Second MC session

[NoIDidn't]

The only problem I have with it is that the stress from the recent changes is normal. You are allowing him to blame her for being chaotic during an understandibly stressful time. You broke up, he moved out and he comes into her home bringing that stress with him, then they have their own stress to deal with and a child there who needs to adjust to it all. Two and a half weeks is hardley enough time to overcome those stressful feelings and settle down into a place of harmony. I don't see this as much of a victory.

 

If he judged her personality based on those two and a half weeks, how does he judge the rest of the world? You?

 

What, if anything, does this have to do with Spark's marriage? Why should she care that his two and a half weeks in her house were stressful?!!

 

What W actually wants her H to live in "a place of harmony" after he just turned his home life with her and their kids upside down? No W cares if the APs house becomes "a place of harmony". Ever.

 

The man had idealized the OW during the affair. He learned in two weeks that she wasn't who he thought she was. He probably also learned that Spark wasn't at all what he made her out to be.

 

The main issue that I have with the post that Spark made is that she keeps reliving the issues of the affair. Much like she insisted on contacting the OW.

 

Spark, what is this confirmation of your instincts going to do for your marriage? I hate to be harsh, but it seems like you are more concerned with being right than accepting that you can't change or determine the outcome of his actions.

 

You don't have to be right. You don't have to win. You might find that you will win, but lose your marriage. You might find that you can lose, but gain a marriage more fulfilling then you've ever dreamed. I think your H is trying to work with you, but you don't seem very willing to work with him. You complained that the first session didn't meet your expectations. He respected your wishes, or directives, and initiated a conversation more to your liking. And you derailed it with disrespectful outbursts. "Permission" always comes off as parental. You want to stay away from saying things like that. I know what you meant, but the truth is, he didn't need your permission to do what he did. He needed some boundaries in place. He can learn them in MC, and so can you.

 

You are looking for MC to instantly fix things. It won't. Accent the positives to know you have a place to start from. If all you guys speak about in MC is the negatives of the A, and not the good things you still have going right now, this therapy is going to turn into how to end the marriage amicably - not how to save it.

[Snowflower]

We walk in and my fWS says, we truly are not here to speak of the kids, the in-laws....We need to discuss and heal from the affair.

 

MC: Well I need to know the stressors in your lives to help you.

 

fWS: Okay, we can get to that at a later time.

 

Mr. Sparks starts to talk about his depression, thinking no one loved or appreciated him, and that the draw was going someplace where he was wanted: To her and her child. There, he felt like a hero.

 

Then he turns to me and says: "So, what do you want to know?"

 

 

This is good progress for your H, based on what you have described.

 

He opened the session with the topic you wanted to discuss, the A. And then asked you what you wanted to know.

 

NO conflict avoidance! I hope you gave him a hug and a kiss for that after your session.

 

How do you think the session went? Your H attempted to answer everything as honestly as he could.

 

Spark, I think your heart is lagging behind your head. You sound like a thinker--I'm exactly the same way. You need to understand the affair. I did this too. What he did, what she did, what they did. Okay, I think you've got a lot of that information now--all stored in your head.

 

Now what are you going to do with it? Let your head take the lead or your heart?

 

At some point, you have to listen and decide with your heart what you want your future with your H to be...I know it's hard. I'm in the middle of this process myself.

 

Make sense?

[silktricks]

"Permission" always comes off as parental. You want to stay away from saying things like that. I know what you meant' date=' but the truth is, [b']he didn't need your permission to do what he did[/b]. He needed some boundaries in place. He can learn them in MC, and so can you.

 

Just a point - Spark didn't say anything about her giving him permission. She asked how he gave himself permission.

 

I really do think you're doing great, Spark.

[NoIDidn't]

Just a point - Spark didn't say anything about her giving him permission. She asked how he gave himself permission.

 

I really do think you're doing great, Spark.

 

Which was answered by the next sentence: he lacked boundaries.

 

And I also pointed out why the word "permission" gave him pause. What she meant, and what he heard were obviously quite different. The word caused an emotional response, and not a thoughtful one.

 

Spark has given her version of what happened in his affair several times. Maybe she already feels she knows what he used to give himself permission and just wants to hear him say it. But what really would be the point of having him say something that will be used against him later? What would be the point of having him say something like "I thought you hated me, so I hated you back. That's how I gave myself permission"?

 

Spark, why did you ask him how he gave himself permission to keep going to her house? I asked my H something similar but he never went to her place. And got a similar pause afterwards. It put him on the defensive. For MC to help, neither of you should spend the time on the defensive but trying to understand the other. Deal with the fact that he gave himself permission, its too late for him to take that part back.

 

Its only been two sessions. Take your time. True reconciliation takes a long time. Don't be in a rush to feel better.

 

 

(((Spark)))

[White Flower]

What, if anything, does this have to do with Spark's marriage? Why should she care that his two and a half weeks in her house were stressful?!!

Speaking as BW to BW, I didn't see it as any victory that her H saw exOW's 'true character' as really true due to the fact that 2 and 1/2 weeks during a time of CHANGE (change=stress) is a true measure of character. And of course it had nothing to do with Spark's M; just her feeling victorious over her H's assessment of OW's true character.

What W actually wants her H to live in "a place of harmony" after he just turned his home life with her and their kids upside down? No W cares if the APs house becomes "a place of harmony". Ever.

Never said she wanted it. Besides, it's not condusive to the true outcome. I never said she wanted her H to live in a place of harmony. I said it couldn't be a harmonious place to live in just two and a half weeks with all that unpacking and adjusting to new surroundings.

 

The man had idealized the OW during the affair. He learned in two weeks that she wasn't who he thought she was. He probably also learned that Spark wasn't at all what he made her out to be.

I rather suspect he learned more about himself in those two weeks.

 

The main issue that I have with the post that Spark made is that she keeps reliving the issues of the affair. Much like she insisted on contacting the OW.

 

Spark, what is this confirmation of your instincts going to do for your marriage? I hate to be harsh, but it seems like you are more concerned with being right than accepting that you can't change or determine the outcome of his actions.

 

You don't have to be right. You don't have to win. You might find that you will win, but lose your marriage. You might find that you can lose, but gain a marriage more fulfilling then you've ever dreamed. I think your H is trying to work with you, but you don't seem very willing to work with him. You complained that the first session didn't meet your expectations. He respected your wishes, or directives, and initiated a conversation more to your liking. And you derailed it with disrespectful outbursts. "Permission" always comes off as parental. You want to stay away from saying things like that. I know what you meant, but the truth is, he didn't need your permission to do what he did. He needed some boundaries in place. He can learn them in MC, and so can you.

 

You are looking for MC to instantly fix things. It won't. Accent the positives to know you have a place to start from. If all you guys speak about in MC is the negatives of the A, and not the good things you still have going right now, this therapy is going to turn into how to end the marriage amicably - not how to save it.

The rest of the post I think I agree with. Spark, you're very much like me. You're analytical and pensive. I wonder if I go too far and drain those around me with my everlasting inquisitiveness. I think they call it Paralysis Analysis.

 

I get that you want to understand the hows and the whys, I would too. But I'm starting to like Seren's approach to it all. Maybe you should just be happy that he's home laying next to you each night.

 

I know I would appreciate that right about now.

[Spark1111]

After reading many of the above posts, I am not sure now if I have clearly stated where my many residual insecurities have come from, 2.5 years out.

 

I have personally construed together the info and timeline of the affair from examining bank statements and cell phone bills, very early after DDAy. I intuited the rest.

 

I then begged him to flesh it out for me. He could not do so. Every attempt caused him to dissemble.

 

I backed off until he was mentally stable enough to do so. This was a great detriment to my own personal healing.

 

All those hours of talking after accepting a WS back, NEVER HAPPENED FOR ME, never constructively or with any personal introspection. It always deteriorated into defensiveness and argument and pain. I would back off again.

 

A few times he answered a question, I then discovered he lied, or omitted, or minimzed to me out of fear of losing me, basically setting the recovery clock back to zero.

 

We got stuck big time, with him wanting to just move forward and me resenting his inability to talk to me about almost ALL of a 1.5 year affair in OUR lives.

 

This is called how not to handle the aftermath of an affair! A person with less strength would not still be here.

 

Having my intuition validated is a truly wonderful thing. I am not, never have, looked to demonize the OW. What disturbs me the most is how delusional his thinking was at that time; didn't see me, nor her, nor his life with anything resembling the reality of all personas and situations.

 

 

It is why I am still afraid to trust a future with him today. It is why his direct answering of my questions shows a huge leap in emotional and mental confidence.

 

Does anyone get this?

[Spark1111]

Another thing:

 

I am the child of a psychotic mother who tried to commit suiced when I was 11 years old. She refused medication, and never truly came back to me emotionally.

 

Some affairs are about love, romance, unhappiness in the marriage, unhappiness within the WS or with the BS.

 

But some, have an underlying theme of mental instability, and for Spark's inner child, this was a huge trigger of a disasterous event in her childhood, one she is dealing with in IC.

 

So, maybe unlike most or many BS, she needs a different kind of reassurance to move safely into the future.....

 

 

KWIM?

[Snowflower]

 

 

It is why I am still afraid to trust a future with him today. It is why his direct answering of my questions shows a huge leap in emotional and mental confidence.

 

Does anyone get this?

 

Spark, please don't feel like you have to defend yourself to anyone here. You have enough on your plate.

 

I think you are just being completely honest and doing your own introspection within your posts--some will take issue with some of the things you wrote and some will offer misguided advice, but they mean well.

 

I think it takes a lot of courage to post your innermost thoughts, feelings and insecurities for everyone to read and pick over. I know I can't do this.

[Snowflower]

Another thing:

 

I am the child of a psychotic mother who tried to commit suiced when I was 11 years old. She refused medication, and never truly came back to me emotionally.

 

Some affairs are about love, romance, unhappiness in the marriage, unhappiness within the WS or with the BS.

 

But some, have an underlying theme of mental instability, and for Spark's inner child, this was a huge trigger of a disasterous event in her childhood, one she is dealing with in IC.

 

So, maybe unlike most or many BS, she needs a different kind of reassurance to move safely into the future.....

 

 

KWIM?

 

Spark, this is so awful. I'm sorry you had to deal with this as a child, I can't even imagine what that was like for you.

 

I hope your H will be able to help give you the type of reassurance that you need eventually.

[Spark1111]

Spark, please don't feel like you have to defend yourself to anyone here. You have enough on your plate.

 

I think you are just being completely honest and doing your own introspection within your posts--some will take issue with some of the things you wrote and some will offer misguided advice, but they mean well.

 

I think it takes a lot of courage to post your innermost thoughts, feelings and insecurities for everyone to read and pick over. I know I can't do this.

 

Thanks, SF!

 

I am also a former writer and writing is a form of therapy for me! It works. I have always been told by my editors that my writing rings true because it is SO heart-wrenchingly honest.

 

Do not know how to do it any other way.

[Spark1111]

Which was answered by the next sentence: he lacked boundaries.

 

And I also pointed out why the word "permission" gave him pause. What she meant, and what he heard were obviously quite different. The word caused an emotional response, and not a thoughtful one.

 

Spark has given her version of what happened in his affair several times. Maybe she already feels she knows what he used to give himself permission and just wants to hear him say it. But what really would be the point of having him say something that will be used against him later? What would be the point of having him say something like "I thought you hated me, so I hated you back. That's how I gave myself permission"?

 

Spark, why did you ask him how he gave himself permission to keep going to her house? I asked my H something similar but he never went to her place. And got a similar pause afterwards. It put him on the defensive. For MC to help, neither of you should spend the time on the defensive but trying to understand the other. Deal with the fact that he gave himself permission, its too late for him to take that part back.

 

Its only been two sessions. Take your time. True reconciliation takes a long time. Don't be in a rush to feel better.

 

 

(((Spark)))

 

Here is my vulnerability: because falling into depression cannot be the catchall for all reasons to have an affair.

 

Because believing no one loved you because you fell into a depression cannot be the catchall for forgetting your boundaries and having an affair.

 

Many depressed people do not have affairs. They RECOGNIZE their depression and take proactive steps to get better before they commit self-destructive behaviors that push everyone away, not only affairs.

 

Will a future depression then be used as an excuse to have another affair, or another self-destructive behavior that causes us to crash and burn?

 

I think the MC recognized this and alluded to it in my need to feel safe.

[2sure]

Does anyone get this?]

 

Yeah, I do. Completely and tearfully. Our stories and feelings have had similarities. Especially the part where you do all the heavy lifting trying to save the marriage and your H just wants to forget about it and move on.

But there our paths diverge. Your H has reached out to you, is communicating with you, it sounds like the two of you are getting past accuse and defend. We didnt do that.

 

As to Sparks or her H seeming to disparage OW - thats not whats happening here at all. At all.

[Fight4Me]

Does anyone get this?

 

Yes, I do. You put your own healing on hold because you knew your husband was literally incapable of helping you at the time. While some may disagree, I believe that the WS is the only person who has the power to heal us going forward with reconciliation. How they answer our questions, deal with our triggers, respond to our outbursts, etc. directly impacts our healing process.

 

This is YOUR time, now. This is not something that can be dealt with in IC because your fWH has to now do for you what you did for him, and to an even greater degree. It doesn't matter if it's been 2 years, 5 years, or 20 years. It needs to be done in order to declare your marriage "reconciled."

 

Thank you for having the courage to share your experiences with everyone here. There are BS's out there who will benefit from it, and hopefully WS's who will learn how to help their BS's heal.

[Jilly Bean]

Wow.

 

So, basically he admitted the only reason he's back with you isn't because he realized he made a mistake and loved you more, it was because he found out the OW was too much drama.

 

THAT to me sounds like a guy who is poised to cheat again. It doesn't sound like he's back in this marriage from a real burning desire - it sounds like default.

 

If it were me, when I heard all of that in counseling, I would have been done.

 

I give you a lot of credit for sticking with this, but I have to question why, when the writing is on the wall, IMO.

[Spark1111]

Does anyone get this?]

 

Yeah, I do. Completely and tearfully. Our stories and feelings have had similarities. Especially the part where you do all the heavy lifting trying to save the marriage and your H just wants to forget about it and move on.

But there our paths diverge. Your H has reached out to you, is communicating with you, it sounds like the two of you are getting past accuse and defend. We didnt do that.

 

As to Sparks or her H seeming to disparage OW - thats not whats happening here at all. At all.

 

Thank you. It is not the normal aftermath of a reconciled relationship, based on MHO.

 

It was waiting for the WS to heal many things within himself before we could address many of my unanswered intuitions.

 

Heavy-lifting is putting a shine on it.

 

Thank you for the support.

[Spark1111]

Yes, I do. You put your own healing on hold because you knew your husband was literally incapable of helping you at the time. While some may disagree, I believe that the WS is the only person who has the power to heal us going forward with reconciliation. How they answer our questions, deal with our triggers, respond to our outbursts, etc. directly impacts our healing process.

 

This is YOUR time, now. This is not something that can be dealt with in IC because your fWH has to now do for you what you did for him, and to an even greater degree. It doesn't matter if it's been 2 years, 5 years, or 20 years. It needs to be done in order to declare your marriage "reconciled."

 

Thank you for having the courage to share your experiences with everyone here. There are BS's out there who will benefit from it, and hopefully WS's who will learn how to help their BS's heal.

 

The more trusting and naive and innocent (translation=in love) the BS is, the harder the blow, the harder the healing.

 

And yes, you are right. I cannot heal without his emotional compassion. It has been a long time coming.

 

Did he tearfully, painfully regret his actions? Every day of the last 2.5 years.

 

Was he ready to introspect as to the why of his actions? No, not really. He was stuck on his depression made him do it. So I got stuck there, sympathetic to his depression, but in all honesty, that can't be all of it.

[Spark1111]

Wow.

 

So, basically he admitted the only reason he's back with you isn't because he realized he made a mistake and loved you more, it was because he found out the OW was too much drama.

 

THAT to me sounds like a guy who is poised to cheat again. It doesn't sound like he's back in this marriage from a real burning desire - it sounds like default.

 

If it were me, when I heard all of that in counseling, I would have been done.

 

I give you a lot of credit for sticking with this, but I have to question why, when the writing is on the wall, IMO.

 

Oh, no, no, no....JB.

 

I believed he was in love with her. He believed he was in love with her. I threw him out and told him to go get her. It seemed at that point it was the last thing he wanted. No one was more surprised than I.

 

He loved the way she made him feel; no flaws, no job loss, no depression, no knowing of his history. He could/can always wipe the slate clean with an Ow/another OW/ a new OW.

 

There's a big slate here.

 

I seek reassurance that he will not have that need in the future.

 

I have no doubt he loves and adores me. But his instability makes me question a secure future with him.

 

I am strong. But I can never go through this again.

[Jilly Bean]

He loved the way she made him feel; no flaws, no job loss, no depression, no knowing of his history. He could/can always wipe the slate clean with an Ow/another OW/ a new OW.

 

This is very typical of all cheaters though, isn't it? I mean, an affair isn't real life. It's grins and giggles. It's not fighting over dirty dishes in the sink or the kids.

 

I think a lot of people who cheat must be very unsatisfied with themselves and their own lives so having an affair means they can reinvent themselves, right? Blame the spouse for their failings, and then be this amazing person to their AP.

 

Conversely, the OP seems to need to think their AP IS some magical, white knight hero.

 

I guess this is why few of these liaisons work out, right? The masks come off, and reality sets in.

 

Then the WS realizes life with someone else is no better, if not worse, because their spouse accepted them, warts and all. Real love, rather than the fantasy love of an affair.

 

I hope you NEVER have to go through this again, Sparks. You are strong, and I don't think you'll be this situation again, no matter what happens with your marriage.

 

[White Flower]

After reading many of the above posts, I am not sure now if I have clearly stated where my many residual insecurities have come from, 2.5 years out.

 

I have personally construed together the info and timeline of the affair from examining bank statements and cell phone bills, very early after DDAy. I intuited the rest.

 

I then begged him to flesh it out for me. He could not do so. Every attempt caused him to dissemble.

 

I backed off until he was mentally stable enough to do so. This was a great detriment to my own personal healing.

 

All those hours of talking after accepting a WS back, NEVER HAPPENED FOR ME, never constructively or with any personal introspection. It always deteriorated into defensiveness and argument and pain. I would back off again.

 

A few times he answered a question, I then discovered he lied, or omitted, or minimzed to me out of fear of losing me, basically setting the recovery clock back to zero.

 

We got stuck big time, with him wanting to just move forward and me resenting his inability to talk to me about almost ALL of a 1.5 year affair in OUR lives.

 

This is called how not to handle the aftermath of an affair! A person with less strength would not still be here.

 

Having my intuition validated is a truly wonderful thing. I am not, never have, looked to demonize the OW. What disturbs me the most is how delusional his thinking was at that time; didn't see me, nor her, nor his life with anything resembling the reality of all personas and situations.

 

 

It is why I am still afraid to trust a future with him today. It is why his direct answering of my questions shows a huge leap in emotional and mental confidence.

 

Does anyone get this?

 

Another thing:

 

I am the child of a psychotic mother who tried to commit suiced when I was 11 years old. She refused medication, and never truly came back to me emotionally.

 

Some affairs are about love, romance, unhappiness in the marriage, unhappiness within the WS or with the BS.

 

But some, have an underlying theme of mental instability, and for Spark's inner child, this was a huge trigger of a disasterous event in her childhood, one she is dealing with in IC.

 

So, maybe unlike most or many BS, she needs a different kind of reassurance to move safely into the future.....

 

 

KWIM?

Ah, thanks Spark! I think I see how you needed this from him. I had no idea how much he was holding back. You weren't necessarily thrilled to know or believe OW's personality wasn't all that wonderful after he moved in, it was the fact that he FINALLY shared any of his feelings with you. It must have felt like light was peering in on the darkness? Glad to hear there has been some movement in MC.

[OFGnomore]

Gosh Spark, posting the history about your mom makes sense.

 

I'm sorry you had to go thru major trauma twice in your life.

[Spark1111]

Well, here is where IC is so important: to discover what your triggers are from childhood.

 

I married the one man who made me feel safe after a lifetime of feeling no one can make you safe except yourself.

 

It is a painfully hard lesson to re-learn in the aftermath of an affair.

[White Flower]

Well, here is where IC is so important: to discover what your triggers are from childhood.

 

I married the one man who made me feel safe after a lifetime of feeling no one can make you safe except yourself.

 

It is a painfully hard lesson to re-learn in the aftermath of an affair.

Spark my heart goes out to you. I felt exactly the same as you when I learned of my exH's gambling problem, and then again with his EA. First my hard work and savings gone, and then my H's loyalty.

 

You really show grace in the face of despondency.

[OFGnomore]

Well, here is where IC is so important: to discover what your triggers are from childhood.

 

I married the one man who made me feel safe after a lifetime of feeling no one can make you safe except yourself.

 

It is a painfully hard lesson to re-learn in the aftermath of an affair.

 

Spark, you may actually be learning this lesson for the first time in your life. I know I am. My H responded badly initially about my A. But a 1.5 yr later, he's actually pretty good with most of it. For 2 reasons, I confessed and how I handled the aftermath with transparency, IC etc. on my own accord. But most importantly, my H stands firm in that he is someone who would never cheat or go thru any midlife crisis and also that my cheating would not destroy him. And this is his direct quote, "because my momma loved me". And because of that, he has a deep love and respect of himself a priceless gift a parent can give a child.

[Spark1111]

Spark my heart goes out to you. I felt exactly the same as you when I learned of my exH's gambling problem, and then again with his EA. First my hard work and savings gone, and then my H's loyalty.

 

You really show grace in the face of despondency.

 

Thank you! Some people allow their past to define them as lifelong victims.

 

I refused to do that. I wanted people to judge me based on the woman I am today. It's tooooo easy to garner sympathy and opportunities from thos who feel sorry for us. I wanted my opportunities to arrive based on merit and performances and resourcefulness.

 

But affair as trigger for childhood emotional abandonment?

 

Oh yeah. Big time.

[Spark1111]

Spark, you may actually be learning this lesson for the first time in your life. I know I am. My H responded badly initially about my A. But a 1.5 yr later, he's actually pretty good with most of it. For 2 reasons, I confessed and how I handled the aftermath with transparency, IC etc. on my own accord. But most importantly, my H stands firm in that he is someone who would never cheat or go thru any midlife crisis and also that my cheating would not destroy him. And this is his direct quote, "because my momma loved me". And because of that, he has a deep love and respect of himself a priceless gift a parent can give a child.

 

Love it!

 

For me, it would be "cuz my daddy loved me!"