Author threebyfate Posted July 11, 2010 Author Posted July 11, 2010 I think a lot of these guys don't have success for the following reason: They have an all-or-nothing personality. They see themselves and not worthy of love and affection because of past issues and experience and thus if and when they do change to what society determines is a better archetype of a male they actually go overboard and become just as unattractive to the opposite sex.Swinging too hard in the opposite direction will make you unattractive, hence my reference to PUAs. But why must it be all or nothing? How about some swinging towards a more balanced middle ground? As an example: Victim attitude. Cutting the victim attitude will move someone to the middle ground.
Gero Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 [/b] The bolded part. That's how it came across and you went on to say you had 'poor male role models..' etc. If I heard that from a man I was dating it would massively turn me off True. I think he really meant that his brother wasn't the typical role model to him because he was a homosexual. It just comes off like he thinks it was his dad's fault because of the way he said it.
Woggle Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 Homosexuality has nothing to do with ood male role models. My uncle is gay and my paternal grandfather was as tough as nails. I don't how my father ended up marrying a misandrist and being so wimpy because he certainly did not learn it from his father.
Gero Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 Swinging too hard in the opposite direction will make you unattractive, hence my reference to PUAs. But why must it be all or nothing? How about some swinging towards a more balanced middle ground? As an example: Victim attitude. Cutting the victim attitude will move someone to the middle ground. It's not that easy for guys like that. They think that because no one will date them that they have no good qualities. Because of this they try to change into a completely different person. It's hard to know the feeling unless you have been there. They have low self-esteems because of lack of success in the past and thus they will not accept compliments for the most part and will believe that something is wrong with them. They will then try to completely emulate someone who has had success and fail because they are not being themselves. You sound like a very confident person and thus I doubt you know what it is like to go through these issues. Yes, people need to step up and change for themselves, but no it's not always as easy as it sounds.
Green Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 I get what your saying. But you gotta admit, the evolution of gender roles brought on by feminism has had a big impact on how men socially condition by society. Being a mans man like you want isn't what we see anymore in our culture. Just look at any sitcom on tv and all you see are men who try to decieve and hide things from their wives. King of Queens, Everybody Loves Raymond, George Lopez ... All involve p*ussy whipped husbands. Men don't have good male role models anymore. I think thats why family guy is so successful. The men are the ones making women look like fools on that show. They take it too far though. Most sitcomes find it Politicaly correct and humerouse to show the bafoon man in comercials and programs. Then again women shop more, so advertisers probably like that. They didn't teach men how to have happy relationships. They simply advised them how to be productive people in a time where women kept their mouth shut about any unhappiness they experienced. What was the result? The feminist movement. No, the feminist movement resulted because TECHNOLOGY which finaly created jobs that women can do. You don't know anything about these men. I know many old school type of families who are still like this and these men have productive lives and happy marriages that last. Why do you think that immigrants are coming over to this country and kicking our butts? Do you ever notice that many doctors these days are indian and asian? Look at how many businesses are owned by immigrants as well. It is because they have a family and community oriented culture that nurtures people for tommorow while the rest of us have an everybody for themselves mentality. Your examples are perfect. These cultures will over take us. We live in a culture where its each person for themselves. I agree that people evolve but it seems that women are the only ones allowed to do so. Men have to stay when men always were or god help us. It cracks me up when I hear some ballbusting woman who doesn't have a feminine bone in her body whining about how she wants an alpha-male. Men who have the luxery if being choosy usually do not choose women like that but ask them to make any changes and you get called sexist and patriarchal. I have the option of being choosey and I would NEVER go out with one of these ball busting women. The reality is MEN still have it a lot better then women. It's not Politicaly Correct but its reality. The picture painted by advertisers and TV is all aimed at commercialy pleasing women who spend vast ammounts of money on needless crap. Women who don't even know how to cook any more so they feed their families with CORPORATE crap instead of food. This thread is a lame excuse for a women to tell men how unattractive we are. I see it for what it is.
Author threebyfate Posted July 11, 2010 Author Posted July 11, 2010 It's not that easy for guys like that. They think that because no one will date them that they have no good qualities. Because of this they try to change into a completely different person. It's hard to know the feeling unless you have been there. They have low self-esteems because of lack of success in the past and thus they will not accept compliments for the most part and will believe that something is wrong with them. They will then try to completely emulate someone who has had success and fail because they are not being themselves. You sound like a very confident person and thus I doubt you know what it is like to go through these issues. Yes, people need to step up and change for themselves, but no it's not always as easy as it sounds.It's got to start somewhere and that somewhere is within everyone to do. Rather than go whole hog, why not change a little at a time? Going all the way at the outset, taking too much on, is almost guaranteed to fail since no one can change everything so quickly. But if you take one thing at a time and work at it until it becomes second nature, that's how confidence and success are built.
kdark Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 [/b] The bolded part. That's how it came across and you went on to say you had 'poor male role models..' etc. If I heard that from a man I was dating it would massively turn me off Well, it's a good thing we aren't dating then... To elaborate, my dad is a huge pussy. My step mom walks all over him constantly. When he was married to my mom, they never did anything together. Kissed, hugged, touched, talked. My older brother, growing up, would want me to play barbie dolls with him, and would want me to play house with him. Between the two of them, I had to learn how to interact with women on my own. That's what I meant by poor male role models.
carhill Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 Hey, TBF, nice read. How's bump? Looking at the list, I can understand your perspective. There was a time when I was doing a lot of the housework when I started sitting down to pee, to save on bathroom cleanup time. Don't know if that would be a feminine behavior or not. I always saw it as pragmatic, a classic male trait Anyway, having lived a bit, and seeing the myriad of relationships out there, including my own, I'd say accepting my unique path has been forefront in reaching a peaceful place. It's not for everyone, male nor female, but that's OK. Take care
Blade Runner Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 What the hell is this? Apparently bitching, whining, being passive, etc etc is all female now? Give me a break. First of all, we all have different versions of "nice guys" so this whole thing just goes 'round and around. To me, a nice guy is just that -- a nice guy. Somewhere along the way, insecure guys/really shy guys, etc started calling themselves nice guys too. And maybe they are; but this is a seperate issue. Girls can be insecure too. This is not a "nice guy" thing. It's just a thing that you stick on the face of anybody. People in general. And frankly, I don't think most people could tell the difference between someone who's just a little slow at getting things started/shy and somebody who's apparently got all these "female" traits. It's like when shy people get mistaken for elitists. That happens all the time. What the hell.
Woggle Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 I don't think that family guy is such a good example. Peter Griffin is a complete moron even though the women are not that smart either. Everybody is an idiot on that show.
CLC2008 Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 What the hell is this? Apparently bitching, whining, being passive, etc etc is all female now? Give me a break. First of all, we all have different versions of "nice guys" so this whole thing just goes 'round and around. To me, a nice guy is just that -- a nice guy. Somewhere along the way, insecure guys/really shy guys, etc started calling themselves nice guys too. And maybe they are; but this is a seperate issue. Girls can be insecure too. This is not a "nice guy" thing. It's just a thing that you stick on the face of anybody. People in general. And frankly, I don't think most people could tell the difference between someone who's just a little slow at getting things started/shy and somebody who's apparently got all these "female" traits. It's like when shy people get mistaken for elitists. That happens all the time. What the hell. Word!!!!!!
Gero Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 It's got to start somewhere and that somewhere is within everyone to do. Rather than go whole hog, why not change a little at a time? Going all the way at the outset, taking too much on, is almost guaranteed to fail since no one can change everything so quickly. But if you take one thing at a time and work at it until it becomes second nature, that's how confidence and success are built. Exactly. Some people aren't patient enough. I know I haven't been in the past. I'm trying to change now finally.
Author threebyfate Posted July 11, 2010 Author Posted July 11, 2010 Hey, TBF, nice read. How's bump? Looking at the list, I can understand your perspective. There was a time when I was doing a lot of the housework when I started sitting down to pee, to save on bathroom cleanup time. Don't know if that would be a feminine behavior or not. I always saw it as pragmatic, a classic male trait Anyway, having lived a bit, and seeing the myriad of relationships out there, including my own, I'd say accepting my unique path has been forefront in reaching a peaceful place. It's not for everyone, male nor female, but that's OK. Take care Bump's been kidnapped by his grandparents and will be returned safely tomorrow. H is ferociously catching up on his sleep after his run with our dog. According to him, he's getting old and worn out at 38 and must have a nap so we can go out later tonight!
sally4sara Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 No, the feminist movement resulted because TECHNOLOGY which finaly created jobs that women can do. If everyone had been happy in their relationships and their station in life, they would not have bought into it. TECHNOLOGY didn't make those jobs impossible to men. The taking of jobs only highlighted the inequality that was already present.
Green Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 If everyone had been happy in their relationships and their station in life, they would not have bought into it. TECHNOLOGY didn't make those jobs impossible to men. The taking of jobs only highlighted the inequality that was already present. Why don't you go explain that to the Amish
gamma1 Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 They have low self-esteems because of lack of success in the past and thus they will not accept compliments for the most part and will believe that something is wrong with them. They will then try to completely emulate someone who has had success and fail because they are not being themselves. This is exactly how it is. I try and be myself and it fails miserably and I try to emulate someone and it fails miserably in a different way.
silverfish Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 Well, it's a good thing we aren't dating then... To elaborate, my dad is a huge pussy. My step mom walks all over him constantly. When he was married to my mom, they never did anything together. Kissed, hugged, touched, talked. My older brother, growing up, would want me to play barbie dolls with him, and would want me to play house with him. Between the two of them, I had to learn how to interact with women on my own. That's what I meant by poor male role models. My point in relation to this thread though, is - your experiences aren't that different from say, someone who grew up with 3 brothers and had to play Star Wars everyday, who had a mother who didn't work, and an authoritarian father figure. That wouldn't necessarily translate to 'having poor female role models' because there are many other role models you could choose growing up that would give you balance - teachers, cousins, grandparents, etc etc As an adult, disregarding any major issues that would hopefully be dealt with in counselling, the statement you made would be a turnoff and would come under 'whining' in the OP's list. Obviously I can't speak for anyone but myself but I believe that may be the case for other women than me
sally4sara Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 You don't know anything about these men. I know many old school type of families who are still like this and these men have productive lives and happy marriages that last. Why do you think that immigrants are coming over to this country and kicking our butts? Do you ever notice that many doctors these days are indian and asian? Look at how many businesses are owned by immigrants as well. It is because they have a family and community oriented culture that nurtures people for tommorow while the rest of us have an everybody for themselves mentality. Woggle, pretend I came from a multi generational family rather than assuming I was hatched in a nest by birds. Most of us had grandparents, great uncles and aunts, etc. Of course I know about old school type families! And no they did not all have happy marriages.
sally4sara Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 Why don't you go explain that to the Amish What percentage of the world's population is Amish? Would you say its a growing lifestyle? And further more - WHAT?
Woggle Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 Woggle, pretend I came from a multi generational family rather than assuming I was hatched in a nest by birds. Most of us had grandparents, great uncles and aunts, etc. Of course I know about old school type families! And no they did not all have happy marriages. There is a whole world outside of your family. Most tight knit families I know are much happier than the modern kind.
sally4sara Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 There is a whole world outside of your family. Most tight knit families I know are much happier than the modern kind. And in what way was your life's experience more accurate than someone, ANYONE else?
Green Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 There is a whole world outside of your family. Most tight knit families I know are much happier than the modern kind. agreed. I'm willing to bet she has never really traveled.
Woggle Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 And in what way was your life's experience more accurate than someone, ANYONE else? My family does not represent every family either but from what I observe what happened to my father is what often happens to men who marry feminists and try to have an equal relationship.
kdark Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 My point in relation to this thread though, is - your experiences aren't that different from say, someone who grew up with 3 brothers and had to play Star Wars everyday, who had a mother who didn't work, and an authoritarian father figure. That wouldn't necessarily translate to 'having poor female role models' because there are many other role models you could choose growing up that would give you balance - teachers, cousins, grandparents, etc etc As an adult, disregarding any major issues that would hopefully be dealt with in counselling, the statement you made would be a turnoff and would come under 'whining' in the OP's list. Obviously I can't speak for anyone but myself but I believe that may be the case for other women than me. But you can't learn how to act in an intimate relationship from teachers or cousins. And I'm not trying to be an attractive male when I post on LS. This isn't a dating website. Call it whining if you wish, but these aren't things I say to potential dates.
silverfish Posted July 11, 2010 Posted July 11, 2010 But you can't learn how to act in an intimate relationship from teachers or cousins. And I'm not trying to be an attractive male when I post on LS. This isn't a dating website. Call it whining if you wish, but these aren't things I say to potential dates. You can't really learn this from anyone, you learn behaviours growing up that are useful or not but you don't have to adopt them all, otherwise we'd all be having the same relationship as our parents, grandparents and so on In an intimate relationship you are yourself completely, no need to act anyway at all, if you put on an act that'll show up pretty quickly. Of course your past shapes you to an extent, but at some point you make your own way. I'm sure you don't say things like that to potential dates, but it's not just about words, it's attitude as well. If believe what you are saying, it doesn't sound as though anything is about to change within you, it sounds like you're stuck in the past (not saying you are btw)
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