She's_NotInLove_w/Me Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 I'm not even going to blame one person here--but it got physical and ended with a broken bone. And he was unapologetic. This is not "workable", imo. This is an abusive relationship, possibly mutually so. Yes, I agree, this is how I would like my own child to view their relationship. Zero tolerance for any physical abuse... But 21 years, and one incident? Not a deal breaker in my book. 21 weeks, 21 months, yeah, both should be done. But if it happened once after many, many years... that does not sound like a abusive wife or husband to me.
Spark1111 Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 These issues are definitely workable... IMHO, people on these boards are often quick to dismiss and take a "get a divorce and a fresh start" attitude... First of all your resentment and decision to no longer approach him for sex is a huge roadblock. For all of your years together you have always approached him... I am not for a second saying you should share yourself with your husband and be intimate with him when you have no desire to do so. But you need to get to the root of why you feel the way you do, and start there at resolving that issue. I feel you are hypersensitive to his every action. Way too tightly wound. If you and him were intimate (and both totally into it) several times a week, he would have zero interest and energy to spend elsewhere sexually. Now, don't get me wrong, I know that it is obviously a HUGE gap from where you’re at now... but the two of you need to figure out how to get there. All that said there is an opportunity for him to make strides in his relationship with his wife too. You must make him aware of that, and in a respectful, non-confrontational way, communicate to him what you most need from him. To me the obvious would be his fidelity on all levels (not just physical), but I am very sure there is more you want and need than just that. Define those needs and wants, putting them in words, and communicating them effectively could go a long way. I am thinking a well thought out letter perhaps. You know that with all you have already been through that the two of you can make this work if you want to. It's a choice. Good Luck! Good advice here! resentment, whether well-deserved or not, can poison a romantic relationship. The rule of thumb is five compliments to every criticism. If you are in a postion where no one is complementing each other, or a score-card is being kept regarding past transgressions, you may be doomed to fail. Get a good MC and grab him by the hand and go. Figure out what the main issues are for you and for him. Is it a lack of respect? Complacency? Poor communication? Anyone of those can kill love and romance. And secondly, be the change YOU WISH TO SEE in the relationship. More kindness? Be kinder. More consideration? Be more considerate? More help? Be more helpful. Change starts with you.
xxoo Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Yes, I agree, this is how I would like my own child to view their relationship. Zero tolerance for any physical abuse... But 21 years, and one incident? Not a deal breaker in my book. 21 weeks, 21 months, yeah, both should be done. But if it happened once after many, many years... that does not sound like a abusive wife or husband to me. If not a dealbreaker, it is a screaming RED FLAG. After that incident, serious action was necessary. Non-negotiable counseling, or divorce. I guess what bothers me most is that they seem to have trudged on past that major incident without addressing it at all. And, she confronted him one time in 15 years, and he broke her finger. Op, how has that affected your willingness to confront him since? Op, all I'm saying is, you are in NO way obligated to stay with someone who has physically assaulted you. Even if it was only one time. And, if you have a group of friends in similar situations, you need some stronger friends
vestigalvirgin Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 AVR, it sounds like you and your husband have never actually learned how to have effective communication and conflict-resolution skills. This has resulted in a lot of pent-up anger and acting out, perhaps on both sides of the relationship. What you need to do now is to decide what you are trying to accomplish for the future of this relationship, and how to get there. That includes possibly ending it through divorce, but not necessarily. Unfortunately you're not going to be able to get much satisfaction for things that happened in the past, so you have to be forward-looking with this stuff.
Jack & Coke Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Thank you yet again Califnan.....reavulating is and trying to find myself in all of this is what I am trying to do right now. I think some of the others only read my posts in part and focused where there should not have been focus. The advice I gave you focused on the big picture yet you ignored it. Like I said, if you want this thing to work you're going to have tackle the big issues you have with your husband and work your way down. But in the process of doing this you MUST, MUST, MUST treat each case on an individual basis and not let his past mistakes (I'm sure there were many) take you from zero to 60 any time he does something you don't like. Like I said with the pool example, if you had corrected him instead of storming out I'm willing to bet that entire trip would have been different. So the next time he approaches you in a way that's a turn-off or that you feel objectifies you correct him without holding the past mistakes against him. The two of you can't change what has already happened, so if divorce is not an option you need to mentally start from scratch and work on BUILDING instead of tearing each other down. This is going to take an extreme amount of patience, understanding and communication on both sides.
georgia girl Posted July 6, 2010 Posted July 6, 2010 Gosh, AVR, reading your second post was a little more eye opening. You have a lot of resentment in you - not unwarranted, I don't think - but its eating you alive. I can't tell you if your marriage is salvable or not, but I think there are several major issues you need to overcome to make your marriage work: 1) Your feeling of resentment and being held at arm's length. This is soul-destroying. I was once in a very serious relationship with a man who did the same thing. I got out before I married him and I'm so grateful now. That feeling of rejection leads to incredible anger and hurt. I can't imagine how it must feel after 15 years. Part of this will be his challenge (how can he do measurable things to qualify your meaning in his life so that you feel appreciated) and some of this will be your challenge (how can you let go of the resentment)? 2) Establishing boundaries that respect the partner and the relationship. You hate the porn and other women. It makes you feel diminished and unimportant. It also sounds like sex then becomes dirty instead of sensual and sexy. He needs to respect those boundaries, absolutely or get out. That would be a huge deal breaker for me. 3) Physical violence. Whether it was you who initiated it or he who committed the final act, that is an absolute deal breaker in my mind. No one gets to touch another person, male or female. We teach that to preschool kids but somehow there are some who can't abide by it as adults. I'm not judging either of you but I do think its something you have to address as a couple. 4) How to have fun/enjoy your relationship again. I'll be the first person to say that relationships are work and if you don't think they're work, you're being naive. But, there should also be a fun element to all of that work. I'm going to be a newlywed, so its all pretty much fun right now. But my siblings have been married for about 20 years. They both have fun in their relationships, despite kids, bills, work pressures and family issues (both of my in-laws had significant family issues that my siblings had to deal with). Perhaps counselling would help, but I don't sense there's a willingness on either of your part to really make that work. Perhaps individual counselling for you as you're the one who is tortured by this. My best to you. I'm getting married in three months with all of the hopes and dreams that implies. I'm on the very high end of that roller coaster right now. I feel so badly to hear of someone hurting like you are. I hope that you find your way back up to a good place again, either single or married. Take care.
Author AVR1962 Posted July 7, 2010 Author Posted July 7, 2010 All the recent replies are so dead-on tract (accurate). Communication from me has continually been blocked and received poorly (ignored). If he apologized or agrees to something, he doesn't follow thru or things continue the same. I wish the sex 3 times a week would make a difference but I have tried and it doesn't. We have talked about me scratching his back (giving him what he wants) to receivce my back scratch (what I want) and that never works. It is like my husband is afraid of intimacy which I feel I need. He wants sex and he wants me to be the one to initiate. And yes, I switched the game up (which might be a bad thing on my part) but somehow something has to change. I have always belived communication was the key but I am not feeling like I am being heard so I am taking a silent approach and really trying to find me, find some answers for myself, trying to figure out what I want, and where I need to go from here. I watched a movie not long ago where a soldier was dealing with post traumatic stress disorder and if I coudl ever identify. I have stuffed so much down over the years, and it's not just me, I have several friends ages mid 40's- 50 which have been in 20 year+ marriages and the women are not happy. Like myself our roles have been focused on our children and to please our husbands abut when we lost along the way there becomes a great deal of hurt and resentment. And yes, it is a 2 part situation in each case as well as my own but trying to unravel what's already happened isn't all that easy because the past wants to haunt and revisit. I think there has to be change, a willing change on both parts to make it work. One of my friends (and I know this is not me but the story is similiar) married for 27 years said she too just wanted peace and in order to do so she kept her mouth shut, she is a dedicated Christian woman who beleives that men should have the leading role in a family but after the kids were gone she realized just how much he ordered her around like he did the kids and the power play between them almost cost them their marriage. I think these long-term marriages endure as there are things that happen in bits and you deal with that piece but when you reflect that bits have been pretty traumatic at times....sometimes I think before to keep moving forward and try to not look back. To those who posted there was never any counseling to get thru the hardships, actually there's been a great deal of counseling as couples and individuals, and yes the counseling has helped. Just kind of exhausted right now. Thanks for all the replies and the support!
Author AVR1962 Posted July 7, 2010 Author Posted July 7, 2010 [quote=Jack & Coke Like I said with the pool example, if you had corrected him instead of storming out I'm willing to bet that entire trip would have been different. So the next time he approaches you in a way that's a turn-off or that you feel objectifies you correct him without holding the past mistakes against him. The two of you can't change what has already happened, so if divorce is not an option you need to mentally start from scratch and work on BUILDING instead of tearing each other down. This is going to take an extreme amount of patience, understanding and communication on both sides. Jack & Coke, I like your advise here. I actually didn't storm out but yes, I do have to work on verbalizing my hurts in these situations as I think my pushing them down is coming out pianfully later. I think of I have done it to try and keep peace. In the past, as calm and undertsanding as I have tried to talk to my husband about such (any) issues I think my reaction has become based on his reaction. Sometimes I feel like I am walking on eggshells (or broken glass) as there seems to way to approach my husband. If I tell him how I feel he gets his feelings hurt, starts his pouting stuff and many times will not talk to me for days and I feel I have been careful on approaching the subject. But maybe I need to try again. Thanks!
Author AVR1962 Posted July 7, 2010 Author Posted July 7, 2010 Gosh, AVR, reading your second post was a little more eye opening. You have a lot of resentment in you - not unwarranted, I don't think - but its eating you alive. 1) Your feeling of resentment and being held at arm's length. This is soul-destroying. I was once in a very serious relationship with a man who did the same thing. I got out before I married him and I'm so grateful now. That feeling of rejection leads to incredible anger and hurt. I can't imagine how it must feel after 15 years. Part of this will be his challenge (how can he do measurable things to qualify your meaning in his life so that you feel appreciated) and some of this will be your challenge (how can you let go of the resentment)? 2) Establishing boundaries that respect the partner and the relationship. You hate the porn and other women. It makes you feel diminished and unimportant. It also sounds like sex then becomes dirty instead of sensual and sexy. He needs to respect those boundaries, absolutely or get out. That would be a huge deal breaker for me. Thanks GeorgiaGirl, I think for me #1 & #2 are walking hand in hand. My first husband viewed porn and to me it was no big deal, we even viewed it together. I think it is the addiction in my second husband that is different, it seems he views women in a whole different way....I don't really think he respects women in general but rather sees them as objects for his lust and satifaction if that makes sense. The arm's distance for the intamacy I feel deprived of that is nonsexual and to see my husband so wrapped up in his desire to please himself mkae me feel I have no way into his world, and that probably seems strange to even read. By the sounds of his past relationships with women he has never been close and I not sure he is capable. As for me, I think I need to identify with why I am chosing men who are unavailable to me. I do have a book on the way and perhaps not the solution but I do need to find out why I am doing what I am doing as the choices I am making are only hurting me in the long run. Like the man you broke up with, I also dated a man in between marriages that loved me but I did not feel the same for him. I think in this marriage it seems the way I felt about the man I broke things off with. I could not give to the man that loved me as I did not feel the same. I wonder sometimes if my husband married for companionship, not being the persuer he maybe wasn't completely sure but saw I was interested and went ahead with the marriage and if he has never truely been in love with me I can see how he could not reach out. He was a young single dad who had custody of his sons, had a demanding career which put him on the road, and knowing how he departmentalizes I can see where he saw the need for a mother to his boys, we were having fun, I was the ideas girl and the persuer which were all great for him so he filed all his compartments, made his checks and continued on as all was taken care of and life as he'd always known it went on which meant the contiuation of all he was doing as a single person. That might sound weird but that seems like what has happened.....I have just kind of been along for the ride and as long as I can accept his lifestyle we're good.
Author AVR1962 Posted July 7, 2010 Author Posted July 7, 2010 The rule of thumb is five compliments to every criticism. If you are in a postion where no one is complementing each other, or a score-card is being kept regarding past transgressions, you may be doomed to fail. I like this, thank you....something I know I could work harder at! Here's something that puzzles me though, not related to compliments but rather to repeated habits and proper limitation within a marriage. My ex (married 7 years) was a cheater and we were very very active, sometimes 10 times in one day....three days would go by and he would be threatening me, saying he'd find it elsewhere if I didn't have sex with him so I learned just to put my mind somewhere else and go thru the motions after awhile. he wanted to have 3-somes, there were no limitations in his book. I drew the line with the 3-somes and refused. he knew what he was doing was wrong but said it was the way he wanted to live and had no intentions on stopping. He ran off with his affair lady who he thought was his answer, she left him, he was sheating on her too. He then remarried, did get his second wife into 3-somes but when he wanted to involve her best friend she too drew the limit and divorced him after 19 years of marriage. He is now with her best friend. Not the very same situation in my second marriage but the lack of proper boundaries to what is and what is not acceptable within a marriage does exist in the marriage too. He and I have talked about it and he sees what he is doing but it is almost like he has the attitude that if I want to be a part of his life I need to just accept and live with it. Going back a few years again with this but when he was all into his porn and drinking a 12 pack a day he told me I just needed to accept him for who he was. What he wasn't seeing if how bad his addictions were for him, our relationship and his sons which were all pointed out to him in counseling but we struggled with that for years.....11 years of lies and cover-ups, arguements, refusing couseling until something clicked one day. He claims to be porn-free for 8 years now, and maybe that addiction has turned more towards his lust for the girls that I see now? I don't know. I'm not saying he shoudl never look another woman but the way he looks is different.....he will see an actress on TV that he finds attractive and he immediately crosses his legs which is either to stop an erection or to cover up one but yet ratehr than identify that she is attractive he seems to be taking these sitautions a step further in his head. It's a little confusing for me. I don't see my husband relating to women with respect for who they are, his thoughts seem sexually oriented. Is this weird?
giotto Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 once an addict, always an addict... is he still drinking? He will substitute one addiction with another... his brain is wired that way (now)...
lucyskye Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 What's wrong with a sexually oriented compliment? You sound like a repressed stick in the mud! As someone who is currently working through this particular issue with her partner, I'd have to say that I can agree with where the OP is coming from on this one. The only compliments I get are sexual in nature, the only time I am touched is sexual in nature. If the only time you physically interact with me is when you have an erection then you can just bugger off...you need to see me as being more than just a 'hole for the pole'. We all deserve to be with a partner who thinks that we are valuable (both sexually and non) and deserving of kind touch and kind words (both sexually and non)...otherwise, I can totally see a whole lot of nonsex going on and it has nothing at all do with being a repressed stick in the mud. OP, you need to seek counseling for yourself as I'm reading a lot of resentment.
She's_NotInLove_w/Me Posted July 7, 2010 Posted July 7, 2010 AVS, the end of both of your last posts indicate to me serious self confidence / self esteem issues. An actress on TV gets your husband hot and bothered, come on now? Your husband does not relate to women for who they are, only sexually? Then the post prior to that one ends with you explaining how, from your point of view, he just saw you as a good fit for his needs... We all have reasons why we marry, but I can certainly assure you that your husband sees alot more in you than just Mom to his kids and someone who pursued him. You even questioned if he truly loved you. If my daughter were saying the above things a light would go off in my head that she needs to build up her own self esteem and self worth. I understand he is no angel, but honestly, you need to kick up your own personal self esteem (HOW DO YOU VIEW YOURSELF?), not just a notch, but rather a few notches. That is not easy, but it has great rewards for you as and individual, and potentially for the marriage also.
Author AVR1962 Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 once an addict, always an addict... is he still drinking? He will substitute one addiction with another... his brain is wired that way (now)... Maybe not the 12 pack a night but husband really has trouble with limitations and yes, still drinking.
Author AVR1962 Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 As someone who is currently working through this particular issue with her partner, I'd have to say that I can agree with where the OP is coming from on this one. The only compliments I get are sexual in nature, the only time I am touched is sexual in nature. If the only time you physically interact with me is when you have an erection then you can just bugger off...you need to see me as being more than just a 'hole for the pole'. We all deserve to be with a partner who thinks that we are valuable (both sexually and non) and deserving of kind touch and kind words (both sexually and non)...otherwise, I can totally see a whole lot of nonsex going on and it has nothing at all do with being a repressed stick in the mud. OP, you need to seek counseling for yourself as I'm reading a lot of resentment. Thanks for understanding, I know more are going thru the same. I have close friends that will talk and whenever sex with their husbands is mentioned with those who have been married long-term it does seem there is alot of conflict and hurt. I found this article that pretty much sums up what I have been saying: [COLOR=#000000]Marriages work when two people decide to work as a team, not so much when either one or the other sees him- or herself as superior and above the rules. Marriage works when both people defend their relationship and guard against dangers. One major danger is attraction to other people. Somewhere along the way, we seem to have forgotten that attraction to others is natural. Sexual attraction is not an aberration, but a natural part of existence. So the task is not to pretend there is no attraction to another person, but to guard against that attraction threatening the marriage! Because we have forgotten this fact of attraction, we think that the attraction to another person is somehow 1) proof we should be with someone else, and 2) proof that there is something wrong with our marriage. Neither are true, but both beliefs can destroy a marriage. Saving a marriage often starts by keeping a marriage out of trouble. Watch Tiger Woods and Jonathan Edwards. Now, when the problem is deep, both are doing backflips to save their marriages -- but the real issue is stopping the POTENTIAL for problems. Guard your marriage. Guard your relationship. And remember the humility of realizing that nobody is above the rules. Marriage is about vigilance from outside dangers as much as the connection and love inside the relationship. [/COLOR]
Author AVR1962 Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 AVS, the end of both of your last posts indicate to me serious self confidence / self esteem issues. An actress on TV gets your husband hot and bothered, come on now? Your husband does not relate to women for who they are, only sexually? Then the post prior to that one ends with you explaining how, from your point of view, he just saw you as a good fit for his needs... We all have reasons why we marry, but I can certainly assure you that your husband sees alot more in you than just Mom to his kids and someone who pursued him. You even questioned if he truly loved you. I hate to burts your bubble on this one but we went to counseling over his lusting over actresses, SERIOUSLY! And yes, he does get hot and bothered over them, he admitted in counseling. And yes, I think I did fill a peg for him as a mom to his sons. He is EXTREMELY DETACHED!
Author AVR1962 Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 And unfortunately I am one of those "people pleasing" types how will go the extra mile and bend over backwards to help a friend in need. All too many times in my life I have attracted abusers and users because of this. I have tried very hard to hold my ground and not get involved but it takes me sometimes getting a lot touigher than I am comfortable with and then I feel guilty because I fear I have hurt someone. I get stronger with time and the more I have to deal with issues but I am not fully there yet. I think my finally telling myself that I am DONE and I will no longer make the move to 'make' this relationship, fix it or go to him to please him is a step in the right direction for me.
JustJoe Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 OP, communication is give and take, not one party talking AT the other. You both have issues. . Maybe you should stop concentrating on his supposed faults real or imaginary, and try to look at his good qualities. Brow- beating him and expressing disgust haven't got you very far, have they?
Author AVR1962 Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 This sums it up very well, found this article which said almost word for word what I have been saying from the very beginning while dating. To the previous reply, yes we both have issues, everyone has issues. I am just trying to understand and I am trying to do so in a safe invirnoment and that's why I came here. I sugar-coat far too much and have for a very long time. Here's the article I mentioned: Emotionally Unavailable is a pseudo-psychological term often used to refer to a sexual partner who doesn’t want to commit to a relationship. The term is also used to refer to a symptom of Reactive Attachment Disorder in which a person with the disorder seems withdrawn from emotion and emotional attachment, usually to parents or other family members. An emotionally unavailable relationship occurs whenever one partner is unable to reach out and make a heart connection with another person, while the other partner feels it is somehow his/her fault and thus bears the responsibility to fix it by being perfect. I also read where it is more about control than love for the emotionally unavailable person. For them, emotions seem unsafe, while control is appealing. They will not open up to you about their emotions or how they feel about something. And, they generally don’t want to sit and listen to how you feel either. Basically, an emotionally unavailable person is someone who is not really committed. Being married to someone who will not commit themselves fully to the marriage, can be like living with a stranger. When this continues year after year, the relationship shrivels and eventually dies. A marriage is like a delicate flower needing constant attention and nutrients. Without those nutrients, we can exist, but not thrive. Also a marriage without emotional intimacy is no marriage at all.
JustJoe Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 So AVR, have you spent as much time checking out your own faults as you have trying to find things to blame him for? All you have done here is rant about what his problems are, are you blameless?
Toodamnpragmatic Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 So AVR, have you spent as much time checking out your own faults as you have trying to find things to blame him for? All you have done here is rant about what his problems are, are you blameless? Be careful what you wish for..... I read and shake my head wondering why she bothers based on all this crap she posts. Leave and find another destructive relationship, which you seem good at finding.
giotto Posted July 8, 2010 Posted July 8, 2010 Leave and find another destructive relationship, which you seem good at finding. sometimes I really wonder why these women stay with these losers... there's plenty of decent blokes out there... I can understand small issues, but when things are like AVR described, I just fail to comprehend the reasons...
Author AVR1962 Posted July 8, 2010 Author Posted July 8, 2010 What I realized from all the replies is that what I have been told by my husband IS NOT just a "man" thing, and yes, dooped yet again, no surprise......sometimes we beleive because we want to. I have no desire to get myself in yet another destructive relationship, that why I'm trying to figure out things now. I can see this is bigger than me and I think goes alot deeper (probably childhood) on both sides and that the only way forward is counseling whether husband is a part of it or not. Thank you to all those who replied, I appreciate the input!
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