Not looking to debate my questions... but rather responses to a specific question

[Myowntwofeet]

fBS here....

 

Well, I too disagree with the MC.

 

Who wants to be anyone's default choice, fercryin'outloud?

 

I think living at home does tend to preserve the marriage, and maybe with total independence from each other, either he or she or both, will decide it isn't worth it or it is.

 

Meanwhile, you are still in a wait and see position until some decision is made.

 

So instead of being in a holding pattern, make sure you are really living your life! Fill it to the brim!

 

What is often not realized in a triangle is that it may be the BS who decides the marriage as it stands is no longer worth it.

 

Or you might decide you no longer want to wait around.

 

I think he should move out and be alone. It often forces clarity of thinking, IMHO.

 

 

Thanks spark, and I do agree 100% - they are not in MC because their initial MC counselor asked them to separate into individual IC

 

There comes a time when you have to take care of you ( and believe it or not I am) but I also feel with each of us being in IC. I can't ask for more than honesty and IC (for all).....

 

While he is working out his issues ( many as he never dealt with anything prior - and I do recognize how hard it is when you are first hit with counseling) I am also working on resurfaced issues. I am taking care of me.

[Myowntwofeet]

I agree with you OP. Being alone means being alone. He should take time for himself to reflect on what he really wants without carrying on an R with either woman (if he's so torn).

 

I think it's important for our self esteem and sense of self worth to be able to take care of ourselves. In part, for me, this means being able to live alone (I have young children now live with me post D, but that makes it even more challenging lol). I pay the bills,adhere to a budget I can live with (because there's no one to fall back on figuratively speaking) take care of the house, the kids, the home maintenance (either myself or have it done), the pets, I make all the decisions, etc.

 

The other part is being able to be happy with just myself. Being content in who I am, having fulfilling friendships and activities to partake in, etc,

 

If you find yourself in the position where you HAVE to have a partner to either fulfill you in some way physically, emotionally, financially, whatever, then you're setting yourself up for a co-dependent relationship.

 

Having the freedom to stay in a relationship because you want to and not because you have to is a great feeling. Having the ability to leave a relationship because it's not right for you and KNOWING you can take care of yourself just fine is very liberating.

 

 

I agree and believe that fear will keep you stuck. The only way to know for sure what you would do is to find that independence on your own.

 

I think people are automatically assuming I think he would "fall back into my arms" News alert - I have no idea and more important we have done serious damage to our relationship - that would not be a walk in the park for him, nor am I sure after coming this far it is a road I would go back down.

 

I love him, I support him and I will support his request for contact and to see if we can find a healthier way forward. I won't agree with everything nor will I be sitting here waiting for his call.

 

On that note, it is a beautiful day here and it is time to get out and enjoy!!

[Myowntwofeet]

Hi, Myowntwofeet.

 

I just wanted to say that I fully understand what you're saying and the best thing you can do is what you feel is right for you.

 

If NC didn't do you any good, then it didn't. It's your life and your feelings. You do what you're ready to do. You seem to be understanding yourself well and trying to move forward, which is good.

 

Take care.

 

Thanks Ellen

 

I have learned so much about myself - had to revisit my childhood demons, yet again and had to delve back into therapy from different directions.

 

For the first time in months, hell since DDay, I am being true to me - and I only hope that his W is doing the same. Period.

 

I was leary of his wanting to re-open this door because I needed to be sure everyone had their own power and that he recognized that this may only benefit us and could in ways we have not even thought of. He is clear he is aware and we are all in the present.

 

Walking away from that request, especially the way in which it was made - would have been anything but true to myself.

[crazycatlady]

If he loves you both then chosing might be impossible for him to do. Perhaps he is one of those people capable of loving more then one person, needing to love more then one person. In which case chosing isn't going to happen.

 

Don't know you, don't know your story, gotta agree with some here it sounds like you want him out so you have equal footing in influencing his choice since he would have done the hard part and leave the marital home and aren't truly interested in his best interest - very few of us actually are when it comes to our own best interests.

 

Perhaps you should get together and see about sharing openly and honestly. I'm sure that is what he would rather have.

[Myowntwofeet]

If he loves you both then chosing might be impossible for him to do. Perhaps he is one of those people capable of loving more then one person, needing to love more then one person. In which case chosing isn't going to happen.

 

Don't know you, don't know your story, gotta agree with some here it sounds like you want him out so you have equal footing in influencing his choice since he would have done the hard part and leave the marital home and aren't truly interested in his best interest - very few of us actually are when it comes to our own best interests.

 

Perhaps you should get together and see about sharing openly and honestly. I'm sure that is what he would rather have.

 

 

CCL,

 

Thanks so much for the constructive response. Do I want him to leave - I am not so sure... there is a part of me that wants him to, and another that really wants him to walk through his past ( as he is currently doing) and make the best decision for him. Maybe that is having my interest at heart - but is it not possible to have his as well? How is it possible to know that "his best interest" is with his W - especially knowing he is still struggling emotionally and not fully there?

 

I really appreciate your post - and let me tell you - the honesty between us ( including her does feel good).... so I am happy with that.... and while I am sure he would love to have both - afraid neither woman will settle for that for the long term.

 

I am living, full on actually and giving him time... I am not ramming my opinions down his throat - our communication has improved and much more like it was before - we are listening to each other...and both of us ( myself included) are finding things we didn't see, questioning the good and the bad and finding peace.....where that road leads... no one knows yet.

 

Do I have a stake, of course I do - I love him BUT at the end of the day - If I see/hear/believe he will and is emotionally connecting to his wife - I WILL let him go and believe while some may not - I am already starting that process.

 

Oddly enough.... I think he may be the last one in the three to really make a decision and as I have said to him before - that may very well leave him without both of us.

[crazycatlady]

CCL,

 

Thanks so much for the constructive response. Do I want him to leave - I am not so sure... there is a part of me that wants him to, and another that really wants him to walk through his past ( as he is currently doing) and make the best decision for him. Maybe that is having my interest at heart - but is it not possible to have his as well? How is it possible to know that "his best interest" is with his W - especially knowing he is still struggling emotionally and not fully there?

 

I really appreciate your post - and let me tell you - the honesty between us ( including her does feel good).... so I am happy with that.... and while I am sure he would love to have both - afraid neither woman will settle for that for the long term.

 

I am living, full on actually and giving him time... I am not ramming my opinions down his throat - our communication has improved and much more like it was before - we are listening to each other...and both of us ( myself included) are finding things we didn't see, questioning the good and the bad and finding peace.....where that road leads... no one knows yet.

 

Do I have a stake, of course I do - I love him BUT at the end of the day - If I see/hear/believe he will and is emotionally connecting to his wife - I WILL let him go and believe while some may not - I am already starting that process.

 

Oddly enough.... I think he may be the last one in the three to really make a decision and as I have said to him before - that may very well leave him without both of us.

 

I understand what you are saying, but even wanting the best we sometimes can't overlook our own interest. Its hard for all of us to admit it. I wonder about my own situation and wonder if I could have done what I said I would do if it had come out differently or if I would have fought. I just don't know.

 

And he might be the last one because most people can't admit they want both. And maybe even need both. And you and his wife might end up deciding for him. All of you being on the same page is at least honest. I will say from the BS side of things one of the things that hurt the most was the fact that *I* was excluded from some of the talks. She knew his situation at home and they knew their own situation, but all I had was our situation and not theirs. And while I was not part of their relationship, because she knew and he could talk to her about me, she was a part of ours.

 

As for the struggling emotionally and not fully there....He might never get there with either of you. or when he does it could be too late. With someone like that all you can do is decide what you can handle.

 

CCL

[pureinheart]

I haven't posted in a while. We blew up via boiling emotions for about 5 weeks ago and since then it is like the lid came off and we are all dealing with it in such an adult way.

 

I am not looking to hear how bad we are for being in contact. Simple fact - ALL parties are well aware. His W knows we are meeting about once a week, his therapist - her therapist and mine.... we are all here voluntarily - by choice and for the time being - we are all paddling forward but in our own boats.

 

We were at dinner last night and talking about our individual progress in therapy, some of our stumbling blocks and our own relationship.

 

There are things I will not let him sugarcoat and of course things I have to own - we are working on getting through the pain we caused each other ( we did that in spades) and taking baby steps forward. If that means moving apart - that is exactly what it means.... no expectations on any side and that is the truth. If it means opening the door again - that will only happen if he is out of the house, period.

 

Last night we were talking and one of our "agree to disagree's" is that staying was easier (for him) because he does love his wife, doesn't want to disappoint his girls and has serious parent issues ( would rather die than have his mom dissappoint in his choices and has never felt worthy... that is just unraveling and I won't go into details... but serious issues).

 

Regardless,

 

Two things we were friendly debating ..... That moving out, being on his own ( without either woman), paying his own bills, sleeping in his own bed, making decisions, walking through the realizations that some will judge him,others will not but at the end of the day accepting himself and simply learning how to be on his own ( he has never lived alone) is not the same as as he says "being alone".... as he feels he was when the fire was at its highest. He thinks he already found that " independence" that I am referring too.... I believe he cannot find that independence when he is with either one of us.

 

I also believe that is the only way of ever knowing ( for the woman) that he truly did the right thing. We both know he loves the other... and we have both come to accept that ( yes, she has as well)..... and we also both have shared the insecurities in walking through this triangle.

 

I believe if he was truly alone, without either woman... he would either find his way back to the one he could truly commit too or find out neither are the right one and alone or with someone all together different is the right answer.

 

So can you really understand that self independence if you are still physically in the family home, haven't own up to the important people ( parent's, co-workers in his case, etc)?

 

What does it take to really know which road to take? I personally believe time alone, independence and finding yourself is the only answer..... but very interest if others hold the view that many MC's hold and that is "don't leave the house"

 

Hi and hugs MOTF....

 

The councelling that I have always received, and this particular councelling was from my church, is to leave the house...that separation was the best avenue.

 

Reason being, like you stated, living on your own gives one time to reflect and make decisions without any influence. I think that in most cases this technique rids all parties of the flip-flopping effect that can occur.

 

Ok....from my own experience in observing others and especially exDM...it has done him a world of good, he gets to see the other side of the coin objectively...though there is absolutely no love lost where his exW is concerned (whole nother story), although I don't really think he had a full understanding of her contribution (or anyone elses for that matter) and does now...or maybe she didn't contribute that much and he now knows that.

 

Now exDM knows how to take care of himself, in all ways...and he's doing ok...he was a bit rough around the edges at first, although has overcome that.

 

Another thing I want to throw out there...having worked with a work force of mainly men, I got to hear the good, bad and the very, very ugly. I heard a really good friend say that if he ever got D'ed he would be a male whore for awhile (exact words)....so I also think that those men who were in long R's might want to test the field per se, especially if their W's policed them.

 

I just experienced being completely alone (in the home) about a year ago...it was like weird...I freaked out for a bit, but then began to enjoy it...well now I have a houseful (which I like better)...although it was a good experience, weird, but good.

 

I think you are right on the money (as usual)...I have always liked your posts BTW:)

[pureinheart]

fBS here....

 

Well, I too disagree with the MC.

 

Who wants to be anyone's default choice, fercryin'outloud?

 

I think living at home does tend to preserve the marriage, and maybe with total independence from each other, either he or she or both, will decide it isn't worth it or it is.

 

Meanwhile, you are still in a wait and see position until some decision is made.

 

So instead of being in a holding pattern, make sure you are really living your life! Fill it to the brim!

 

What is often not realized in a triangle is that it may be the BS who decides the marriage as it stands is no longer worth it.

 

Or you might decide you no longer want to wait around.

 

I think he should move out and be alone. It often forces clarity of thinking, IMHO.

 

I don't think anyone would IMO. Just speaking for myself...no way...with being the case, I can walk away and never look back. Something at that point in me changes and that's it:)

[desertmoon]

Hello MOTF!

 

I think I understand where you are coming from. My xMM and I broke up almost immediately after he asked me to marry him and said he was divorcing his wife. I never tried to contact him after but never not pick-up his call when he called me. And he did call me several times and we even went for dinner at one time but that was the extent of our contact-there was nothing physical or sexual about it. I cared for the man and never wanted to not be available for him when he tried to reach out even though I was the one who broke up with him.

 

That was a year and half ago and we are back with each other. Both divorced and so far, happy to be back with each other. The time when we were apart was interesting. Sometimes, we were upset at each other, sometimes bitter. We also both tried to be with other people, which were disasters because the thought of each other were always there at the background.

 

I do think it is good for your MM to be "alone"-to not be "with" you nor his wife. But that is something that he has to decide for himself-no one can make him do it. And really, it takes a different breed of man (or woman)to be able to extricate himself from a situation that does not make him happy despite the fall-out.

 

Good luck to you!

[Ellin]

Farce.

 

How can you possibly say that what he "needs" is time w/o either woman when you have already made it perfectly clear you won't let him do that.

 

 

 

You already know you "can't" stay away.

And he obviously doesn't want you "away".

 

So your whole point about independence is moot - its a farce.

 

He can't achieve it because you won't let him. You already "can't stay away"...

 

You want him to be independent....ok....here's what you do:

 

Go away.

 

You heard me. Leave. NC.

 

Because you are influencing him. Stop it.

 

Tell him what you want then go away. He knows how to find you.

 

You do this, I PROMISE he will choose this independence or not.

He must learn to decide, and choose and live on his own. Independent of you. Of his Wife. Of his family. You, least of all, can help him in this. In fact, the ONLY way to help him is to go away. That first step must come from him...let him work through it ALONE (actually all steps must come from him)

 

Then, finally, he will have to think and choose on his own. You can't hold his hand. You can't guide him. You can't teach him.

 

So, do what's best for EVERYONE, have a goodbye dinner and walk away. One day, he either shows up with D papers in hand...or not.

 

I'm just wondering in what way it is not ok for the OP to try and influence (as you see it) her MM's actions, but it is ok for you do try and influence the OP's actions?

[jwi71]

I'm just wondering in what way it is not ok for the OP to try and influence (as you see it) her MM's actions, but it is ok for you do try and influence the OP's actions?

 

Well Ellin, because the OP is complaining her MM needs independence from both her and his wife - time to grow on his own. And for the MM to achieve independence then both women need to step away and stop influencing him.

 

Had the OP asked for how to be independent from LS..I would have said the same...go away from LS.

 

I thought that was self evident in my post.

 

So I must apologize for assuming readers would grasp the obvious.

[norajane]

CCL,

 

Thanks so much for the constructive response. Do I want him to leave - I am not so sure... there is a part of me that wants him to, and another that really wants him to walk through his past ( as he is currently doing) and make the best decision for him. Maybe that is having my interest at heart - but is it not possible to have his as well? How is it possible to know that "his best interest" is with his W - especially knowing he is still struggling emotionally and not fully there?

 

I really appreciate your post - and let me tell you - the honesty between us ( including her does feel good).... so I am happy with that.... and while I am sure he would love to have both - afraid neither woman will settle for that for the long term.

 

I am living, full on actually and giving him time... I am not ramming my opinions down his throat - our communication has improved and much more like it was before - we are listening to each other...and both of us ( myself included) are finding things we didn't see, questioning the good and the bad and finding peace.....where that road leads... no one knows yet.

 

Do I have a stake, of course I do - I love him BUT at the end of the day - If I see/hear/believe he will and is emotionally connecting to his wife - I WILL let him go and believe while some may not - I am already starting that process.

 

Oddly enough.... I think he may be the last one in the three to really make a decision and as I have said to him before - that may very well leave him without both of us.

 

Here's the thing:

 

I think you see him moving out and being "on his own" as a step toward him determining the best path for himself without you and his wife influencing him.

 

However, I cannot imagine that he sees moving out of his marital home as anything but a separation from his wife, i.e., a step toward dissolving his marriage. Which changes the stakes for him considerably, and requires him to have already made the decision to separate.

 

He is not a guy living on his own already and dating two women he needs to choose between so he's going to take a "break" from both until he clears his head. Any steps he takes to move out and be "independent" are affirmative steps "away" from his marriage and his wife.

 

What does he do to gain this independence so he can think - rent an apartment, furniture, knives and forks and spoons, sign up for utilities, arranged visitation with his children, and awkward financial arrangements so he continues to pay for both his marital household and his rental household? Not to mention the resulting reactions and actions of his wife and family, who also will see it as a separation.

 

I just cannot see how you expect him to do these things unless he has already decided to separate because he is planning to disengage from his wife and marriage.

 

If I see/hear/believe he will and is emotionally connecting to his wife - I WILL let him go

 

You have it backwards. He is already emotionally connected to his wife and his life. You should let him go if you see that he is not disconnecting from her. Which he hasn't during the 6 months of NC with you. And which he won't while he has you both supporting his having you both.

[Myowntwofeet]

Well Ellin, because the OP is complaining her MM needs independence from both her and his wife - time to grow on his own. And for the MM to achieve independence then both women need to step away and stop influencing him.

 

Had the OP asked for how to be independent from LS..I would have said the same...go away from LS.

 

I thought that was self evident in my post.

 

So I must apologize for assuming readers would grasp the obvious.

 

Well apparently she isn't the only one who missed it.

 

And it appears that the obvious isn't always obvious even when stated right at the beginning

 

I am not complaining - in fact, I clearly state I do not want to debate my choice. I WAS asking for opinions on a specific thought ( one that does not only regard my particular MM)

 

I am well aware of my choice - power to walk if I so choose.

 

I find it amazing ( I really do) that those who believe in recovery at all costs are only seeing one scenerio and can't possibly see that whether you like it or not - he hasn't made any firm choice.

 

I am happy with my choice at the moment and while you can knock me because of course I am the OW and you can spin the NC however you like...I can as well.

 

6 months didn't "clear his head".... 6 months didn't make him see any LIGHT, see months and prior silly drama didn't make him see FOG and clearly being in the house didn't make him any more emotionally connected than he was

[Myowntwofeet]

 

You have it backwards. He is already emotionally connected to his wife and his life. You should let him go if you see that he is not disconnecting from her. Which he hasn't during the 6 months of NC with you. And which he won't while he has you both supporting his having you both.

 

He loves his wife ( did I ever say different?)...please don't make this about bashing her but he is not and as he says never will be intimately/emotionally connected. They never were.

 

And yes, you are right - he does need to realize the family won't crumble if he finds a place - he does have to deal with his fears of that.

 

I realize some are more than happy to advocate staying because it is the "moral" thing to do....but Nora - you just flipped on your own argument

 

How many BS believe the MM stays because of only their relationship? Here you are readily suggesting if he leaves, he has everyone else to deal with too..

 

Again - as I said to him and I meant this.

 

If both women REALLY want to know the right road - he has to choose without the baggage of what family thinks.

 

I can't believe some here.

 

I would not sleep at night thinking I was the default because of the family/history etc. I am not saying he wouldn't choose her.... but neither of us will fully know unless he gets his **** together for himself.

 

The question is

 

Alone, without the finances, fear of disappointment, fear of being alone, fear of colleagues, what would he do?

 

He once said to me " You know in your heart this isn't my choice about you or " and you know what ... he continues to prove that - even after 6 months of NC.

 

I am getting stronger everyday and it is very possible he will lose me.... he may lose her as well.... but I still don't know how my leaving him will make her feel better at night when she also knows he would not walk away from me on his own.

[norajane]

He loves his wife ( did I ever say different?)...please don't make this about bashing her but he is not and as he says never will be intimately/emotionally connected. They never were.

 

And yes, you are right - he does need to realize the family won't crumble if he finds a place - he does have to deal with his fears of that.

 

I realize some are more than happy to advocate staying because it is the "moral" thing to do....but Nora - you just flipped on your own argument

 

How many BS believe the MM stays because of only their relationship? Here you are readily suggesting if he leaves, he has everyone else to deal with too..

 

Again - as I said to him and I meant this.

 

If both women REALLY want to know the right road - he has to choose without the baggage of what family thinks.

 

I can't believe some here.

 

I would not sleep at night thinking I was the default because of the family/history etc. I am not saying he wouldn't choose her.... but neither of us will fully know unless he gets his **** together for himself.

 

The question is

 

Alone, without the finances, fear of disappointment, fear of being alone, fear of colleagues, what would he do?

 

He once said to me " You know in your heart this isn't my choice about you or " and you know what ... he continues to prove that - even after 6 months of NC.

 

I am getting stronger everyday and it is very possible he will lose me.... he may lose her as well.... but I still don't know how my leaving him will make her feel better at night when she also knows he would not walk away from me on his own.

 

I am not in the least bit advocating him staying with his wife. I don't care what he does. And I think both you and his wife should dump him and move on with your lives because he's stringing you both along and he should have to deal with some consequences for his behavior instead of both you and his wife accommodating his every pathetic little want.

 

However, you are posting asking for advice about his independence, and I am trying to explain to you that what you see as "independence", he sees as "separation" and "leaving his wife and children" and "disconnecting from his marriage and wife".

 

Thus, you and he will never reach agreement on his being independent enough to make a choice, because for him to be as independent as you want him, he will have already had to make the choice to separate from his wife and his life. In practical terms, what you want isn't possible unless he has already decided to take steps away from his marriage.

 

Alone, without the finances, fear of disappointment, fear of being alone, fear of colleagues, what would he do?

This is also not possible except as a hypothetical, because he does not live in a vacuum. And, in fact, it is all of those things in his LIFE that are tying him to his LIFE, not just his wife.

 

And the answer to the hypothetical does not help you in practical terms. If, in a vacuum, he would choose to be with you, so what? He does not live in that vacuum, and in the life he is currently living, those elements are at work.

 

As for whether his wife would want to be his default choice because of those elements, again, so what? That is up to her to decide, and has no bearing on you.

 

The only thing that does have bearing on you is whether YOU can sleep at night knowing that MM is not making any choices whatsoever except to keep both his married life and you. And if his wife dumps him and you end up with him, can you sleep at night knowing that the only reason he is with you is because she finally dumped him and not because he made an affirmative choice to end his marriage?

Edited July 19, 2010 by norajane

[pureinheart]

Hello MOTF!

 

I think I understand where you are coming from. My xMM and I broke up almost immediately after he asked me to marry him and said he was divorcing his wife. I never tried to contact him after but never not pick-up his call when he called me. And he did call me several times and we even went for dinner at one time but that was the extent of our contact-there was nothing physical or sexual about it. I cared for the man and never wanted to not be available for him when he tried to reach out even though I was the one who broke up with him.

 

That was a year and half ago and we are back with each other. Both divorced and so far, happy to be back with each other. The time when we were apart was interesting. Sometimes, we were upset at each other, sometimes bitter. We also both tried to be with other people, which were disasters because the thought of each other were always there at the background.

 

I do think it is good for your MM to be "alone"-to not be "with" you nor his wife. But that is something that he has to decide for himself-no one can make him do it. And really, it takes a different breed of man (or woman)to be able to extricate himself from a situation that does not make him happy despite the fall-out.

 

Good luck to you!

 

BTW, I always like your posts also, wish you would post more:). ExDM asked me to marry him also (they separated then a few months later she filed) when she had filed for D. This didn't feel right, but I went with it anyway because I really cared for him and that's what I wanted.

 

It was a rocky road to say the least.

 

I totally agree (bold) and I am very proud that exDM came through with sort of flying colors...he did good, and I really hope he meets someone that will compliment him...he deserves it.

[Owl]

Hmmm....how about a slightly different approach? A MORE selfish one, perhaps?

 

Skip "what's good for him" for now.

 

What do YOU need/want out of all of this? What are your goals/hopes/dreams for the outcome of this situation?

 

What steps do you think have to happen to get there? What actions is he going to HAVE to take in order for these goals/dreams to come to fruition?

 

Last thought...and give it some hard, straight forward critical thinking...do you honestly believe that he can/is willing to take those actions to make that happen? Deep down, gut response...is he going to leave his wife for you at some point...or do you believe that he's going to choose to stay home instead?

 

Focus on some 'enlightened self-interests' here for a moment. Do you believe that this is going to work out with him with you.....or him with her? If it's with you...then push him to make that choice and get there, before you suffer so much pain and trauma that you're not able to love him back by then. If you believe he's too deeply rooted/whatever and going to stay with her...then end it on your terms, under your own strength.

 

That's my thought on the subject.

 

It's your life...it's always better to be captain of that ship rather than just a passenger.

[pureinheart]

I am not in the least bit advocating him staying with his wife. I don't care what he does. And I think both you and his wife should dump him and move on with your lives because he's stringing you both along and he should have to deal with some consequences for his behavior instead of both you and his wife accommodating his every pathetic little want.

 

However, you are posting asking for advice about his independence, and I am trying to explain to you that what you see as "independence", he sees as "separation" and "leaving his wife and children" and "disconnecting from his marriage and wife".

 

Thus, you and he will never reach agreement on his being independent enough to make a choice, because for him to be as independent as you want him, he will have already had to make the choice to separate from his wife and his life. In practical terms, what you want isn't possible unless he has already decided to take steps away from his marriage.

 

This is also not possible except as a hypothetical, because he does not live in a vacuum. And, in fact, it is all of those things in his LIFE that are tying him to his LIFE, not just his wife.

 

And the answer to the hypothetical does not help you in practical terms. If, in a vacuum, he would choose to be with you, so what? He does not live in that vacuum, and in the life he is currently living, those elements are at work.

 

As for whether his wife would want to be his default choice because of those elements, again, so what? That is up to her to decide, and has no bearing on you.

 

The only thing that does have bearing on you is whether YOU can sleep at night knowing that MM is not making any choices whatsoever except to keep both his married life and you. And if his wife dumps him and you end up with him, can you sleep at night knowing that the only reason he is with you is because she finally dumped him and not because he made an affirmative choice to end his marriage?

 

I really enjoyed the knowledge and wisdom in this reply...wow, I know it was meant for MOTF, but it really helped me understand my own past sitch:)

[pureinheart]

I am not in the least bit advocating him staying with his wife. I don't care what he does. And I think both you and his wife should dump him and move on with your lives because he's stringing you both along and he should have to deal with some consequences for his behavior instead of both you and his wife accommodating his every pathetic little want.

 

However, you are posting asking for advice about his independence, and I am trying to explain to you that what you see as "independence", he sees as "separation" and "leaving his wife and children" and "disconnecting from his marriage and wife".

 

Thus, you and he will never reach agreement on his being independent enough to make a choice, because for him to be as independent as you want him, he will have already had to make the choice to separate from his wife and his life. In practical terms, what you want isn't possible unless he has already decided to take steps away from his marriage.

 

This is also not possible except as a hypothetical, because he does not live in a vacuum. And, in fact, it is all of those things in his LIFE that are tying him to his LIFE, not just his wife.

 

And the answer to the hypothetical does not help you in practical terms. If, in a vacuum, he would choose to be with you, so what? He does not live in that vacuum, and in the life he is currently living, those elements are at work.

 

As for whether his wife would want to be his default choice because of those elements, again, so what? That is up to her to decide, and has no bearing on you.

 

The only thing that does have bearing on you is whether YOU can sleep at night knowing that MM is not making any choices whatsoever except to keep both his married life and you. And if his wife dumps him and you end up with him, can you sleep at night knowing that the only reason he is with you is because she finally dumped him and not because he made an affirmative choice to end his marriage?

 

I really enjoyed the knowledge and wisdom in this reply...wow, I know it was meant for MOTF, but it really helped me understand my own past sitch:)

[2sure]

He is not capable of making this decision independently.

Some people never really make independent decisions about their lives , they simply wait to be manipulated into having one made for them. Its the way they are.

 

Ultimately, whoever leaves him first - his wife or yourself - is simply giving him to the other woman. "Here, take him".

 

He doesnt want to be the bad guy in anyone eyes. Its a stunted and selfish way to try to live when you think about it. Doesnt mean he is a monster , doesnt mean he cant have an exclusive relationship, but...

 

But someone will have to do it for him. He will go back and forth back and forth until someone shuts one door, locks it, and tosses the key. You both love him and he loves you both -so maybe you can go from there.

 

I bet his wife will get tired of this and divorce him. I also would not be surprised if during the process of divorce you lose your patience as well. Kind of sadly, he will end up on his own in one of those short term lease studio apartments with furniture included wondering how he got there. Happens all the time.

[jwi71]

Well apparently she isn't the only one who missed it.

 

And it appears that the obvious isn't always obvious even when stated right at the beginning

 

I am not complaining - in fact, I clearly state I do not want to debate my choice. I WAS asking for opinions on a specific thought ( one that does not only regard my particular MM)

 

I am well aware of my choice - power to walk if I so choose.

 

I find it amazing ( I really do) that those who believe in recovery at all costs are only seeing one scenerio and can't possibly see that whether you like it or not - he hasn't made any firm choice.

 

I am happy with my choice at the moment and while you can knock me because of course I am the OW and you can spin the NC however you like...I can as well.

 

6 months didn't "clear his head".... 6 months didn't make him see any LIGHT, see months and prior silly drama didn't make him see FOG and clearly being in the house didn't make him any more emotionally connected than he was

 

He loves his wife ( did I ever say different?)...please don't make this about bashing her but he is not and as he says never will be intimately/emotionally connected. They never were.

 

And yes, you are right - he does need to realize the family won't crumble if he finds a place - he does have to deal with his fears of that.

 

I realize some are more than happy to advocate staying because it is the "moral" thing to do....but Nora - you just flipped on your own argument

 

How many BS believe the MM stays because of only their relationship? Here you are readily suggesting if he leaves, he has everyone else to deal with too..

 

Again - as I said to him and I meant this.

 

If both women REALLY want to know the right road - he has to choose without the baggage of what family thinks.

 

I can't believe some here.

 

I would not sleep at night thinking I was the default because of the family/history etc. I am not saying he wouldn't choose her.... but neither of us will fully know unless he gets his **** together for himself.

 

The question is

 

Alone, without the finances, fear of disappointment, fear of being alone, fear of colleagues, what would he do?

 

He once said to me " You know in your heart this isn't my choice about you or " and you know what ... he continues to prove that - even after 6 months of NC.

 

I am getting stronger everyday and it is very possible he will lose me.... he may lose her as well.... but I still don't know how my leaving him will make her feel better at night when she also knows he would not walk away from me on his own.

 

You are getting perilously close to "bitter OW because he didnt choose her" territory.

 

You assume WAY too much. Its a bad habit.

 

I said nothing about your MM reconciling. Not one word. You assumed that my telling you to walk was tantamount to such. It wasn't. Like NJ, I don't care WHAT he does.

 

For him, or any to know independence, they must be...uh, independent. Away from those actors defining and shaping their actions. See, we agree.

What you don't like is that YOU must go too - because independence is free of all actors. You included - otherwise, he is still being affected and cannot "freely choose". That wasn't so hard now was it?

 

And then we hit a snag don't we MOTF? Because what you want to know is NOT what you asked. You want to know how to get him out of their INFLUENCE and solely under yours. This isn't about free will and independent thought at all.

 

Ohh...now you make more sense. No wonder you didn't like what I had to say (even though, given your original question, we agree). No wonder you immediately go on the offensive about "reconciling at all costs"...where did you read that in my post?

 

I could go on but you aren't really here for advice.

You want to know how to isolate your MM from that pesky family. Like NJ said, you cannot. He doesn't operate in a vacuum.

 

My advice still stands..

 

He can only be independent w/o outside influence. But that is an academic exercise. Since he cannot EVER bee 100% free of outside influence, you either deal with it or do not.

 

Personally, I would walk.

Farewell dinner.

Tell him what you want. Tell him the whys.

Then bail. He knows how to reach you.

 

Of course you wont. It wouldn't be fair in some twisted sense. Because to do what I suggest means you have no influence and that pesky wife does. And his family will still be there influencing away. And you are left w/o a voice to sway him to YOUR desired outcome.

 

How do you "out-influence" his family? I have no idea. Maybe you can trap him with a pregnancy? That's about all I got.

[Myowntwofeet]

Hmmm....how about a slightly different approach? A MORE selfish one, perhaps?

 

Skip "what's good for him" for now.

 

What do YOU need/want out of all of this? What are your goals/hopes/dreams for the outcome of this situation?

 

What steps do you think have to happen to get there? What actions is he going to HAVE to take in order for these goals/dreams to come to fruition?

 

Last thought...and give it some hard, straight forward critical thinking...do you honestly believe that he can/is willing to take those actions to make that happen? Deep down, gut response...is he going to leave his wife for you at some point...or do you believe that he's going to choose to stay home instead?

 

Focus on some 'enlightened self-interests' here for a moment. Do you believe that this is going to work out with him with you.....or him with her? If it's with you...then push him to make that choice and get there, before you suffer so much pain and trauma that you're not able to love him back by then. If you believe he's too deeply rooted/whatever and going to stay with her...then end it on your terms, under your own strength.

 

That's my thought on the subject.

 

It's your life...it's always better to be captain of that ship rather than just a passenger.

 

I just typed out my response and lost it! ARRRRrrrr

 

Owl, thank you for posting - I always enjoy hearing you.

 

I have thought, long and hard about what I want.

 

I am not perfect - I can only say what is currently happening. I am proud of the extreme work he has done in IC - he has grown a great deal in the last six months... and I do see it.

 

I know him and yes, I do love him but unlike before I am not sitting here waiting or wishing my life away. I am openly and freely living my life - and that is causing him to evaluate feelings that have arose because of that.

 

He is just now admitting he is jealous - and you know what- that is his to work through with his IC, He needs to walk through that and see if/why that is and come to terms with it.

 

2Sure is dead on... .he may never be able to walk away, and I do believe he loves both..... I am not waiting for the call.

 

But I am friend, I am going to support him as long as I see work being done.

 

It is time for me to have faith in his IC, have faith in what is meant to happen will..... and that means if we find a road ( won't be an easy one) for us...then we do.... If he finds true happiness in the home, than I will be the first to congratulate him...I do want him to be happy.

 

In the meantime, my growth has caused new challenges for him.... and I have seen a different side emerging.

 

The bottom line. I am living my life as a single, available women..... and I am happier today than I have been in a long time...... I am not whispering I love you's and "when are you leaving". I am honoring myself, my boundaries and being honest that I do love him and will support him. If a decision arises that includes me - I will then evaluate the situation myself.

 

I am concerned that he will lose us both, I told him that in December....no one knows for sure.

 

3 people in individual boats working on their own paddling..... no one knows but I am much peaceful knowing we are all aware and capable of making choices for ourselves

[Myowntwofeet]

You are getting perilously close to "bitter OW because he didnt choose her" territory.

 

You assume WAY too much. Its a bad habit.

 

I said nothing about your MM reconciling. Not one word. You assumed that my telling you to walk was tantamount to such. It wasn't. Like NJ, I don't care WHAT he does.

 

For him, or any to know independence, they must be...uh, independent. Away from those actors defining and shaping their actions. See, we agree.

What you don't like is that YOU must go too - because independence is free of all actors. You included - otherwise, he is still being affected and cannot "freely choose". That wasn't so hard now was it?

 

And then we hit a snag don't we MOTF? Because what you want to know is NOT what you asked. You want to know how to get him out of their INFLUENCE and solely under yours. This isn't about free will and independent thought at all.

 

Ohh...now you make more sense. No wonder you didn't like what I had to say (even though, given your original question, we agree). No wonder you immediately go on the offensive about "reconciling at all costs"...where did you read that in my post?

 

I could go on but you aren't really here for advice.

You want to know how to isolate your MM from that pesky family. Like NJ said, you cannot. He doesn't operate in a vacuum.

 

My advice still stands..

 

He can only be independent w/o outside influence. But that is an academic exercise. Since he cannot EVER bee 100% free of outside influence, you either deal with it or do not.

 

Personally, I would walk.

Farewell dinner.

Tell him what you want. Tell him the whys.

Then bail. He knows how to reach you.

 

Of course you wont. It wouldn't be fair in some twisted sense. Because to do what I suggest means you have no influence and that pesky wife does. And his family will still be there influencing away. And you are left w/o a voice to sway him to YOUR desired outcome.

 

How do you "out-influence" his family? I have no idea. Maybe you can trap him with a pregnancy? That's about all I got.

 

 

Bitter other woman? If that were the case- I would have him back in bed already:rolleyes:

 

Wow... you read exactly what you want to read...and then you call me bitter... how about screams JADED.

 

I don't care what you believe... I no more want him to be under my influence than those of others. I want him to own his life and his choices.... to understand that those who truly love him will continue to if he is separated ( NOT necessarily with me).

 

I do not want him to be the typical " poor me" guy..... 4 years from now... or worse back to playing on the side for his emotional fix. I would like to see him do the hard work now and live a good life ( with or without me in the picture).

 

I don't believe I suggested I don't have personal stake in this, of course I do.... and certainly didn't argue it when CCL stated exactly that....

 

I also don't believe his family is "pesky" ( please stop putting words in my mouth as I find it extremely annoying and condescending)

 

As for your " get pregnant comment".... really - is that the best you could do?

 

Talk about a childish response. If you can't converse with thoughts rather than dictation ...by all means - step away.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Myowntwofeet

[pureinheart]

He is not capable of making this decision independently.

Some people never really make independent decisions about their lives , they simply wait to be manipulated into having one made for them. Its the way they are.

 

Ultimately, whoever leaves him first - his wife or yourself - is simply giving him to the other woman. "Here, take him".

 

He doesnt want to be the bad guy in anyone eyes. Its a stunted and selfish way to try to live when you think about it. Doesnt mean he is a monster , doesnt mean he cant have an exclusive relationship, but...

 

But someone will have to do it for him. He will go back and forth back and forth until someone shuts one door, locks it, and tosses the key. You both love him and he loves you both -so maybe you can go from there.

 

I bet his wife will get tired of this and divorce him. I also would not be surprised if during the process of divorce you lose your patience as well. Kind of sadly, he will end up on his own in one of those short term lease studio apartments with furniture included wondering how he got there. Happens all the time.

 

Wow...Thread Hall Of Fame...this thread is amazing.

[Ellin]

Well Ellin, because the OP is complaining her MM needs independence from both her and his wife - time to grow on his own. And for the MM to achieve independence then both women need to step away and stop influencing him.

I assume you'll be soon contacting his W to tell her that, in order to secure his way to independence properly.

Had the OP asked for how to be independent from LS..I would have said the same...go away from LS.

For it to be the same she would have had to ask how to be independent from HIM. But she didn't ask that. She didn't even ask how to MAKE HIM independent. She only asked if he can make a free independent decision while staying in his marital home. She asked for opinions.

 

Sorry for assuming you have a graps of logic.

 

Nevermind....