BohemianLikeYou Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 I was talking to a friend recently about relationships and relationship dynamics. We have a mutual friend who has been single for quite a long time now, and he always complains that 'nice guys finish last'. Now, he is certainly a very nice guy, but I personally think the problem he has is that he's also an extremely passive guy. He seems to think being passive is the same thing as being nice, and my friend and I agreed we really don't see it that way. I was married to just such a guy, and it ended badly, to the point I have a really hard time tolerating severe passivity in anyone these days. I don't think it counts as 'nice' to always say "Well, what do YOU want to do?" every single time a question about what to do or where to go comes up. To me, there's being a considerate person, but then there is simply passing all decision making and responsibility to someone else, and I just think it's so unattractive. I think 'nice' is listening to someone, getting to know their likes and dislikes, asking them where they'd like to go sometimes but also taking the reins and surprising them on others (without double and triple checking with them if they'd like it first). Like men or women who just behave as if their afraid of making clear choices and shrink back from things. I understand being shy, I understand the desire to be liked, I really do. I just feel it's an issue a person needs to tackle and work on themselves first and foremost, leaning on others when they need to but not expecting others to carry them or constantly pick up slack. I don't consider that 'nice' at all. I'm not saying I can't stand shy people or quieter people, not at all. It's the passing the buck thing I have a really hard time with. Disguising their inability/refusal to deal with their fears of being assertive as 'being a nice guy/girl'. Oh, and on the same note, I have a hard time with passive people acting like someone is 'mean' or a ball-busting beeyatch just because they take charge and make clear, concise decisions quickly. With some passive people it's like you have no choice but to eventually become a tyrant to them since they refuse to make decisions and be assertive about their wants, needs, etc. Basically, they'll resent the assertive person for getting everything - meanwhile they themselves have never openly expressed their wishes, needs, wants, concerns, problems, etc. Anyone else relate to this kind of thing and what'dya think about it?
sugarmomma Posted July 14, 2010 Posted July 14, 2010 My exh was like that and always took a victim mentality. It really made me lose respect for him. He was spineless and would pass all the big decisions off to me. One time we went for a time share meeting and he watched me say no to the salesmen over and over. He almost bought a timeshare because he couldn't say no or why he didn't want it. So glad to be rid of him since it was like having another child.
Author BohemianLikeYou Posted July 14, 2010 Author Posted July 14, 2010 My exh was like that and always took a victim mentality. It really made me lose respect for him. He was spineless and would pass all the big decisions off to me. One time we went for a time share meeting and he watched me say no to the salesmen over and over. He almost bought a timeshare because he couldn't say no or why he didn't want it. So glad to be rid of him since it was like having another child. Wow! We could have both been married to the same guy! I laughed when I read that because that was definitely my ex. We went to look at a used car once, and he didn't feel right about the car but the sales guy kept working him and working him. If I had not been there to stand-up to the sales guy and say "No, we're not buying, we'll sleep on it", he would have come home with this hunk of crap. My only regret is that I did not listen to myself when I thought of getting out before we got married. He got really upset when I started doing my own thing again and stopped mollycoddling him all the time. Three months of me writing full time and he started a new job, met some girl who flirted with him and fawned all over him, stayed out all night with her after I got upset at him, then he moved out to be with her over one night. She called him a total of fifteen times that night and sent him about 6-8 text messages while we were talking. After it was all over, one of the first things I thought was "Wow, he just took his balls out of my purse and dropped them into hers". I never called him like that or put him on a leash, maybe that's what he wanted! haha
freestyle Posted July 14, 2010 Posted July 14, 2010 After it was all over, one of the first things I thought was "Wow, he just took his balls out of my purse and dropped them into hers". I never called him like that or put him on a leash, maybe that's what he wanted! haha *********************************** how much you wanna bet that she gets sick of him after a couple months, too? The more I study about P/A behaviors, the more I see it as a covert form of control.It does get old, really fast. I'm starting to recognize some of those traits in my SO, ---and there's times I want to yell, "Show some initiative, d*mmit!" And I'm not a violent person, and I don't yell---but I'm getting to the point where I want to. aaaaaaargh! BTW, Bohemian, your first post was spot-on......the passsive types do tend to label assertive people unfairly.
freestyle Posted July 14, 2010 Posted July 14, 2010 there's some great articles and letters about P/A --phony nice guys on this site..... http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/martyr.shtml
Enchanted Girl Posted July 14, 2010 Posted July 14, 2010 I actually struggle in this area, but I'm better than I used to be. I, at least, can express my opinions about things if they are different than other people's during a discussion, but I still have trouble expressing myself when I am angry. Anyway, from the viewpoint of someone who has struggled with being overly passive ... My passivity came from my family and some friends. Growing up, my family criticized me every time I got angry or ranted or had a strong opinion that differed from theirs. They said I was being bossy and controlling and I learned to suppress all of those feelings because of it. It's true, passive people do tend to resent people who are not the same as them. Ever since I've allowed myself to have opinions and make choices, I have been much less resentful to others. I was resentful because it didn't make sense to me, I suppose. I had this fence around me, telling me how to behave and no one else did. I didn't get it and thought something was wrong with them and not me for not having the same fence and not taking me into consideration the same way. But the past year or two, I've realized that you can have opinions and be yourself and still be a nice person. It's about being considerate of others, not ceasing to exist as a person. Most people will notice you and value you more for your personality and if you don't have a personality because you're suppressing everything that makes you you to make everyone else happy, then they won't even notice you. I don't know. I agree, but don't think passive people are disgusting people. They are just severely misguided and I think there's too many other misguided people out there teaching people that speaking up and being themselves at all makes them a horrible person. We're in the age of accepting others and appreciating them for who they are and loving everyone, and I think certain people just take those feelings too far and think it means that they need to cease existing as a human being in order to make room for everyone else's differences. Also, I hate how everyone likes to say,"You're so close-minded" or "You are so stubborn" to someone just because they have an opinion. So many people do it and it's a lot what led me to be so passive. I thought having an opinion and sticking to it meant I was a horrible person.
Author BohemianLikeYou Posted July 14, 2010 Author Posted July 14, 2010 (edited) @Freestyle - Holy crap, I could have written the letter in the link you posted, that's amazing. I understand about the yelling thing. I remember he used to do those really sneaky, underhanded things (he was also a narcissist to boot) and it hurt so badly. He'd demote me in his affections on a whim, 'forget' to call when he said he would, mess up things that were important to me and then put on that "I'm such a jerk" routine to gain sympathy. Egh! I would start out calm and simply talking like "When you did ______, I felt very _______ and I really want to talk about it". I tried all these techniques to make conflict easier for HIM, mistakenly thinking he just needed some room to feel alright about conflicts. It wasn't that at all, he just outright refused to take personal responsibility and would twist my words, bring up stuff from our past that had nothing to do with that we were talking about, imply that I was paranoid and crazy, until sometimes I admit I definitely did yell (I screamed more than a couple of times, I won't lie). Then it was like he got what he wanted - I'd played right into his hands and become 'screeching psycho lady'. Then I'd feel guilty and ask myself what I needed to work on, what things I could improve, etc. Looking back now, I was so inexperienced relationship-wise and holy crap I see with so much more clarity where I just kept coming back for more of that and did not get myself out of a toxic situation. I have learned A LOT. Last I knew, he was engaged to this girl and became engaged before our divorce was even finalized. Thing is, she knew my ex was married, went after him anyway, and kicked her long term boyfriend out of their apartment to take my ex in. She and my ex were actually upset that I didn't let my ex stay in the house over that weekend while her ditched boyfriend moved out - so my ex had to take his stuff to her mother's house. I only ever read one text on my ex's phone the whole 4 years we were together. After he dropped the bomb and started packing, the 5th or 6th text of the night from her came in. I grabbed the phone and she had written "I love you soooooooo much! I'm so effing excited!". This after they'd known each other for a total of three weeks. So, I kind of figure they will screw each other over eventually. I don't know your SO, but I really hope he's not putting you through the wringer too bad with that kind of stuff. I know I was ready to dump my ex a couple of times but just never did it. I kept thinking I had to do more to change, or I had to be more understanding, or I was picking on him too much because he was so good at being sweet, unassuming, and putting on this mask of 'devoted BF'. Looking back now, I realize I spent most of my time with him in a perpetual state of insecurity that I was going to feel more and more hurt by him at any moment. On one hand I am not sure I'd go back and change anything because of all the amazing stuff I've learned on the other side, but on the other sometimes I just hate that I spent two extra years letting myself be mistreated. Like I said though, my ex was a narcissist on top of the P/A stuff which is a particularly nasty combo. In short, I hope your SO isn't quite so much a d-bag as mine and I really hope you're not suffering every day. I really do. -------------------- @Enchanted. I understand where you're coming from. My family is a lot like my ex actually, I grew up with passive-aggressive narcissists who were all about appearances, control, manipulation, and money. Not only were you looked at as a weirdo if you showed any boisterous joy or happiness (you would be knocked down a peg for being 'too happy'), but it was an unspoken rule you did not express any negative emotions or take issue with ANYONE. If you got upset about anything, even as a young child you would be ignored and affection would be taken away immediately and indefinitely. I was bullied in my home and then, eventually, bullied in school. I shrunk away for years and was terrified to get upset at anyone. Logically, I kept thinking "If someone corners me and gets rough with me, I'm just defending myself", but that emotional block went so deep that I just felt nauseous since being assertive basically equaled a crime in my home, like it was something that made you a very bad person. This just came to a head when I was around 13 something just crossed over in me. I did not expect to be validated but I was tired of being kicked around I guess. In my home, my family pretty much made me a target of mockery for my 'out of control temper' (meaning, I actually opened my mouth and spoke my mind). They blamed my absentee father's genes for my 'instability' and all that. All this hurt of course, but I dunno, I just stopped playing that game they played and expressed myself. I admit I went through a very angry phase and I was just an angry person until I learned how to get it right and just be assertive instead. Thing is, I know not everyone had that same experience growing up in similar situations. I've honestly got a lot of time for people who are shy and I don't dislike someone just because they're of a quiet nature, if they're accomodating types, or are just socially anxious. That's a whole different ballgame to me. There's just a difference. There are people I've met who are just gentler, quieter folks and I respect their approach to life very much. I even admire it a lot of times. I give people a chance, and I am so conscious of making sure I do not compare all passive people to my family members or ex-husband. I've made that mistake of convicting people for the crimes of people wholly unconnected to them and it felt awful. I endeavor to take everyone I meet on a person-to-person basis. Because I really do understand the damage inflicted when you grow up in a family of bullies, and basically treat their children like bad kids just for having feelings. It's that emotional abuse that is just as destructive (sometimes moreso) than physical abuse. I've met people who just struggle with assertiveness and standing up for themselves because they've been taught that's bad, they literally shake if they are put in a position of defending themselves or others. I've been there and I don't think it makes them weak, or wrong, not at all. It's the passive people who have turned those experiences around into something ugly and basically just continue the same abuse cycle that I have a problem with. The ones who just want to play victim and want to find someone who will allow them make excuse after excuse as to why they cannot change or be an adult. Stuff like that. Hope that made sense! Edited July 14, 2010 by BohemianLikeYou context
Joe10 Posted July 27, 2010 Posted July 27, 2010 Well, first of all, passive & active people are complementary. It's logical. Some men are more passive, some women are more active. They are often labeled 'l*sers' and 'sl*ts' at school. Notice the double standards. It's ok for a boy to jump from one bed to another, not a girl. It's not ok for a boy to be passive but there is nothing wrong with a girl operating in a similar fashion. Now I see thread poster feels under attack, and plays victim card 'I was bullied', notice the double standards. She can, her ex husband not. Need I say more? Yeah I know, I should have become a lawyer.
Author BohemianLikeYou Posted July 31, 2010 Author Posted July 31, 2010 Now I see thread poster feels under attack, and plays victim card 'I was bullied', notice the double standards. She can, her ex husband not. Need I say more? Yeah I know, I should have become a lawyer. With all due respect,...Huh? Did you read anything I wrote? I said I was bullied to illustrate I understand how hard it can be to deal with conflict. I think there is a difference between having a really hard time with conflict because of emotional reasons and refusing to deal with it simply because you don't want to and want everyone else to take the blame. There's a difference. I tried really hard to be considerate of my ex, but I wasn't going to 100% invalidate my feelings because he couldn't deal with making mistakes or having to take some responsibility for himself. I was patient for years, when I would be upset at something I made a point to approach him calmly and not attack him, I made a point to own my feelings and say "When you did this, I felt _______" rather than ever saying "You MADE me feel _________". I tried all sorts of things because I respected it when he said he had problems with conflict. After a few years though, it became clear he was using it as a get out of jail free card. He wanted a relationship without having to take personal responsibility. I'm not sure anyone who hasn't been through this can understand. If you're with someone who refuses to make choices, who refuses to take any responsibilities, who always passes the choice making and decision making to you - it gets to the point you have no choice but to become the overbearing 'bully' (or, you can choose not to choose just like the other person is doing and nothing gets done - but with a passive person YOU'RE still the one to blame). Was I bullied? Yes Was I too afraid to assert myself for awhile? Yes Was I too passive for awhile? Yes Did I realize this placed an unfair burden on those around me? Yes. Did I take care of my own responsibility to change? Yes, indeed. I've been talking about the men who use passivity to remain immature and not have to take adult responsibilities in relationships and life itself. A lot of people have difficulty with conflict for a lot of different reasons. There's a difference between the people who admit this and work with it, and the people who just want the world to let them use excuses to play victim so they never have to do anything they don't want to.
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