Men Adopting Female Behaviours

[sumdude]

I'll break it down for you, including the stoicism:

• Over-emotionalism.
  
• Whining.
  
• A lack of initiative.
  
• Irrational thinking.
  
• Mirroring.
  
• Next in a bitchy rather than shoulder shrugging way.
  
• Victim attitude.
  
• Disney princess expectations.
  
• Can't stand fat women but wants to be accepted for all of their flaws.
  
• Wants to be taken care of and protected.
  

AND worst of all:

• Passivity.
  

 

These are clearly traits that many women find unattractive in a man.

 

I'm giggling a bit thinking about this but historically, 99% of men were raised by their mothers since their fathers were too busy raiding the neighbors for food.

 

As well, consider the rest of the animal kingdom. Have you ever seen a pansy leopard or elephant? In both these animals, the father provides his sperm and wanders off.

 

Brilliant! In fact considering the number of women I know who want children and say they're perfectly willing to be single mothers.. plus the number of women who walk away from relatively good marriages. Add the fact that women are now capable of providing for the family on their own? then there's the cougar movement..

 

Seems to me that the best path for a man in this society which has changed is to be in the best possible physical condition and be the one to provide good genetic material (and a damn good time) to the women who want to raise kids. Just have to wait for familial law to catch up with the direction things are going. Never mind a pre-nup how about a pre sex agreement.

Edited July 11, 2010 by sumdude

[You'reasian]

These are clearly traits that many women find unattractive in a man.

 

 

 

Brilliant! In fact considering the number of women I know who want children and say they're perfectly willing to be single mothers.. plus the number of women who walk away from relatively good marriages. Add the fact that women are now capable of providing for the family on their own? then there's the cougar movement..

 

Seems to me that the best path for a man in this society which has changed is to be in the best possible physical condition and be the one to provide good genetic material (and a damn good time) to the women who want to raise kids. Just have to wait for familial law to catch up with the direction things are going. Never mind a pre-nup how about a pre sex agreement.

 

You're right lol

[sally4sara]

Seems to me that the best path for a man in this society which has changed is to be in the best possible physical condition and be the one to provide good genetic material (and a damn good time) to the women who want to raise kids. Just have to wait for familial law to catch up with the direction things are going. Never mind a pre-nup how about a pre sex agreement.

 

Oh yeah, I don't see a problem with a guy who chooses this path for himself. There have always been men who have chosen this path for themselves.

The problem?

 

They never have the sack to voice their M.O. to the women they hook up with. Most commonly being the cockroach of the dating world; having to operate within deceit. Being this way would not get my disrespect if they let their intent be known because when it comes down to it - they lack the character to be good fathers.

My dad is this kind of man. Setting up franchises under their guise of wanting to be a family man. Once the kid is born he disappears and lets the woman he married handle the divorce procedure in his absence. Its crappy, but I suspect it would have been crappier still if he'd been in my life. I have a whole string of half siblings by him.

[sumdude]

Oh yeah, I don't see a problem with a guy who chooses this path for himself. There have always been men who have chosen this path for themselves.

The problem?

 

They never have the sack to voice their M.O. to the women they hook up with. Most commonly being the cockroach of the dating world; having to operate within deceit. Being this way would not get my disrespect if they let their intent be known because when it comes down to it - they lack the character to be good fathers.

My dad is this kind of man. Setting up franchises under their guise of wanting to be a family man. Once the kid is born he disappears and lets the woman he married handle the divorce procedure in his absence. Its crappy, but I suspect it would have been crappier still if he'd been in my life. I have a whole string of half siblings by him.

Try not to take this the wrong way.

I agree that if the original intent is to deceive than that is wrong.

 

However...

 

Thing is that everyone is responsible for their choices in life. The women in these scenarios made their choices. I should have known better than to marry my ex-wife who turned out to be a lair and cheat. The flags were there.

 

I see it constantly. In fact it almost seems to me that the more intelligent a woman is the more likely she will fall for the player. Go ahead and flame me but this has been years of observation. No it's not across the board but very common.

[Mr White]

Is it odd that I think this thread was inspired by a night of no sleep and a crying baby boy?

 

I hope you're wrong. Imagine the same amount of condescention, self-righteousness, and lack of desire or ability for empathy that will be unleashed on said baby boy once he is old enough to have rudimentary language and logic skills.

[sally4sara]

Please don't take this the wrong way.

I agree that if the original intent is to deceive than that is wrong.

 

Thing is that everyone is responsible for their choices in life. The women in these scenarios made their choices. I should have known better than to marry my ex-wife who turned out to be a lair and cheat. The flags were there.

 

I see it constantly. In fact it almost seems to me that the more intelligent a woman is the more likely she will fall for the player. Go ahead and flame me but this has been years of observation. No it's not across the board but very common.

 

I think it is more case of how honest people are easier to con because they don't place value on lying. We expect the behavior of others that we know WE'D hold. If you never think about screwing someone over, you don't often think of being screwed over.

 

With my father, he is always much older than the women he marries. He utilizes their lack of experience in being screwed over to his own gain.

He leaves after or just before the kid is born and never pays child support. He owns patents and has connections with the Avengers. One of my older siblings found me and had been hunting for our dad. He had a list as long as my arm of known addresses our dad has had.

 

Know what his life choices have gotten him?

 

He moves three or four times a year (when he is not married ) and is never in the same house as the person he marries for more than a year. Yeah, a year. Just long enough to get her knocked up and ensure she does not abort. He wants the kids to be created! But its given him a life of unease because any one of his kids could find him and sue for lack of support even as an adult. Seeing as he is now almost 70, I'd call that a sad existence. I know there are people who might admire him. I just pity him, find him disgusting, and am appalled that he thinks he is or has something so awesome that we are relentlessly looking to find him.

[sally4sara]

I hope you're wrong. Imagine the same amount of condescention, self-righteousness, and lack of desire or ability for empathy that will be unleashed on said baby boy once he is old enough to have rudimentary language and logic skills.

 

I was not implying anything so sinister. Only that a lack of sleep and new mother frustration can make one temporarily impaired in their thoughts. TBF isn't prone to being so offensive to both men and women as she has done in this thread.

[Taramere]

Thing is that everyone is responsible for their choices in life. The women in these scenarios made their choices. I should have known better than to marry my ex-wife who turned out to be a lair and cheat. The flags were there.

 

You can always see the flags with hindsight.....and there are always going to be flags attached to every situation. To have a relationship, you have to take a risk and trust. Not an easy thing to do, and unfortunately this is a scenario in which trust will often be breached. Considering the high proportion of people who cheat, I think it's unfair to blame the person who is cheated on for the choice they made.

 

You might have a choice of three people who are interested in you and whose interest you return...and there's a fair chance (human nature being what it is) that all three will be liable to cheat on you at some point. I know it's not popular here to take that pessimistic view, but people are often much weaker than they like to admit when temptation is put their way.

 

I see it constantly. In fact it almost seems to me that the more intelligent a woman is the more likely she will fall for the player. Go ahead and flame me but this has been years of observation. No it's not across the board but very common.

 

Are smarter people more likely to get cheated on, or are they more likely to find out about it/work a confession out of the wayward partner? I would suggest that it's harder to cheat on a smart person and avoid detection. Hard to get away with lying to them when their instincts are alerted and they start to ask awkward questions or present opportunities for the cheat to come clean about what they've done.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Taramere

[sumdude]

I think it is more case of how honest people are easier to con because they don't place value on lying. We expect the behavior of others that we know WE'D hold. If you never think about screwing someone over, you don't often think of being screwed over.

 

 

Might have to agree to a point. I certainly was naive and am still learning life lessons the hard way.

 

To go on about male role models. I was brought up in an old school home by immigrants. Immigrants who survived hellish things during WWII by being smart and sticking together as a family. My parents, all of my extended family and most of their contemporaries in their culture married for life. It wasn't until my generation born in the U.S. that it changed. The role models I was given worked great... 40 years ago. In current society a lot of it just doesn't apply anymore.

 

So I'm learning from.. in away.. the women I've been in relationships with. Or I should say I'm learning from those experiences.. pain is a very good teacher.

[sally4sara]

The role models I was given worked great... 40 years ago. In current society a lot of it just doesn't apply anymore.

 

So I'm learning from.. in away.. the women I've been in relationships with. Or I should say I'm learning from those experiences.. pain is a very good teacher.

 

Its not that those role model relationships have gone obsolete. Its that those relationships were not often about both people's emotional needs being met. Nor did they always allow both people to explore ways to be the best version of themselves they could be.

Men were guided to making a family and being a provider. Women were guided to keep their needs silent as long as the man they were with filled the role of provider. A man was able to seek out a career in line with his abilities and feel accomplished by that. If he needed a certain level of education for his chosen path, he's find acceptance for that if his family could afford it.

Much more often families did not place value on their daughters education as she had one suitable role. This resulted in many women feeling this odd emptiness they could not name and felt they had no right to explore.

 

Once education standards for women improved and more career options opened to them, they had the language skills to voice a preference. And it was not always well received.

 

I hear your description of an old school family standard where they stuck together no matter what. I say it still plays out. The woman not being financially depending on her husband can still stay in her marriage no matter what as long as she feels he validates her input. Too often this concept of whoever earns the most has the final word, is what creates the divide. It is a child vs parent expectation. And what do we as children do? We drive towards our independence even if in doing so we have to strike out against our parents for a period of time to get there. If one spouse keeps placing themselves in the role of parent and their partner in the role of child, they should expect to be met with opposition. Instead, we get men who say "I did everything I was SUPPOSE to do and she just walked out on me".

 

Really? You did everything you were suppose to do? You were suppose to live as though you married a child?

[sumdude]

Its not that those role model relationships have gone obsolete. Its that those relationships were not often about both people's emotional needs being met. Nor did they always allow both people to explore ways to be the best version of themselves they could be.

 

Well, you're making a lot of assumptions about my family. I also think that there's been a slight rewriting of history in regards to what an old school family and relationship was. As if all wives and women were subjugated and given second class educations. This may have been the case sometimes but no way across the board. Technology has been the driving force in the changes regarding families, relationships and gender roles.

 

The women in my family were and are all very smart and strong. They were given plenty of power and decision making. Many are doctors and lawyers. My mother made the choice to be a stay at home mom though she had a career before. I do know that sometimes later in life she may have regretted it.... but she also never ever regretted being there for her children either.

 

Instead, we get men who say "I did everything I was SUPPOSE to do and she just walked out on me".

 

Really? You did everything you were suppose to do? You were suppose to live as though you married a child?

 

Is this somehow directed at me?

[carhill]

The women in my family were and are all very smart and strong. They were given plenty of power and decision making. Many are doctors and lawyers. My mother made the choice to be a stay at home mom though she had a career before.

 

From my readings, this sounds a lot like the OP's mother and why she was a great role model for the OP. IME, having had a SAHM, she was every bit as powerful and savvy as my father was. I saw her in action when he was dying, dealing with all sorts of challenges. In that time (their generation), in that place, they *both* made choices which made them a *team*. IMO, such choices, even if viewed differently by outsiders, are positive if the *team* believes them to be such. No one else lives their lives. The relevant behaviors, regardless of 'gender' assignment, are healthy for *them*. This is the essence of *compatibility* IMO.

 

You are a fortunate man to have such positive female role models in your life. Your people-picker has excellent examples to draw from. That's *healthy*. For awhile I believed differently. That era is over and done. Onward.

[threebyfate]

I think all I really made him feel was shame and perhaps humiliation. Which was the last thing I wanted, but it's so difficult with men. Sometimes it feels as though unless we lie to them/tell them endless ego-boosting half truths about how we view them, they think we're evil castrators. Yet if we're not honest with them, they won't trust us. I suppose men feel exactly the same way when we look to them for validation in areas where they don't feel they can honestly give that validation.

What's going on within this thread is a prime example of such.

[sally4sara]

Well, you're making a lot of assumptions about my family. I also think that there's been a slight rewriting of history in regards to what an old school family and relationship was. As if all wives and women were subjugated and given second class educations. This may have been the case sometimes but no way across the board. Technology has been the driving force in the changes regarding families, relationships and gender roles.

 

The women in my family were and are all very smart and strong. They were given plenty of power and decision making. Many are doctors and lawyers. My mother made the choice to be a stay at home mom though she had a career before. I do know that sometimes later in life she may have regretted it.... but she also never ever regretted being there for her children either.

 

I'm not talking about YOUR family. I have no idea what they were like. I do have a very old school style extended family. Out of the four generations I was exposed to, divorce was exceedingly rare.

When I was going through my own divorce, it was treated like a dirty secret. I bounced between feeling very guilty and a failure, and still recognizing just how completely wrecked my marriage was by my husband and that I could not stay with him. So I began to ask questions. How did my older counter parts keep their marriages together and be happy?

 

Know what I found? They were NOT happy. They just accepted it because their god and religion deemed it necessary. They felt they should not expect more than a partner that provided monetarily. To do so was to be greedy and prideful. I never knew how prevalent spousal abuse was in these "successful" marriages.

Now my grandmother is the full time caretaker of her abuser, stuck out in the middle of nowhere and her own children hate visiting because they experienced first hand the monster that my grandfather was. She is still isolated by him. The only good side to her current situation is that while his alzheimers has regressed him back to the violent man he once was, diabetes has left him as weak as a kitten. My last visit was awful.

He kept getting agitated and you could see the violent rage in his eyes even though he could physically do nothing about it. I did not see this as a child and was only made aware of the abuse in the last year and a half.

 

I am amazed she has the strength of character to not just tie his ass to a tree in the 40 acres of woods they live on and just leave him to the elements.

[sally4sara]

Is this somehow directed at me?

 

Not at all. Only a comment on the marriages where I knew both partners well enough to hear both sides and see that it wasn't one sided, yet the man sought to believe it was.

[stillafool]

It suddenly occurred to me why proverbial "nice guys" and PUAs are such a turn-off. They've adopted female behaviours.

 

Agree or disagree?

 

I have to agree. I have never seen so many overly emotional men in my life lately! Whew! Not only here on LS but in life. It's incredible. Did someone spike their water with hormones???????

[threebyfate]

I was not implying anything so sinister. Only that a lack of sleep and new mother frustration can make one temporarily impaired in their thoughts. TBF isn't prone to being so offensive to both men and women as she has done in this thread.

Nope, it has nothing to do with a lack of sleep or new motherhood. Read the thread title and you should be able to get an inkling of where the list was sourced from. In order to get through, you sometimes need to use a language that's understood.

[sally4sara]

Nope, it has nothing to do with a lack of sleep or new motherhood. Read the thread title and you should be able to get an inkling of where the list was sourced from. In order to get through, you sometimes need to use a language that's understood.

 

Sorry, those listed traits being deemed "female" behaviors makes it hard for someone who doesn't see women in this light to understand what you are trying to get across.

 

And the people who would see them as female behaviours are becoming so boring to me, I'm wondering what the point of getting through to them is in the end.

Let them find no success in mating and die out of the gene pool.

[Art_Critic]

Read the thread title and you should be able to get an inkling of where the list was sourced from.

 

ooh,ooh, pick me Mr. Kotter. I know, I Know, I know what thread it was sourced from.

[threebyfate]

And the people who would see them as female behaviours are becoming so boring to me, I'm wondering what the point of getting through to them is in the end.

Let them find no success in mating and die out of the gene pool.

I get these moments of actually wanting to help and have given up on the understanding route. Sometimes bluntness gets through. And for the chronic cases, nothing will ever get through.

 

ooh,ooh, pick me Mr. Kotter. I know, I Know, I know what thread it was sourced from.

Threads!

[sumdude]

Do this day women still want men to slay the proverbial dragons and be MEN. Which is fine. Problems arise when the dragons are imaginary or manufactured. I've run into this, I wouldn't slay the dragon but I didn't see a dragon. Yet somehow I was less of a man because of it?

 

Now I know to avoid this sort of woman. I'll call them the Crisis Queens.

[Enchanted Girl]

So, I just finished reading this entire thread and now here I am to comment on as much of it as I can remember.

 

The whole idea of a "nice guy" not getting any dates and saying that he doesn't get dates because he has a feminine personality, is WAY oversimplifying things. First of all, a lot of guys I've known who called themselves "nice guys" were not. They were jerks who treated women like crap and refused to analyze their own behaviors. Secondly, not all guys who call themselves a "nice guy" are jerks obviously. Some of them are genuinely nice people and my experience from seeing nice people in all different settings and genders is that people like to take advantage of nice people and not treat them well. People usually only like to treat people well who demand to be treated well and the problem with being a truly nice guy is you don't necessarily demand anything. Trust me, it's not only nice guys who get the bad end of things. It's also a lot of nice girls. I was definitely a nice girl a lot of my life and there wasn't men jumping at the chance of being my boyfriend or of even being nice to me at all. Most people see this as a disadvantage, but it actually isn't. It lets you weed through all the people who might date you for shallow reasons if you fit their shallow standards and be with someone who will truly appreciate you for who you are. Because those will be the only people who will notice you. All my friends who are not nice girls and play games and things have drama-filled romantic lives. I don't and I'm grateful for it. Also, some "nice guys" forget that it works both ways. Nice guys are often ignored by girls and nice girls are often ignored by guys. I have a friend who is truly a nice guy, BUT he only chases after really b1tchy, manipulative women. And then he gets confused when he's treated like crap. I've explained to him that the problem is that he picks out all the wrong women, but he doesn't get what I mean and continues doing so, even though I know some nice women who have had feelings for him that he completely ignored.

 

Anyway, I hate this whole idea that men are men only if they have certain personality traits. What makes a man a man is having a penis and balls. What makes a woman a woman is having a vagina. You guys even said that being a man is a "learned" thing and that a lot of men of today are not taught how to be that way. No one has to teach a man how to have a penis. They just do. Any trait that has to be taught to a man isn't a real manly trait. It's society's idea of how a man should behave otherwise they are rejected from society. It's nothing more than that. When you behave how society tells a woman to behave, your penis doesn't suddenly shrink and become a vagina and when you act manly, it doesn't suddenly grow several inches. It's still the same and you're still a man, whatever you do.

 

Also, I am a feminist. Immediately, when people hear that word they become prejudiced against me and assume certain things about me that are untrue, which is rather offensive. I am a feminist because I believe women deserve respect in society and that they still don't get enough of it. I am glad women can work now, vote, have sex, and do all the other things they can do, but the fact is, they still don't have a lot of respect.

 

When men get angry at feminists, I understand why they do. It's because they feel that feminists don't respect men. That they just want to undermine them and dominate them, boss them around and treat them like crap. Just because I'm a feminist doesn't mean I want to treat men that way or feel they deserve to be treated that way. Like I said, I want women to be treated with respect and that has nothing to do with taking the respect away from how men are treated. I want both genders to be treated with respect because I know how horrible it feels to have someone treat you with such disrespect just because of your gender.

 

All the problems that were discussed in this thread about women abandoning men and feeling like they don't need them and women being "ball-busters" is related to the whole respect issue. Women who treat a man like that don't respect him. The mistake some feminists make is that thinking the idea of treating men in the crappy ways that many men have treated women in the past is the right way to handle the situation. It isn't. It's not about getting petty revenge and getting a power trip over it, it's about teaching both genders to mutually respect one another. I don't blame everyone for being unhappy about it.

 

Also, lots of women can be happy and respectful of husbands who have feminine traits. That's not what destroys relationships. It's the lack of respect on either person's part. My relationship, for instance, is an example of this . . . . . (He's my boyfriend and I've been dating him the last five years.)

 

My boyfriend has cried several times in front of me. He's very emotional at times and I've even seen him cry in front of other people. He has hair almost as long as mine, which he is very vain about. He buys expensive girl shampoo to wash it with and takes it as a compliment when people tell him his hair is "pretty." He strives to have pretty, long hair and makes fun of the men with long hair that don't take care of it. He has never gone to a gym in his life. He weighs less than me. He's the same height as me. He tells me he loves me every day and can even talk about his feelings with me sometimes.

 

He also has a lot of masculine traits. He swears a lot and has a bad temper for instance. He gets afraid of being too tied down sometimes and doesn't like children. He likes action movies and wears the pants in our relationship. He can be bossy and he can play video games all day.

 

The list of both his masculine traits and feminine traits goes on and on really.

 

When he cried in front of other people, they laughed at him a whole bunch. When I've told people about his pretty hair, they get funny expressions on their faces sometimes. And you know what? Those things piss me off a WHOLE lot. Because I respect my boyfriend and everything about him. I love him more than anyone I've ever loved in my life and it makes me really mad when other people disrespect him.

 

He's the same with me. I hate when men insult my intelligence because I'm a woman. I hate when I am having a debate with them and they go,"You're just being an emotional girl and nothing you say is actually logical." It drives me insane when they can't listen to me or respect me at all.

 

My boyfriend, on the other hand, is always telling me how smart I am and how he learns so much from me and about how much he respects me. Our relationship isn't perfect and I can't guarantee it will last forever, but if it dies, it won't be because he was too feminine for me. I can promise you that.

 

I don't think women are just impossible to please. (Well, some are, but that's because there's always some human beings out there that are just impossible to please. It's not a female thing.) I think that people are just clawing each other for respect in a relationship (of both genders now because of the feminist movement) and think that being bossy and the dominant one in the relationship is how you get it. They are mistaken.

 

Like I said, I like all the rights that the woman's movement have given women. None of that was a mistake. The mistake came from not helping society to learn to respect women and also teaching women to disrespect men. You can have all those rights and not disrespect a man.

 

What I'm trying to say is that whether a man acts like a woman or not in a relationship has NOTHING to do with how successful it is or not. And I'd really hate the idea, personally, of being forced to choose from only men with traditional masculine characteristics and no feminine ones. I'd be unhappy.

[Woggle]

If all feminists were like Enchanted Girl I would completely support the movement and most men I know probably. The problem is that many are not and too often the word becomes just another excuse for misandrists to hide behind. Many of these women are just seething cauldrons of hate who want to punish all men because of their bad experience.

 

They can't see a world outside their horrible experiences growing up and in relationships so they lash out at an entire gender. They assume any happy marriage or relationship that lasts must be that way because the woman is oppressed and dependant. Then they turn around and demand that men respect them but it does not work that way. You can't spit in a person's face and then demand respect from them. Show respect and you will receive it in return but I have none for somebody who thinks I am pond scum because of the body parts I was born with and I can tell when a woman hates even when she doesn't say it.

[carhill]

I'm sensing slippage here.

 

Indifference can be healthy in certain situations......

 

What I'm trying to say is that whether a man acts like a woman or not in a relationship has NOTHING to do with how successful it is or not. And I'd really hate the idea, personally, of being forced to choose from only men with traditional masculine characteristics and no feminine ones. I'd be unhappy.

 

Boiled down nicely. Thanks. That's a perspective which should work from both sides of the gender street.

[Woggle]

Indifference, domination and game playing works wonders with some women but a man has to ask himself if that is the kind of relationship he wants anyway. A happy and healthy relationship is a great thing but being single is better than a life with a drama queen any day of the week.