Taking the high road vs. low self esteem vs. Assertiveness

[Perhaps]

How do you figure out the right balance? Where do you draw the line between being vengeful and forgiving?

After numerous calls, I answered my ex and at that second, I had to make a choice - seize the opportunity and act cold and let her know she has no business trying to find out how I've been OR seize the opportunity to be a better person and forgive her. I ended up doing the latter and though I regret not telling her off, I think I'd have regretted it more if I'd told her off. Regardless, I did make it clear to her that I don't see friendship happening in the next few months.

 

Why do these exes do this? When YOU care about them, when your heart cries their name instead of beating every second, they walk all over you. But as soon as you decide to pick yourself up and dust yourself off, they call to "make sure you're okay" and "believe it or not", but they, by whatever twisted logic, "do care about you." Do these friggin' exes have a G-ex summit of their own where they discuss issues such as emotional torture, guilt-trip methods and other devious problems?

 

Regardless, how can I draw the line between being too nice and being bitter and jaded? I want to be in balance and I'm tired of fighting myself. I always take abuse and when I do get the opportunity, I let it slide, thinking a higher power is keeping tabs and would probably want me to be the best person I am. I do it just to show my own self that I am a nice and forgiving person, -- maybe subconsciously hoping that good karma will boomerang. I don't want to turn into a bitter old man but I don't want to be a doormat.

 

Oh, and while I have your attention, I might as well get your opinion:I understand that it is unhealthy to associate happiness with your partner because that makes you dependent. In my case, I met my now ex when I was a low point in my life so I subconsciously associated happiness with her. And though I understand it's wrong, it's like betting ALL your earnings -- it's wrong but if it works, it's much better than investing only a fraction of your earnings. As bad as it is, I think I would choose that crazy type of love all over again.

 

Thoughts?

[Perhaps]

Just don't answer.

 

LOL.

 

I saw your reponses in the other two threads and as I scrolled down in this one, I expected to see "NO CONTACT" in bold.

 

I was close.

[DenverBachelor]

Oh, and while I have your attention, I might as well get your opinion:I understand that it is unhealthy to associate happiness with your partner because that makes you dependent. In my case, I met my now ex when I was a low point in my life so I subconsciously associated happiness with her. And though I understand it's wrong, it's like betting ALL your earnings -- it's wrong but if it works, it's much better than investing only a fraction of your earnings. As bad as it is, I think I would choose that crazy type of love all over again.

 

Thoughts?

 

Depends where you are in your life. I've gotten in relationships during low and high times in my life. The low times were points when I was always more dependant on my ex. The high times I had bitches in the living room until 6 in the morning.

 

I think it is most important to recognize where you are in your life and why you're getting into a relationship with another woman. If you're off kilter personally, I don't think a relationship is going to stabilize you. You'll get the illusion that it does, but its like constantly trying to put out a small fire by splashing gasoline on it. Most of the time you'll just kill the flames but that one time you don't ...

[sedgwick]

The high times I had bitches in the living room until 6 in the morning.

 

Really? You REALLY think it's okay to refer to women as "bitches" in a public forum (or ever??)

[EricaH329]

I think it has to do with the type of person you want to become. After you've figured that out, you know what you are working towards, and the decisions you make (figuring out whether to take the high road, etc.) will become more obvious to you.

 

I applaud you for not lashing out or acting cold or dismissive. In this sort of situation, it really comes down to who you are as a person, regardless of what your ex may or may not have done to you. This is what sets the bar for your character. Way to go!

[carhill]

Regardless, how can I draw the line between being too nice and being bitter and jaded?

 

Been separated over a year (I think June 11 is what stbx put on the divorce papers) and my experiences have taught me that it's OK to listen briefly but don't invest any *caring* into the process. I listen to strangers all the time, am a bit interested (my natural personality) and then cut them off and move on, remembering little to nothing of the interaction. It's the moment rather than any continuing dynamic. Polite and friend*ly* but not being a friend.

 

In my case, stbx facilitates this by having a complete dearth of interest in my life and times, just like during the majority of our marriage. I like her consistency and being able to see it with clarity. It is who she is. Acceptance. Hope you find your acceptance

[Ronni_W]

For me, high self-esteem would direct you to choose whatever you believe will make you feel good or better about yourself, in any given moment. High self-esteem is also about self-loving and self-caring words and actions. Part of it, though, is to make your full commitment to your choice, and to not later regret the other option(s) that you did not choose.

 

So, where you're also regretting not acting cold -- that would suggest that maybe you were not clear enough about your own intentions and desires before you acted "nice". The fact that you had those two options in your mind is also indicating that you have not yet truly and genuinely forgiven her. If you had, acting cold towards her would not have been a serious option, nor would not doing it have caused any feelings of regret.

 

If it helps any, you could look at 'forgiveness' as being an emotion and body-felt sensation much more than words and actions. That is, it happens internally first, and then it inspires words and actions that are expressed to the 'outer world'.

 

The thing about higher powers and the karma police -- I really believe that they know when we're doing stuff just to score karma points, and so it doesn't count as we might hope it would. What they're looking for is for us to actually embody "kindness", "forgiveness", "acceptance", etc.; for us to be those things and not just act out those things.

Because. Just like the rest of us, the higher powers and karma police do not appreciate insincerity or strictly self-interested agendas; we don't reward it (when we know about it) and neither do they (and they always know about it.)

 

It also means being kind to, and accepting and forgiving of, your own Self, including the thoughts, words and actions that you take on your own behalf as well as how you allow others to treat and talk about you. Not to use harsh words or tactics with yourself or them, but to set them and yourself straight, kindly and lovingly. The karma police are looking for kind, loving words and actions that are performed consistently and persistently. They don't get too excited or impressed when we dump on ourselves or allow others to do that -- cos it just is not kind or loving.

 

Acceptance would be, "Okay, yeah...sometimes I still feel pissed off and vengeful," (rather than judging and resisting those feelings as "bad" or "negative"), and then taking self-loving action to work through and eliminate those feelings (and all other feelings that cause you to not feel great about yourself.) Depending on how you work with your personal higher power and karma police, you could ask for their guidance and assistance as to how to deal with your pissed-off and vengeful feelings, when they arise. And with anything else that you're struggling with, of course.

 

Now, if it turns out that you more use concepts of higher powers and karma police to not be assertive, stand up and speak out for your own better treatment and self-feelings...well, they're gonna know that, too. And in which case, you may as well just start standing up and speaking out for yourself, cos you wouldn't be scoring high-quality or quantity karma points doing what you have been doing, anyway.

 

(ALL the above in keeping with my own philosophy/belief system, needless to add.)

 

I understand that it is unhealthy to associate happiness with your partner because that makes you dependent.

Well...maybe you could start thinking in terms of associating SOME of your happiness with a partner, SOME with your friends, SOME with family, SOME with your Self, SOME with your work and hobbies, and SOME with your higher power(s).

 

We are social creatures, and we do take inspiration and find comfort when we receive and give love, understanding, acceptance, admiration, respect, etc. The unhealthiness/dysfunction is more when you make one other person, or a group of other people, responsible for your happiness. That's when you end up needy and clingy, and feeling all hurt and victimized when they don't think, do or say whatever you want, whenever you want.

 

Sorry for the long post - feels like I've been typing forever!

 

Hugs, and best.

Edited June 27, 2010 by Ronni_W

[steveshopeful]

How do you figure out the right balance? Where do you draw the line between being vengeful and forgiving?

After numerous calls, I answered my ex and at that second, I had to make a choice - seize the opportunity and act cold and let her know she has no business trying to find out how I've been OR seize the opportunity to be a better person and forgive her. I ended up doing the latter and though I regret not telling her off, I think I'd have regretted it more if I'd told her off. Regardless, I did make it clear to her that I don't see friendship happening in the next few months.

 

Why do these exes do this? When YOU care about them, when your heart cries their name instead of beating every second, they walk all over you. But as soon as you decide to pick yourself up and dust yourself off, they call to "make sure you're okay" and "believe it or not", but they, by whatever twisted logic, "do care about you." Do these friggin' exes have a G-ex summit of their own where they discuss issues such as emotional torture, guilt-trip methods and other devious problems?

 

Regardless, how can I draw the line between being too nice and being bitter and jaded? I want to be in balance and I'm tired of fighting myself. I always take abuse and when I do get the opportunity, I let it slide, thinking a higher power is keeping tabs and would probably want me to be the best person I am. I do it just to show my own self that I am a nice and forgiving person, -- maybe subconsciously hoping that good karma will boomerang. I don't want to turn into a bitter old man but I don't want to be a doormat.

 

Oh, and while I have your attention, I might as well get your opinion:I understand that it is unhealthy to associate happiness with your partner because that makes you dependent. In my case, I met my now ex when I was a low point in my life so I subconsciously associated happiness with her. And though I understand it's wrong, it's like betting ALL your earnings -- it's wrong but if it works, it's much better than investing only a fraction of your earnings. As bad as it is, I think I would choose that crazy type of love all over again.

 

Thoughts?

 

Perhaps

 

You and I seem to be in similar situations, except that I am not at the point where I could be cold. I am still in the wuss stage where I blame myself and if she called to say jump, I might say how high? I also got into this at a low point and vested all my happiness into the relationship. I want to be strong and build my self esteem and stop blaming myself and thinking it might still work. I was doing great with NC until 2 days ago when I broke down and now she is not responding when in the beginning she was calling me multiple times a day........I don't know what to feel or what to do. All I know is when I think about her, I get this wave of emotion that passes thru my body and it is almost palpable. It is an uncomfortable feeling.........

[Perhaps]

For me, high self-esteem would direct you to choose whatever you believe will make you feel good or better about yourself, in any given moment. High self-esteem is also about self-loving and self-caring words and actions. Part of it, though, is to make your full commitment to your choice, and to not later regret the other option(s) that you did not choose.

 

So, where you're also regretting not acting cold -- that would suggest that maybe you were not clear enough about your own intentions and desires before you acted "nice". The fact that you had those two options in your mind is also indicating that you have not yet truly and genuinely forgiven her. If you had, acting cold towards her would not have been a serious option, nor would not doing it have caused any feelings of regret.

 

If it helps any, you could look at 'forgiveness' as being an emotion and body-felt sensation much more than words and actions. That is, it happens internally first, and then it inspires words and actions that are expressed to the 'outer world'.

 

The thing about higher powers and the karma police -- I really believe that they know when we're doing stuff just to score karma points, and so it doesn't count as we might hope it would. What they're looking for is for us to actually embody "kindness", "forgiveness", "acceptance", etc.; for us to be those things and not just act out those things.

Because. Just like the rest of us, the higher powers and karma police do not appreciate insincerity or strictly self-interested agendas; we don't reward it (when we know about it) and neither do they (and they always know about it.)

 

It also means being kind to, and accepting and forgiving of, your own Self, including the thoughts, words and actions that you take on your own behalf as well as how you allow others to treat and talk about you. Not to use harsh words or tactics with yourself or them, but to set them and yourself straight, kindly and lovingly. The karma police are looking for kind, loving words and actions that are performed consistently and persistently. They don't get too excited or impressed when we dump on ourselves or allow others to do that -- cos it just is not kind or loving.

 

Acceptance would be, "Okay, yeah...sometimes I still feel pissed off and vengeful," (rather than judging and resisting those feelings as "bad" or "negative"), and then taking self-loving action to work through and eliminate those feelings (and all other feelings that cause you to not feel great about yourself.) Depending on how you work with your personal higher power and karma police, you could ask for their guidance and assistance as to how to deal with your pissed-off and vengeful feelings, when they arise. And with anything else that you're struggling with, of course.

 

Now, if it turns out that you more use concepts of higher powers and karma police to not be assertive, stand up and speak out for your own better treatment and self-feelings...well, they're gonna know that, too. And in which case, you may as well just start standing up and speaking out for yourself, cos you wouldn't be scoring high-quality or quantity karma points doing what you have been doing, anyway.

 

(ALL the above in keeping with my own philosophy/belief system, needless to add.)

 

 

Well...maybe you could start thinking in terms of associating SOME of your happiness with a partner, SOME with your friends, SOME with family, SOME with your Self, SOME with your work and hobbies, and SOME with your higher power(s).

 

We are social creatures, and we do take inspiration and find comfort when we receive and give love, understanding, acceptance, admiration, respect, etc. The unhealthiness/dysfunction is more when you make one other person, or a group of other people, responsible for your happiness. That's when you end up needy and clingy, and feeling all hurt and victimized when they don't think, do or say whatever you want, whenever you want.

 

Sorry for the long post - feels like I've been typing forever!

 

Hugs, and best.

 

Wow. That was insightful on a whole new level! I followed every single word of what you said. And you're right, I haven't forgiven her yet but I still want her... if that makes sense. Some days, I'll say, "Self, you deserve better, dammit! She did this and that, blah blah blah" and other days, I say, ".. but I miss her *sad face*". So, it's clear I'm not over it completely. I do look forward to the day where I have completely forgiven her and am happily moving on with my life.

 

Secondly, it's interesting you point out that we get karma points when we sincerely act nice. As a kid, though you're told to be nice in general, you're also taught that if you do bad things, bad things happen to you, and if you do good, it will come back around as well. So, subconsciously, every good action is done with the points tally in mind... because if one day, something bad happens to you, you say to yourself, "I've been a good person.. I don't deserve this". What I'm trying to say is... it is really difficult to separate (for me, anyway) genuine generosity and self interested agendas. But as humans, we are naturally self interested beings most of the time, in my humble opinion. But yeah, you're right, it's something that I need to work on because I'm always conflicting myself.. trying to find the right balance between right and wrong. In the end, as you said, one is responsible for his/her own happiness, even if we need affection to be happy.

 

I appreciate your insight on this -- it was a very interesting read!

[Perhaps]

Perhaps

 

You and I seem to be in similar situations, except that I am not at the point where I could be cold. I am still in the wuss stage where I blame myself and if she called to say jump, I might say how high? I also got into this at a low point and vested all my happiness into the relationship. I want to be strong and build my self esteem and stop blaming myself and thinking it might still work. I was doing great with NC until 2 days ago when I broke down and now she is not responding when in the beginning she was calling me multiple times a day........I don't know what to feel or what to do. All I know is when I think about her, I get this wave of emotion that passes thru my body and it is almost palpable. It is an uncomfortable feeling.........

 

Trust me, I'm in the wuss stage as well. When I'm alone, I can work up the courage some days to realize how much I've went through but if I ever see/hear her voice, I go into the "how high?" mode.

 

And yeah, don't you hate it when they keep calling you when you turn your back but as soon as you give in, they pull back right quick. I'm sorry to hear but trust me, ignore her. As awful as it is, keep ignoring her. All that talk about "I may not love you, but I still care about you as a friend" is all bs. You gotta keep pushing through and I can gurantee you that it will erode over time. But during that time, make sure you work on some self discovery and really seize the opportunity to evolve as a person.

 

Good luck!

[DadofTwoGirls]

IMO...You should be both 'cold' and 'cool' to your betraying spouse..no sense in holding it in..let it rip..as for the statement "I had bitches in the living room until 6 in the morning." by DenverBachelor..that comes from the Snoop Doggy Dogg rap..Gin and Juice...

[Perhaps]

Don't make the mistake of thinking the mature, adult thing to do is to forgive everyone everything and be nice everybody. That's a crock.

 

If somebody dumps you, they have no right to expect friendship from you. No right whatsoever. If what you need is to resent them for the rest of your life for screwing you over, go ahead. If they call, tell them to get bent, leave you alone, and not call again. Believe me, they'll live.

 

I don't want to resent her. I think if you're truly over it, you are indifferent. She's tricky though, because she doesn't ask for friendship... she says, "Is it so bad if I want to see how you are doing once in a while?" Then, I start to feel bad. But I also know she's doing this because she has no one to bother. When we talked, I asked her why she doesn't take her problems to her boyfriend and she replied "You know me; me and boys never get along" in a sad, sorry way. The other night, she called me and then texted at 2am, saying she had a bad dream and her first instinct was to call me. I know it's a lie because she never called me when I begged her but now that she's alone, I feel bad because no one is there for her. It's not in me to see anyone hurt.. not even my worst enemies.

 

I know it's wrong but I'd rather get hurt than hurt someone if i had to choose. i know it's the moral choice but I'm gonna get chewed up in the real world if I keep that up.

[carhill]

"Is it so bad if I want to see how you are doing once in a while?"

 

"You know me; me and boys never get along"

 

The other night, she called me and then texted at 2am, saying she had a bad dream and her first instinct was to call me.

 

Classic. Mind. F*ck.

 

I ate that stuff up when my self-esteem was in the toilet. I can look in the mirror now and laugh at the absurdity of who I was then. It sounds like you're getting clarity. Hope it works out

[Perhaps]

Classic. Mind. F*ck.

 

I ate that stuff up when my self-esteem was in the toilet. I can look in the mirror now and laugh at the absurdity of who I was then. It sounds like you're getting clarity. Hope it works out

 

 

Thanks carhill, I hope I can someday look back and laugh at my naïveness.

[DenverBachelor]

Really? You REALLY think it's okay to refer to women as "bitches" in a public forum (or ever??)

 

It was a reference to Snoop Doggie Dog's "Gin n' Juice," although I probably should have realized not everyone would have gotten that reference.

 

The song was about happier times.

[steveshopeful]

I don't know why I am having such a hard time with this. I can't seem to let her go. There are good days and bad days. The first week I was in complete shock she left.....I couldn't even believe she called me on Monday to tell me she accepted a job half way across the country and left the next day. Then she wanted to be friends which I could not understand at all and when I told her I could not be friends because it hurt too much, she called me an ***hole. She was so cold to me.....it was as if she was a different person. We spend almost everyday together and I fell in love with her 7 month old son as well. I just don't know how to make it stop

[Perhaps]

I don't know why I am having such a hard time with this. I can't seem to let her go. There are good days and bad days. The first week I was in complete shock she left.....I couldn't even believe she called me on Monday to tell me she accepted a job half way across the country and left the next day. Then she wanted to be friends which I could not understand at all and when I told her I could not be friends because it hurt too much, she called me an ***hole. She was so cold to me.....it was as if she was a different person. We spend almost everyday together and I fell in love with her 7 month old son as well. I just don't know how to make it stop

 

Man, I know Exactly how it feels. And trust me, let her call you an a** for not wanting to be friends. Take a step back and look at how she's treating you. No self respecting person would take this crap. Don't make the same mistake as me; stand up or yourself. She knows what she did is wrong but she won't admit to it. I know her type - my ex is the exact same. I HATE how our exes KNOW they're wrong but they'll never admit to it. That's what pisses me off the most.

Just tell her that you tried. Then you don't give her the time of day. You're moving on now.

 

I know how horrible it is and I'm in a better place now. I wonder how I pulled through and I hate to think of anyone being in the same position as me. You have to let go - she isn't the girl you fell in love with.

 

I know it's counter intuitive but I really hope you listen and focus on making yourself better instead of catering to a manipulative *****'s needs.

[steveshopeful]

Man, I know Exactly how it feels. And trust me, let her call you an a** for not wanting to be friends. Take a step back and look at how she's treating you. No self respecting person would take this crap. Don't make the same mistake as me; stand up or yourself. She knows what she did is wrong but she won't admit to it. I know her type - my ex is the exact same. I HATE how our exes KNOW they're wrong but they'll never admit to it. That's what pisses me off the most.

Just tell her that you tried. Then you don't give her the time of day. You're moving on now.

 

I know how horrible it is and I'm in a better place now. I wonder how I pulled through and I hate to think of anyone being in the same position as me. You have to let go - she isn't the girl you fell in love with.

 

I know it's counter intuitive but I really hope you listen and focus on making yourself better instead of catering to a manipulative *****'s needs.

 

I have been reading about self esteem, seeing a therapist and have been working out and eating healthier. I feel I have come a long way from 5 weeks ago. I lost 22 lbs and have 6 more to go to reach my goal. Problem is that I own my own business and can't seem to get motivated to find any work. I have pretty much been living in my bed for 3 weeks now. The first couple weeks I had work and kept myself busy.....but now I just lay around

[DenverBachelor]

I HATE how our exes KNOW they're wrong but they'll never admit to it. That's what pisses me off the most.

 

Wrong compared to what? Is it wrong that Venus spins around in the wrong direction compared to the rest of the planets? Coincidently, isn't that where women are supposedly from?

 

When they left, they didn't have the same feelings as in the beginning. Are they "wrong" to feel a certain way? I don't think so. It isn't the act of them breaking up with us that is in question but how they went about it, right? Otherwise, we're being just like little kids when someone takes our candy away from us.

 

When it comes to people's emotions, there really is no clear right or wrong. Now actions ...

[Tayla]

Sometimes you take the high road and sometimes you do silly actions that you look back upon with the WTF was I thinking! Nothing is written in stone on how to handle the exes. And thank heavens for that!

 

Riddle me this though, If in ten years you don't think people change, then definitely do not forgive them . IF you think people can change, then forgive when its due.

[DenverBachelor]

Riddle me this though, If in ten years you don't think people change, then definitely do not forgive them . IF you think people can change, then forgive when its due.

 

Everyone is constantly changing and everyone deserves a chance to change. The question is whether external change is actually the result of real internal change. Many people spend most of their lives blending into their surroundings and never really figure out who they are internally.

[Perhaps]

Wrong compared to what? Is it wrong that Venus spins around in the wrong direction compared to the rest of the planets? Coincidently, isn't that where women are supposedly from?

 

When they left, they didn't have the same feelings as in the beginning. Are they "wrong" to feel a certain way? I don't think so. It isn't the act of them breaking up with us that is in question but how they went about it, right? Otherwise, we're being just like little kids when someone takes our candy away from us.

 

When it comes to people's emotions, there really is no clear right or wrong. Now actions ...

 

I respectfully disagree. This was the same girl I broke up with previously so I know that losing feelings is a part of the deal - it's just one of many unknowns you accept as a risk when you initiate a relationship with someone.

 

When I say my ex was wrong, I mean manipulative, took advantage of my guilt and sincerity. Although right and wrong and relative terms in today's society (my wrong may be your right) but there are some ways to act which are just wrong.. one of them being unable to take responsibility of your actions. I apologized to my ex for all the pain I caused her and I spent months literally proving to her that I was sorry because I knew I had to back up my words. But that showed my sincerity and how sorry I really felt. We're not talking about losing feelings here; we're talking manipulating a person because you know he/she loves you enough to do anything for you.

 

Believe it or not, if my last posts indicate anything about me, it's that I am more than ready to accept more than my fair share of the blame for the downfall of the relationship.

 

Whatever her emotions were, I understand. I was never mad at her for telling she just didn't feel that way about me, though it hurt. What angered me is her actions... her drugs, her alcohol, her telling me how she gave her number out to a guy knowing I loved her deeply. This is not even a personal issue -- there are certain types of behaviour/actions that are considered dishonest, deceitful, manipulative and hurtful. I'm not saying my ex is a bad person. She's a good person and I wish her all the best but the way she treated me was wrong. And that, sir, is a fact.

[Ronni_W]

Sorry ahead of time...another long post.

And you're right, I haven't forgiven her yet but I still want her... if that makes sense.

Of course it does . You DO deserve to feel good about yourself, and to have happy-positive experiences in life. If you believe that this girl is well-suited to helping you achieve those desires/goals/needs...well, then, she is such a person, and you would still want her in your life (so that she can be helping you meet your needs.)

 

OTOH, you could also examine that belief and find out if it is telling you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. You might find out that she is not, after all, quite so well-suited to the tasks as you have been telling yourself. Forgiveness and letting go could then arise from your new/updated beliefs about her long-term role in your life.

 

As a kid, though you're told to be nice in general, you're also taught that if you do bad things, bad things happen to you, and if you do good, it will come back around as well.

Yes, that is every adult's lot in life: to examine all the childhood messages and programming, and try to sort out what was incomplete, misguided and/or inaccurate. And also to determine if what is left fits in with our own ADULT values and vision of ourselves, and/or is still relevant, useful and supportive for our current-day goals, desires, needs, etc.

 

Put another way, we need to do a lot of examining, revising, updating, deleting and completing of all the childhood messages. Always keeping in mind that a lot of it was just crap.

 

So, subconsciously, every good action is done with the points tally in mind... because if one day, something bad happens to you, you say to yourself, "I've been a good person.. I don't deserve this".

Depends on your other beliefs and philosophies. For myself, I believe my crappy outcomes are related to my crappy thoughts and deeds...but not necessarily just from this lifetime. It can also be that what appears, in my limited vision, to be a "negative" can actually hold important lessons for me...meaning that the situation/circumstance/event that I'm perceiving as "unfair" is actually very positive and for my own highest good. (But I just can't see that yet, so I judge and resist...and don't learn the lesson(s)...and then it keeps happening...and I still just stay dense and resist learning the lesson...krazy karma wheel that I keep myself on!)

 

it's something that I need to work on because I'm always conflicting myself.. trying to find the right balance between right and wrong.

I would encourage you to become your own wise counsel and authority on what and when feels appropriate/inappropriate for you on a personal level. (I try not to think in terms of "right/good" and "wrong/bad" when it comes to this stuff.)

 

Sometimes it is appropriate to say 'no' and sometimes it is appropriate to say 'yes'...to the EXACT SAME request. It will depend on where you are; on how well your response matches up with your own values, desires, goals and in-the-moment inner resources and mental-physical-emotional-spiritual limits. That is, the "nice" that you do for others must also be in alignment with your own needs, etc.

Do what and when will leave YOU feeling better for having done it (not angry, resentful and bitter for even having been asked.) The karma police can totally detect when we do "nice/good" things externally but end up feeling hostile internally -- "No karma points for you!" when that happens

 

I've often done stuff just cos I didn't want the hassle of feeling guilty after I did not do it, or cos I wanted/hoped others would think or say, "Oh, Ronni's such a great <whatever>!" -- I was then able to do it happily and sincerely because I had clarity of my self-interest.

 

Which is to say, I totally agree with you: humans are HUGELY motivated by self-interest. I think the only thing "wrong" with that is when people can't admit it to themselves -- they're always doing what they consider to be "nice things for others" but end up feeling and acting like victims, unappreciated, over-burdened, resentful, angry, etc. Which, as far as the karma police, means it was not at all a "nice thing" for them to have done. At least, that's my understanding with my karma police

 

Hugs and good luck to you.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Ronni_W

[Perhaps]

Ronni, every word you said resonates with what I believe - you sure you're not a mind reader?

 

You are spot on when you say that I really have to evaluate if she really does have the ability to make me happy or whether its just my biased mind trying to make something out of nothing.

 

And I am at a point where I am trying to evaluate and group the beliefs and values that I was taught as a child and the values that are to be accepted if I am to live in society. I guess I am naive that way... I need to be more practical with myself and my beliefs.

 

... what appears, in my limited vision, to be a "negative" can actually hold important lessons for me...meaning that the situation/circumstance/event that I'm perceiving as "unfair" is actually very positive and for my own highest good. (But I just can't see that yet, so I judge and resist...and don't learn the lesson(s)...and then it keeps happening...and I still just stay dense and resist learning the lesson

 

You pretty much nailed it with that passage. I'm also of the opinion that sometimes a perceived negative is actually a positive but our narrow vision prevents us from seeing the whole picture clearly -- leading us to make incomplete conclusions about what is right/wrong, fair/unfair, etc.

 

That is, the "nice" that you do for others must also be in alignment with your own needs, etc.

 

Interesting you say that because I always thought of self-sacrifice as the greatest of all sacrifices. As a kid, I always read of stories where great people gave up their interests to help someone else. Ideally, such actions (volunteering, for example) are supposed to initiate a sense of humility. But for me, personally, something like that creates arrogance where I say, "I'm such a good person; I am the best" -- nothing wrong with confidence but I think there's nothing worse than arrogance. But, like you said, some of the stuff we learn as kids just isn't applicable to the real world...

 

In the end, I think what matters is not so much the action but more the motivation behind that action. Good deeds aren't really good deeds if you do them with the hope of gaining some good karma.

 

There's a lot I have to figure out and you've definitely pointed me in the right direction. I really appreciate your responses and it's good to know that there's someone who shares my thought process.

 

Thanks again!

[Ronni_W]

Perhaps, it's nice 'chatting' with you, too

Not sure your age, but you're not at all coming across as "naive". You are doing self-examination that can take many years...in fact, my plan is to make it a lifetime thing. To me, "naive" are those who think that self-examination is unnecessary, or who are afraid to undertake it.

...I always thought of self-sacrifice as the greatest of all sacrifices.

If you'll notice, often the people who extol the virtues of self-sacrifice do very little of it, themselves. Same as those who label others "selfish" are usually doing it to get the other person to be or do what the name-caller wants -- which is, of course, very selfish (and manipulative and controlling) of him or her.

 

I haven't actually heard (before now <lol>) that volunteering is supposed to generate humility in the volunteer. Though often humility is associated with hardcore volunteers...like Mother Teresa and Princess Diana and Jesus. But the majority of us are not that type of volunteer. Also agree with you that some do volunteer work ONLY for the glory of it, but if you don't tell yourself "I am so good and the best just cos I volunteer" then you will not cultivate arrogance about it. To me, so much of it comes down to self-talk.

 

At the same time, nothing wrong with acknowledging and celebrating your gifts, talents and strengths...as long as you stay humble about it. For me, humility and gratitude are connected. For example, "Yes, I really am an excellent <whatever>. I was fortunate enough to be born with the brains / have the educational opportunities / have some really excellent teachers. I'm grateful for that." Like that, see? I don't find that arrogant at all.

 

In any case, though. Regardless of the volunteer's deeper intentions or dysfunctional crap, those in need do still benefit as the result of the volunteer deciding to be of service. I think, as far as karma points go, it might just be a 'wash' when there's also arrogance or too much self-interest going on with the service -- the person is not gaining points, but not losing any, either.

 

I think what matters is not so much the action but more the motivation behind that action.

I see it a little differently. I think how we 'convert' our intention into an outcome is also important. For example, if I get a lot of "good deeds" done but through yelling, swearing and just bulldozing my way through whatever challenges and obstacles are in my path regardless of how I'm impacting others...then that is not too good at all. So, I think the action must also be made of a kind and loving 'fabric'.

 

And then, IMO, we must also hold ourselves accountable for the actual outcomes that we produce regardless of our intentions or our actions. Because, quite often, our intentions and outcomes have very little in common. And to just say, "But I didn't mean to hurt you," is NOT enough, as far as interpersonal relationships go. "I didn't intend to cause you to suffer" is NOT an apology.

 

Good deeds aren't really good deeds if you do them with the hope of gaining some good karma.

I am of the same opinion. I do it to (hopefully) to be helpful, and to (hopefully) help others feel good about themselves, and to feel good about myself or not feel bad about myself. Not necessarily always in that order. And leave my Karma to take care of itself.

 

Wishing you a happy day...and Good Karma!