesn't see, on the other hand all you have is her posts on the web, you don't even know her personally, let alone knowing better what she wants or needs than she does herself.

 

What is this need for this "forced" helping?

[Owl]

 

What is this need for this "forced" helping?

 

I dunno...but I got this mental picture of all the times I've seen animals trapped in bad situations throughout my life. Reminded me of when I saw a cat caught on a fishhook, fighting to get away. Fought like heck while we all tried to help....got scratched up big time for my efforts. Cat never thanked me for helping either. Guess I should have followed the cat's wishes and left it there then.

 

Nope...the cat couldn't see at the time that we were helping.

 

Of course...people are much smarter, right?

[BB07]

I think you oversimplify it. She wants to talk about a specific issue within her situation. This is what she's focusing on right now. This is what she feels she needs to clarify for herself.

 

This is what she's asking for opinions about.

 

What's wrong with that?

 

This is what she's asking help with! She's happy with the rest of her situation for the time being. What's wrong with that and why can't people respect that?

 

If you don't have anything to say about the issue she wants to talk about, you don't have to reply!

 

You think she needs a different kind of help, but she believes differently, and after all, this is HER life, HER feelings and while people looking from "outside" may see something that she doesn't see, on the other hand all you have is her posts on the web, you don't even know her personally, let alone knowing better what she wants or needs than she does herself.

 

What is this need for this "forced" helping?

 

Ellin, nothing is forced here. She can take what she wants and discard the rest, simple as that. To start a thread with limits on what advice she wants is never going to work around here and it does lead to my opinion....of thinking she only wants to hear what she wants to hear.

 

 

Heck no.....I don't know her and it's her life, her choices, but if you post on a public forum and put it out there, what else can you expect other than to get a lot of varied opinions. It's part of the deal.

 

Also......you didn't have to reply to me to tell me how unwanted and unwelcome my 2 cents is, so.....tit for tat I suppose.

[crazycatlady]

MOTF - maybe its time to actually have a sit down chat with the wife. It might be hard and unpleasant, but it might be enlightening to both of you. Obvious both of you have some good characteristics because he loves you both and he can't let go of either of you.

 

I doubt he will ever make a choice because both of you are his choice. I don't think being alone will bring him any peace inwhich to make a decision. He's just going to go back and forth.

 

CCL

[Myowntwofeet]

Everyone play nice.

 

I don't think I said I was offended by either (owl or BB) thoughts.... but I do want to make sure that you know, for NOW - I am happy with the outcome.

 

Ellin is right - no one here can possibly know what we have been through this past year. I was very much alone for at least 8 months of the year that we have been a part - I DO know the feeling of abandonment, fear, rejection, etc.

 

I also know ME. People can argue that I suppose....but it won't change as I am old (er) and there are somethings I actually like about myself.

 

I have NEVER ( not even in the thick of it) believed in many things that most here believe. I don't know it, but I just don't

 

Fog - A word thrown around like popcorn. So ridiculous to me - seriously! If we date someone and we love them....things don't work out, we move on.... a year later we don't say ... " oh, it was FOG". The feeling subside because of lack of contact, lack of "watering".... not because they were not real to begin with. It is hilarious to me the way some are proud that their WS was in "fog".....

 

No Contact - Big one... we did it..... we did it FORCED by his MC/IC.... and it was destructive for both. Both felt we were sent to our "rooms". We are grown adults - if our relationship is going to end - then it is up to us to end it.... NOT others.

 

We danced with that a lot...but we both agree NC was horrid and didn't help a damn thing except give us a thousand reasons to WANT to talk, clear the air, etc.

 

Those are the two big ones.....and I am not knocking those who believe in it... I simply don't and more importantly will not treat important people in my life in such a manner - never again.

 

We had NO right to get involved.... but WE DID. We did love each other, still do and whether people like it or not, we are entitled to respect ( both).

 

I was very clear that communication will only be with the wife's knowledge... she is also entitled to know and be shown respect ( there will be NO "affair") ever again.

 

I can only sumize that she as well wants to know he is not talking to me by choice and that our relationship is over by CHOICE. There is no other way she will ever know this wasn't simply because it was easier to stay.

 

If things change, we will deal with it - rationally like adults. If they reconcile, I will be the first one to be genuinly happy for him... but I also won't go through my life "wondering"... life is too damn short to walk to everyone elses music.

 

We will never hurt others like we have- never again. If we are meant, if that is in the cards - we will walk through it like adults. If we are not, as with every other relationship I have had - we will find our friendship and enjoy that.

 

 

So, I have no problem with someone telling me what they think.....but understand that I have done a tremendous amount of work to get here.... that work does not stop and this is bar none the hardest thing I have had to work through.

 

At this time, I am more than happy with the choices, I am actually proud of us for treating each other with the respect we deserve ( took long enough) and for being capable of being honorable and not hopping into bed or carrying on "plans or affections" behind his wife's back.

[fooled once]

Lots of fantastic advice given...

Nora, Owl, Jwl, BB07, jj, silverplants - fantastic advice.

 

It is evident from all of us reading this that the OP wants the MM.

 

It is evident she wants him to leave his marriage.

 

It is also clear to at least me that the wife is NOT aware of what is going on. So what if the MM had dinner with you - he could easily have told his wife that it was with a work collegue. Same with the walk -- unless you were holding hands and kissing ... which you imply is NOT going on since you are 'just friends'.

 

Yes, friends want the best for their friend, but they also don't have a stake in their friends decision, as you plainly have stated you have.

 

Sorry, but I don't buy the whole "If he says with his wife, that's fine by me, I just want him happy" lines. IF that was the case, back off and tell him to find you when he is divorced. Who cares if he is going to counseling -- this sounds so much like the MM White Flower was involved with -- this guy who needed a counselor to tell him what to do.

 

He is staying married. He has made that clear. If you are okay being the OW, then go for it. But don't expect more. You have made it clear you will hang around and wait for him...he must be in heaven. He knows it won't be long before he gets you back into bed. You can call that love if you want; I call it greed and lust.

 

IF he comes to you divorced and asking to date you, then I call it love. But since he isn't even willing to separate from his wife then that alone is a huge example of where his priorities lie.

 

But, that's right, you aren't asking for advice on your situation - just on independence.

 

You are dependent on him, He is dependent on the attention you give him. He loves his wife and he shares a life with her. He is going to counseling .... for some reason .... and his wife is in the dark that you are again engaging in an affair with her husband because when you did email her, he minimized you and your affair to her. He did his best to win her over and because of their history and the trust they had built up, she forgave him.

 

Why don't the 3 of you sit down and discuss this situation? That will be the eye opening conversation I think

[Myowntwofeet]

MOTF - maybe its time to actually have a sit down chat with the wife. It might be hard and unpleasant, but it might be enlightening to both of you. Obvious both of you have some good characteristics because he loves you both and he can't let go of either of you.

 

I doubt he will ever make a choice because both of you are his choice. I don't think being alone will bring him any peace inwhich to make a decision. He's just going to go back and forth.

 

CCL

 

Hi CCL

 

I would have no problem sitting with her and I have emailed her twice throughout this. That is not her personality, she was not comfortable with the small amount of communication and I would put her in a very uncomfortable situation to ask her to sit down.

 

She does know I am more than open to it, and she is more than welcome to contact me at anytime.

 

I don't see it happening anytime soon, but she does clearly know I would be willing to talk.

[Myowntwofeet]

Lots of fantastic advice given...

Nora, Owl, Jwl, BB07, jj, silverplants - fantastic advice.

 

It is evident from all of us reading this that the OP wants the MM.

 

It is evident she wants him to leave his marriage.

 

It is also clear to at least me that the wife is NOT aware of what is going on. So what if the MM had dinner with you - he could easily have told his wife that it was with a work collegue. Same with the walk -- unless you were holding hands and kissing ... which you imply is NOT going on since you are 'just friends'.

 

Yes, friends want the best for their friend, but they also don't have a stake in their friends decision, as you plainly have stated you have.

 

Sorry, but I don't buy the whole "If he says with his wife, that's fine by me, I just want him happy" lines. IF that was the case, back off and tell him to find you when he is divorced. Who cares if he is going to counseling -- this sounds so much like the MM White Flower was involved with -- this guy who needed a counselor to tell him what to do.

 

He is staying married. He has made that clear. If you are okay being the OW, then go for it. But don't expect more. You have made it clear you will hang around and wait for him...he must be in heaven. He knows it won't be long before he gets you back into bed. You can call that love if you want; I call it greed and lust.

 

IF he comes to you divorced and asking to date you, then I call it love. But since he isn't even willing to separate from his wife then that alone is a huge example of where his priorities lie.

 

But, that's right, you aren't asking for advice on your situation - just on independence.

 

You are dependent on him, He is dependent on the attention you give him. He loves his wife and he shares a life with her. He is going to counseling .... for some reason .... and his wife is in the dark that you are again engaging in an affair with her husband because when you did email her, he minimized you and your affair to her. He did his best to win her over and because of their history and the trust they had built up, she forgave him.

 

Why don't the 3 of you sit down and discuss this situation? That will be the eye opening conversation I think

 

 

You know what, there are few that really irk me here... but fooled you are certainly one of them.

 

Not OWL, not BB, not NJ, Silk, Syd... so don't make it about "all who oppose" as I can see you typing it away.

 

I find it utterly amazing how much time you spend spewing your VERY specific thoughts ( they don't change much no matter who you are replying to). And I have always thought you strike me as a BS.... in fact very much so!

 

I don't care what you think or don't think... to be very honest. It takes a fairly opened mind to understand wanting what is best for someone while admitting you also have a stake in it (haven't denied that).

 

I would really appreciate it if you would NOT put words in my mouth and more importantly write as if you actually know my THOUGHTS.

 

You do not.. you are determined to see what YOU want to see, what YOU believe.

 

Nothing productive, nothing beneficial to that and to be honest.... even if valuable advice, the way it is delivered - I certainly wouldn't give it a second glance.

[Myowntwofeet]

 

His wife is in the dark that you are again engaging in an affair with her husband because when you did email her, he minimized you and your affair to her. He did his best to win her over and because of their history and the trust they had built up, she forgave him.

 

 

Fooled, seriously - you need to step away.

 

WHO are you to tell me what we do and do not know? Got a camera hidden here:rolleyes:

 

You must have clearly amazing abilities... would you like her number? When she tells you she knows, tells you she knows her husband is in love with both of us....

 

Perhaps you can spew some more.

[2sure]

Myowntwofeet -

 

Dont get so upset, think about this for a minute or two:

 

You have hindsight right, at least in some experiences and scenarios?

And you no doubt have used it when you have looked back at certain situations and said to yourself : WTF was I thinking???

 

And you know, that no matter how hard you try to pass on what you have learned to someone else...you cant. Its frustrating.

Many of the "situations" , conversations, ideas, scenarios, perspectives brought here into the infidelity/OW forums have been lived play by play. As unique as we each are, as unique as each relationship IS...they are also that similar. The patterns and conversations of affairs and infidelity , are amazingly (to me) alike.

 

So - sometimes what feels like criticism, regardless of the approach, is just someone else trying to give you their hindsight - urgently. lol.

And my own experience here has taught me...that as time has gone on and my perspective/life changed...the people that I most didnt care for...some of them were right.

 

There are lot of the WTF moments here

[GreenEyedLady]

MOTF:

 

You say that you are happy with the ways things are.

 

I don't understand how you can be happy that he loves another woman.

 

If your question is how does he become independent, I would have to ask what does independent mean to you?

 

One can be independent and still be in a R and even married. Why should someone have to live alone to be independent? Also, he has to want to be less dependent on his W.

 

But really, I don't think independence is the issue. This man you are in love with is not leaving. Men do not leave their W's when they love them. That just doesn't make sense. The only thing that there is a possibility of is him growing more attached to you and falling out of love with his W. But as long as he claims to love her, he's staying where he is. Out of love. (Although, his W could leave him. I can't see anyone putting up with this.)

 

Instead you need to focus on you and what you want to happen. If you want to stay in the R, you'll have to find acceptance of the way things are and have realistic expectations of the future. I'm not saying settle in the least but realize there are limitations. And if you're seeing him only one time a week for a short while, that's tough, on you.

 

Also, don't talk exclusively about the R and whether he's leaving etc. If you're in a R, you have to cultivate it. Don't focus on his life at home while you're together. He has a counselor and you have a counselor.

 

I hope this helps a little.

 

GEL

[pureinheart]

No Contact - Big one... we did it..... we did it FORCED by his MC/IC.... and it was destructive for both. Both felt we were sent to our "rooms". We are grown adults - if our relationship is going to end - then it is up to us to end it.... NOT others.

 

We danced with that a lot...but we both agree NC was horrid and didn't help a damn thing except give us a thousand reasons to WANT to talk, clear the air, etc.

 

 

When I read the first paragraph my thought was that we can spend a lot of energy running from something, that in reality we're running right into it...

[BB07]

Myowntwofeet -

 

Dont get so upset, think about this for a minute or two:

 

You have hindsight right, at least in some experiences and scenarios?

And you no doubt have used it when you have looked back at certain situations and said to yourself : WTF was I thinking???

 

And you know, that no matter how hard you try to pass on what you have learned to someone else...you cant. Its frustrating.

Many of the "situations" , conversations, ideas, scenarios, perspectives brought here into the infidelity/OW forums have been lived play by play. As unique as we each are, as unique as each relationship IS...they are also that similar. The patterns and conversations of affairs and infidelity , are amazingly (to me) alike.

 

So - sometimes what feels like criticism, regardless of the approach, is just someone else trying to give you their hindsight - urgently. lol.

And my own experience here has taught me...that as time has gone on and my perspective/life changed...the people that I most didnt care for...some of them were right.

 

There are lot of the WTF moments here

 

Really great post!

 

FO.....is harsh with her words sometimes, she pissed me off when I first came here more than once. She means well......and just like everyone else, she has her experiences and past to draw on in where she comes from in her advice.

 

There isn't anyone here who speaks their mind, who we agree with 100% of the time and the person's response is not always accurate nor does it always hit the nail on the head........but FO says what she says, cause she really cares. Cut her some slack.

[BB07]

Hi CCL

 

I would have no problem sitting with her and I have emailed her twice throughout this. That is not her personality, she was not comfortable with the small amount of communication and I would put her in a very uncomfortable situation to ask her to sit down.

 

She does know I am more than open to it, and she is more than welcome to contact me at anytime.

 

I don't see it happening anytime soon, but she does clearly know I would be willing to talk.

 

 

I know I'm bringing my recent experiences into it, when I say some of the things I say lately. I can't help that nor should I apologize for it, it's just where I'm at at the moment. Which by the way....is where we all come from to a great degree.

 

I still feel really bad for the BS in your situation and I think if you both could talk you would get your eyes opened and a lot of understanding. Sit down....Woman to Woman...who happen to love the same man and forget the BS, just a frank honest discussion. You say you've let her know that you are open to it, but imagine how hard it is for her to trust you, to open herself up to you. It's a difficult situation for both of you, but you need to consider that the story he painted of her, is most likely not accurate. Oh and even though he probably didn't paint her as being the evil witch of the west, his subtle suggestions about her faults probably are the result of him twisting it to his liking. Don't think he wouldn't do that......he would and he did. He had to justify the affair in his own head........remember.

 

You would have a lot more clarity if you and her would be able to do this.

 

Hugs......