Are there different degrees of being alpha and beta?

[SadandConfusedWA]

I am thinking about alpha/beta males and females. I think of myself as more of a beta (I lack confidence and am not too outgoing).

 

I have noticed though, that in certain groups of people I can be the most dominant of the group.

 

In a different group, I can be completly overpowered by a louder/more outgoing female or male, to the point where I can not get 2 words in.

 

Does this mean that in the first example, we are a group of betas, with being the "strongest beta"?

[Els]

Alpha and beta is just a dumb, black-and-white classification, IMO. There's a whole scale of social dominance, and it differs in each aspect and situation.

[TouchedByViolet]

Alpha and beta is just a dumb, black-and-white classification, IMO. There's a whole scale of social dominance, and it differs in each aspect and situation.

 

I agree, it's definitely more of a spectrum, rather than 2 shades.

[Taramere]

I'm like my dog. She's friendly but sometimes she tries to play some sort of alpha-mediator in a way that causes more problems than it resolves. For instance in the park, a couple of dogs might start scrapping. If it weren't for her intervention, they'd probably sort it out quickly - but she spots the drama and goes hurtling in with a "cut all this out" look on her face. It usually results in a mass of dogs, snarling and bickering before owners finally pile in and pull the scrum apart.

 

Every once in a while we'll encounter a really large dog while we're out. Either a larger, male version of her own breed - or something like a Newfoundland. When that happens, she turns into a total beta. Her normally gruff bark becomes an angry, frightened little yap. She'll bow down in front of the larger dog angrily Yap, yap, yap. The larger dog will usually just stare at her with a "WTF?" expression as alphamales do when they're being harassed by beta females.

 

We know there's no political correctness in the animal kingdom, and that an alphamale will always have dominance over an alphafemale. I love

The expression on the lion's face as it's being attacked by females from its own pride in a case of mistaken identity. It's not really fighting back. Everything about its response suggests a combination of hurt and outrage rather than aggression:

 

As far as humans go, we'll just never be as cool as predatory animals are and there's no point kidding ourselves otherwise....but our behaviour is like a hugely watered down version of what goes on in the wild. A few clear, strongly motivated leaders, but most people probably just want life to be as easy as possible, and I'm no exception. So on balance, I'd say beta.

[tanbark813]

Alpha, beta, omega (weakest of the group) only make sense in the context of a group. You're not an alpha or beta absolutely and independently of others. You only take on that role in the context of others.

 

So to the OP: In the first situation, you're the alpha of that group. In the second, a beta (or maybe even omega ).

 

It's like being first in line at the movie theater. You may be first in line at one given time, but that doesn't mean you'll always be first in line.

 

The alpha in a wolf pack isn't static. He eventually gets replaced by a stronger wolf.

 

And when people start talking about groups of alpha males or something, it doesn't even make sense since you can only have one alpha per group by definition.

[espec10001]

This subject always cracks me up. Just because someone is outgoing and social does not mean they are 'dominant'. Everyone has a unique personality and how outgoing someone is depends on the situation, the people involved, what activity or skill is being used, etc. There are so many variables that classifying people into catagories like 'alpha' and 'beta' is nonsense.

 

People are individuals!!!

[Mr White]

I think the alpha-est of all are quiet people who mind their own business, exceptionally good at whatever they do, have nothing to prove (and so don't feel compelled to), do not attempt to dominate anything, but can endure anything, as well as feed you your own balls if provoked. Being outgoing or not is usually the least important variable, even if its the most visible.

[threebyfate]

We know there's no political correctness in the animal kingdom, and that an alphamale will always have dominance over an alphafemale. I love

The expression on the lion's face as it's being attacked by females from its own pride in a case of mistaken identity. It's not really fighting back. Everything about its response suggests a combination of hurt and outrage rather than aggression:

 

As far as humans go, we'll just never be as cool as predatory animals are and there's no point kidding ourselves otherwise....but our behaviour is like a hugely watered down version of what goes on in the wild. A few clear, strongly motivated leaders, but most people probably just want life to be as easy as possible, and I'm no exception. So on balance, I'd say beta.

Love lions. The little cub lying on its stomach by the river just makes me melt!

 

As for loud people, they're annoying rather than alpha.

[Taramere]

Love lions. The little cub lying on its stomach by the river just makes me melt!

 

It's so cute, isn't it! I love the attentive expressions on the cubs' faces when they're watching the adventurous (alpha?) cub pestering the lion.

 

As for loud people, they're annoying rather than alpha.

 

Agreed. My old boss (who you know all about) considers herself an alpha...but really she's more like a carnie worker yelling "roll up, roll up" to potential customers. One time I was sitting in on a meeting with her for a new client, and at the end of it when it came to that awful moment of asking the client for a deposit up front, her words were "...and now it's time to cross my palm with silver!"

 

In her eyes, she's a tough, dominant, no nonsense businesswoman who tells it like it is. In other people's eyes, she'd be better off running a stall selling tat at the local car boot sale, than trying to provide a professional service.

[CLC2008]

We know there's no political correctness in the animal kingdom, and that an alphamale will always have dominance over an alphafemale. I love

The expression on the lion's face as it's being attacked by females from its own pride in a case of mistaken identity. It's not really fighting back. Everything about its response suggests a combination of hurt and outrage rather than aggression

 

Fiercley loyal and protective.

 

Love them

[threebyfate]

It's so cute, isn't it! I love the attentive expressions on the cubs' faces when they're watching the adventurous (alpha?) cub pestering the lion.

Haha...yes!! Ears forward, head up, full focus. They're seeing what he/she is able to get away with.

Agreed. My old boss (who you know all about) considers herself an alpha...but really she's more like a carnie worker yelling "roll up, roll up" to potential customers. One time I was sitting in on a meeting with her for a new client, and at the end of it when it came to that awful moment of asking the client for a deposit up front, her words were "...and now it's time to cross my palm with silver!"

 

In her eyes, she's a tough, dominant, no nonsense businesswoman who tells it like it is. In other people's eyes, she'd be better off running a stall selling tat at the local car boot sale, than trying to provide a professional service.

An apt description from what you've told me about her! Used truck salesmen aren't alpha, just pure annoyance. Believe at your peril.

[northstar1]

Loud =\= Alpha

 

Loud people in groups often are compensating for something else, often intelligence.

[Taramere]

Fiercley loyal and protective.

 

Love them

 

If you want lion video clips, I'm your woman. That particular one is from a "spy in the den". There's also a series on youtube featuring Dave Salmoni "into the pride". In that one, he's trying to create a connection with a pride of lions to help them get used to tourists (so that they don't charge vehicles containing tourists).

 

I think feelings amongst zoologists about that series were mixed - and he (Salmoni) seemed to have a bit of an obnoxious attitude to the dominant female who was only doing her job (protecting the pride). It certainly makes interesting viewing when it comes to watching how a human being can employ psychology to achieve a certain level of dominance and co-operation techniques with wild animals, though.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Agreed. My old boss (who you know all about) considers herself an alpha...but really she's more like a carnie worker yelling "roll up, roll up" to potential customers. One time I was sitting in on a meeting with her for a new client, and at the end of it when it came to that awful moment of asking the client for a deposit up front, her words were "...and now it's time to cross my palm with silver!"

In her eyes, she's a tough, dominant, no nonsense businesswoman who tells it like it is. In other people's eyes, she'd be better off running a stall selling tat at the local car boot sale, than trying to provide a professional service.

 

Did that line work?

 

It's always funny to see the difference between how a person perceives themselves and how others perceive them.

[deux ex machina]

Loud =\= Alpha

 

Loud people in groups often are compensating for something else, often intelligence.

 

 

That's what I was thinking.

 

Compensating for a lot of things, true. Depends on what they're going on about.

[CLC2008]

If you want lion video clips, I'm your woman. That particular one is from a "spy in the den". There's also a series on youtube featuring Dave Salmoni "into the pride". In that one, he's trying to create a connection with a pride of lions to help them get used to tourists (so that they don't charge vehicles containing tourists).

 

I think feelings amongst zoologists about that series were mixed - and he (Salmoni) seemed to have a bit of an obnoxious attitude to the dominant female who was only doing her job (protecting the pride). It certainly makes interesting viewing when it comes to watching how a human being can employ psychology to achieve a certain level of dominance and co-operation techniques with wild animals, though.

 

 

Cool, please do post!

 

I'm a long withstanding panthera leo enthusiast:lmao:, spent many a time studying them, always wished I would have gotten into zoology.

 

Kevin Richardson is my favorite.

[Taramere]

Did that line work?

 

Well, the client did pay up...but he had an "it might be time to take another look through the yellow pages" look in his eyes.

 

She came out with far worse. She used intercom, so instead of ringing me up, her voice would just suddenly blare into my office, without warning, from the phone. I'd be sitting there drafting a writ (or a post on Loveshack) and suddenly there'd just be this noise coming from the mess on my desk. It might go something like this.

 

"I hate them. I f*cking hate clients, Taramere. Bastards. Do you hate them too?"

 

Fortunately it never happened while I had a client in the office.

 

It's always funny to see the difference between how a person perceives themselves and how others perceive them.

 

I think her perception of herself pretty much tallied with the way others saw her. The difference was that what she regarded as "being a character" other people saw as pretty funny (though unprofessional) at first, but increasingly appalling as you started to understand the lack of boundaries, saw the venomous side and realised she just wasn't someone to be trusted.

 

First and foremost (in my mind) an alpha person - someone you regard as an effective and competent leader - is someone you have to be able to trust and respect. Although she could see herself fairly clearly, what she didn't seem to understand was that her endless problems with staff and clients stemmed from her atrocious management and not because everyone she came into contact with was a screw up.

 

For CLC....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj16JH4sPTY

[Untouchable_Fire]

Well, the client did pay up...but he had an "it might be time to take another look through the yellow pages" look in his eyes.

She came out with far worse. She used intercom, so instead of ringing me up, her voice would just suddenly blare into my office, without warning, from the phone. I'd be sitting there drafting a writ (or a post on Loveshack) and suddenly there'd just be this noise coming from the mess on my desk. It might go something like this.

"I hate them. I f*cking hate clients, Taramere. Bastards. Do you hate them too?"

Fortunately it never happened while I had a client in the office.

 

Honestly, I would have laughed by tail off as a client hearing that. The actual sale would have been made long before, provided the presentation went well.

 

I've only had 2 female bosses in my lifetime... and that lady actually sounds like both of them.

 

I think her perception of herself pretty much tallied with the way others saw her. The difference was that what she regarded as "being a character" other people saw as pretty funny (though unprofessional) at first, but increasingly appalling as you started to understand the lack of boundaries, saw the venomous side and realised she just wasn't someone to be trusted.

First and foremost (in my mind) an alpha person - someone you regard as an effective and competent leader - is someone you have to be able to trust and respect. Although she could see herself fairly clearly, what she didn't seem to understand was that her endless problems with staff and clients stemmed from her atrocious management and not because everyone she came into contact with was a screw up.

 

Hmm... That's what I have always considered to be a definition of Alpha among humans. Not who talks the loudest or is the most pushy.... but those people who can force everyone to perceive them in the way they choose.

 

I've never considered trust and respect to be an important leadership trait. Sometimes fear can create the same effect. I think Alpha types are the ones that make us believe they are leaders... and it doesn't matter what qualities they have.

 

It sounds like your boss had problems accepting her own mistakes. That usually comes from self esteem issues.

[Taramere]

Honestly, I would have laughed by tail off as a client hearing that. The actual sale would have been made long before, provided the presentation went well.

 

No sale. This was a law firm. Where I live, you'll commonly ask for a deposit up front from private clients.

 

It's fine to be goofy and entertaining with colleagues in private, but I think that a professional person meeting with clients needs to be presenting something a bit more impressive. Not many people want to be represented in court by a cursing, guffawing goofball. Additionally, even those clients who are initially entertained by a lawyer who's behaving in an unconventional way are liable to stop chuckling round about the time they get a very hefty bill through the post.

 

I've never considered trust and respect to be an important leadership trait. Sometimes fear can create the same effect. I think Alpha types are the ones that make us believe they are leaders... and it doesn't matter what qualities they have.

 

She paralysed her staff. Periodically she'd hold meetings where she told everyone that she was getting sick of the job, didn't know whether she could be bothered continuing and was considering shutting the firm down. Then she'd wonder why the place was in chaos.

 

I asked her once if she seriously honestly believed she would motivate people by holding these panic meetings, and if she didn't think that a bit of a "boy who cried wolf" situation might set in. She admitted she didn't know how else to motivate the staff, other than by creating a sense of general anxiety.

 

If you can't get the best out of your staff, retain them - and retain their respect, that's not alpha.

 

It sounds like your boss had problems accepting her own mistakes. That usually comes from self esteem issues.

 

Maybe.

[Untouchable_Fire]

No sale. This was a law firm. Where I live, you'll commonly ask for a deposit up front from private clients.

It's fine to be goofy and entertaining with colleagues in private, but I think that a professional person meeting with clients needs to be presenting something a bit more impressive. Not many people want to be represented in court by a cursing, guffawing goofball. Additionally, even those clients who are initially entertained by a lawyer who's behaving in an unconventional way are liable to stop chuckling round about the time they get a very hefty bill through the post.

 

Ok... that is VERY true. If that person is supposed to represent me in court, how they present themselves will be of high importance.

 

She paralysed her staff. Periodically she'd hold meetings where she told everyone that she was getting sick of the job, didn't know whether she could be bothered continuing and was considering shutting the firm down. Then she'd wonder why the place was in chaos.

I asked her once if she seriously honestly believed she would motivate people by holding these panic meetings, and if she didn't think that a bit of a "boy who cried wolf" situation might set in. She admitted she didn't know how else to motivate the staff, other than by creating a sense of general anxiety.

If you can't get the best out of your staff, retain them - and retain their respect, that's not alpha.

 

Holy crap... nobody would perform well under those circumstances. My old boss used to call people into her office individually and threaten to fire them. As a motivational technique it just created high turnover.

 

I've always thought the term Alpha just referred to your social position... ? Does it also reference behavioral characteristics?

[Taramere]

Holy crap... nobody would perform well under those circumstances. My old boss used to call people into her office individually and threaten to fire them. As a motivational technique it just created high turnover.

 

I've always thought the term Alpha just referred to your social position... ? Does it also reference behavioral characteristics?

 

I've heard it said that some of the more ruthless, manipulative bosses are sometimes little more than functional sociopaths. They scramble to the top because they're not inhibited in their actions by feelings of guilt or empathy. They regard people who do experience those emotions as being weak and inferior, unless of course they need to exploit other people's empathy and humanity (then suddenly those become qualities that they'll applaud as being as rare and precious as gold).

 

My ex boss told me things about herself and her past that may have been true, or may have been an elaborate invention to make herself sound more interesting. Some of them were pretty disturbing tales, but she'd relay them like an entertainer rather than someone who was disclosing past behaviour that most people would be ashamed of. She'd also quite freely tell me about people who regarded themselves as being her friends "but really, I just use him" (guffaw). Then a few minutes later she'd be waxing lyrical, her voice filled with dramatic outrage, about what sh*te people are these days. How they're heartless users, etc etc.

 

It's really strange to be working in close proximity to a boss like that, and to have them actually confiding in you about the worst aspects of their personality. Very unnerving.

 

Psychopath in the office, similar to alpha predator out in the jungle? Perhaps, but even the toughest and most ruthless predator ends up lying outstretched on the plain being picked over by vultures...and depending on how many people they alienate, it can happen sooner rather than later. Look at Mel Gibson. In so many respects, the alphamale...but when things start crumbling for people like that, they do so in spectacular fashion.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I've heard it said that some of the more ruthless, manipulative bosses are sometimes little more than functional sociopaths. They scramble to the top because they're not inhibited in their actions by feelings of guilt or empathy. They regard people who do experience those emotions as being weak and inferior, unless of course they need to exploit other people's empathy and humanity (then suddenly those become qualities that they'll applaud as being as rare and precious as gold).

My ex boss told me things about herself and her past that may have been true, or may have been an elaborate invention to make herself sound more interesting. Some of them were pretty disturbing tales, but she'd relay them like an entertainer rather than someone who was disclosing past behaviour that most people would be ashamed of. She'd also quite freely tell me about people who regarded themselves as being her friends "but really, I just use him" (guffaw). Then a few minutes later she'd be waxing lyrical, her voice filled with dramatic outrage, about what sh*te people are these days. How they're heartless users, etc etc.

It's really strange to be working in close proximity to a boss like that, and to have them actually confiding in you about the worst aspects of their personality. Very unnerving.

Psychopath in the office, similar to alpha predator out in the jungle? Perhaps, but even the toughest and most ruthless predator ends up lying outstretched on the plain being picked over by vultures...and depending on how many people they alienate, it can happen sooner rather than later. Look at Mel Gibson. In so many respects, the alphamale...but when things start crumbling for people like that, they do so in spectacular fashion.

 

That is very interesting. I think more than likely she told you those things because she desired your approval... even though it evoked the opposite response. Do you consider yourself easy to talk to? Maybe you don't come across as judgmental?

 

In the animal kingdom the benefits of being alpha are simply you have more surviving progeny, and you eat better.

 

Which is why the term maybe doesn't apply as well to current human behavior. We don't have tribes anymore. Which is why I think SadandConfused felt... confused regarding her status in certain situations. We are not just one way.... much of our behavior is related to those around us.

 

Ah... poor Mel. I have a feeling his issues stem from alcoholism and ego. I heard one of those tapes and I think he is massively drunk, and she is clearly baiting him. Still, no excuse for being a drunken abusive Ahole.

[Taramere]

That is very interesting. I think more than likely she told you those things because she desired your approval... even though it evoked the opposite response. Do you consider yourself easy to talk to? Maybe you don't come across as judgmental?

 

I don't really give a strong reaction to things people tell me, so maybe they find it easier to tell me things sometimes. With her, though....I'd hear her telling the office junior the same kind of stories - and I heard her also share them with lots of other people who were a hybrid of friend and client.

 

If she was talking about behaving vindictively towards someone, I'd tend to give her objective and clinical sounding reasons as to why it wasn't in her best interests. Taking a more emotional "that's unkind...you're better than that" approach isn't going to be effective with someone who is really low on any genuine empathy. You have to appeal to their self interest. I guess in that sense I might have come across as non-judgemental.

 

 

In the animal kingdom the benefits of being alpha are simply you have more surviving progeny, and you eat better.

 

Which is why the term maybe doesn't apply as well to current human behavior. We don't have tribes anymore. Which is why I think SadandConfused felt... confused regarding her status in certain situations. We are not just one way.... much of our behavior is related to those around us.

 

There was another thread where the issue of alpha versus beta women was raised. SAC was a poster on that thread, and perhaps it inspired this current thread. I suppose if someone presents human behaviour in terms of alpha versus beta, the natural response is to wonder "where do I fit in in that? If all social rules, laws and boundaries were suddenly removed and complete anarchy prevailed, how long would I last out there?"

[Stung]

One time I was sitting in on a meeting with her for a new client, and at the end of it when it came to that awful moment of asking the client for a deposit up front, her words were "...and now it's time to cross my palm with silver!"

 

.

 

I guess I'm alone in this but I find it kind of awesome that she used that line at work in the modern era.

 

I am a proponent of the weird.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I don't really give a strong reaction to things people tell me, so maybe they find it easier to tell me things sometimes. With her, though....I'd hear her telling the office junior the same kind of stories - and I heard her also share them with lots of other people who were a hybrid of friend and client.

If she was talking about behaving vindictively towards someone, I'd tend to give her objective and clinical sounding reasons as to why it wasn't in her best interests. Taking a more emotional "that's unkind...you're better than that" approach isn't going to be effective with someone who is really low on any genuine empathy. You have to appeal to their self interest. I guess in that sense I might have come across as non-judgemental.

 

Haha... Ok so your boss was just kind of crazy. Good job handling her though. That seems to be the best approach for that type of person.

 

There was another thread where the issue of alpha versus beta women was raised. SAC was a poster on that thread, and perhaps it inspired this current thread. I suppose if someone presents human behaviour in terms of alpha versus beta, the natural response is to wonder "where do I fit in in that? If all social rules, laws and boundaries were suddenly removed and complete anarchy prevailed, how long would I last out there?"

 

Well... how do we decide where we fit into the social system? Isn't that what makes highschool difficult for so many?

 

Do we decide for ourselves or do others make that determination for us?