shadowplay Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 I used to be open to the idea of dating a wide variety of guys. That was partly a result of my low self esteem - I would hop into a relationship with practically any guy who gave me attention -- and partly a result of my lack of experience and knowledge of what qualities were incompatible with my own. At this point I've boxed myself in. After being bruised and disillusioned by experience, it seems like I see potential incompatibilities in every single guy. It's not like I'm turning down dates. For whatever reason I almost never get asked out. (More on that later.) Anyway, I'm in the process of trying to learn from a bad breakup what I should look for in a man. Trouble is it's only taught me what I don't need, not what I do. It's hard for me to envision anybody that I'd be compatible with. -I know that I don't do well with typical "beta" males (stereotypical nice guys, people pleasers) because I lose respect for them, they aren't assertive, and because they are often weak and insecure at core which leads to relationship difficulties. I've dated enough guys like this to know it really, really doesn't work for me. -I don't do well with younger guys because they lack maturity and experience. -But I don't know if I'd do well with alpha males either (super confident, outgoing men). Guys like this tend to be at least somewhat arrogant and self-absorbed, which naturally turns me off. They also tend to be judgmental about the fact that I'm on the shy side. In fact, I mix so badly with guys like this that they often act noticeably hostile to me even if we only have to interact on a minimal basis. In other words, I've never dated a guy like this but I can't imagine it'd work out. We'd probably both drive each other crazy. And it's not like I want to be super picky. I'm just anticipating potential relationships problems based on my experience. I feel like the kind of guy who would be compatible with me doesn't exist or is so rare that I'm unlikely to meet him. He'd probably have to be genuinely confident and strong without being arrogant and self absorbed. He'd also have to be accepting of my faults: my social anxiety and my moments of depression. And he'd have to be assertive about his needs, and not bottle stuff up. Then add on the fact that I don't seem to be in hot demand, and it seems like I'll never find somebody. Whenever I'm with a guy he always seems bowled over by my looks, and people frequently call me attractive, but I never get asked out. So who knows. It's always been a bit of a mystery to me. For the record, I'm thin and I have a nice, proportionate body. My face, I can never decide on. Nobody would ever call it below average, though. Overall, I'm at least above average or maybe average on my absolute worst day. It may be that my shyness and lack of a social life are partly to blame for the lack of attention I get. So what do I do? I've sort of lost faith in ever finding a happy relationship. Is it necessary to change myself? The last few months since my breakup I've been working hard on doing that, but there's realistically only so much I can change.
bayouboi Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 If you know you aren't compatible with betas but have never been with an alpha, maybe you should give the alpha a try. /shrug
Feelin Frisky Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 You can start off by knocking off the "categorizing" of men. Neither women nor men are rolled off a creator's assembly line with pre-determined ranges of characteristic but instead come into the world as product of genetic compositing that ensures we're each one of a kind. To sit aound and imply false limitations upon people you have not given yourself the chance to know based upon your perceived gender constructs is to excuse yourself from trying and back it up with flimsy reasoning. Sorry. Rewards go to those you brave reality rather than excusing themselves from meeting it head on.
Gero Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 I have similar issues. I am picky when it comes to the type of woman I want, but when I finally find the rare one that fits everything I am looking for, they still don't accept that I am not always confident enough due to my social anxiety and depression. So... yeah. I wish you luck.
threebyfate Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 (edited) At this point I've boxed myself in. After being bruised and disillusioned by experience, it seems like I see potential incompatibilities in every single guy.This is a form of situational commitment phobia. Preemptive rejection to self-protect. Anyway, I'm in the process of trying to learn from a bad breakup what I should look for in a man. Trouble is it's only taught me what I don't need, not what I do. It's hard for me to envision anybody that I'd be compatible with. It takes time to learn what works with you. Rather than focus solely on what didn't work, also focus on what worked within your past relationships. -I know that I don't do well with typical "beta" males (stereotypical nice guys, people pleasers) because I lose respect for them, they aren't assertive, and because they are often weak and insecure at core which leads to relationship difficulties. I've dated enough guys like this to know it really, really doesn't work for me. Name(s) put on this are ex/ex and current ex. -I don't do well with younger guys because they lack maturity and experience. Name attached to this, current ex. -But I don't know if I'd do well with alpha males either (super confident, outgoing men). Guys like this tend to be at least somewhat arrogant and self-absorbed, which naturally turns me off. They also tend to be judgmental about the fact that I'm on the shy side. In fact, I mix so badly with guys like this that they often act noticeably hostile to me even if we only have to interact on a minimal basis. In other words, I've never dated a guy like this but I can't imagine it'd work out. We'd probably both drive each other crazy. Name attached to this is your current ex's brother. And it's not like I want to be super picky. I'm just anticipating potential relationships problems based on my experience.Once again, situational commitment phobia and preemptive rejection. Be careful it doesn't become a bad habit. I feel like the kind of guy who would be compatible with me doesn't exist or is so rare that I'm unlikely to meet him. He'd probably have to be genuinely confident and strong without being arrogant and self absorbed. He'd also have to be accepting of my faults: my social anxiety and my moments of depression. And he'd have to be assertive about his needs, and not bottle stuff up. Sweetheart, everyone is self-absorbed to some degree. Then add on the fact that I don't seem to be in hot demand, and it seems like I'll never find somebody. Whenever I'm with a guy he always seems bowled over by my looks, and people frequently call me attractive, but I never get asked out. So who knows. It's always been a bit of a mystery to me. For the record, I'm thin and I have a nice, proportionate body. My face, I can never decide on. Nobody would ever call it below average, though. Overall, I'm at least above average or maybe average on my absolute worst day. It may be that my shyness and lack of a social life are partly to blame for the lack of attention I get. From what I've seen of your pics, you're above average. So what do I do? I've sort of lost faith in ever finding a happy relationship.You need to give yourself time to get over this past relationship, get to the stage where you can balance your perception about your exes, your relationship dynamics and also your role in it too. Is it necessary to change myself? The last few months since my breakup I've been working hard on doing that, but there's realistically only so much I can change.It's only necessary to change self, if you're doing it for self. If you change self to attract others, then you won't be as dedicated to it. I really, really think you need to take more time and have more patience with yourself. As well, don't write entire groups off when you have limited experience in each group. We all go through multiple heartbreaks. What we learn from these heartbreaks is key to finding the right person for us. If nothing's learned even though there's always something to learn, it ends up to be scarring rather than instructional. Don't allow yourself to emotionally or intellectually stagnate. While this is so easy to do, it's detrimental to maturity. Edited July 7, 2010 by threebyfate
Gero Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 Don't allow yourself to emotionally or intellectually stagnate. While this is so easy to do, it's detrimental to maturity. Ha! In other words, don't turn into me.
vestigalvirgin Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 Is it necessary to change myself? The last few months since my breakup I've been working hard on doing that, but there's realistically only so much I can change. You may need to Change some of your attitudes and expectations. You have not really clarified what you are looking for. "Alpha" vs. "beta" spectrum which is popular to make use of in the dating/relationship context refers more to how people interact socially rather than core values. What core values are you looking for in someone else? Obviously physical attraction, there has to be the spark, but beyond that? A few come to mind that you might want to think about, these are not really found along the "alpha-beta" spectrum: Personal integrity and honesty Reliability, responsibility & self-reliance Capacity to express love and compassion for others Capacity to effectively communicate within a relationship; conflict resolution skills; problem solving ability within a relationship Potential for personal growth as the relationship develops and ability to encourage the partner (you) to achieve the same Similar "intangible" qualities. Many associate these types of things with "beta" but I don't really think of these traits along alpha/beta lines, more along emotional maturity spectrum. IOW if you are looking for someone to be in a successful relationship with, then you have to look for someone possessing the types of qualities that make for being able to be in a successful relationship along with you. You asked about "changing" yourself. In order to find someone with the traits you are seeking, you may have to develop aspects of yourself consistent with what you are seeking. IOW by developing the same sorts of traits as described above. Descriptions of people such as "extrovert"/"introvert" are sort of like "alpha"/"beta" in that they tend to emphasize more the social interactive aspect of a person rather than core. So you might be compatible with an extrovert or an introvert, but you might not be compatible with either an extrovert or an introvert if he is not compassionate. Most of the important time in the relationship will be spent one on one or at least working on relationship issues, most of the energy will or should be focused on the relationship and each other, even if one or both of you are extroverts. Similarly even if one or both of you are introverts you should be focusing most of the energy on the relationship. It's unclear whether you have really actually put a great deal of serious thought into what you are actually looking for in another person. If you don't know what you really want, then yes, the whole meeting/dating/relationship process can be rather random, concerning surface aspects of both yourself and others. You don't really start to get to know someone until at least several months into the dating process and spending quite a bit of time together. You really need to see how they behave/respond to a variety of stressful circumstances to see how they respond in a crisis if possible. The early dating period is just all about trying to have a pleasant, good time, sex, thrills, fun, whatever. That's the easy part. A real relationship requires an understanding by both parties that much more is involved, the capacity and desire to stick with each other and with the relationship when everything is not all rainbows and roses, the desire of each of you to pick up the slack if necessary for the other, although there has to be mutuality obviously, all give and no take doesn't work, although it may be one party is stronger in some areas than the other and they complement each other to some extent.
vestigalvirgin Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 I wanted to try to respond to your post in a little more detail. I used to be open to the idea of dating a wide variety of guys. That was partly a result of my low self esteem - I would hop into a relationship with practically any guy who gave me attention -- and partly a result of my lack of experience and knowledge of what qualities were incompatible with my own. There's nothing wrong with dating a wide variety of different people, in fact it's a good way of learning about where your strengths and weaknesses lay. With experience you can start to narrow your focus. At this point I've boxed myself in. After being bruised and disillusioned by experience, it seems like I see potential incompatibilities in every single guy. OK this is an important insight but don't take the wrong lesson from it. Undoubtedly you WILL absolutely have incompatibilities of some kind with ANYONE you get into a serious relationship with. This is natural, you are different people. The key to having a successful relationship is ability/willingness to address the incompatibilities in a mutually satisfactory way. But you should not expect to find someone with whom you are 100 percent compatible with, that's probably impossible. For anyone. It's not like I'm turning down dates. For whatever reason I almost never get asked out. (More on that later.) This is a different issue. Getting more dates is probably more a function of some rather simple behavioral tactics, techniques or tricks. For a reasonably attractive woman as you apparently are it may be pretty simple. Anyway, I'm in the process of trying to learn from a bad breakup what I should look for in a man. Trouble is it's only taught me what I don't need, not what I do. It's hard for me to envision anybody that I'd be compatible with. I'm not sure how much a failed relationship is going to teach you about what you should be looking for in a future relationship. Relationships fail for many reasons. Yes you have to be compatible on CORE values. But pretty much everything else in a relationship can be reasonably negotiable. So: what are your CORE values? What is it when you look down in the essence of your being, that you really ARE? Don't look outside yourself, look within yourself. What I want in a relationship: Someone with a very high level of personal integrity. Someone who will love me enough not to overlook or ignore my faults but will help me address them to make me a better person. Someone who will "have my back" through thick and thin, good times & bad. I also know I need to be able to give that out too. Maybe I need to be able to expose that vulnerable part of myself to be able to find someone with compatibility. Someone has to make the first move. -I know that I don't do well with typical "beta" males (stereotypical nice guys, people pleasers) because I lose respect for them, they aren't assertive, and because they are often weak and insecure at core which leads to relationship difficulties. I've dated enough guys like this to know it really, really doesn't work for me. ...or maybe you just haven't found the right one? -I don't do well with younger guys because they lack maturity and experience. You must be dating in a pretty young age range, early 20's maybe? -But I don't know if I'd do well with alpha males either (super confident, outgoing men). Guys like this tend to be at least somewhat arrogant and self-absorbed, which naturally turns me off. They also tend to be judgmental about the fact that I'm on the shy side. In fact, I mix so badly with guys like this that they often act noticeably hostile to me even if we only have to interact on a minimal basis. In other words, I've never dated a guy like this but I can't imagine it'd work out. We'd probably both drive each other crazy. Sounds like your break up has been rather traumatizing to you and maybe you're just not ready for a serious relationship right now, and might not be for some time yet. And it's not like I want to be super picky. I'm just anticipating potential relationships problems based on my experience. You should be super picky but super picky concerning core values once you have decided what they are, for you. Super picky on the core values; flexible on the rest of it. I feel like the kind of guy who would be compatible with me doesn't exist or is so rare that I'm unlikely to meet him. He'd probably have to be genuinely confident and strong without being arrogant and self absorbed. He'd also have to be accepting of my faults: my social anxiety and my moments of depression. And he'd have to be assertive about his needs, and not bottle stuff up. The kind of guy you describe does exist but is in high demand and probably does not stay on the dating market for very long. To get this kind of "premium" guy might require you to "raise your game" to another level, not the surface game, but your inner game. Figuring out who you are and what you want is not easy for anyone. Then add on the fact that I don't seem to be in hot demand, and it seems like I'll never find somebody. Whenever I'm with a guy he always seems bowled over by my looks, and people frequently call me attractive, but I never get asked out. So who knows. It's always been a bit of a mystery to me. For the record, I'm thin and I have a nice, proportionate body. My face, I can never decide on. Nobody would ever call it below average, though. Overall, I'm at least above average or maybe average on my absolute worst day. It may be that my shyness and lack of a social life are partly to blame for the lack of attention I get. As noted maybe you are just not ready for another relationship right now and you are giving off a rejecting vibe to people even if you don't realize it. So what do I do? I've sort of lost faith in ever finding a happy relationship. You don't find happy relationships, you create them. It's not going to be handed to you on a silver platter. You start with yourself, and then work from there. You will begin to magically attract compatible people when you are ready for it. Be the kind of person you want to be in a relationship with. Is it necessary to change myself? The last few months since my breakup I've been working hard on doing that, but there's realistically only so much I can change. It might be helpful if you actually sit down with a piece of paper, and actually write down the specific characteristics you are looking for in a guy, physical, mental, emotional, financial, and so forth; write down what you want to avoid; and highlight the dealbreakers one way or the other. Once you have figured this out, you can then develop a strategy of where to find someone who meets as many of your criteria for a man as possible.
Green Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 Your a GIRL... Some guy will find you and figure out how to GET you.
Author shadowplay Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 Thanks for you detailed responses, everybody. I'll address them all in this post rather than individually to save time. I agree with you that my categorization of men in my initial post was simplistic. Maybe it's just that the break up of my last relationship was a blow to my self esteem, which makes it harder for me to envision me being compatible with any man. I hope that after fully healing from this break up my self esteem recovers to the point that I can be more open minded. The core values thing is always a bit confusing to me, because I feel like most people look for similar positive qualities in a mate. Maybe it's the less universally good qualities that really gets at what makes some people compatible with you but not with others. I know what core values I look for, but I'm clueless as to what non universally good qualities I need. Core values I need in a partner: -inner strength, and the ability to deal with relationship/life stress without really hurting partner. -tolerance for flaws in partner, as long as they aren't real incompatibilities. -confidence. I'm not talking about exterior confidence, but whether the person is fairly secure on a deeper level. -Strong sense of self/identity - this goes along with some form of maturity -Honesty and reliability. Doesn't reneg on prior commitments -Assertiveness -Emotional availability -empathetic -- able to care about other people I think those the are the main things. Then add in intelligence and being at least somewhat driven as necessary traits. Still leaves me with a kind of vague sense of what I need. Aren't these traits most people look for? I'll try to be more patient with myself, as suggested, and hope that a better sense of what I'm looking for emerges as I grow on a personal level.
threebyfate Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 Examples of a few core values: What's your concept of family?Where do you prioritize personal integrity?What does integrity mean to you?
bayouboi Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 Core values I need in a partner: -must be flawless -tolerance for flaws in partner tough shoes to fill
Author shadowplay Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 tough shoes to fill Lol. I never said they had to be flawless by any means.
Author shadowplay Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 It might be helpful if you actually sit down with a piece of paper, and actually write down the specific characteristics you are looking for in a guy, physical, mental, emotional, financial, and so forth; write down what you want to avoid; and highlight the dealbreakers one way or the other. Once you have figured this out, you can then develop a strategy of where to find someone who meets as many of your criteria for a man as possible. Ok here goes. I've stripped down wants to needs, bare minimum. Things I absolutely cannot do without in no particular order. Then I've written another list about which of these qualities I can offer at this point: 1. intelligent 2. Emotionally Mature. This is a big one and encompasses qualities like emotional availability and ability to commit to the right partner, emotional stability: everybody has some mood swings but I cant be with someone who will value me one day and devalue me the next. 3. Physically attractive to me. They don't need to be handsome by other people's standards. I just need to find them physically attractive. 4. Inner strength enoughto take care of self and be there for partner through thick and thin. 5. Sane -- Also encompasses a lot of stuff. I'm willing to accept some psychological issues, but I can't be with somebody who has a major, untreated personality/psychological disorder. I'm pretty tolerant, though. If somebody has a history of episodes but they're now in treatment and have had it under control for awhile, I'm willing to try it out and see if it works in the long term. I also refuse to be with somebody who is destructive towards self and/or others. No addictions, aggressive behaviors or self mutilation. Again, if they did this stuff in the past but have since received treatment, I'm willing to try it out but I'll be cautious. 6. Honest and reliable -- pretty self explanatory. 7. Accepting of my flaws. They can encourage me to work on stuff, but obviously they need to accept who I am on a basic level. 8. Ambitious, not lazy. They don't need to be rich or super successful, as long as they value self actualizing on a career/creative level and they're consistently working toward that goal. 9. Fiscally responsible. My dad is the opposite and I see how miserable it makes my mother. I can't be with somebody who wastes money and never opens his mail. 10. Assertive. They need to bring up relationship issues rather than bottling up grievances. 11. Helpful with chores. Again, this comes from growing up with a father who never helped my mother with basic stuff around the house. I think that's it. I might strip it down even more by combining a few qualities that are related. 1. Intelligent 2. Emotionally mature: encompasses emotionally available, stable, strong, assertive. 3. Physically attractive to me. 4. Sane. 5. Honest. 6. Ambitious 7. Helpful. 8. Fiscally responsible. Here's me: 1. Intelligent. Yes. 2. Emotionally mature: emotionally available. Yes. Stable. Yes. Strong. In the sense that I won't abandon a partner when things get tough, yes. Working on being stronger for myself. Assertive. Yes. 3. Physically attractive to other person. Depends on the person, but I know I'm attractive to some. 4. Sane. Yes and no. Although I do have a history of major depression and a disorder called Body Dysmorphia. I'm currently in treatment for both. Still somewhat depressed, but getting it under control. 5. Honest. Yes. For full disclosure I cheated on one boyfriend, but I've genuinely changed since then. 6. Ambitious. Yes. 7. Helpful. Yes and no. While I can be helpful, I'm more dependent on other people than I'd like to be. Currently working on it. 8 Fiscally responsible. Yes and no. I don't waste money, but I haven't been as proactive at earning as I'd like. Working on it. In summary... Qualities I currently offer that I need in a partner: 1. Intelligence 2. Physical attractiveness (to some) 3. Emotional maturity, with the exception of sometimes not being strong for myself. 4. Honesty 5. Ambitiousness Qualities I don't at this time fully offer that I'm working on: 1. Strong for myself 2. Sane in the sense that I've had my psychological issues under control for a long enough time. 3. Helpful 4. Fiscally responsible. Is that too much about myself to change?
Author shadowplay Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 (edited) Examples of a few core values: What's your concept of family?Where do you prioritize personal integrity?What does integrity mean to you? -Well, I'd like to have kids some day, so I need to be somebody who wants the same or is at least very open to the idea. My belief is that parents should be very involved in the lives of their children, but not involved to the point of smothering, entangling or controlling. I believe that when children are young parents should not put too many demands on their kids or rely on them for support (whether emotional or other), while at the same time teaching them to be helpful and independent. It's a fine line. Later in life when the kids are adults, the giving and taking should be more mutual. When the parents become elderly, the kids should fall into a more care-taking role. I believe that people should not have kids to fill an emotional void, to feel loved/respected by another person or to control another person. Too many people make this mistake. They should have kids because they value family and they want to give love. I want somebody who values family, but places their immediate family (wife, kids) ahead of their family of origin. Family (immediate, then extended) should come first, with career a close second. -Personal integrity is, and has always been, extremely important to me. -Integrity to me means having a definite sense of your values and adhering to those values in how you behave and treat others, even when it's hard to do so. It also means having a strong, independent sense of who you are, rather than a wobbly identity that changes periodically or is strongly influenced by what others think. Your identity and your actions shouldn't be based on what you think appeals to other people but what you personally value. Edited July 8, 2010 by shadowplay
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