Men and women

[aerogurl87]

I know that some guys don't watch porn and all that stuff when in a serious relationship. I've seen it. It's not something that's really common but some men are like that.

 

As for the looking at naked pictures with friends, a lot of guys do that. At my last job, the other guys at my work would be showing each other porn and stuff all of the time. I always thought it was weird and didn't relate.

 

To me, porn has always served a purpose, so why would I watch porn with friends just for the entertainment value? Just like when other guys comment on whether a chick looks hot or not to me or ask me if I think she's hot. I always feel weird in that situation.

 

It's probably that I am an introvert and more of an old-fashioned type guy and I don't talk about those types of things with other people.

 

Your right it is rare, but if the OP finds that it really bothers her (for me if my boyfriend watched porn every once and awhile it wouldn't completely bother me as long as it didn't interfere with our sex life) she should talk to him about it. If she finds she can't live with it, she should find someone with similar views on sex as herself.

 

And no to me porn is not a spectator sport. It's not like saying "let's look at this replay from last night's soccer match". It's something that should be done in private by yourself.

[Shucksaw]

I've been watching this thread, and right here, is where I can tell that you are a smart woman, and I really hope your boyfriend stays on his toes...

 

Loaded question much? And moreso to serve YOUR general purpose.

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You wouldn't be able to win with an answer either way.

Oh Diezel!

It is not a matter of wining and losing.

 

What do you think my ‘general purpose’ is?

And what do you mean by ‘general purpose’ anyway?

I am not here to change the world. I am here to ask for help with my issue, with something that bothers me.

I have no secret agenda.

 

I am dealing with my own issue and I am asking questions in my attempt to put my issue and my thinking into the context of the real world.

 

If my reality check tells me that a great majority of other people think and feel different, I might need to re-evaluate my own thinking. I may or may not be able to change myself. I may decide to accept a certain amount of sadness and try to make the best of my life (as Ruby did).

I may decide to somehow reduce a level of devotion to my SO to make it more in sync with his.

I don’t know. I am in a ‘research’ phase still.

 

If someone answers NO: Ohhh, you see, people DO see the world as I see it. You CAN just find ONE single person attractive in this world and ignore all others, so I must be right.

What would be so wrong about this?

What is wrong about trying to find someone who has similar feelings on something that is important to you?

[A O]

I've actually done this, back when my dad hadn't quite figured out how to avoid downloading viruses that set your homepage to sexyteensandtheirmoms dot com or whatever the ef it was and bombarded you with pop-ups whenever you opened up IE. Not to mention never clearing the browsing history and accidentally saving videos to the desktop.

So, daddy got his daughter to fix his porn-infested computer. Can’t say that’s the brightest thing to do, especially if he knew anything about his daughter.

 

I'm talking about mainstream American society, and it doesn't matter at all who encourages women most. Why would it? Women encourage women in certain ways, and men encourage women in other ways. What's your point? Why would it matter if men do it more or women do it more? It still happens, and it still causes a lot of problems

It matters, and it matters because this is a problem to you, and others here, and there's a clear implication that men are a driver, perhaps, thee driver in this problem. Therefore it’s fair to question just how big a role men play in all this, and to put that role in context with whatever other drivers are involved in all this. Not to mention that to solve a problem, you have to know what factors underpin it.

 

Only a fraction of rapes are reported (93,934 reported in 2005, FBI estimates that 37% are reported), and out of those, only a fraction result in pressed charges and a guilty conviction.

Point is - if women are only seen as sex objects, whose feelings aren't worth considering at that, as has been mooted, then rape would be part and parcel of everyday life for everyone. Clearly this isn't the case.

 

When I am in a loving, committed relationship, I don't care one bit what other men think of me.

 

Your viewpoint doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter because the OP and one (or two) others are only interested in what male behavior means to them. Therefore, to use their logic (and behavior) back at them, any women who enhances their natural appearance, attempts to look as attractive as practical, while not in the company of her man, is exhibiting the same behavior that they accuse men of doing. Naturally, if I was talking to you outside of this thread or outside of the basic premise of this thread – I’d take your point, but that is not the situation we find ourselves in here.

 

 

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[A O]

I was hoping I could avoid pointless accusations…. Oh well, here it goes…

There’s nothing pointless about questioning your “stumbling” ability, even moreso giving the rather rudimentary nature of what you were supposedly fixing. Backing up a computer for instance, one doesn’t need to know anything specific about what should to be backed up, unless told so beforehand. Otherwise, one backs everything up – no questions asked. Easy process - set and forget.

 

Even if I never found anything like this on my dad’s computer, the issue would still exist right?

Calling it an issue is subjective.

 

Porn is only part of my problem and I could even accept it under certain circumstances. I don’t want this to become a porn thread – I have no moral issues with porn,

It is a porn thread and you do have moral issues with it as evidenced by your reaction to daddy’s apparent stash.

 

 

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[Shucksaw]

So, daddy got his daughter to fix his porn-infested computer. Can’t say that’s the brightest thing to do, especially if he knew anything about his daughter.

The most common and well-known version of the ad hominem fallacy is just a simple insult, and is called the abusive ad hominem. It occurs whenever a person has given up attempting to persuade a person or an audience about the reasonable of a position and is now resorting to mere personal attacks.

 

It matters, and it matters because this is a problem to you, and others here, and there's a clear implication that men are a driver, perhaps, thee driver in this problem. Therefore it’s fair to question just how big a role men play in all this, and to put that role in context with whatever other drivers are involved in all this. Not to mention that to solve a problem, you have to know what factors underpin it.

 

Point is - if women are only seen as sex objects, whose feelings aren't worth considering at that, as has been mooted, then rape would be part and parcel of everyday life for everyone. Clearly this isn't the case.

This is a clear attempt to turn this thread into a gender war.

This is not the intent of this thread.

I appeal to everyone who has posted and everyone who will post in this thread – PLEASE DO NOT LET IT HAPPEN.

 

Originally Posted by Ruby Slippers

When I am in a loving, committed relationship, I don't care one bit what other men think of me.

Your viewpoint doesn’t matter.

It matters to me.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Shucksaw

[A O]

Besides, can you please explain to me how you actually STOP being attractive when not in the company of your SO?

Its not about stopping, its all about why? Why do you need to do so? When the same argument is used against men - why do they need to look at women other than their SO - then the same argument can be used back at you - why do you need to look attractive for people other than your SO?

 

And how is that different for what men do? Men are not immune to fashion. Not so much make up, but hair products for example? Not to mention all those treatments for boldness.

And women aren’t immune to porn, nor looking at other men, but we both know who does what and who uses what the most. To try and write of a viewpoint simply because some people do it, well, you have more to lose than I do if you really want to head down this path.

 

AO, I certainly hope there is a distinction. Are you saying you don’t see any?

Tell me why it’s unnatural to look at women on a computer and yet its natural to be turned on by a woman’s body. What is the distinction? And how does this distinction, differ, from women who are influenced by other women via magazines, TV or the computer also.

 

You can’t possibly objectify yourself! That is an oxymoron.

Objectifying is the underlying cause of the problem here. How we perceive this is the consequence and your main problem overall here. So, whether it be men objectifying women (mainly though porn) or women objectifying themselves (through enhancing their appearance and shape via make-up and clothing for example) – the consequence is still the same, when using your logic. You have a problem with men needing to look at more than just their woman. Flip your logic around and it becomes men having a problem with women needing to look attractive to those other than him. So, overall point is, if you have a problem with male behavior - so be it. But male behavior differs little from female behavior.

 

 

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[A O]

The most common and well-known version of the ad hominem fallacy is just a simple insult, and is called the abusive ad hominem. It occurs whenever a person has given up attempting to persuade a person or an audience about the reasonable of a position and is now resorting to mere personal attacks.

If you see this as attack then that says more about your ability to communicate than it does about anything untoward to do with me. Funnily enough, fallacies are often use as a form of defensive offence also. Painting themselves out to be a victim, and the other person as the aggressor often works a treat.

 

This is a clear attempt to turn this thread into a gender war.

This is not the intent of this thread.

It is gender based, without a shadow of a doubt, you've made sure of that, but it doesn't need to be a war, and simply expressing my opinion is neither attacking you nor going to war.

 

It matters to me.

Your logic dictates otherwise.

 

 

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[Shucksaw]

As I have already said, I DO NOT want to turn this into a gender war.

 

Facts are:

 

1. A person cannot stop being attractive at will, regardless of gender

 

2. You cannot possibly objectify yourself, simply because in your eyes you can never be an object – even thinking about it makes you more than that.

[Shucksaw]

Your logic dictates otherwise.

Can you explain that?

 

 

--

P.S.

I am more than happy to discuss your opinion.

 

I do not appreciate you telling me (and other posters) how we feel, what we consider important and how to do our backups! (btw, if you back up everything, you just end up with a lot of rubbish)

Edited July 4, 2010 by Shucksaw

[A O]

A person cannot stop being attractive at will, regardless of gender

And a person can't stop looking at another person regardless of gender. So again, if you wish to use this argument then you simply don't have an argument overall! But when you give it context, namely people looking at others for reasons other than someone being in their field of vision and the flipside to this, people enhancing their appearance over and above their natural state of being then things change pretty fast. And then when you add your logic into the mix - what men looking at women other than their significant other means to you then the flipside to your logic becomes - why do women need to look attractive, over and above their natural state, when not in the company of their SO?

 

You cannot possibly objectify yourself, simply because in your eyes you can never be an object – even thinking about it makes you more than that.

Oh yes you can and most women do so on a near daily basis. Makeup designed to accentuate the eyes, lips, cheeks is prime evidence of that, not to mention certain attire that can either emphasize or hide certain body parts, and showcase the body in general.

 

Can you explain that?

It doesn't matter what Ruby thinks because it doesn't matter what men think, to you. You're here to express your beliefs more than you are to debate the relative merits, or not, of them. Turn that around, and using your beliefs and logic then how Ruby sees her own behavior becomes as irrelevant to men as how men see their own behavior from your viewpoint.

 

I do not appreciate you telling me (and other posters) how we feel, what we consider important and how to do our backups! (btw, if you back up everything, you just end up with a lot of rubbish)

First off, take a look in the mirror. Guess what you're doing with how you see things and how you think we see things. Add in how other posters see men within the context of this situation and hey presto - this is not a case where you all get to say whatever you like while the men folk here are supposed to keep quiet. Next, there's no hard and fast rule to backing up a computer. But if you're doing one for someone else, then what constitutes rubbish is up to them, not you.

 

 

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[D-Lish]

Will the same thing happen to me? Will a guy just ‘settle’ for me just because he can’t get girls like that? And what when I get older?

 

Are all men like this?

 

Yes. The destiny you are speaking of is called trolling- and there is no cure.

[Shucksaw]

AO, I don’t have an argument

I have a question

 

I do claim though that putting make up on is not even close to masturbating to other people.

 

To me, it matters what Ruby thinks. To you it may not. And that is fine.

But you cannot claim that it does not matter to me. That doesn’t make sense.

 

And the most important question – I back up all computers in our house – my dad is happy with my making the decision about what the rubbish is.

[Shucksaw]

Yes. The destiny you are speaking of is called trolling- and there is no cure.

So in your opinion there is only a certain number of questions that can be asked on this forum. Only certain number of ‘approved’ issues people are allowed to have?

[D-Lish]

So in your opinion there is only a certain number of questions that can be asked on this forum. Only certain number of ‘approved’ issues people are allowed to have?

 

Yes, 12- That's the limit.

[Diezel]

Shucksaw, I have a question (#1 out of a possible 12):

 

How much do you charge people for passage underneath that bridge of yours?

[D-Lish]

Shucksaw, I have a question (#1 out of a possible 12):

 

How much do you charge people for passage underneath that bridge of yours?

 

It will cost you your essence brother, but you shall inherit a bundle of magic twigs on the other side.

[Shucksaw]

Shucksaw, I have a question (#1 out of a possible 12):

 

How much do you charge people for passage underneath that bridge of yours?

 

not much

just your soul

[Shucksaw]

I just wanted to say thank you to those who tried to help me. I appreciate your efforts, you did help and made me think. Thanks guys!

 

I will never understand why my question attracted so much hostility… but I guess people have their own issues and bitterness...

 

I will stop before I become as bitter as them.

[sweetjasmine]

So, daddy got his daughter to fix his porn-infested computer. Can’t say that’s the brightest thing to do, especially if he knew anything about his daughter.

 

He doesn't know how to fix it himself and he's certainly not ashamed of his hobby or whatever you want to call it. I never said anything to him about it. And, yes, there's a lot he doesn't get about me and about modern women in general. He was raised in another culture and generation, and that's led him to misunderstand me so profoundly sometimes that he's seriously insulted me. So, no, he probably wouldn't think I'd be bothered by it, anyway.

 

It matters, and it matters because this is a problem to you, and others here, and there's a clear implication that men are a driver, perhaps, thee driver in this problem.

 

No. You're adding that on yourself. I never claimed men are "thee driver" in this problem. It's more complicated than that. In fact, women probably put more pressure on other women to self-objectify. But if it were the other way around, it wouldn't make a difference because the effects would still remain.

 

You're not getting what I'm trying to say. You're assuming I'm framing all of this in that f-ing stupid "gender war" nonsense and trying to blame one gender for everything terrible that the other gender has to deal with. That's not it at all.

 

Therefore it’s fair to question just how big a role men play in all this, and to put that role in context with whatever other drivers are involved in all this. Not to mention that to solve a problem, you have to know what factors underpin it.

 

I'm more interested in looking at what role different groups play and how it all fits together. And let me put it this way -- do you know of any way to quantify the amount of pressure women feel from different sources to act a certain way or think a certain way?

 

Point is - if women are only seen as sex objects, whose feelings aren't worth considering at that, as has been mooted, then rape would be part and parcel of everyday life for everyone. Clearly this isn't the case.

 

That doesn't follow. Rape doesn't necessarily follow from viewing people as objects. There are a lot of other factors involved which won't automatically come into play for every person who views another as an object.

[A O]

I do claim though that putting make up on is not even close to masturbating to other people.

Now you've gone a step further down the food chain. Step one is how you think men view things. Step two is how you think men act. The opposite to your thinking now moves away from the simple act of women making themselves attractive to others through to feeling the need to actually do something about the attraction/desire that they generate. Point is, any view that you care to express about male behavior, in the context of this thread, has an equal and opposite female behavior too..

 

To me, it matters what Ruby thinks. To you it may not. And that is fine.

Its not me. Its your logic turned upside down. What matters to you most of all here is how you see things. The same behavior in reverse means that Ruby's view is inconsequential to those who wish to follow a similar thought process to you.

 

And the most important question – I back up all computers in our house – my dad is happy with my making the decision about what the rubbish is.

That's the mindset of a very inexperienced computer user. Your average user wouldn't leave such an important decision in the hands of someone else.

 

I will never understand why my question attracted so much hostility… but I guess people have their own issues and bitterness...I will stop before I become as bitter as them

A simple exchange in views does not constitute either bitterness or a bitter nature in my book. You speak of ad hominems and the like, not to mention a displeasure over how we, or I, think you feel, and yet you're quick to indulge in both yourself.

 

 

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[A O]

No. You're adding that on yourself. I never claimed men are "thee driver" in this problem.

Men are a driver. Whether they are thee driver or how big their role is, and what other influences are there and how big are they in encouraging objectification too - they are the questions I'm interested in getting answers to.

 

It's more complicated than that. In fact, women probably put more pressure on other women to self-objectify. But if it were the other way around, it wouldn't make a difference because the effects would still remain.

Yes it is more multi-layed than the 'it doesn't matter' type answer you gave me earlier.

 

You're not getting what I'm trying to say. You're assuming I'm framing all of this in that f-ing stupid "gender war" nonsense and trying to blame one gender for everything terrible that the other gender has to deal with. That's not it at all.

There is no gender war. Simply stating my opinion(s) on a topic that is gender based in nature. Any war you think their is, is not started by me. I don't care for it. Neither am I blaming anyone, I'm simply asking for context or pointing out the fact that there's a flip side to a lot of the beliefs floating around here.

 

I'm more interested in looking at what role different groups play and how it all fits together. And let me put it this way -- do you know of any way to quantify the amount of pressure women feel from different sources to act a certain way or think a certain way?

Agreed and this is what I'm trying to find out.

 

That doesn't follow. Rape doesn't necessarily follow from viewing people as objects. There are a lot of other factors involved which won't automatically come into play for every person who views another as an object.

Sexual Objectivity in its truest form is to view a person as being devoid of feelings and basic human respect . That is why I mention rape because under this definition rape will flourish. Otherwise, I get what you're saying.

 

 

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[Jersey Shortie]

I will never understand why my question attracted so much hostility… but I guess people have their own issues and bitterness...

 

I will stop before I become as bitter as them

 

Basically, because men want us to smile, accept and think they are the greatest things in the world even while they are oggling and thinking of other women. They want us to indulge their weaknesses so they don't have to be a stand-up kind of guy. It's easier to say "oh boys will be boys" and indulge lazy behaviors then be a man that stands up for what is right. It's hard to find those kind of men today.

 

The lack of consideration for anything female or female needs never fails to astound me. Most men care about themselves first. Asking them to excersize any type of self control or respect for their female partners is too hard a task for them.

[MrNate]

When I am in a loving, committed relationship, I don't care one bit what other men think of me.

 

 

The definition of obsession is "a persistent disturbing preoccupation with an often unreasonable idea or feeling"

 

There's nothing disturbing or unreasonable about nurturing the strong bond of a loving partnership. Quite the contrary -- it's healthy, stabilizing, good for your health, and beneficial in myriad ways.

 

I could engage in any number of activities destructive to the relationship and explain them away "because I'm a woman", but I don't do them because the power of a real connection trumps any of those meaningless diversions.

 

Ah, well now you're bringing definitions into it.

 

Obesession could also be defined as: "an unhealthy and compulsive preoccupation with something or someone."

 

 

 

So then we'd have to define 'unhealthy' and 'compulsive'. Or in your definition, can love be disturbing and unreasonable? You bet. But that's for another time.

 

It all depends.

 

I have a pretty good feeling my point isn't coming across to anyone, as my opinions are somehow being labeled as a personal attack. But hey, I doubt we'll come to an agreement, so we can leave this discussion at that.

Edited July 5, 2010 by MrNate

[MrNate]

Basically, because men want us to smile, accept and think they are the greatest things in the world even while they are oggling and thinking of other women. They want us to indulge their weaknesses so they don't have to be a stand-up kind of guy. It's easier to say "oh boys will be boys" and indulge lazy behaviors then be a man that stands up for what is right. It's hard to find those kind of men today.

 

The lack of consideration for anything female or female needs never fails to astound me. Most men care about themselves first. Asking them to excersize any type of self control or respect for their female partners is too hard a task for them.

 

*sigh*

[Engadget]

Basically, because men want us to smile, accept and think they are the greatest things in the world even while they are oggling and thinking of other women. They want us to indulge their weaknesses so they don't have to be a stand-up kind of guy. It's easier to say "oh boys will be boys" and indulge lazy behaviors then be a man that stands up for what is right. It's hard to find those kind of men today.

 

The lack of consideration for anything female or female needs never fails to astound me. Most men care about themselves first. Asking them to excersize any type of self control or respect for their female partners is too hard a task for them.

You and Woggle sound like you should be married.