ladydesigner Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Well - it depends, obviously. What would you need to say about someone who unrelentingly harassed your wife for about 2 years post affair, tried to hit her with her car, threw rocks and eggs at your vehicles, etc. Frankly, he didn't have to say a thing - and pretty much didn't. Her actions spoke volumes. That would pretty much make me see my XAP in a negative light. I am sorry you had a bunny boiler on your hands Silktricks. This is a great thread btw Spark.
fooled once Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 You are missing the point, Spark. You wallow in your pain. It is like a wound that you keep scratching open every time it is about to heal. You keep starting topics, you keep telling what a mistake your H made, what a bad person the AP is. And you delude yourself that if your H will crawl through the dust for you, you won't feel that pain anymore. That is not true because it will never be enough for you. The reason why is that your focusing on the pain because that way you don't have to move forward. It is up to you to find out why you don't want to move forward. I think that focusing on the A puts you in a strong position because your H remains the bad guy. But don't forget that you took him back. That should normally mean that you are willing to move on. Taking him back and then constantly annoying him with the affair, is a very double message you are sending. sorry, but this is a load of bull in my view. this sounds like it was written either by a cheater or an OW. not by a BS who loves their spouse and wants the marriage to work. Spark is NOT the type of woman who wants to continue to beat her husband over the head with "you had an affair, how could you" crap. She has no desire to wallow in the affair or never forgive him or make him do double time to make up for the hurt and disappointment HE caused by cheating. No one forced him to cheat. HE chose that route. To give him a free pass and imply Spark should be over it is nonsense. What's the MC's *plan*? A competent MC has a marital infidelity recovery plan. Specific steps. Specific work. Guided challenge. Our psychologist neutralized loaded language ('affair', infidelity', etc) by using, consistently, language of 'unhealthy', 'inappropriate', 'detrimental', wrt my EA and kept up the pressure on 'accepting' that reality and its effect on the M. Session after session, week after week. The effects could be seen here on LS in my discourse over time (back in 2008) with Owl, who had recovered his M from his W's A. Along with that acceptance must come shared responsibility for the M. No M exists in a vacuum. Both partners own their role. A good MC looks at, challenges, and supports *both* perspectives and works to find a healthy middle ground. If such ground is untenable, as it was for us, a good MC will call an end to it, as ours did. 'There's nothing more that I can do for you. It's time to make a decision'. In retrospect, it was this proactive and challenging approach which I came to respect and appreciate. You've only just begun. You own the MC session. *Direct* it. If *you* want to talk about his 'affair', talk about it. In doing so, with a good MC, you'll learn something about *yourself* in the process. Good luck this is very good and very thought provoking Great post Carhill!! Spark ((hug)) I have never been in your shoes and I pray that I never am (hug) You are an incredible woman from what I have read on this site. Your strength, your willingness to try again, your willingness to open your heart....you inspire me and impress me. For people who have been the cheaters to come to this thread and try to tell you that the OW was just oh-so important to your H and he just must be minimizing her to you to make you feel better and to comfort you is just incredulous to me. There are people here who are still in love with the MM and in my view would do anything to get back with that MM, so please bear that in mind. Some mistresses must minimize the wife/SO to make themselves seem that much more important, loved by the MM. That is really sad. I guess it is part of dealing with being dumped and being used..you have to cut down the one he stayed with in order to heal. That is just. For you Spark, this is a journey for you -- there is no set time limit on arriving at your destination. The journey to that destination could lead you down some very dark and scary roads and some beautiful scenic areas too. Keep that in mind as you travel. Don't rush along the way - stop and get out and look around you and marvel at what is around you. As you continue, you may get a flat tire and it could temporarily set you back, but soon enough, you will be headed on your way again. H and I went to MC when we first married - regarding dealing with being step parents and our different parenting styles. H thought the therapist was against him because she challenged him to do certain things. We didn't go that long, because honesty, neither of us were getting much out of it. I did IC for a bit, to learn how to deal with my stepdaughter and also how to not let my H's ex make me seethe with her entitlement attitude towards me/us. I can honestly say the MOST important thing *I* got out of MC/IC was when one of the therapists told me "Think about the situation that has you stressed -- how important is it? Will it be important 6 months from now? A year from now? 5 years from now? Based on that, then decide your next action". That was such an eye opening statement for me and helped me navigate the last 12 years. I am not a huge believer in going to therapy UNLESS you (general you) is willing to almost take charge and lead the therapist to what you want discussed. I wish you well on your journey and when you reach your destination, I hope you are healthy, happy, and full of joy and that the journey there made you stronger than when you left. ((hugs)) good luck!!
seren Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 In the first 6 months or so after D Day the whole melting pot of loss, anger, pain, more anger, hysterically bonding, working to reconcile, trying to understand why, getting H to feel safe to talk and not be afraid that I would cry, throw up, etc etc it felt like I was in a huge tornado. One day it would spin in, pick me up and just dump me in a place I was neither familiar with, chose to be or was comfortable being. I felt absolutely knackered. I so despaired of ever being me again, of trusting H, of us being US, of just feeling comfortable, of not wondering if I was good enough, if it was me. I so forgot joy and laughter, and I laugh, a lot. The flatness descended and I cried for what seems like months, for the loss of what I thought was the best marriage in the world, ever. I so loved that feeling of feeling safe, to be able to trust H with me. In between all the emotions, we had to try and rebuild our marriage, ourselves and do the dancing around each other for fear of hurting each other. It is just so exhausting, for those who have never been there, you simply cannot imagine how destructive it all is - not the A, that becomes just, you said, she said, he said etc. But the realisation that the man you thought had your back, didn't. To find out it could have been anyone is not, as many OP think, what many (me) BS want or need to hear. Had H said it was unavoidable, a meeting of minds, hell even great sex, it would have been far easier to process. But to find out it was just for ... whatever the hell it was for, it just so, so hurt. Hell, cheat on me for love or even lust or even monumental BJ's and I will hurt, but I will have a reason for destroying our trust, for hurting us. It got that I was just so bloody tired of the needing to talk, only to end up in tears and for H to be knocked back to feeling like crap that I realised that our precious time was being eaten into by the A. In fact, most times I would end up holding H while he cried and caught him self harming after he read my journal. It was damaging our M, H was losing self esteem and I was busy putting out the fires. So, he knows that when I need to talk, he has to listen, I don't expect answers, just him to listen, to hug me and for it then to be put back in the file marked, will always hurt, but not today. I am comfortable with that. I don't think people ever, ever get over A's they just work through them, sometimes it just takes longer to get out the otherside and sometimes it means changing course and taking a different route to get there than we thought . I know I waffle on, it might not make sense, but it works for us.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 26, 2010 Author Posted June 26, 2010 sorry, but this is a load of bull in my view. this sounds like it was written either by a cheater or an OW. not by a BS who loves their spouse and wants the marriage to work. Spark is NOT the type of woman who wants to continue to beat her husband over the head with "you had an affair, how could you" crap. She has no desire to wallow in the affair or never forgive him or make him do double time to make up for the hurt and disappointment HE caused by cheating. No one forced him to cheat. HE chose that route. To give him a free pass and imply Spark should be over it is nonsense. this is very good and very thought provoking Great post Carhill!! Spark ((hug)) I have never been in your shoes and I pray that I never am (hug) You are an incredible woman from what I have read on this site. Your strength, your willingness to try again, your willingness to open your heart....you inspire me and impress me. Thank you! I am fighting hard to heal me, heal us and lead the happiest and most authentic life we can. For people who have been the cheaters to come to this thread and try to tell you that the OW was just oh-so important to your H and he just must be minimizing her to you to make you feel better and to comfort you is just incredulous to me. There are people here who are still in love with the MM and in my view would do anything to get back with that MM, so please bear that in mind. Some mistresses must minimize the wife/SO to make themselves seem that much more important, loved by the MM. That is really sad. I guess it is part of dealing with being dumped and being used..you have to cut down the one he stayed with in order to heal. That is just. It's called denial and it IS an important survival tool. We cannot forget though, how much the OW/OM is lied? spun? to and the subsequent neccessity of believing those marital myths. For you Spark, this is a journey for you -- there is no set time limit on arriving at your destination. The journey to that destination could lead you down some very dark and scary roads and some beautiful scenic areas too. Keep that in mind as you travel. Don't rush along the way - stop and get out and look around you and marvel at what is around you. As you continue, you may get a flat tire and it could temporarily set you back, but soon enough, you will be headed on your way again. Beautifully posted! Life is for me, about the journey, not the destination. H and I went to MC when we first married - regarding dealing with being step parents and our different parenting styles. H thought the therapist was against him because she challenged him to do certain things. We didn't go that long, because honesty, neither of us were getting much out of it. I did IC for a bit, to learn how to deal with my stepdaughter and also how to not let my H's ex make me seethe with her entitlement attitude towards me/us. MC is all about the relationship; the marriage is the client, and since there are no perfect marriages, everyone takes a turn being challenged eventually! It does not have the level of comfort as IC does. I can honestly say the MOST important thing *I* got out of MC/IC was when one of the therapists told me "Think about the situation that has you stressed -- how important is it? Will it be important 6 months from now? A year from now? 5 years from now? Based on that, then decide your next action". That was such an eye opening statement for me and helped me navigate the last 12 years. I have learned that 90% of all marital arguments are unresolvable. Trying to convince your spouse of the rightness of your position is a kiss of death for a healthy relationship. How you accept the unsolvable determines the health of the relationship. Smart MC you had. I am not a huge believer in going to therapy UNLESS you (general you) is willing to almost take charge and lead the therapist to what you want discussed. I wish you well on your journey and when you reach your destination, I hope you are healthy, happy, and full of joy and that the journey there made you stronger than when you left. ((hugs)) good luck!! Like it or not, adversity always makes you stronger! Famous quote, not sure who said it: "Life without adversity is simply death in disguise."
Author Spark1111 Posted June 26, 2010 Author Posted June 26, 2010 sorry, but this is a load of bull in my view. this sounds like it was written either by a cheater or an OW. not by a BS who loves their spouse and wants the marriage to work. Spark is NOT the type of woman who wants to continue to beat her husband over the head with "you had an affair, how could you" crap. She has no desire to wallow in the affair or never forgive him or make him do double time to make up for the hurt and disappointment HE caused by cheating. No one forced him to cheat. HE chose that route. To give him a free pass and imply Spark should be over it is nonsense. this is very good and very thought provoking Great post Carhill!! Spark ((hug)) I have never been in your shoes and I pray that I never am (hug) You are an incredible woman from what I have read on this site. Your strength, your willingness to try again, your willingness to open your heart....you inspire me and impress me. Thank you! I am fighting hard to heal me, heal us and lead the happiest and most authentic life we can. For people who have been the cheaters to come to this thread and try to tell you that the OW was just oh-so important to your H and he just must be minimizing her to you to make you feel better and to comfort you is just incredulous to me. There are people here who are still in love with the MM and in my view would do anything to get back with that MM, so please bear that in mind. Some mistresses must minimize the wife/SO to make themselves seem that much more important, loved by the MM. That is really sad. I guess it is part of dealing with being dumped and being used..you have to cut down the one he stayed with in order to heal. That is just. It's called denial and it IS an important survival tool. We cannot forget though, how much the OW/OM is lied? spun? to and the subsequent neccessity of believing those marital myths. For you Spark, this is a journey for you -- there is no set time limit on arriving at your destination. The journey to that destination could lead you down some very dark and scary roads and some beautiful scenic areas too. Keep that in mind as you travel. Don't rush along the way - stop and get out and look around you and marvel at what is around you. As you continue, you may get a flat tire and it could temporarily set you back, but soon enough, you will be headed on your way again. Beautifully posted! Life is for me, about the journey, not the destination. H and I went to MC when we first married - regarding dealing with being step parents and our different parenting styles. H thought the therapist was against him because she challenged him to do certain things. We didn't go that long, because honesty, neither of us were getting much out of it. I did IC for a bit, to learn how to deal with my stepdaughter and also how to not let my H's ex make me seethe with her entitlement attitude towards me/us. MC is all about the relationship; the marriage is the client, and since there are no perfect marriages, everyone takes a turn being challenged eventually! It does not have the level of comfort as IC does. I can honestly say the MOST important thing *I* got out of MC/IC was when one of the therapists told me "Think about the situation that has you stressed -- how important is it? Will it be important 6 months from now? A year from now? 5 years from now? Based on that, then decide your next action". That was such an eye opening statement for me and helped me navigate the last 12 years. I have learned that 90% of all marital arguments are unresolvable. Trying to convince your spouse of the rightness of your position is a kiss of death for a healthy relationship. How you accept the unsolvable determines the health of the relationship. Smart MC you had. I am not a huge believer in going to therapy UNLESS you (general you) is willing to almost take charge and lead the therapist to what you want discussed. I wish you well on your journey and when you reach your destination, I hope you are healthy, happy, and full of joy and that the journey there made you stronger than when you left. ((hugs)) good luck!! Like it or not, adversity always makes you stronger! Famous quote, not sure who said it: "Life without adversity is simply death in disguise."
Author Spark1111 Posted June 26, 2010 Author Posted June 26, 2010 Ooops, sorry about the double post!
Author Spark1111 Posted June 26, 2010 Author Posted June 26, 2010 In the first 6 months or so after D Day the whole melting pot of loss, anger, pain, more anger, hysterically bonding, working to reconcile, trying to understand why, getting H to feel safe to talk and not be afraid that I would cry, throw up, etc etc it felt like I was in a huge tornado. One day it would spin in, pick me up and just dump me in a place I was neither familiar with, chose to be or was comfortable being. I felt absolutely knackered. I so despaired of ever being me again, of trusting H, of us being US, of just feeling comfortable, of not wondering if I was good enough, if it was me. I so forgot joy and laughter, and I laugh, a lot. The flatness descended and I cried for what seems like months, for the loss of what I thought was the best marriage in the world, ever. I so loved that feeling of feeling safe, to be able to trust H with me. In between all the emotions, we had to try and rebuild our marriage, ourselves and do the dancing around each other for fear of hurting each other. It is just so exhausting, for those who have never been there, you simply cannot imagine how destructive it all is - not the A, that becomes just, you said, she said, he said etc. But the realisation that the man you thought had your back, didn't. To find out it could have been anyone is not, as many OP think, what many (me) BS want or need to hear. Had H said it was unavoidable, a meeting of minds, hell even great sex, it would have been far easier to process. But to find out it was just for ... whatever the hell it was for, it just so, so hurt. Hell, cheat on me for love or even lust or even monumental BJ's and I will hurt, but I will have a reason for destroying our trust, for hurting us. It got that I was just so bloody tired of the needing to talk, only to end up in tears and for H to be knocked back to feeling like crap that I realised that our precious time was being eaten into by the A. In fact, most times I would end up holding H while he cried and caught him self harming after he read my journal. It was damaging our M, H was losing self esteem and I was busy putting out the fires. So, he knows that when I need to talk, he has to listen, I don't expect answers, just him to listen, to hug me and for it then to be put back in the file marked, will always hurt, but not today. I am comfortable with that. I don't think people ever, ever get over A's they just work through them, sometimes it just takes longer to get out the otherside and sometimes it means changing course and taking a different route to get there than we thought . I know I waffle on, it might not make sense, but it works for us. You are not waffling! Simply cleaning out the closet! We too do/did this dance of crying and sadness and turning off my feelings to protect him from his and then the cycle began again. I cannot describe how momumental the pain can be for both the BS and WS following an affair as they try to put the humpty-dumpty back together again. I intercepted undying words of love and romance and a planned future together via cell phone text on DDay, and my world and my assumptions of our marriage, and my assumptions of my built-in intuition were turned on its head. I thought, well, this is it. He has fallen in love with someone else, and that hurt less than realizing this man who always had my back, was always my best friend and made me feel safe had lied to my face every day for 1.5 years.And I never saw it happening. I felt my psyche cracking apart on that one, and in an effort to preserve my sanity and self, grew enraged and threw him out. Anger is one of best, galvanizing coping mechanisms there is...Then I would crumple in a puddle of tears (Anger's Inverse property is depression.) but resigned myself to the fact that he had fallen in love with someone else. So, what could I do? When I discovered it wasn't love, only a delusional pretend to it, to keep her adoration and attention flowing in his direction, I was stunned, shocked and disheartened to learn he had risked us, himself, our love, our history for what....? I couldn't comprehend the "what," and in researching, reading, learning, counseling, blogging, is why I now consider myself to have a PhD in affairology today. You are right. It would have been easier to accept he had fallen in love with someone else. That I could understand. Hell, I told him to go get her. But when he tried to explain it wasn't love, I grew more confused, a lot angrier, and respected him a lot less. Why? Because then I had to conclude that his actions were just monumentally, breathtakingly selfish and self-destructive. And that is taking longer for me to heal from.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 26, 2010 Author Posted June 26, 2010 a year or two may work for some people. Didn't for me - it was 4+. Like you said, it's hard to put a time on it - so why do you feel you should put a time on it for Spark? No one can know what it takes for someone else. She's really doing well IMO. Thank you! Again, I disagree. There are ALWAYS reasons. Maybe not a reason that is easily faced - and even if the WS is off in the head - well, why did THAT happen? What made them off in the head, and what can either be done or recognized about that condition so that if things start to go askew in the future it can be recognized and dealt with. This is what makes the BS feel safer, and we need safety to begin to trust again. And, of course, there is no 100% assurance of anything - but as probably any fBS would tell you - our goal isn't for 100% assurance of anything, it's for 100% effort. It also would have meant to me that he really didn't give a sh*t about how I was doing. See, there are no timetables to getting better. You get better when you get better. You sound is if a BS WANTS to feel bad - truly - we do not. I would rather have a lobotomy to wipe out this whole painful episode than to spend another minute in pain. Truly! We WANT to love and trust again. We want badly to be able to feel the way we did - but we cannot ever again pretend to feel some way, just because it makes our partner (who betrayed us) feel OK. Exactly! Though, at times, we will "backburner" our feelings to their pain, but hopefully, not for too long. We need to get to the point where we honestly from the bottom of our heart love and trust - that's not something that can be pushed or rushed. The WS should IMO be friggin' thankful that we are willing to put the amount of energy into it that it takes!! Gratitude that we are trying so hard for "us," when packing a bag and filing for divorce would have been so much easier does go along way towards helping BSs heal. So, by the time he was willing to admit that he had liked her and been attracted, he was also very embarrassed to admit he had liked her. In his opinion, that said something negative about him. He never would admit that he loved her - I don't know (nor care now) if he thought he did or not - I'm certain, though that she was convinced he loved her, whether that was totally through his actions/words, or through only her own desires I neither know nor care. When you have been betrayed, only total truth is productive in reparing, IMHO. So, when your spouse tries to minimize, omit, diminish anything regarding the truth, even the truth of their affair or feelings for their AP, you don't feel better; you actually feel worse in that the dishonest cowardly behavior is continuing.
silktricks Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 [When you have been betrayed, only total truth is productive in reparing, IMHO. So, when your spouse tries to minimize, omit, diminish anything regarding the truth, even the truth of their affair or feelings for their AP, you don't feel better; you actually feel worse in that the dishonest cowardly behavior is continuing. Exactly!!!
califnan Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 BS sees only the betrayal. WS may see only shame and Regret.. The affair was Not about the marriage - it was about the Individual.. At the time of the affair (escape), the A put the WS on a high that even magnified pre-existing problems in their life.. The shame and Regret of the affair seems to be minimized here.. It is normal that people wish to bury regrets - It doesn't mean they wish to hide the regret, but to not wish to dwell on the agitation of the incident and All that it entailed - in their Struggle to move forward.
carhill Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 In spite of acceptance and transparency within MC, I was, at the time, a bit incredulous at the seemingly indifferent attitude of stbx wrt my EA. It was only later, in MC, and gathering bits of information over the interceding three years, that I formed a better picture of the dynamic. A number of friends came forward after we were clearly separated to share their observations. Marriages, like everything else, are not always as they seem. Regardless, my choice was wrong and unhealthy and the experience of it and MC has taught me a lot. It also helped me end another long-lived, unhealthy attachment (the one which resulted in the EA) and freed me to now live out the rest of my life with greater understanding and peace. I hope the OP achieves similar benefits, or benefits of value to her.
silktricks Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 (edited) The shame and Regret of the affair seems to be minimized here.. It is normal that people wish to bury regrets - It doesn't mean they wish to hide the regret, but to not wish to dwell on the agitation of the incident and All that it entailed - in their Struggle to move forward. Do you mean in this thread, or on LS in general? I agree that those two emotions are minimized here. I think (personally) because MM/MW generally speaking do not get much "support" on LS unless they are pining for the OW/OM. If they are pining - they do not really experience regret for having the affair, only for ending it. The shame and regret that many WS have regarding the affair itself is not welcomed, and when BS speak of it, we are accused of accepting lies from our fWS, or that they "have no choice but to say something such as that". JMO Anyway, in some ways, I doubt my husband will ever fully forgive himself for the past. When he brings it up (as I never do anymore), I give him reason for why it happened, and remind him of the state we were in both together and individually. He then can let loose of some of his feelings of shame around his actions. Edited June 26, 2010 by silktricks
White Flower Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 I'm feeling this strongly now also! They are not setting time frame limits. They use to! ICs would TELL you that at a certain point you would know that you have gained all you could from them and it would be time to say good-bye; graduate from them to LEAVE counseling or to find another who could offer new insight. They do not do this anymore! Keeping the gravy train going, IMHO.True, it appears that firing a client for insufficient progress is no longer the standard. Money seems to matter more than progress for the patient now. That is why I tend to lean on friends...and LS.
Samantha0905 Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 100% effort, 100% of the time - no not possible . It's unrealistic. I don't think you get 100% effort, 100% of the time from any human being. None of us are perfect. - did you mean WS??? Otherwise, I'm not clear what you are talking about. If you mean WS - yes, there are things they must get over as well. As we all know, the problems were in the marriage - and no BS is ever all over innocent (regardless of how some people like to think of themselves). Unfortunately, though, the WS has pretty much driven a spike into the heart of things, so until the BS has healed at least a little, bringing up too much of their input into the disastrous state the marriage was in is probably not going to be very productive - and many will just think it is an attempt to shift blame. No, I meant the WS. I mean both have things to get over after an affair. Actually, all the parties involved including the XAP. Well - it depends, obviously. What would you need to say about someone who unrelentingly harassed your wife for about 2 years post affair, tried to hit her with her car, threw rocks and eggs at your vehicles, etc. Frankly, he didn't have to say a thing - and pretty much didn't. Her actions spoke volumes. Indeed! Sounds crazy. Yeah - we're great. It's been 6 years now and we're both over it. I think at times he worries when I get sad that it's about him, so I always try to let him know immediately what the cause of any "downness" is so he's not stressed. Great! I'm glad you two have worked through most of it. BS sees only the betrayal. WS may see only shame and Regret.. The affair was Not about the marriage - it was about the Individual.. At the time of the affair (escape), the A put the WS on a high that even magnified pre-existing problems in their life.. From personal experience, I think the WS definitely has shame and regret but that's not all they see. I can imagine the BS mostly sees the betrayal. Especially early on. I do agree about the high and I don't think the affair was the problem(s) in the marriage. I've said it before -- affairs are a very bad choice made when someone is (a) unhappy with their marriage, and (b) unhappy with themselves. The shame and Regret of the affair seems to be minimized here.. It is normal that people wish to bury regrets - It doesn't mean they wish to hide the regret, but to not wish to dwell on the agitation of the incident and All that it entailed - in their Struggle to move forward. I think on this particular site when a WS dare speaks of their regret they get a good amount of berating from unhappy people. Additionally, if they have any feelings whatsoever other than the regret they might as well have on full full Army combat gear. Do you mean in this thread, or on LS in general? I agree that those two emotions are minimized here. I think (personally) because MM/MW generally speaking do not get much "support" on LS unless they are pining for the OW/OM. If they are pining - they do not really experience regret for having the affair, only for ending it. Funny how we all see it from our own perspectives. I generally feel pining for the OW/OM gets the WS berated. Any mention of feelings for the XAP produces the same. I don't think someone can really assess someone's level of regret -- especially on an Internet site when they do not know the person at all. I have regret for my affair. I also miss my XAP at times. My counselor said I really miss the way my XAP made me feel -- but as we've discussed counselors -- I'd like to say I wonder how the heck he would know what I'm truly missing. It's kind of the same as someone here being presumptuous enough to assume whether or not someone else has "true" regret. Nonsense. The shame and regret that many WS have regarding the affair itself is not welcomed, and when BS speak of it, we are accused of accepting lies from our fWS, or that they "have no choice but to say something such as that". JMO That's certainly true. A lot of bristling goes on from both sides of the equation. Anyway, in some ways, I doubt my husband will ever fully forgive himself for the past. When he brings it up (as I never do anymore), I give him reason for why it happened, and remind him of the state we were in both together and individually. He then can let loose of some of his feelings of shame around his actions. I agree. It's difficult to completely forgive oneself for an affair. I think it may be even more difficult than it is for the BS to forgive. From a faith based standpoint, I remember reading in a devotional once we cannot do these things in our own power -- we have to turn them over to God. I think there's a lot of truth in that.
califnan Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 Do you mean in this thread, or on LS in general? . I was speaking to just this thread. My thoughts: With the shame and Regret of the relationship - the repentant spouse doesn't feel the A as important as the BW. Maybe a MC is beginning a general discussion to draw out problems .. but I think pre-existing problems were magnified (or made more existant) by the A.
califnan Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 I do agree about the high and I don't think the affair was the problem(s) in the marriage. I've said it before -- affairs are a very bad choice made when someone is (a) unhappy with their marriage, and (b) unhappy with themselves. --------------------- Samantha, are you saying that (a) and (b) are the only reasons for an affair?
califnan Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 I think on this particular site when a WS dare speaks of their regret they get a good amount of berating from unhappy people. Additionally, if they have any feelings whatsoever other than the regret they might as well have on full full Army combat gear. Funny how we all see it from our own perspectives. I generally feel pining for the OW/OM gets the WS berated. Any mention of feelings for the XAP produces the same. I don't think someone can really assess someone's level of regret -- especially on an Internet site when they do not know the person at all. I have regret for my affair. I also miss my XAP at times. My counselor said I really miss the way my XAP made me feel -- but as we've discussed counselors -- I'd like to say I wonder how the heck he would know what I'm truly missing. It's kind of the same as someone here being presumptuous enough to assume whether or not someone else has "true" regret. Nonsense. . ----------------------- I think most affairs within the M, are not pre-planned and just happen.. I wonder how many who fall into affairs, are romantics - and just in love with love, rather than the individual ..
Samantha0905 Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 I do agree about the high and I don't think the affair was the problem(s) in the marriage. I've said it before -- affairs are a very bad choice made when someone is (a) unhappy with their marriage, and (b) unhappy with themselves. --------------------- Samantha, are you saying that (a) and (b) are the only reasons for an affair? No, I'm sure there are others. For me those were primary reasons.
Samantha0905 Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 ----------------------- I think most affairs within the M, are not pre-planned and just happen.. I wonder how many who fall into affairs, are romantics - and just in love with love, rather than the individual .. I definitely did not pre-plan my affair. It sneaks up on you. Could be -- I know in my own case having only dated and slept with one person in my life, I felt like I had missed out a lot on self-discovery as time went on. I often have wished I had lived on my own for a while, developed myself more and dated other people before making the decision to choose someone for life. If wishes were horses.....
Samantha0905 Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 It's unrealistic. I don't think you get 100% effort, 100% of the time from any human being. None of us are perfect. No, I meant the WS. I mean both have things to get over after an affair. Actually, all the parties involved including the XAP. And I meant -- yes, I meant the WS. Sorry -- outpatient procedure this week -- minor surgery -- and I can't type.
Tayla Posted June 27, 2010 Posted June 27, 2010 To each there own in the process of healing...there is no time clock that says @ 2 :30 PM on such and such a date you will be at peace with this past issue. It doesnt work that way. I marveled at the comments as some were dead on in being objective and others were dead on in how the experience has affected them or in some cases Counseling has made them jaded. I wanted to share as objectively as possible. Some folks go into Therapy as the panacea of the *heres the problem*, You fix it counselor. The couple fixes it, the counselor is the light that makes each see the matters for what they are. Sparks, I must say you seem to be a direct and to the point person. Get to the meat of the matter, its your money, your time in counseling. When you described how in some ways you wanted the PINK ELEPHANT discussed that was in the room , the counselor nor your husband seemed to bring it up. You are correct that yes, there is the elephant..What the counselor did was remind you both that you have SUCH great skills as a couple and in order to deal with some of the sensitive issues, the counselor must remind you both of your strengths because in due time you will need to RELY on them to see you thru the ordeal. When I was in counseling I couldnt fathom why the counselor kept wanting to BUILD up the virtues and not talk about the Less then pleasant experiences. One thing as carhill mentioned is: The MC will have a game plan and it will take weeks of TRUST building to get to the meat of the matter. IT would take months after therepy was over to understand just how dern remarkable my therepist was !!! Its important to build character and positive attributes before going into dark places..... As a firm believer of you get out of therapy what you put in, the therapist isnt going to DO the leg work. As I am sure Sparks is aware of, and is sooo wanting to get the leg work started. OR at least that is my interpretation of the thread. One must live in the present to be able to deal with the past. Not vice versa
Author Spark1111 Posted June 28, 2010 Author Posted June 28, 2010 To each there own in the process of healing...there is no time clock that says @ 2 :30 PM on such and such a date you will be at peace with this past issue. It doesnt work that way. I marveled at the comments as some were dead on in being objective and others were dead on in how the experience has affected them or in some cases Counseling has made them jaded. I wanted to share as objectively as possible. Some folks go into Therapy as the panacea of the *heres the problem*, You fix it counselor. The couple fixes it, the counselor is the light that makes each see the matters for what they are. Sparks, I must say you seem to be a direct and to the point person. Get to the meat of the matter, its your money, your time in counseling. When you described how in some ways you wanted the PINK ELEPHANT discussed that was in the room , the counselor nor your husband seemed to bring it up. You are correct that yes, there is the elephant..What the counselor did was remind you both that you have SUCH great skills as a couple and in order to deal with some of the sensitive issues, the counselor must remind you both of your strengths because in due time you will need to RELY on them to see you thru the ordeal. When I was in counseling I couldnt fathom why the counselor kept wanting to BUILD up the virtues and not talk about the Less then pleasant experiences. One thing as carhill mentioned is: The MC will have a game plan and it will take weeks of TRUST building to get to the meat of the matter. IT would take months after therepy was over to understand just how dern remarkable my therepist was !!! Its important to build character and positive attributes before going into dark places..... As a firm believer of you get out of therapy what you put in, the therapist isnt going to DO the leg work. As I am sure Sparks is aware of, and is sooo wanting to get the leg work started. OR at least that is my interpretation of the thread. One must live in the present to be able to deal with the past. Not vice versa Good points, Tayla. I believe we do know what our strengths are, and yes, maybe he was trying to firmly establish that before we shined lights into the darker areas. Since counseling is expensive and time consuming, I would think laying out a concrete plan of action to the couple would be a postive thing, and it would have us returning for more if we were made aware of it in advance.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 28, 2010 Author Posted June 28, 2010 We walk in and my fWS says, we truly are not here to speak of the kids, the in-laws....We need to discuss and heal from the affair. MC: Well I need to know the stressors in your lives to help you. fWS: Okay, we can get to that at a later time. Mr. Sparks starts to talk about his depression, thinking no one loved or appreciated him, and that the draw was going someplace where he was wanted: To her and her child. There, he felt like a hero. Then he turns to me and says: "So, what do you want to know?" I profess to be stunned and caught off guard. It is the first time he has EVER willingly asked me that question, and I tell the counselor so. Hmmmm, okay: "After the ONS on the business trip, two weeks go by and she invites you to help her with her ADHD son. You tell me "it just got out of hand," at that point and that "I thought I could control it." "So, if you felt guilty as you claim and knew it was wrong, how did you give yourself permission to keep going back, over and over again?" He looks like a deer in the headlights. "Permission? I don't know what you mean by that?" MC interjects, and begins to speak of drug addicition physiology again, but I cut him off. "Look, that analogy gave me many wonderful insights that are useful, but here is where it ends: The addict's actions are self-destructive. He is not secretly sticking his needle into Spark and then his girlfriend. This is also destruction aimed at others unbeknownst to them! This is hurtful betrayal on so many levels, so while I understand the physiology of the addiction, there is a pathology at work here as well." I turn to Mr. Spark and ask him, "You thought I hated you? So why did you not leave me? Why did you stay and treat me so poorly? Why didn't you tell me you had developd feelings for another? We could have separated?" He replies: "I cared for her, but I knew she wasn't THE ONE. Something was off. I guess I still wanted both. It was breathtakingly selfish of me." Then he turns to the MC and asks, "Do you think I am bi-polar?" and the MC's eyes grow as big as plates and says "We can discuss that at a later time." MC says: "Spark needs to feel safe." (Amen) What I learned, and most of it VALIDATED my intuition: Halfway through, she began to pressure him as to where their relationship was going. He remained non-commital, but it is when he started confiding to his sister. She hated/still hates her xH for marrying his last AP. They now have a baby together and OW is SOOOOO bitter. Both OW and xH use their son destructively as a pawn between them. Mr. Sparks felt for that boy and tried so hard to be a positive role-model for him. (KISA) OW, assuming a future with H and assuming he would leave his loveless marriage, began to disparage me often in an attempt to convince him she would be a better choice. He swears he did not engage, and rather defended me. Today, he has extreme guilt that he was ever a part of these conversations at all. After DDAY, when I through him out, he lived with her for about two and a half weeks. (I knew this.) He said her drama which had been so appealing to him during the affair, as it gave him something to fix, rather than fixing himself, was off the charts. It was all day every day, and he saw a level of constant anger and drama that was way, way too much to deal with. It started to burst his perception of who he had thought she was: charming, smart, with many problems she fawned all over him in seeking his advice to fix. Hey, this was, for me, very, very productive!
carhill Posted June 28, 2010 Posted June 28, 2010 This suggestion assumes you wish to recover your marriage: I would think twice about sharing the *details* of MC sessions on an open forum. I've shared some, bits and pieces, but stbx and I are getting divorced and that process has been going on for over a year. If we were in recovery, I'd be loathe to share the details of the process with outsiders, the main reason to be respectful of her. Everyone's circumstances are different, as are viewpoints; obviously, I don't know your entire story. TBH, for reasons of privacy, I really don't want to. That's for you, H and your MC. Topically, think of this process as peeling an onion. Many layers. Lots of tears. Think of it as peeling that onion, a little at a time, for a year. That's a good start at recovery. I hope, where we failed, you succeed. Best wishes
White Flower Posted June 28, 2010 Posted June 28, 2010 We walk in and my fWS says, we truly are not here to speak of the kids, the in-laws....We need to discuss and heal from the affair. MC: Well I need to know the stressors in your lives to help you. fWS: Okay, we can get to that at a later time. Mr. Sparks starts to talk about his depression, thinking no one loved or appreciated him, and that the draw was going someplace where he was wanted: To her and her child. There, he felt like a hero. Then he turns to me and says: "So, what do you want to know?" I profess to be stunned and caught off guard. It is the first time he has EVER willingly asked me that question, and I tell the counselor so. Hmmmm, okay: "After the ONS on the business trip, two weeks go by and she invites you to help her with her ADHD son. You tell me "it just got out of hand," at that point and that "I thought I could control it." "So, if you felt guilty as you claim and knew it was wrong, how did you give yourself permission to keep going back, over and over again?" He looks like a deer in the headlights. "Permission? I don't know what you mean by that?" MC interjects, and begins to speak of drug addicition physiology again, but I cut him off. "Look, that analogy gave me many wonderful insights that are useful, but here is where it ends: The addict's actions are self-destructive. He is not secretly sticking his needle into Spark and then his girlfriend. This is also destruction aimed at others unbeknownst to them! This is hurtful betrayal on so many levels, so while I understand the physiology of the addiction, there is a pathology at work here as well." I turn to Mr. Spark and ask him, "You thought I hated you? So why did you not leave me? Why did you stay and treat me so poorly? Why didn't you tell me you had developd feelings for another? We could have separated?" He replies: "I cared for her, but I knew she wasn't THE ONE. Something was off. I guess I still wanted both. It was breathtakingly selfish of me." Then he turns to the MC and asks, "Do you think I am bi-polar?" and the MC's eyes grow as big as plates and says "We can discuss that at a later time." MC says: "Spark needs to feel safe." (Amen) What I learned, and most of it VALIDATED my intuition: Halfway through, she began to pressure him as to where their relationship was going. He remained non-commital, but it is when he started confiding to his sister. She hated/still hates her xH for marrying his last AP. They now have a baby together and OW is SOOOOO bitter. Both OW and xH use their son destructively as a pawn between them. Mr. Sparks felt for that boy and tried so hard to be a positive role-model for him. (KISA) OW, assuming a future with H and assuming he would leave his loveless marriage, began to disparage me often in an attempt to convince him she would be a better choice. He swears he did not engage, and rather defended me. Today, he has extreme guilt that he was ever a part of these conversations at all. After DDAY, when I through him out, he lived with her for about two and a half weeks. (I knew this.) He said her drama which had been so appealing to him during the affair, as it gave him something to fix, rather than fixing himself, was off the charts. It was all day every day, and he saw a level of constant anger and drama that was way, way too much to deal with. It started to burst his perception of who he had thought she was: charming, smart, with many problems she fawned all over him in seeking his advice to fix. Hey, this was, for me, very, very productive! The only problem I have with it is that the stress from the recent changes is normal. You are allowing him to blame her for being chaotic during an understandibly stressful time. You broke up, he moved out and he comes into her home bringing that stress with him, then they have their own stress to deal with and a child there who needs to adjust to it all. Two and a half weeks is hardley enough time to overcome those stressful feelings and settle down into a place of harmony. I don't see this as much of a victory. If he judged her personality based on those two and a half weeks, how does he judge the rest of the world? You?
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