She won't leave us alone.

[Billie]

Whilst I care about john and like him a lot I know that he will never leave his wife. He is an interim guy which is why I worry that jane is going to cause all of this to come crashing down. Ruining her marriage and family life as well as his.

 

I do not have anything to loose, only reputation but people all have their own agendas and will believe what they want anyway, so this does not bother me.

 

John knows why I want him and I know why he wants me, that is why it works so well and why I beleieve he is more honest with me than anyone. I think he likes being able to be honest with me knowing that I will nit judge him. The only trouble with this type if relationship is that it becomes addictive. I don't want to let him go, but his past us catching up with us and i fear it is gonna get very very mess before too long. Maybe if I left they could all return back to their 'normal' way of life. I would ofcourse then be on my own.

[Fieldsofgold]

I understand you are worried that your MM might be lying to you. Don't be blue eyed, but still:

 

I think it is much better to trust the person you love and be proved wrong, than to mistrust him/her and be proved wrong.

 

IMHO, trust is earned. That takes history and experience.

[Trimmer]

This sounds a bit like the situation my BF/unknown to me MM tried to do with me. Told his W that I was his "buddy," hid me from his OW of 10 years, once I found out, he tried desperately to convince me he only loves me, has dumped the OW, and is now living alone on his boat. (insert eye roll) I think some of these guys try to get by with as much as they can. When his W called me, she said there would be nothing he would like more than to have three women waiting for him.

That's what I'm thinking, too. Raise the spectre of jane "freaking out and doing something" to keep billie on the edge of fear (and excitement...) and working extra hard to keep things quiet, not raise any questions about jane, and basically to keep her under control. Meanwhile, he may very well still be with Jane, and this cover story would go a long way toward explaining why he still has to talk to Jane a lot, why she's always around, and this and that...

[Trimmer]

Whilst I care about john and like him a lot I know that he will never leave his wife. He is an interim guy which is why I worry that jane is going to cause all of this to come crashing down. Ruining her marriage and family life as well as his.

I still don't get why she would have any motivation to do that. There's NOTHING she could gain from it, and EVERYTHING to lose. Realistically, even if she's a little nuts, what would drive her even the tiniest bit towards doing that?

 

John knows why I want him and I know why he wants me, that is why it works so well and why I beleieve he is more honest with me than anyone.

I mean this as a way to try to open your eyes, but given that you are apparently #20 in a long line, don't you think that's likely what a lot of the previous women thought, too?

 

I think he likes being able to be honest with me knowing that I will nit judge him. The only trouble with this type if relationship is that it becomes addictive. I don't want to let him go, but his past us catching up with us and i fear it is gonna get very very mess before too long.

... which is why he needs a tool to help control you by keeping you in a state of fear.

 

Maybe if I left they could all return back to their 'normal' way of life. I would ofcourse then be on my own.

You don't need to rely on anything from "them" to do that. You just need to choose it. This is one part - perhaps the only part - of the scenario that is completely under your control.

[lolapalooza]

I really don't think he is seeing someone else or continuing to have an affair with jane, if I found out otherwise I would walk away.

Uh, he is seeing someone else... HIS WIFE!! That kind of OW mentality cracks me up. It's ok for MM to cheat on his wife, but HOW DARE THEY cheat on the OW!!

[jennie-jennie]

Whilst I care about john and like him a lot I know that he will never leave his wife. He is an interim guy which is why I worry that jane is going to cause all of this to come crashing down. Ruining her marriage and family life as well as his.

 

I do not have anything to loose, only reputation but people all have their own agendas and will believe what they want anyway, so this does not bother me.

 

John knows why I want him and I know why he wants me, that is why it works so well and why I beleieve he is more honest with me than anyone. I think he likes being able to be honest with me knowing that I will nit judge him. The only trouble with this type if relationship is that it becomes addictive. I don't want to let him go, but his past us catching up with us and i fear it is gonna get very very mess before too long. Maybe if I left they could all return back to their 'normal' way of life. I would ofcourse then be on my own.

 

I don't know how altruistic you are, but I would never leave a relationship as "addictive" as that, if it were not because I myself wanted to avoid the upcoming mess.

 

Perhaps it would even be refreshing for all parties if the truth came out in the open. There seem to be secrets hidden both here and there in these two marriages.

 

Take care though so you don't suddenly find yourself too deeply emotionally involved so that this interim relationship does not turn into something that you wish to be a permanent fixture in your life. With your MM's past of 20ish extramarital relationships, he doesn't seem like a man you want to build a future with.

[jennie-jennie]

Uh, he is seeing someone else... HIS WIFE!! That kind of OW mentality cracks me up. It's ok for MM to cheat on his wife, but HOW DARE THEY cheat on the OW!!

 

And when you were an OW , didn't you feel exactly like that?

 

It just goes to show how little competitive ability the OW assigns to the marriage.

[SidLyon]

And when you were an OW , didn't you feel exactly like that?

 

It just goes to show how little competitive ability the OW assigns to the marriage.

 

 

I disagree. You are twisting Billie's words.

 

Generally it's more that the OW recognizes that the BW comes first in any "competition". But as Billie said in one of her earlier posts she also wants to be placed above all the other OW.

[jennie-jennie]

Why is that? I mean one is his wife and the other is just a little extra on the side...not even anyone they'd give up their "real" life for. I'm not being flip. I'm genuinely curious about that. Is it that the OW sometimes has such a big ego that they think the wife really is "no competition?" I'm sorry but I can't understand that. And just for full disclosure, I've never been a BS or OW so I'm trying to get the psychology. Makes no sense to me.

 

The two women generally meet different needs. That is why the MM wants to keep them both. The wife provides a sense of family, and the other woman the whole spectra of emotions. They don't compete.

 

If on the other hand the MM has an OOW, then these two OW serve the same purpose and thus compete.

[jennie-jennie]

I have no idea at all why something that happened to me a long time ago for a short period of time fascinates you so, but no, I don't recall feeling that way at all.

 

I agree that most MM wants to keep them both. I do not agree that they don't compete.

 

Wasn't there a nasty blog floating around about being proud of doing it in the marital bed? If that's not competing, I don't know what is.

 

Nah, I would say that is taking over territory, intruding even on the the wive's domains of sense of family.

 

That short period of time that happened to you long ago is what brought you here.

I was in an A for 3 years with a MM.

 

Hmm, not that short either.

Edited July 5, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[lolapalooza]

Hmm, not that short either.

Digging up posts from the past always did seem very tacky to me.

Really??

 

And this helps the OP in what way?

[tami-chan]

Jane wanted to leave as she was so upset to see john moving on but she couldn't bring herself to do it. Jane and her husband and john and his wife have all been close friends for years, they even holiday together. If she left the business she would have to explain her reasons to not only her husband but also to johns wife. As they are all so close, leaving work wouldn't be enough, they would have to stop socialising too And this again would require an explanation.

 

She did eventually tell her husband that the reason she is do upset is because she has found out that john is having an affair and she can't believe he souls do that to 'her best friend' (johns wife) what she hasn't told her husband is the real reason she is upset is because she had an affair with john and is still in live with him.

 

I hope this makes sense!

 

Thanks again all for your input!

 

Of course , this makes sense! I don't understand why some people don't get it-what's her motivation? what can she gain it? etc.etc. The xMOW has it on her mind that SHE should only be the OW and that if MM has to cheat it should only be with her since she is the "true love" of his life and that if not for them being married to other people they would have surely married each other and would have been very happy !

 

This happened to my exH. He cheated with a married woman, then dumped her. He then found another OW, this time a single woman....ahm...exMOW acted like she was the wife and confronted the new OW, and called me! She told me how she and my exH were together and now he is with this other woman and that at least, she understood that my exH never wanted to leave me but who knows what this other woman wants! My response? "Do not ever call me again, I do not care". Looking back now, it was pretty funny!

[Trimmer]

Of course , this makes sense! I don't understand why some people don't get it-what's her motivation? what can she gain it? etc.etc. The xMOW has it on her mind that SHE should only be the OW and that if MM has to cheat it should only be with her since she is the "true love" of his life and that if not for them being married to other people they would have surely married each other and would have been very happy !

Oh, I completely get why Jane would feel that way. What I don't get is that the story seems to be that Jane has a great deal to lose: potentially her job and an (on-the-surface) stable marriage. As she weighs the potential consequences of "outing" Billie and John's affair, doesn't it seem clear that there's a significant risk of her own affair being revealed in the process, possibly destroying her own job and marriage?

[norajane]

Whilst I care about john and like him a lot I know that he will never leave his wife. He is an interim guy which is why I worry that jane is going to cause all of this to come crashing down. Ruining her marriage and family life as well as his.

 

I do not have anything to loose, only reputation but people all have their own agendas and will believe what they want anyway, so this does not bother me.

 

You have a job to lose, don't you? And, since this guy is a serial cheater and cheats at work, I'm guessing most everyone in that office knows how he operates, and is already quite well aware that you are his current OW. Jane certainly knows, has told her H about it, and has probably spread it from here to the rest of the offices in the building. Your professional reputation is likely already shot.

 

Do you really not need either your job or your reputation (to get another job)? Who will provide you with a reference when they know you're having an affair?

 

The only trouble with this type if relationship is that it becomes addictive. I don't want to let him go, but his past us catching up with us and i fear it is gonna get very very mess before too long.

 

It's already a mess, so much so that you are seeking advice here. It is disrupting both your work life and your private time - you wouldn't be wasting time posting about this if it weren't in your thoughts and you weren't anxious about it.

 

And his concern for Jane is causing him to avoid seeing you or even calling you so as not to upset her. How would she even know when he was calling you? Something feels very wrong, and much of it lies at his door...he's lying to you. About something.

 

What does this John offer you that is so compelling that you are willing to risk your job, your reputation, and your peace of mind?

[Fieldsofgold]

You have a job to lose, don't you? And, since this guy is a serial cheater and cheats at work, I'm guessing most everyone in that office knows how he operates, and is already quite well aware that you are his current OW. Jane certainly knows, has told her H about it, and has probably spread it from here to the rest of the offices in the building. Your professional reputation is likely already shot.

 

Do you really not need either your job or your reputation (to get another job)? Who will provide you with a reference when they know you're having an affair?

 

 

 

It's already a mess, so much so that you are seeking advice here. It is disrupting both your work life and your private time - you wouldn't be wasting time posting about this if it weren't in your thoughts and you weren't anxious about it.

 

And his concern for Jane is causing him to avoid seeing you or even calling you so as not to upset her. How would she even know when he was calling you? Something feels very wrong, and much of it lies at his door...he's lying to you. About something.

 

What does this John offer you that is so compelling that you are willing to risk your job, your reputation, and your peace of mind?

 

the bolded part - exactly how xBF/MM was with me and OW. I think he IS lying to you, making excuses to avoid you, to keep OW happy - and not because he's "afraid she'll tell, either.

 

I am concerned that you are in deeper, emotionally, than you think. Please be careful.

[tami-chan]

Oh, I completely get why Jane would feel that way. What I don't get is that the story seems to be that Jane has a great deal to lose: potentially her job and an (on-the-surface) stable marriage. As she weighs the potential consequences of "outing" Billie and John's affair, doesn't it seem clear that there's a significant risk of her own affair being revealed in the process, possibly destroying her own job and marriage?

 

 

You are thinking LOGICALLY, this Jane is driven by emotions, thus she is "dangerous"....

[Fieldsofgold]

Why is that? I mean one is his wife and the other is just a little extra on the side...not even anyone they'd give up their "real" life for. I'm not being flip. I'm genuinely curious about that. Is it that the OW sometimes has such a big ego that they think the wife really is "no competition?" I'm sorry but I can't understand that. And just for full disclosure, I've never been a BS or OW so I'm trying to get the psychology. Makes no sense to me.

 

I think there are several things that affect the OW's view of the wife. For most, I think somewhere deep down inside, they know they can't really compete with the Wife anyway, that typically is an exercise in futility, so they just discount that, and focus on competing with the OOW, because that's a level playing field, so to speak.

 

Also, a lot of OW buy into the stories the WS feeds them about the Wife being cold and totally non-sexual - they only had sex three times during their 30 year marriage - that produced 12 kids, right? Even another post on this topic refers to the W providing the sense of family, while the OW provides the passion. The WS is successful in carrying on an A to the extent that he is able to make the AP feel special, important, and needed. When an OW actually believes these stories, it is easy to feel that the W is not a threat. Of course, who knows what the truth really is, but this is what the WS feeds the OW, and if she believes it, then there is no reason to think the W is competition.

 

For the past several months, my xBF/MM has been making a career out of trying to convince me of these very things about both his W, and his OW. According to him, they are the most frigid, uncaring, dull women alive. Because I know his history as a skilled liar, I do not believe him for one minute. For the record, both his W and OW have called me, and both assure me they constantly have hot monkey sex with him. The OW even tried to enlist the W to help get rid of me! A totally unnecessary maneuver, as I would not have him now under any conditions. Nonetheless, an interesting dynamic to observe . . .

 

Saying all that to maybe explain the lengths an xOW will go to, to "compete with the new OW, while leaving the W unscathed.

 

In this particular case, given this man's prolific history, he doesn't sound like the kind of guy who can turn any Tu$hy away, so I'm betting that if Jane wants him, Jane is getting him.

 

I am concerned that he is using Jane as an excuse to avoid you. Because this guy probably doesn't have great conflict resolution skills.

[sadintexas]

It sounds as if John is using Jane as a scapegoat in the same way most MM use their wives as the same.

 

If he can handle his W while pulling off 20+ affairs, I doubt Jane is as much of a threat as he'd like you to believe. As he is a prolific liar, I'd hedge my bets that he's manipulating this situation.

 

Regardless, you don't say that you're in love with this man and you don't have any expectations of being with him long term. Keeping with that spirit, I'd have to say to accept Jane and her behavior and the even more limited time you will get with John (as opposed to OW who are only dealing with the W and not 1 or more OOW). You're getting what you want out of this right? Don't worry about his W or Jane or anything else in his life. To do so would be fruitless and would darken the enjoyment you get out of this.

 

Maybe some of this extra free time will allow you to do some things that might enable you to meet a nice single guy.

[jennie-jennie]

Really??

 

And this helps the OP in what way?

 

Knowing background information about the poster's position in the love triangle (whether WS, BS or OW/OM) and the extent of experience in being in that position is something I find helpful.

[jennie-jennie]

Ok, not your blog. But why is my response interesting? Yes, intrusion on another woman's territory. Exactly. So why isn't disgust an appropriate reaction to an "intrusion" in your view? I find your response to my response interesting.

 

What I am trying to say is that an OW having sex in the marital bed is more about intrusion on another woman's territory than competition. Do you agree with me on that?

[jennie-jennie]

I think there are several things that affect the OW's view of the wife. For most, I think somewhere deep down inside, they know they can't really compete with the Wife anyway, that typically is an exercise in futility, so they just discount that, and focus on competing with the OOW, because that's a level playing field, so to speak.

 

Also, a lot of OW buy into the stories the WS feeds them about the Wife being cold and totally non-sexual - they only had sex three times during their 30 year marriage - that produced 12 kids, right? Even another post on this topic refers to the W providing the sense of family, while the OW provides the passion. The WS is successful in carrying on an A to the extent that he is able to make the AP feel special, important, and needed. When an OW actually believes these stories, it is easy to feel that the W is not a threat. Of course, who knows what the truth really is, but this is what the WS feeds the OW, and if she believes it, then there is no reason to think the W is competition.

 

For the past several months, my xBF/MM has been making a career out of trying to convince me of these very things about both his W, and his OW. According to him, they are the most frigid, uncaring, dull women alive. Because I know his history as a skilled liar, I do not believe him for one minute. For the record, both his W and OW have called me, and both assure me they constantly have hot monkey sex with him. The OW even tried to enlist the W to help get rid of me! A totally unnecessary maneuver, as I would not have him now under any conditions. Nonetheless, an interesting dynamic to observe . . .

 

Saying all that to maybe explain the lengths an xOW will go to, to "compete with the new OW, while leaving the W unscathed.

 

In this particular case, given this man's prolific history, he doesn't sound like the kind of guy who can turn any Tu$hy away, so I'm betting that if Jane wants him, Jane is getting him.

 

I am concerned that he is using Jane as an excuse to avoid you. Because this guy probably doesn't have great conflict resolution skills.

 

Whilst both MM and I were having sex with our spouse/SO for a long time parallel to the extramarital sex, I think you need to realize that, at least in a case like ours, the marital sex diminishes in importance and the extramarital sex increases in importance as time goes on.

 

More and more of the emotional connection between the spouses/SOs is moved to the extramarital relationship. Seeing this process occur makes the participants in the extramarital relationship certain they are each other's significant love interest and that the spouse/SO is neither a threat nor a competition to their relationship.

 

I know this was a concern of my MM in the beginning. He even had nightmares where he was racing against my SO, trying to win the heat. Once he realized he had already won over my SO, he was not concerned any more whether I had sex with my SO or not. Having a new man enter however, brought about this competitive feeling once again.

[whichwayisup]

Good point, though I think even he is worn out after dealing with 3 women!! I don't expect john and I to last, I just get frustrated with the situation, I wouldn't mind if it was his wife, but it's not. Thank you both for your input.

 

Don't feel sorry for him, he's created this mess by living this cheating lifestyle.

 

Please, get yourself checked for STD's! He's a serial cheater and been with tons of women!

 

Detach and try to let go of this guy, he's not worth it and one day he is going to turn to someone new, that someone who gives him an exciting new rush and you'll be in Jane's shoes, hurting and jealous.

[whichwayisup]

I want to believe him but am torn as after all he lies to everyone else why should I think that he doesn't lie to me.

 

You know you aren't his first affair let alone his last...This guy is good and has everybody on a string! It's good you are thinking this way, fact is, he IS a selfish liar, a manipulator and puts himself first. Remember that! Always.

[tami-chan]

Hi Billie!

 

I think you should take Jane to the side and talk to her. Tell her, you do not want her interfering with your relationship with John if she wants to keep her marriage and her friendship with John's wife, otherwise, you are going to have a talk with her husband and John's wife. You see, you are not vested in a way that you see the "future" with him and can afford to drop him. Give her the choice.

 

Ok,maybe that is not you. I wouldn't do this either. But you know if this is too much trouble I would not waste any more time trying to deal with a ticking time bomb who is not even the wife!

[bittersweet memories]

To a degree yes, I agree. But there's absolutely, to my mind, a psychological component of competition in the case of the OW having sex in the marital bed. But what does it matter how you want to label it? It's still disgusting and warrants using the icon. I stand by my "interesting" reaction.

 

It is disgusting..