stace79 Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 In discussing marriage with my LDR bf, this topic has come up several times. It started when his aunt, who was married for about 20 years and had two teenage children, just "revealed" to her husband (my bf's uncle) that she had been unhappy for many years and wanted a divorce. I think this is totally unacceptable. My opinion is this: when you choose to get engaged and be married, you are choosing to commit your life to your partner. That means you darn well better know them before you marry, because with the exceptions of cheating or abuse (or death, obviously) you are stuck with them forever. You will obviously both grow and change throughout life, but regardless, you are committed to that person. My bf mentioned a few times that it is possible to meet and fall in love with someone else even though you are committed/married, and if that happens, then obviously you weren't "meant to be" with your SO. I think that is crap. Again, my opinion: if you're committed to someone or married, and you meet another girl/guy to whom you're attracted, you should avoid that person to avoid intensifying those feelings. You don't allow yourself to spend time with said girl/guy, because you're committed to your partner and "forsake all others". My mother says that my view is based on my religious upbringing and also because intense loyalty just runs in our family. It seems that not many people -- especially not men -- share this point of view on marriage/commitment, and my mother also says that to find someone sharing that loyalty I'll need to marry a man I meet in church. Problem is, I no longer go to church. How does everyone else feel about this?
She's_NotInLove_w/Me Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 I do not feel that meeting a man in church guarantees that he will be any more loyal, committed or faithful than meeting him in a bar quite frankly... I do agree that the likelihood of someone who goes to a bar a couple of times a week or more being less loyal, committed and faithful than someone who truly believes in the church and faith and the sanctity of marriage. But you could meet either of those guys at a grocery store, gym or through a friend... I consider myself to be highly pro marriage and would advocate working through most marriage problems if it is at all worth it. But unfortunately, I do believe that divorce is an option... A last resort of sorts. Feeling stuck because you do not believe in divorce would be like prison... Staying in a perpetually unhappy situation and not living your life to it's fullest is a shame. I think the problem with couple these days is that they do not fully explore the possibilities when it comes to working on it. And lastly, I think these days men in stable LTR & marriages (5-10+ years or more) tend to be more committed than women... but that's just my humble opinion!
Author stace79 Posted July 6, 2010 Author Posted July 6, 2010 I consider myself to be highly pro marriage and would advocate working through most marriage problems if it is at all worth it. But unfortunately, I do believe that divorce is an option... A last resort of sorts. Feeling stuck because you do not believe in divorce would be like prison... Staying in a perpetually unhappy situation and not living your life to it's fullest is a shame. I think the problem with couple these days is that they do not fully explore the possibilities when it comes to working on it. See, that's just the thing. I feel like you have to know someone well enough to know that nothing HUGE is going to change -- obviously we all change a bit as we age and mature more. If you don't think you can be happy in a committed marriage for the rest of your lives, then people shouldn't be getting married. What's the point? Just be in a "committed" long-term relationship, but don't get married.
She's_NotInLove_w/Me Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 See, that's just the thing. I feel like you have to know someone well enough to know that nothing HUGE is going to change -- obviously we all change a bit as we age and mature more. If you don't think you can be happy in a committed marriage for the rest of your lives, then people shouldn't be getting married. What's the point? Just be in a "committed" long-term relationship, but don't get married. I can actually see your point of view in both statements. As a father of 5, my kids better give way too much consideration to who they are marrying.... But at the same time, don't waste years deciding whether to get married or not. Marry for the right reasons. Have the best of intentions. "Make your marriage the best example around, even better than the one me and your mom showed you (not that tough I guess... lol). Don't even think that divorce is an option..." But at the same time if one of my kids was in an abusive relationship, was married to an addict, or had been unhappy for many years, divorce may be an option. After you have thoroughly worked through the issues, then you can look at dissolving the marriage... other factors prevail too - children? Your partners desire to work at it, etc... If divorce was truly not an option one may go a good portion of their lives unhappy and/or feeling like they are in a prison of their own making...
Author stace79 Posted July 6, 2010 Author Posted July 6, 2010 I can actually see your point of view in both statements. As a father of 5, my kids better give way too much consideration to who they are marrying.... But at the same time, don't waste years deciding whether to get married or not. Marry for the right reasons. Have the best of intentions. "Make your marriage the best example around, even better than the one me and your mom showed you (not that tough I guess... lol). Don't even think that divorce is an option..." But at the same time if one of my kids was in an abusive relationship, was married to an addict, or had been unhappy for many years, divorce may be an option. After you have thoroughly worked through the issues, then you can look at dissolving the marriage... other factors prevail too - children? Your partners desire to work at it, etc... If divorce was truly not an option one may go a good portion of their lives unhappy and/or feeling like they are in a prison of their own making... I agree with divorce in the instances of abuse or cheating, as you mentioned. And I think a lot of things can consistute abuse -- drug addiction, alcohol or gambling addiction, criminal behavior, mental or emotional abuse, etc. I just think too many people get married b/c they think they're "supposed" to, and don't really take the time to get to know their SO prior to making that commitment. I am glad you are doing your best to instill those values in your kids. It's just so disappointing to think that maybe I might not ever be married b/c I can't find someone with similar values. I love my bf now, but I'm truly concerned about the conflicts for us in this aspect.
Married_and_Lonely Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 It seems odd that you support your statement of "divorce is NOT an option" by emphasizing how well they should know each other before getting married. What does one have to do with the other? Good luck on getting couples to make a purely logical decision in who they marry, regardless of emotions and physical attraction. Mistakes are going to be made when people marry for the wrong reasons, which does happen all the time. So you're advocating two wrongs makes a right? If someone makes a mistake, they can't fix the mistake and get their life back on the right path of happiness? Marry at 25, 5 years later you both realize you made a horrible mistake, but sorry, you need to live the next 40 - 50 years unhappy because of your mistake. That's ridiculous.
Author stace79 Posted July 6, 2010 Author Posted July 6, 2010 It seems odd that you support your statement of "divorce is NOT an option" by emphasizing how well they should know each other before getting married. What does one have to do with the other? Good luck on getting couples to make a purely logical decision in who they marry, regardless of emotions and physical attraction. Mistakes are going to be made when people marry for the wrong reasons, which does happen all the time. So you're advocating two wrongs makes a right? If someone makes a mistake, they can't fix the mistake and get their life back on the right path of happiness? Marry at 25, 5 years later you both realize you made a horrible mistake, but sorry, you need to live the next 40 - 50 years unhappy because of your mistake. That's ridiculous. Well... yeah. That's exactly what I think. If you think there's even an inkling that this person isn't the love OF YOUR LIFE, then don't get married. Marriage is a commitment before God, and if you can't honor THAT commitment, then I don't know what commitment you would honor.
Scrybe Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Stace79 - I don't think your viewpoint is that uncommon actually. I just think it's a standard so close to perfection that most people just can't meet it. It would be great if you had some guarantee that the person you married wouldn't change or was honest or was mentally and emotionally sound but no matter how well you think you know someone there is always the possibility that they will change on you. The same can be said for yourself. People's motivations for getting married vary and since most 1st marriages happen during the early to mid twenties it's possible that one or both of them didn't really have an understanding of who they are inside and what they are doing. I'm not condoning that people take their vows lightly. I'm just saying a little compassion can go along way when people make mistakes. And people make mistakes all of the time. Including marrying the wrong person. It is also very easy to pass judgement on people when you haven't walked in their shoes. Waking up 9 years into a marriage only to realize you've been living a lie is deep. I don't think the first response should be to end the marriage but I do have sympathy for that person. And I applaude them for facing something that most people swallow deep inside. A pain that they refuse to face because it could mean the end of their marriage and family. Acknowledging the truth isn't actually the hardest part though it is traumatic. The real courage is in doing whatever you can to salvage your life and the life of your family - preferrably together. And if that's not possible...that what else is there? Throw the rest of your life away and just sit and wait to die or for your partner to die? Why? Now...in my opionion ---I think if more people went into marriage knowing that their partner was free to leave when they needed or wanted to (which is the reality) then maybe both would work harder at keeping the relationship healthy instead of setting it on autopilot because "your stuck together until death". Just read the tons and tons of threads people have written about a wife or husband who has suddenly or gradually lost interest in sex and/o intimacy. What is that person supposed to do after trying everything in their power to get their partner to participate? Are they doomed to a life without love, sex or intimacy because "too bad" they should have known this person better and known this would happen? People lie. Actively and passively. It happens all the time. Anyhoo - ultimately I get where you're coming from. I do agree that people should take marriage vows more seriously. I think premarital counseling should be mandatory. And not that casual excuse for pre marital counseling people get nowadays. I mean comprehensive counseling sessions that dig deep. And couples should do it BEFORE they announce a date. And the couple should go into counseling with the understanding that when the counseling session is done - there is a real possibility that the marriage should be called off or at least postponed. In my case my wife to be and myself discovered some fairly serious misunderstandings. We also became aware of the some differences in values that would have caused some problems for us down the line. Fortunately we were able to deal with those differences honestly and openly during our PMC and came to a happy understanding. It's frightening to know that there was still so much about each other we didn't know...and that was after 5 years! 2 of which we lived together AND we had a child together. I'm glad we did it though and I'm glad both of us felt safe telling each other the truth - without judgement. But - the reasons for failed marriages aren't so black and white all the time. Few things in life are.
vestigalvirgin Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 It doesn't sound like your LDR bf shares your values 100% on this particular issue. Since it's a very important issue, more discussion with your bf about this might be warranted. ("Discussion," not "argument.")
Author stace79 Posted July 6, 2010 Author Posted July 6, 2010 It doesn't sound like your LDR bf shares your values 100% on this particular issue. Since it's a very important issue, more discussion with your bf about this might be warranted. ("Discussion," not "argument.") I agree. While I love him dearly, I don't know that I could commit myself to him in a marriage because, barring abuse or cheating, I will not be okay with a divorce. I will be married once, and that's it.
Married_and_Lonely Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 I will be married once, and that's it. We finally agree on something!
Ronni_W Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 I feel like you have to know someone well enough to know that nothing HUGE is going to change -- obviously we all change a bit as we age and mature more. stace, Your view of marriage is not all that uncommon...but your view of how people age, grow, develop and change is not so realistic. Some people change "a bit", others change not at all, and still others change a HUGE amount. It can happen at age 30, 60 or 90, and all points in-between. None of us knows for ourselves -- that would take a crystal ball or some seriously accurate clairvoyance -- so we certainly can't guess at and assume about it, for others. We cannot guarantee to our mate, "I won't change too much (or not enough)"...and we cannot expect such a guarantee from them, either. There isn't, unfortunately, a realistic away for them to guarantee that they will love us forever. They just don't know. They may feel it now, and they may WANT to allay our fears for all time...but they just don't know what their (or your) future holds. And neither do we, obviously. "Till Death Us Do Part" is a commitment and a promise and a vow and a desire, yes. But it just does not function as a guarantee. When it comes down to that, there is just mutual hope and faith...and keeping fingers crossed. And, of course, working daily to nurture and encourage Love in the midst of all the challenges and changes, no matter their size and timing.
lso802 Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Right now, I don't want to get married any time in my life. From observing married couples so far (not all of course), I just see that marriage is what tears them apart. If two people are in a relationship, I think they should be free to leave any time without legal bindings. What keeps them there is themselves. Although the individuals may have known each other extremely well, when they married, people change. It's kind of like friendships that grow apart. Just because we no longer share the same paths and passions in life, it does not mean we respect them any less. It's just we change. It happens. To stay in a marriage where you're no longer in love with the person out of commitment would be a disservice for both individuals involved. You'd have to have both agree on this, but most times, at least one differs. That's what leads to affairs, letting the unhappiness out on the kids, etc.... It's more responsible to get a divorce, when things aren't working out.
Woggle Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 This view is rare amongst women but not men. I am somewhere in the middle. Chances are you have nothing to worry about since for the most part it is not men these days walking out of marriage on a whim.
worlybear Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 :rolleyes:Just look on all the posters on the infidelity forum for a reality check. Going into a marriage or indeed any full commitment with an," 'til death us do part," is, sadly, completely unrealistic in the 21st century. By all means go ahead but be aware your idea of happy ever after is naieve and unlikely to suceed permanently. Sorry if that sounds grim but I think its a more honest perception than pretending, in the light of all the people on this web site alone, that marriage is magically for ever.,
Ronni_W Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 (edited) OP, do not feel despairing on account of Wogs . He actually has a very loving wife and happy marriage Chances are you have nothing to worry about since for the most part it is not men these days walking out of marriage on a whim. Most semi-sane, semi-intelligent, semi-psychologically healthy people, men or women, do not walk out on of a happy, supportive, loving, respectful, inspiring marriage on a "whim", Wogs. Either or both, your ex-wife was not that and/or the marriage that you both created together was not like that. Boils down to your unwise choice for a(n) (ex)wife, or your inability to join forces with her to build a strong, happy, healthy marriage that was good for BOTH. You are correct, though, that, these days, most (not all) semi-sane, semi-intelligent, semi-psychologically healthy women are NOT ready, willing or able to just put up with any crappy old relationship that their husband wants them to make do with -- these women are realizing that they deserve more...SO MUCH MORE. But decisions that come from high self-esteem and high self-worth are the FURTHEST things from whimsical. That's just too funny! Edited July 6, 2010 by Ronni_W
Woggle Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Most of the men I know who get walked out on are good men. The crappy husbands I know never seem to get divorced. They put themselves first and do it openly and their wives seem to respect them for it. The good men who woship the ground their wives walk are getting betrayed and dumped left and right I have a great wife but I know how rare her type are. The OP only has a 25% chance of her husband walking out on her so she doesn't have much to worry about.
LittleTiger Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 I don't know where you get your statistics from Woggle but they are NOT accurate. stace79, your view of marriage probably isn't uncommon among young, unmarried people. I used to think the same as you. 20 years later and almost divorced (not my choice) I see things somewhat differently. This is what I just wrote in another current thread (in case you missed it): http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2876106&postcount=18
Woggle Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 I don't know if it is exactly 75% but it is close to that figure. The truth is that is mainly women driving the high divorce rate. They initiate the overwhelming majority of divorces.
LittleTiger Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 I don't know if it is exactly 75% but it is close to that figure. The truth is that is mainly women driving the high divorce rate. They initiate the overwhelming majority of divorces. Woggle, I don't know how many times I have to point this out to you but just because most divorces are FILED by women doesn't mean they were the ones who wanted out of the marriage! This statistic tells you NOTHING about who walked out on who.
Author stace79 Posted July 6, 2010 Author Posted July 6, 2010 Most of the men I know who get walked out on are good men. The crappy husbands I know never seem to get divorced. They put themselves first and do it openly and their wives seem to respect them for it. The good men who woship the ground their wives walk are getting betrayed and dumped left and right. Those men of whom you speak typically date/marry arm candy gold-diggers. That doesn't really count, because the women don't really love those men either... just the money & status. Stace- you are not alone, and your view is not uncommon. What you are describing is known as a covenant marriage, which is recognized in a handful of states in the US. My fiancé and I are looking into it. Thank God someone out there has the same belief. I am getting really discouraged. I really wonder if I will ever be able to marry anyone -- even my current bf who I really love so much. I will look into the covenant marriage, too. Thanks!
Woggle Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Most of these men are actually working class italians who married at a young age. They are not what you would call evolved men but they have strong marriages. On the other the evolved yuppies I know are getting divorced left and right.
LittleTiger Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Thank God someone out there has the same belief. I am getting really discouraged. I really wonder if I will ever be able to marry anyone -- even my current bf who I really love so much. I will look into the covenant marriage, too. Thanks! See, that's just the thing. I feel like you have to know someone well enough to know that nothing HUGE is going to change -- obviously we all change a bit as we age and mature more. If you don't think you can be happy in a committed marriage for the rest of your lives, then people shouldn't be getting married. What's the point? Just be in a "committed" long-term relationship, but don't get married. stace, I really, really hope that you find what you are looking for. I am just concerned that your expectations are unrealistic and you will get badly hurt when reality dawns. I knew my husband for 22 years before we got together - we were friends since childhood. I thought we knew each other VERY well but, guess what, when you live together things change. It doesn't have to be huge to make a massive impact on your relationship. When we got together the whole world (including us) expected it to be for life. Both of our families and all our friends thought we were made for each other and we were - but apparently not forever. Both of our families have very strong moral values and we are the first on both sides to get divorced. As I've said before, NOT my choice (despite the fact that I was the one who filed for the divorce). I'm curious about your LDR. If you have such a strong belief about this and your boyfriend clearly thinks very differenty, how can this relationship lead to marriage? LDRs are hell, but if you intend to be together eventually for life, they are worth the sacrifice. If you and your boyfriend have such glaringly obvious differences of opinion surely you won't want to waste any more time pursuing this relationship, however much you love him?
Author stace79 Posted July 6, 2010 Author Posted July 6, 2010 stace, I really, really hope that you find what you are looking for. I am just concerned that your expectations are unrealistic and you will get badly hurt when reality dawns. I knew my husband for 22 years before we got together - we were friends since childhood. I thought we knew each other VERY well but, guess what, when you live together things change. It doesn't have to be huge to make a massive impact on your relationship. When we got together the whole world (including us) expected it to be for life. Both of our families and all our friends thought we were made for each other and we were - but apparently not forever. Both of our families have very strong moral values and we are the first on both sides to get divorced. As I've said before, NOT my choice (despite the fact that I was the one who filed for the divorce). I'm curious about your LDR. If you have such a strong belief about this and your boyfriend clearly thinks very differenty, how can this relationship lead to marriage? LDRs are hell, but if you intend to be together eventually for life, they are worth the sacrifice. If you and your boyfriend have such glaringly obvious differences of opinion surely you won't want to waste any more time pursuing this relationship, however much you love him? First off, I don't think I am living in a fantasy world. I am very well aware that not many people share my beliefs. Second, I think the problem is that my beliefs about marriage are rooted in a very strong belief in God and my religious faith. This is why my mother always tells me I'd have to find a man in church who shares the same belief I do. I think the difference between me and most people is that my marriage vows are not just between me and my future husband, but also between me and God, and due to my strong religious faith, it would be nearly impossible for me to divorce except in the case of abuse or adultery (which are Biblically acceptable reasons for breaking a marriage vow). I don't know what will happen between my bf and I. I love him very much, and I believe that he loves me. Maybe marriage will not be in the cards for us. We've already been engaged and broken up for about six months due to some pretty extreme circumstances (not related to this). I honestly don't know what I will do regarding marriage in my life. But it is definitely a concern of mine. The good news is that he is on the same page as me as far as taking things slowly.
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