Is there any hope? or is it me who is hopeless?

[Cedarman]

Just a quick question - does anyone or has anyone had mutual friends or even spouse's friends speak to your spouse about the problem? In my wife's case it seems that she's just getting such a one-sided perspective, hers and her single (or wish they were single) friends. There's my perspective - but my wife automatically thinks that my perspective is about disapproval and she rejects it outright.

 

She does have some fairly stable and grounded friends at her home (where she's travelling) - also she respects my sister. I thought I might see if they would speak with my wife.

 

Good idea or bad?

[sumdude]

Just a quick question - does anyone or has anyone had mutual friends or even spouse's friends speak to your spouse about the problem? In my wife's case it seems that she's just getting such a one-sided perspective, hers and her single (or wish they were single) friends. There's my perspective - but my wife automatically thinks that my perspective is about disapproval and she rejects it outright.

 

She does have some fairly stable and grounded friends at her home (where she's travelling) - also she respects my sister. I thought I might see if they would speak with my wife.

 

Good idea or bad?

 

Bad idea. Bringing her family or friends into it will only push her further away and reinforce the idea in her head that you're controlling and using her people to get to her. So she will bond even more with her new crowd and possible affair partner in an 'us vs. them' way.

 

 

At this point it's pretty clear that she's emotionally out of the marriage.

One of the few things that can wake up a cheating spouse is a surprise exposure of the affair to everyone.

I know you don't want to believe there's a physical affair going on.. where there's smoke there's fire. But you've now shown your hand that you've been checking up on her. So she will just become more and more wily about covering up. People in affairs will say just about anything to anyone to avoid getting caught.

 

Believe it or not a year and a half after our divorce was final my ex-wife was still bold faced lying to me about who she married. Which was of course the man she cheated on me with.

Edited July 13, 2010 by sumdude

[Binster]

Sorry about what your going through mate. But given the way things are, I think people are right when they say time for a keylogger.

Do it while she's out of town.

It can't make things worse.

Good luck.

 

Oh and get legal advice you dont have to do anything yet but at least you'll know what your rights are.

[Cedarman]

So I took them to the airport yesterday. Things were civil - my wife even trying to give me a hug when they left.

 

I've come to the decision that I am going on the trip next week to join them and I'm going to have fun with the kids. I've also decided that I'm going to live my life and if my wife wants to come along for the ride she's welcome, but I'm not going to be sidetracked by her anymore. Ultimately, if she can't be totally honest (100%) with me then I don't want her around. Period. Of course, words are easier than actions and I'm under no illusions that it's going to be easy, or that she will even want to be part of my "boring" life (eg - clubbing has zero interest for me anymore). But I'm going to try the 180 (which I note says don't spy/snoop on spouse - tough when the whole house is empty!) and focus on myself and MY happiness.

 

That's the plan anyway. I'll take it day by day and reserve the right to be angry and bitter every now and then. The reality is that I keep wishing I could turn the clock back about 6 or 7 years and do things differently. I've kind of realized that I didn't do my part to keep the flames alive (no excuse for my wife's lying, but I understand why she wasn't happy. Spent too much time being angry/disappointed at her behaviour vs focusing on me. I guess I have a lot of work to do in order to move forward.

[Cedarman]

Well, I'm doing the 180 thing and NC and it seems my wife must be doing the same. The weird and disappointing thing is that my kids have not contacted me. Usually, I will call them every day when I'm on a business trip, or they will call me. At the very least, my eldest daughter will send me a "luv u" text message. Today - nothing (they're halfway around the world and it's 12 hours ahead) and my eldest daughter didn't take her cellphone as it won't work overseas.

 

I have no way of contacting them without calling my wife's cellphone, and they have no way of contacting me other than borrowing my wife's phone (to call or send a text).

 

I feel disappointed. It's only been two days, am I over-reacting? Or is this typical of the stage I'm in?

[Binster]

I think the idea of working on your own life and building on your intrest's is a good move but when you consider your wife's stance on all this I still think legal advice is a good move particularly while you have some time on your hands. After all where's the harm in finding out what your rights and responsibilitys would be in the event of a split.

[Binster]

Also have to say given your last posting, it sounds as though your wife would not be above using the kids to get her own way or even trying to turn them against you.

 

Sorry to be saying these kind of things as I know it's not something anyone would like to contemplate.

 

Good luck mate.

[Cedarman]

Also have to say given your last posting, it sounds as though your wife would not be above using the kids to get her own way or even trying to turn them against you.

 

Sorry to be saying these kind of things as I know it's not something anyone would like to contemplate.

 

Good luck mate.

 

Yeah, the thought had crossed my mind - but I can't believe it or I'm in denial.

 

At any rate, does it violate the principle of NC if I text my daughters by texting to my wife's cellphone? I'm guessing that that is the worst thing I could do, but at the same time I want my daughters to know I'm thinking about them (my wife too, but I guess I'm not supposed to admit that).

 

They're halfway around the world and it's driving me crazy not being able to contact them.

 

Had a pretty good day though - went golfing after work which helped take my mind off things - horrible front nine, but decent back. Couldn't concentrate during the front because I had heard my wife's current favourite song on the radio on the drive up - a club mix dance by Ian Longo - One Life Stand. But I didn't know the title and it sounded like he was singing about "One Night Stands". Really screwed up my mind. Pushed the lyrics out of my head for the back nine, then came home and looked up the song and it's "One LIFE Stand". LOL. I am really in a pathetic state.

[Binster]

I know you must be having a bad time of things but golf and the gym are real lifesavers especially the gym.

 

I would say your wife sounds very self centred and selfish and it sounds as though your confidence and judgement have taken areal hit. For example while you dont know whats going on, you know somethings wrong but you dont want to check because she gets mad.

Whatever she is or isn't doing she's playing a classic blame shifting game making out that everythings your fault and your left doubting yourself.

Remember this is not your fault these are her decisions.

 

I have reread some of the previous postings as I wondered if it was just me geting a wrong idea of things (doubting myself) I dont think so in particular a good post from Butterflair.

 

If it was me and I know this is easy to say but I would take the computor to a shop, get someone who knows to fit the best keylogger around if she's up to anything she'll probably contact soon after geting home also ask about retrieval programs in case you can bring back deleted emails.

 

And id defiinatly start saving some cash somewhere safe just in case. If things work out o.k use it for a family trip if not it could be very usefull.

 

Good luck mate

[Cedarman]

Thanks Binster.

 

Well, I've been avoiding speaking with my wife since they left - speaking only with the kids when they call. Sort of a short term NC thing. Kind of blew it yesterday though - I called the kids because there was some news for them and briefly spoke with my wife when she picked up. She asked how I was doing and I told her, honestly, that I'm having mixed feelings about going on the vacation. I was trying to sound normal, but there was a lot of anger in my voice and I was quite abrupt and sort of rude. Not cool.

 

So I guess it's back to square one on the NC thing at least for the next 5 days until I see them.

 

I have done a little snooping and found out that my wife has been getting IC since Feb 2010 through her EAP. The weird thing is - at that time, we were getting along really fine - in fact it was shortly after my birthday and before our Spring vacation. She never mentioned a word about counselling - I would have supported it because I think she's having problems and NEEDS real counselling. Because she kept it secret, I'm guessing the IC is being used to validate her actions and behaviour towards me. She has a way of describing our problems so that it seems like it is MY problem, not hers. So the counsellor probably has no clue as to the real problem or my wife's real behaviour. Also found out she's been getting Botox injections regularly - never knew this. This goes along with her obsession with aging and looks.

 

I've been looking up Mid-life crisis and it seems my wife is in a full blown one. Has every symptom and has for a number of years - and they're getting worse. I guess husbands have to either suck it up and hope it passes or simply accept the fact that your "old" wife is gone forever and with it, your relationship. I think that's about where I am.

[HopelessinDTW]

Cederman:

I read through your posts, and I have to say our situations are very similar. My stbx is also very manipulative, and is also seeing a IC. The thing is she has been lying so much...I believe she's a pathological lier...that she's probably feeding bulls**t to her IC. She's made me out to be a monster, and so everyone that once was our mutual friends are all against me. She's also manipulating the kids, and blaming me for their misbehaviors. You just can't deal with someone like that...you need to just let go and try to move on with your life...just you and the kids from now on....

[solitary_man]

have you contemplated hiring a Private Investigator? They are professional snoopers and can actually offer closure where it's needed, peace of mind where it's warranted. It would have saved me four years of rocky, unhappy marriage. A lot of the behaviors you explain are strikingly similar to what my ex went through during the last few years of our marriage.

 

your wife should be your best friend. if you communicate to her that something is bothering you, she should respect you enough to listen and talk about it. If the first thing she does is redirect blame, she'd not taking responsibility for her marriage.

[Cedarman]

Hopeless and Solitary - thanks for the replies. Yes, I am guessing that my wife is using the IC as a way to ease her conscience and get some validation. When we did MC, she would present herself as simply an independent woman, with the issue being my need to "control" her. I can picture her telling the Counsellor how I got upset because she went out for dinner with her girlfriends (leaving out the part about going out clubbing following the dinner until 3:00 am while her clueless husband had the two daughters and two of their friends at the cottage). This is the lie of ommission that has become a habit for my wife. I have no problem with her going out with her friends IF she told me where and when. Full disclosure, including what they do AFTER dinner. But she lied for some reason, and THAT is what bugs me. She knew there was something wrong about what she was doing so she left it out. By lying she confirms that the activity was not good.

 

I started some IC myself and was surprised when my counsellor did NOT criticize me for snooping into her email. In fact, she said that my wife has given me plenty of reasons for not trusting her. But that is what I want to get past. I want to trust my wife.

 

Instead of snooping I'm going to ask my wife if she'd have a problem with giving me access to her cellphone and cellphone bills. This would be a condition of trying to work things out. IF she has a problem with this, then my question is answered without any further snooping.

[Cedarman]

Well, I'm off to meet my family for the remainder of the vacation - leave tomorrow morning.

 

I sent my wife a long email today that basically said that I think she should leave and live on her own. I don't want any more crap, and unless she's willing to change and be totally honest, I have no interest in continuing this marriage. Would be better for all involved to split. And if we stay together, how would I know she's being honest? There's no way of knowing, the only thing you can do is confirm dishonesty.

 

Chances are very very low that this will work out. In the back of my mind I DO want it to work things out, but not at my expense. Not any more.

 

Having said that, it's kind of strange to be leaving tomorrow - but one reason I sent it is because when I see her, I might backtrack. I still have very strong feelings for my wife - but I'm getting a handle on controlling these feelings. Wanted to send this letter before I changed my mind.

[solitary_man]

Well, I'm off to meet my family for the remainder of the vacation - leave tomorrow morning.

 

I sent my wife a long email today that basically said that I think she should leave and live on her own. I don't want any more crap, and unless she's willing to change and be totally honest, I have no interest in continuing this marriage. Would be better for all involved to split. And if we stay together, how would I know she's being honest? There's no way of knowing, the only thing you can do is confirm dishonesty.

 

Chances are very very low that this will work out. In the back of my mind I DO want it to work things out, but not at my expense. Not any more.

 

Having said that, it's kind of strange to be leaving tomorrow - but one reason I sent it is because when I see her, I might backtrack. I still have very strong feelings for my wife - but I'm getting a handle on controlling these feelings. Wanted to send this letter before I changed my mind.

 

Hats off to you, Cedar. Stay strong and stick to your guns, as my ma would say. I have to say I had a lot of admiration for the way you've approached this and how you are handling it. I wish I could have been more like you when I was in a very similar situation.

 

Don't beat yourself up for being in love with her. That one is going to take time, but the sooner you're able to put your chin out and your foot down, the sooner you'll find your heart on the mend. Not that you'll really be caring about that any time soon.

[Binster]

Good luck, do what you have to do for you and the kids.

[Cedarman]

Haven't posted for awhile so here is an update:

 

I made the trip and actually started re-connecting with my wife - it was good to see her in her "home" environment, all natural without the defensive walls that she puts up. But it wasn't all smooth sailing. I still questioned her about honesty and she opened up and admitted to deceiving me about her friends and her activities. Turns out, almost ALL her friends are unhappily married, divorced, or even one having an affair. These are her peer group and she goes out clubbing with them after telling me that they're all married with kids. My wife splits hairs and tells me that she never said "happily" married - but she knows she was lying. It also turns out that her closest friend divorced in November of last year and is now living with her boyfriend - this floored me as I had no idea this friend was having any marital problems, let alone divorced. So after stewing with it for a day, I got pissed off, and told my wife how upset I was about the dishonesty. This was on the last day of our holidays and basically erased any "connection" we had forged.

 

Back home, we quickly tried to forget the argument and continued "re-connecting". But again, there was something which I knew and which my wife wasn't telling me. I had deliberately snooped after they left and had discovered a secret email account and managed to log-on and check. There was ONE chat buddy - a guy - complete with picture (holding his baby of all things). This was a younger guy (12 years younger) who she had met golfing two years ago. All the chat history was erased - but I could see that the login records showed that she was logging on as late as the week she left - from her health club.

 

I made the mistake of waiting for her to tell me about this after giving her the opportunity to be upfront about any and all secrets.

 

Finally, I just couldn't stand it - so yesterday morning I looked her in the eyes and told her that I know about her secret email account and chat buddy. At first, she claimed that this was simply an email account which she used for her golf buddies - but finally admitted that she had been chatting with this guy for about a year - about golf, family, marriage. It turns out that this guy divorced HIS wife in January (leaving two young kids, one of which he is holding in his chat picture) and was now living with a younger woman. My wife said this as if it proves he's no longer available and a threat - without realizing how bad it actually sounded. She finally admitted that she had an infatuation with this guy and was physically attracted to him ("eyecandy" as she said) - but nothing had ever happened beyond chatting - I actually believe this, but the damage is done. Note - one of her solo trips was a big group golfing trip of which this guy was a part - that was last winter and my wife had begged me to let her go because she needed the break. When I pointed out that this would have been a perfect opportunity to fool around, my wife said that this guy shared a room with his Dad, so it couldn't have happened. Not that she wasn't interested - but that the situation would have been awkward (she had her own room though). One of the guys on the trip is a friend of mine, so I have to believe that if anything had happened, I would have heard about it. but again, the deception is the problem. When I asked my wife why she kept logging on to the account - she claimed that she was just checking because other golf friends sometimes emailed her. BS.

 

It gets better - later in the day, my wife confronted me all angry saying that she views my spying and hacking into her email as "robbing her house". VERY indignant. I told her I did what I did because of my own sanity. Further she said that I must have been playing games with her during the holidays because I knew all this but didn't say anything. She's right - I should have brought it up right away, but I was really struggling with the spying aspect - and wanted her to bring it up herself (which she didn't).

 

I told her that if she can't committ to me or our marriage then to get out. She said I have no right to kick her out of the house (which is true - it's joint name) - and I said that she has no moral right to be here.

 

Where is stands today. A real rollercoaster. After a long, painful discussion, we've agreed to try to continue to try to "re-connnect" and move forward in a constructive way. We're going to evaluate if it's working in a few weeks. This might work, now that the lies are out in the open (at least I hope). Oddly, I still love my wife, and am still strongly attracted to her - despite our problems. I also recognize that I didn't pay attention to our marriage (concentrating on the kids exclusively) - so I was deaf to her unhappiness (which I see in hindsight).

In no uncertain terms I have told her that there is to be no more contact with her chat buddy (even golf) and that she has to be honest with me about everything (yeah, meaningless, but she DID promise).

 

So have no idea how this is going to turn out, but am prepared for anything even the worst. I'd love to re-connect, but if it doesn't work out I'm not going to stress over it and am prepared for life without her. A real roller coaster...

[sumdude]

Sounds like there's been a little progress. Remember the old saying, believe nothing of what you hear and half of what you see. People having affairs are notorious for concocting the most amazing lies. Stand your ground. She must drop all contact with other men and commit to rebuilding your marriage or it's the door. Try to keep your emotions in check and maintain some distance though. Doing all this with anger will not help. If she makes real and obvious moves to work on the marriage you will have to find a way to forgive the past. Remember that you'll be OK whatever happens.

Edited August 12, 2010 by sumdude

[seibert253]

Cedar, I believe this one may be saveable. I think you're committed to this, but is she?

Is the OM out of the picture? Has she gone NC with him? If not, its a MUST. Your M will not heal with a third party intruding. You need to insist upon this.

Is she remorseful, being totally truthful, honest, and transparent? To me it doesn't sound like it. Your wife was involved in an EA. It wasn't just "chat". She admitted being attracted to this guy, and would have ended up scrwing him if old dad wasn't around.

Have you two started any counseling? You need to. You can't just try to "reconnect" and hope this works out. Again, BOTH of you need to be 100% committed to fixing this.

[Cedarman]

Thanks Sumdude and seibert253.

 

I'm hoping that my wife is committed, but I honestly don't know if I'm able to read her anymore. The problem with the two of us is that I'm still strongly attracted to her, but she has to re-build her attraction. So it's unbalanced, and it's really easy for my mind to play tricks on myself. I'm trying to stay cool, stay objective, but it's a lot harder for me than for her.

 

I'm trying to encourage MC again - but my wife wants to see if we can get along for a couple of weeks first. By "get along" she wants to just work on the re-connection and not bring up the past. I don't see how you can avoid bringing up the past - especially when an EA is concerned. But I'm willing to wait a couple of weeks and simply enjoy "re-connecting". It might be an illusion on her part - but I have to go into this assuming it's honest, until proven otherwise.

 

For the other guy - I agree completely and have told my wife that she can no longer contact him, even play golf in the same mixed events that he's in. She didn't like that - telling me that the other guy would be laughing if he heard how worried I was about their relationship (again trying to say how it was nothing to worry about) - but this is just a symptom of my wife's denial. She agreed, but who knows what her actions will be. She still believes that it was more innocent than it was. I realize there is no going forward until this denial is broken, but I can wait a couple weeks before working on this. Not sure if this is a mistake or not - but it's the hand I'm working with. The alternative was to break up a couple of days ago and live officially separately in the same house. That would simply NOT work for me as that's sort of what we've been doing for the past couple of years.

 

So for now, I'm just enjoying "wooing" my wife again - it's like going back to dating - with all the ups and downs and potential. We went to a movie last night and it was good just to relax and laugh together and then go out for a drink afterwards. Again, I am under no illusions that my marriage is saved - far from it. I still have a lot of doubts and trust issues which I'm going to have to deal with and my wife is going to have to prove via her actions that she's deserving of trust. And she has to re-build her connection to me - so I have a lot of "wooing" to do. If I can't re-build this connection there's no hope at all. It's weird how I'm the injured party, but I have to win her back - but it's something I want to do... go figure. As I said in my first post - maybe I really am hopeless! So this is definitely a temporary lull in the storm and I'm just going to go with the flow for now.

[What_Next]

Cederman boy how I can empathize with your situation. Read my thread for a very similiar story. I can put my finger on exactly how you are feeling right now.

 

My advice, go slow, try not to spin off in 10 directions of every little thing. The bottom line remember what initially attracted you to each other and re-kindle that. It will be a LONG road, but it is possible.

 

I also understand your feeling about seperating but being under the same roof. My wife tried that as well and I would have NONE of it. Either we're married or we aren't, there's no middle ground.

 

Keep us posted on your progress. If I can lend a hand feel free to PM me.

[sumdude]

Sounds like you have some kind of plan. Just remember one thing, a woman won't love a man she doesn't respect. Wooing is fine, just don't be a doormat. Be a bit of a bada$$. Remember, there are some 3 billion women on the planet.

[Cedarman]

Thanks Whats_Next and Sumdude.

 

Yeah, I'm trying to keep my emotions in control and not go overboard. I'm also doing some hard thinking about what attracts me to her. Is it the memories or is it the present/future? One thing that clouds this whole thing is the physical attraction. She's kept herself in great shape and the changes she's made (although I wasn't for them initially) have raised the bar - she look's great and I still have the hots for her. But it got me to thinking - during the vacation, seeing her Mom and how she's turned out - will I still have the "hots" for my wife when her physical appearance starts to catch up with her age (right now, she definitely could pass for somebody 15 years younger)? I know this sounds incredibly superficial, but I am really wondering how much of my "love" is really "lust".

 

I would have never thought like this even 5 years ago, but now I'm wondering. I always pictured growing old together, but with the history and challenges, and frankly - the bitterness over her behaviour - can this marriage last? Will I be the one walking out in 10 years when the physical attraction starts to wind down?

 

Anyway this type of second guessing is not doing me any good - so I'll stop for now. Better to work at the re-connection in the short-term and worry about the long-term future later...

[Binster]

Hi Cedarman it seems you've made some progress with things in that at least how you feel is in the open ( nice one with the email so you didn't get chance to weaken).

 

As for the other stuff she's told quite a few lies and I dont think you believe everything anymore than I do.

 

I would say insist on N/C with this other man, also try stop her being in contact with these so called freinds they sound as though they are a bad influence on your mariage (this includes late nights clubing).

I would also insist on mariage counciling for both of you.

 

I would take this time as well to get some legal advice on where you stand in case of a divorce you can be sure these friends will be giving your wife all their experience and advice.

 

I know you will not like this and probably wouldn't do it but I would get a keylogger on the computor, also I would take note of how open she is with her mobile as that can be a good give away (remember without "snooping" you wouln't have found out about the other man).

 

Personally I think your being played, but like they say

hope for the best--prepare for the worst.

[Cedarman]

Binster - yes, there is a possibility (maybe strong) that I'm being "played" and that my wife is simply trying to use me until "something better" comes along. But that's the risk I'm taking. If I was further along at detaching myself emotionally from the situation, I'd probably just walk - but this is something I believe is worth trying at least as a last resort - nothing further to lose.

 

The thing I'm dealing with now is the feeling of "loss of face". Eg - how many people know about my wife's attraction? If I go golfing with people from "the group" - are they all in on the secret? I know I can't be worrying about stuff like this, but it DOES bother me. It feels humiliating and terrible that my wife was so unhappy that she sought comfort and a sympathetic ear elsewhere. Makes me feel like I have failed somehow - when it was actually HER that failed. The "eye candy" part doesn't bother me as much - I had a pretty healthy dating lifestyle before marrying (whereas my wife never really had a serious boyfriend) and I'm still in pretty good shape (physically - although mentally can't picture going back into the "singles" scene). Maybe that is the key - maybe I SHOULD be thinking about dating and what else is out there? Maybe I should think like her?

 

Also - my wife hasn't really acknowledged what she did. To her, it was all still so innocent - nothing more than secret chats. This is where MC would come in - not to back me, but to bring the discussion of the damage of EA's into the open.

 

Anyway - it's a rollercoaster, and I'm mentally trying to prepare for the worst, but having trouble keeping my own feelings of attraction under hand. I know I should be playing it cool - doing the 180, etc, but just finding it tough - especially when I'm trying to "woo" my own wife.

 

Trying hard not to be like this:

 

http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=EtfBE&m=1p04uB2LBhVgxy&b=uEcmAv_VuEUDoChZ8udzYQ

 

 

Seriously though - I am "wooing" my wife with the full knowledge that I cannot believe everything anymore. No matter what happens, I know there are some tough times ahead - so just trying to make the best of a very bad situation.