torranceshipman Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I was reading the 'MM lies to the W but not OW' thread, and thought...the reason no-one wants to be lied to is because it shows that the MM disrespects you (or the W or whoever). So if lying is just a symptom of disrespect, shouldn't the bigger question be 'does he respect me'? THAT in my opinion is a more important question. It is possible to lie AND be honest with a partner and still be disrespecting them via other actions. What do other posters think?
pureinheart Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I was reading the 'MM lies to the W but not OW' thread, and thought...the reason no-one wants to be lied to is because it shows that the MM disrespects you (or the W or whoever). So if lying is just a symptom of disrespect, shouldn't the bigger question be 'does he respect me'? THAT in my opinion is a more important question. It is possible to lie AND be honest with a partner and still be disrespecting them via other actions. What do other posters think? I think you are on to something, and I agree with this. This is my main concern, with anyone I would choose to have in my life:)
silverplanets Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I was reading the 'MM lies to the W but not OW' thread, and thought...the reason no-one wants to be lied to is because it shows that the MM disrespects you (or the W or whoever). So if lying is just a symptom of disrespect, shouldn't the bigger question be 'does he respect me'? THAT in my opinion is a more important question. It is possible to lie AND be honest with a partner and still be disrespecting them via other actions. What do other posters think? There are many examples where people lie out of "love and caring" , such as adult children choosing not to tell a terminally ill parent that they are dying, parents telling their children Santa exists etc In all these cases someone makes a decision to lie based on what they believe is best for another person. Any half intelligent cheating spouse knows to sell the same story ... "I didn't tell you because I didn't want to hurt you " .. etc etc .... and so they don't sell it as a lack of respect they sell it as evidence of love. In the same manner they sell staying with their partner as "love" as well ... "I'm such a good father/mother that I have to stay" ... again, look how good/loving I am. The scary thing, ime, is how damn good they are at positioning all this. Maybe the real question is not about "do they respect you"... or (shock horror to the MP) not even about the MP at all .... maybe the real question for the OW/OM is simply "what inside me, as a person, is keeping me in this situation? What specifically am I, as a person , getting from it? What void is it filling. Am I lonely? Am I bored at work? Am I unhappy? Do I not think I will find anyone to love all of me? Is my childhood hanging over me? Am I jealous? Is this symptomatic of a history of poor choices ? Why do I not think I deserve decent/better .... etc etc ....." It's simply a poor choice of relationship as far as the OW/OM goes and therefore the question for the OW/OM is simply to understand what is driving that bad choice from within them. If the OW/OM isn't after a relationship and is just taking the sex/attention then similarly the question is simply "Why, as an adult, do I need to get attention this way?" In my view, what the MP does, says, yadda, yadda, blah blah, is entirely irrelevant to this question. The only person whom the MP's actions, words, yadda yadda, blah blah, is relevant to is the MP. They need to listen to themselves and work out what it is within them that needs working on. Hope this makes some kind of sense ... Chris
Hazyhead Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) I agree with Chris that the more important point is, lying or other disrespectful issue aside, why do we allow ourselves to be treated that way? However, I do think you raise a good point Torrance, and my response would be that there are many types of disrespectful behaviour. But. it isn't as easy as saying that if such-a-person lies to me they must have no respect for me, because there are lies that are sometimes told in the best interests o the receiver. In my opinion, it all boils down to the intentions of the person, do they have your best interests at heart, or simply their own? If someone who is supposed to love you puts themselves before you then that is, in a way, disrespectful. If they willingly do something that they know will cause you hurt, then that is disrespectful. In most affairs (I say 'most' because I don't want to generalise, but I sure can't think of an example when it wouldn't apply) both OW and wife are treated disrespectfully by the WS, by it's very nature. The difference might be that the OW is more aware of how they are treated than the BS and so are the one more responsible for allowing that to be bestowed upon them. So, if we know we are being treated in such a way, isn't he bigger crime that we disrespect ourselves by allowing it? (phew, I've never said the word 'disrespect' so much in a few sentences. Need to vary my vocabulary!) Edited July 16, 2010 by Hazyhead
OWoman Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I was reading the 'MM lies to the W but not OW' thread, and thought...the reason no-one wants to be lied to is because it shows that the MM disrespects you (or the W or whoever). So if lying is just a symptom of disrespect, shouldn't the bigger question be 'does he respect me'? THAT in my opinion is a more important question. It is possible to lie AND be honest with a partner and still be disrespecting them via other actions. What do other posters think? I agree with your premise. But I'm wondering if it isn't a little more nuanced. On of my xMMs was married to a shrink who was an expert in her field. He had enormous respect for her professionally, but he clearly lacked respect for the M (by engaging in the A). Did this undermine his respect for her, or was he still able to respect aspects of her (her professional expertise) while disrespecting her as a W? IDK.
OWoman Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 In most affairs (I say 'most' because I don't want to generalise, but I sure can't think of an example when it wouldn't apply) both OW and wife are treated disrespectfully by the WS, by it's very nature. I was never disrespected in an A. I was prioritised, lavished with everything I wanted (with the prospect of more on offer should I have wanted) and always in complete control of the situation - but most importantly, my space, time and boundaries were respected and no demands were made on me (unlike Rs with SGs where I felt situationally violated by the constant expectations and demands for more than I was willing or prepared to give). I think it all depends on what you want out of a R.
OWoman Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 If the OW/OM isn't after a relationship and is just taking the sex/attention then similarly the question is simply "Why, as an adult, do I need to get attention this way?" I didn't want attention - had more than enough of that - I wanted sex. So the question would have been, "Why, as an adult, do I need to get sex this way?" Well, because other ways (paying for it from a sex worker, paying for it through the grinding demands of a R, paying for it through the risks and effort of the ONS scene, paying for it through the horror and tackiness of the online hook-up scene, etc) involved far higher costs and far lower benefits, and didn't suit my lifestyle.
greengoddess Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I was never disrespected in an A. I was prioritised, lavished with everything I wanted (with the prospect of more on offer should I have wanted) and always in complete control of the situation - but most importantly, my space, time and boundaries were respected and no demands were made on me (unlike Rs with SGs where I felt situationally violated by the constant expectations and demands for more than I was willing or prepared to give). I think it all depends on what you want out of a R. An affair in and of itself is being in a disrespectful situation. There is nothing respectful about having to hide your relationship and not be happily loving out in the open.
Hazyhead Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I think it all depends on what you want out of a R. True, but you know OW that you are an exception here. Even if there are OW who are only in it for the sex, or whatever, they have to do so mostly on their AP's time. In any case, disrespectful behaviour is far from exclusive to affair style relationships. My brother-in-law spends more time at the pub than he does with his family and even though my sister doesn't like it, she accepts it. Therefore I feel she is as responsible herself, though I fully sympathise.
Hazyhead Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 True, but you know OW that you are an exception here. Even if there are OW who are only in it for the sex, or whatever, they have to do so mostly on their AP's time. In any case, disrespectful behaviour is far from exclusive to affair style relationships. My brother-in-law spends more time at the pub than he does with his family and even though my sister doesn't like it, she accepts it. Therefore I feel she is as responsible herself, though I fully sympathise. Gosh! I was going to say that I agreed with the statement I quoted, sorry (got distracted), it is about what you want as well.
OWoman Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 An affair in and of itself is being in a disrespectful situation. There is nothing respectful about having to hide your relationship and not be happily loving out in the open. Our R was never hidden. Only the BW did not know - and she didn't believe it even when told. We were certainly happily loving out in the open - at a friend's birthday party recently one of the "happy days of yore" anecdotes wheeled out was about my H and I getting told off in a local pub for being TOO loving out in the open ...
whichwayisup Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 Maybe the real question is not about "do they respect you"... or (shock horror to the MP) not even about the MP at all .... maybe the real question for the OW/OM is simply "what inside me, as a person, is keeping me in this situation? What specifically am I, as a person , getting from it? What void is it filling. Am I lonely? Am I bored at work? Am I unhappy? Do I not think I will find anyone to love all of me? Is my childhood hanging over me? Am I jealous? Is this symptomatic of a history of poor choices ? Why do I not think I deserve decent/better .... etc etc ....." I agree with this.. The one thing though is, most who are in affairs probably don't think of the points you brought up objectively, as they are inlove. Our R was never hidden. Only the BW did not know - and she didn't believe it even when told. To me, that just seems downright intentional and cruel. Everybody knew except her. By doing that to his wife, he was making a total fool of her! I know you're with him now - Keep in mind what he's done to her, you know what he's capable of ... How good he is at lying and deceiving... I'm just sayin'!
bentnotbroken Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 Isn't the whole premise of A's based on the disrespect of the BS and the marriage? So if you are talking about who gets respect from a liar, is it possible?
Fieldsofgold Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) Isn't the whole premise of A's based on the disrespect of the BS and the marriage? So if you are talking about who gets respect from a liar, is it possible? Exactly! To me, it IS all about respect - if nothing else - SELF-RESPECT! I have more respect for myself than to get involved with someone who would cheat on his wife. To me, a man who doesn't have the b@lls to either honor his commitment to his wife, or get out of the commitment without cheating first, has no b@lls, and isn't man enough for me. I could never respect such a weasley little man. Edited July 16, 2010 by Fieldsofgold
Fieldsofgold Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 Our R was never hidden. Only the BW did not know - and she didn't believe it even when told. We were certainly happily loving out in the open - at a friend's birthday party recently one of the "happy days of yore" anecdotes wheeled out was about my H and I getting told off in a local pub for being TOO loving out in the open ... I could never respect a man who could openly make a mockery of a woman to whom he was still married.
GreenEyedLady Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 It is possible to lie AND be honest with a partner and still be disrespecting them via other actions. What do other posters think? Of course it is possible. The realm of possibility is huge. The reality is what matters. I think it boils down to a lot of WS's disrespecting themselves. They can have a good M if they put work into it; they can divorce and get out of the M. But instead they stay in limbo because they don't respect themselves and then respect themselves even less when they see they are hurting the ones they love most. IMHO GEL
silktricks Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 I was reading the 'MM lies to the W but not OW' thread, and thought...the reason no-one wants to be lied to is because it shows that the MM disrespects you (or the W or whoever). So if lying is just a symptom of disrespect, shouldn't the bigger question be 'does he respect me'? THAT in my opinion is a more important question. It is possible to lie AND be honest with a partner and still be disrespecting them via other actions. What do other posters think? IMO there are different levels of respect. There is respecting someone as a person - knowing they are intelligent, capable, etc... and then there is respecting someone as a spouse. Those are not (again, my opinion) the same thing. I can respect my husband in the abstract (intelligent, good provider, problem solver, board certified, etc) but still be angry with him or become infatuated with another man. The respect I hold him in as a person does not necessarily translate into treating him well and respecting him as a spouse. JMO
bentnotbroken Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 Of course it is possible. The realm of possibility is huge. The reality is what matters. I think it boils down to a lot of WS's disrespecting themselves. They can have a good M if they put work into it; they can divorce and get out of the M. But instead they stay in limbo because they don't respect themselves and then respect themselves even less when they see they are hurting the ones they love most. IMHO GEL This has always been my thought. If you don't respect yourself, there is no way you respect anyone else. For some I also believe it is a sense of entitlement(with Mr. Messy as my reference). It was always there, I mistook it for confidence in my young years. I now know that it was his superior nature, put others down to make himself feel better. In his case, so AP don't have a cow, I don't think he respected OW either, certainly not her family. I say this because she wasn't the first. Some one the things he told me later was[QUOTE]..."he helped her(one of the ow) get even with her H for cheating on her:eek:" No respect. How do you respect yourself and allow someone to use you punish another? Actually he used that same reason for the last OW...hmmmm not too bright is he:laugh:?
Fieldsofgold Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 Of course it is possible. The realm of possibility is huge. The reality is what matters. I think it boils down to a lot of WS's disrespecting themselves. They can have a good M if they put work into it; they can divorce and get out of the M. But instead they stay in limbo because they don't respect themselves and then respect themselves even less when they see they are hurting the ones they love most. IMHO GEL This is a good post. I would add that they are disrespecting both the W and the OW by not making that choice. And the OW and W (if she knows) are disrespecting themselves by gettig into/staying in such a situation. I am not condemning wives for staying - if I had a house full of kids and no visible means of support, I might very well stay, too. I'm just saying it is demeaning and disrespectful to both the OW and the W for the WS to knowingly put them in the situation, and disrespectful to themselves to stay in such a situation.
Silly_Girl Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 IMO there are different levels of respect. There is respecting someone as a person - knowing they are intelligent, capable, etc... and then there is respecting someone as a spouse. Those are not (again, my opinion) the same thing. I can respect my husband in the abstract (intelligent, good provider, problem solver, board certified, etc) but still be angry with him or become infatuated with another man. The respect I hold him in as a person does not necessarily translate into treating him well and respecting him as a spouse. JMO Absolutely. I think one can show respect someone by virtue of their position (boss, spouse, parent) but not neccessarily feel a personal respect for them. I think that in these relationships often the straying partner has some respect for their spouse because they ARE their spouse, so they are discreet and keep things normal on the surface and appear co-operative and polite. But underneath they do not respect them as a person and can ignore the blatant disrecpect of their actions and the hurt their actions may actually cause for the other party.
OWoman Posted July 16, 2010 Posted July 16, 2010 To me, that just seems downright intentional and cruel. Everybody knew except her. By doing that to his wife, he was making a total fool of her! I know you're with him now - Keep in mind what he's done to her, you know what he's capable of ... How good he is at lying and deceiving... I'm just sayin'! It's because he sucks so at lying and deceiving that everybody knew... He's an open book. The reason she didn't know is because they lived such separate lives and she had absolutely no interest in his. And, when he told her, she didn't believe him. Nor was he the only one who tried to tell her. She'd been sent anonymous mail that she rubbished, been approached by a colleague who she brushed off, and told by a neighbour, that she ignored. She still didn't believe it when he and I were living together, despite the evidence, until eventually she could no longer deny it. I know that if I become complacent and take him for granted, stop caring and noticing and being interested, the same thing could happen to me. If , I neglected my R, I would deserve the fall-out of its demise. That's life.
Author torranceshipman Posted July 17, 2010 Author Posted July 17, 2010 Interesting answers...my take is that a MM can admire the achievements of an OW or W in, say, the work field, but there is a complete absence of respect if he is having an A with someone else. I do not think it is possible in any way to partly respect someone - you either respect them or you don't...
silverplanets Posted July 17, 2010 Posted July 17, 2010 I didn't want attention - had more than enough of that - I wanted sex. So the question would have been, "Why, as an adult, do I need to get sex this way?" Well, because other ways (paying for it from a sex worker, paying for it through the grinding demands of a R, paying for it through the risks and effort of the ONS scene, paying for it through the horror and tackiness of the online hook-up scene, etc) involved far higher costs and far lower benefits, and didn't suit my lifestyle. Appreciate the honesty and difficult to reply to this one without knowing the exact situation ... Am wondering perhaps if the real question would not then have been "Why choose to live a lifestyle that pre-cludes meaningfull relationships?" .. I guess the point i am trying to make is "why do I need to get sex this way" is probably only the tip of the iceberg question ... one would need to keep going down to get to the root ... be safe Chris
fooled once Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 I could never respect a man who could openly make a mockery of a woman to whom he was still married. Yep! Of course it is possible. The realm of possibility is huge. The reality is what matters. I think it boils down to a lot of WS's disrespecting themselves. They can have a good M if they put work into it; they can divorce and get out of the M. But instead they stay in limbo because they don't respect themselves and then respect themselves even less when they see they are hurting the ones they love most. IMHO GEL Yep! Of course, some people (in general) will have an excuse for everything. But bottom line is, cheaters don't care who they hurt as long as their needs are met; and some women are fine with being disrespected, because they believe the baloney being told to them because they are just so in love.
Mimolicious Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Of course it is possible. The realm of possibility is huge. The reality is what matters. I think it boils down to a lot of WS's disrespecting themselves. They can have a good M if they put work into it; they can divorce and get out of the M. But instead they stay in limbo because they don't respect themselves and then respect themselves even less when they see they are hurting the ones they love most. IMHO GEL Right on GEL! Other factors play part as well. People sometimes are just lost and confuzed then they get all trapped up. Snow balling it all the way till someone calls it quit or they get caught. Respect may have not been there to begin with.
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