Second MC session

[carhill]

What's the MC's *plan*? A competent MC has a marital infidelity recovery plan. Specific steps. Specific work. Guided challenge.

 

Our psychologist neutralized loaded language ('affair', infidelity', etc) by using, consistently, language of 'unhealthy', 'inappropriate', 'detrimental', wrt my EA and kept up the pressure on 'accepting' that reality and its effect on the M. Session after session, week after week. The effects could be seen here on LS in my discourse over time (back in 2008) with Owl, who had recovered his M from his W's A.

 

Along with that acceptance must come shared responsibility for the M. No M exists in a vacuum. Both partners own their role. A good MC looks at, challenges, and supports *both* perspectives and works to find a healthy middle ground. If such ground is untenable, as it was for us, a good MC will call an end to it, as ours did. 'There's nothing more that I can do for you. It's time to make a decision'. In retrospect, it was this proactive and challenging approach which I came to respect and appreciate.

 

You've only just begun. You own the MC session. *Direct* it. If *you* want to talk about his 'affair', talk about it. In doing so, with a good MC, you'll learn something about *yourself* in the process. Good luck

[Spark1111]

What's the MC's *plan*? A competent MC has a marital infidelity recovery plan. Specific steps. Specific work. Guided challenge.

 

Our psychologist neutralized loaded language ('affair', infidelity', etc) by using, consistently, language of 'unhealthy', 'inappropriate', 'detrimental', wrt my EA and kept up the pressure on 'accepting' that reality and its effect on the M. Session after session, week after week. The effects could be seen here on LS in my discourse over time (back in 2008) with Owl, who had recovered his M from his W's A.

 

Along with that acceptance must come shared responsibility for the M. No M exists in a vacuum. Both partners own their role. A good MC looks at, challenges, and supports *both* perspectives and works to find a healthy middle ground. If such ground is untenable, as it was for us, a good MC will call an end to it, as ours did. 'There's nothing more that I can do for you. It's time to make a decision'. In retrospect, it was this proactive and challenging approach which I came to respect and appreciate.

 

You've only just begun. You own the MC session. *Direct* it. If *you* want to talk about his 'affair', talk about it. In doing so, with a good MC, you'll learn something about *yourself* in the process. Good luck

 

Thanks Carhill! This is exactly the concrete steps I am looking for!

 

Jeez....got a phone number????:)

[Snowflower]

I have exhausted my inner resources, and having the natural fortitude that I am fortunate to posess, I feel at peace.

 

The remaining sticking points have to do with his inability to help MORE with my healing process. So truth be told? I thought MC would help him be more available for ME.

 

Okay, I think I misunderstood a little bit about what purpose you were hoping counseling would serve for you.

 

You are pretty much at peace with what happened in your marriage but your H wants to just forget about it.

 

I face a similar situation with my own H. He wants to forget that the A ever happened and I think men have more of ability to do this to an extent.

 

But where does this leave the BS and their feelings?

 

I think what I would do in your situation is tell my husband straight-up that his A and the residual feelings were going to be the topic of conversation during the next MC session. And then I would bring up the topic immediately once we were at the MC's office. After all, I/we would be the ones paying so we would get to to talk about our choice of subjects.

 

Just be direct and honest in what you need to discuss, Spark.

[carhill]

Jeez....got a phone number????

If you lived in my area, I'd give you his phone number. He's a clinical psychologist board certified to testify in abuse/rape/murder cases. Never took one note nor recorded one session and remembered details with complete clarity during the 14 month period we went to him.

 

The two critical factors to me were, beyond a steel trap mind, he was precisely intuitive in how far he could 'push' either of us before returning to a balanced point, and he was proactive, following his *plan* for marital recovery. It led to clear communication, acceptance, and, in the end, a mutual and healthy decision to divorce, amicably. It never would have happened IMO, especially the amicable part, without MC. Hope you have greater marital success or at least regain the health you seek.

[Snowflower]

 

But don't forget that you took him back. That should normally mean that you are willing to move on. Taking him back and then constantly annoying him with the affair, is a very double message you are sending.

 

Interesting POV.

 

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way for most BS. And it isn't that tidy either.

 

In a perfect world, the BS would just forgive and forget if they decided to take their WS back. But in reality, emotions are messy and the fallout from an affair can last for a long time.

[silktricks]

You are missing the point, Spark. You wallow in your pain. It is like a wound that you keep scratching open every time it is about to heal. You keep starting topics, you keep telling what a mistake your H made, what a bad person the AP is. And you delude yourself that if your H will crawl through the dust for you, you won't feel that pain anymore. That is not true because it will never be enough for you. The reason why is that your focusing on the pain because that way you don't have to move forward. It is up to you to find out why you don't want to move forward.

 

I think that focusing on the A puts you in a strong position because your H remains the bad guy. But don't forget that you took him back. That should normally mean that you are willing to move on. Taking him back and then constantly annoying him with the affair, is a very double message you are sending.

 

This is so not true. I don't know your history, WITP, but I don't believe you've recovered from an affair as a BS, or if you have you are quite different from me (and I believe from Spark as well.)

 

It's not a matter of being in a strong position, or of the H being the bad guy, it's a matter of having the affair not be a forbidden subject - because that gives it strength. If someone (or somebody) means nothing to me, than it is easy for me to talk about it. It's when it has meaning and importance that it is difficult. When my guilt is huge I will become defensive - when someone is important I will hide.

 

I went through something very close to what it sounds like Spark is in. I needed to sometimes have my husband be willing to bring up the past - as a non-consequential kinda crappy thing that happened. Then I would know it was in the past - not the present - no significance - no anger - no guilt - no nothing, just something bad that happened, and is over. When he'd get all stressed and anxious, then I'd get scared - like "wait a minute, I thought this was over...."

 

Spark - I get it. It took my husband a long time to get it, though, and I count myself lucky that he ever did - in all honesty, had our positions been reversed, I don't know that I ever would have.

[carhill]

If, for the OP, her H's affair is 'over', he and she can 'agree' to talk about the affair only within MC. 'Get it out', the feelings, the *stuff*, within MC. Outside, it's moving forward, improving the M. It takes focused work. It's not 'easy'. Not having walked that path, with the affair continuing while in MC, I see the value in it now, the increased efficacy potential of MC after the affair is 'over' and, obviously, prior to it starting. Life lessons

[silktricks]

If, for the OP, her H's affair is 'over', he and she can 'agree' to talk about the affair only within MC. 'Get it out', the feelings, the *stuff*, within MC. Outside, it's moving forward, improving the M. It takes focused work. It's not 'easy'. Not having walked that path, with the affair continuing while in MC, I see the value in it now, the increased efficacy potential of MC after the affair is 'over' and, obviously, prior to it starting. Life lessons

 

Though I can see the value of this - I've got to admit, it would not have worked for me. I'm not good at "saving up" to talk about it later. When something (bad) comes up in my mind, it pretty much needs to come out my mouth, otherwise it festers , and tends to get blown out of proportion...

 

but that's me.

[carhill]

Exactly, me too. Common complaint by stbx was 'you talk too much' and she didn't understand my 'emotional outbursts' (her term), though I felt I was just sharing the moment. MC taught me how to control and focus those aspects of my personality. Even though we're divorcing, and it's been a lengthly process, I use those tools today when dealing with her and *feel* better about it. YMMV.

[silktricks]

I'll bite: What's YMMV???

[carhill]

Old internet acronym: Your mileage may vary = your experience may differ.

[Samantha0905]

I'm reading all this and it's making me think about so many things.

 

I empathize with you Spark -- as much as I can because as far as I know, my husband hasn't been unfaithful -- and I totally get why you want to be able to move forward and put everything behind you. The problem which exists is there is no way at all -- ever -- to completely move on because it did happen. It's not like you're going to forget that and you're still very angry about it. I get that. You want to come to some kind of understanding and place of reconciliation with everything that has gone on and move on happy in your marriage.

 

The thing is your husband can't take it back. It happened. He can explain to you why he did what he did to the best of his abilities, but doing so over and over and over isn't going to resolve anything.

 

It happened. It was an egregious violation of the vows you two took.

 

If you want to move on, eventually you have to move on. If you want to hold onto the bad that happened and hold it over his head or make him come up with some valid reason for the egregious violation it isn't going to happen. What can he say at this point? He f'd up He was wrong. There is no valid reason.

 

I'm not minimizing your feelings but if you are going to make the decision to continue in your marriage and want it to be happy then eventually you have to move forward.

 

I agree with WITP. And silktricks, I know you think the affair being a forbidden subject gives it strength -- I can get your logic in that -- but in the same vein, why in the world would a person want to continue to talk about a past even they are trying to move beyond? I understand initially, but after a while to move forward one has to actually move forward.

 

It's interesting there is a need for the WS to minimize the XAP in order to make the BS feel better. It seems it would feel better to the BS for the WS to maximize the BS and totally not discuss the XAP at all after a certain point. Besides, is it realistic to think the WS had no feelings or insignificant feelings for the XAP? The feelings were strong enough to risk the marriage. If they decide to work on their marriage, obviously they chose to walk away from the XAP. That says something, but it's unrealistic to think there were no real feelings there and there's not much purpose in dwelling on that.

 

As for MC's, they can only do so much. In this situation I think IC may be best to work through the anger issues. It may be that you -- Spark -- should not continue in your marriage. Maybe it's something you can't get over. That's not a bad thing. It just is what it is.

 

And out of curiosity, how long has it been since the discovery of the affair? I think everyone needs some time -- and each of us varies -- but eventually if we're going to move on, we move forward.....

[silktricks]

The thing is your husband can't take it back. It happened. He can explain to you why he did what he did to the best of his abilities, but doing so over and over and over isn't going to resolve anything.

 

It happened. It was an egregious violation of the vows you two took.

Sorry, but you are wrong. It does resolve things. In order to heal, you (I really mean me, of course ) have to be able to get to the point where you can talk about it - just talk - not yell, not cry, not wish, not berate, not anything but talk. All kinds of terrible things happen, all the time. An affair is just one of those things.

 

In some cultures, when a person dies they are never mentioned again - ever. That isn't our culture, though. We talk about people who have been in our lives. I talk about people I love, people I hate, people in general. That's how I (personally) get by things and get over pain. That's what IC is often about - talking about our past pain to get it out. It really does resolve things - weirdly enough.

 

If you want to move on, eventually you have to move on. If you want to hold onto the bad that happened and hold it over his head or make him come up with some valid reason for the egregious violation it isn't going to happen. What can he say at this point? He f'd up He was wrong. There is no valid reason.

I really do not believe in the slightest that this is what Spark is doing. I know it's not what I was doing when I went round and round and round and then around some more of what happened and why. If you don't figure out what happened, then how on earth are you going to make sure it doesn't happen again? How will you know when you (or he) are in dangerous territory? How will you ever again feel safe if you can't figure out everything that made the situation what it was?

 

I agree with WITP. And silktricks, I know you think the affair being a forbidden subject gives it strength -- I can get your logic in that -- but in the same vein, why in the world would a person want to continue to talk about a past even they are trying to move beyond? I understand initially, but after a while to move forward one has to actually move forward.

Because it's there - like the mountain. It's a part of what made the two of you who you are now. To pretend that it didn't happen doesn't make it go away. It's part of you now. To make it a forbidden subject doesn't do anything except make the BS crazy. If you really want to make the marriage fold - there's no better way.

 

It's interesting there is a need for the WS to minimize the XAP in order to make the BS feel better.

This is utter BS (and I don't mean Betrayed Spouse). MY WS never minimized her to make ME feel better, he minimized her to make HIM feel better.

 

The feelings were strong enough to risk the marriage. If they decide to work on their marriage, obviously they chose to walk away from the XAP. That says something, but it's unrealistic to think there were no real feelings there and there's not much purpose in dwelling on that.

That's saying something - when it's true - but I'm not sure that it's a valid assumption. There are a lot of reasons for having an affair, sometimes the root cause doesn't have all that much to do with the AP.

 

The one thing my husband said about a million times was that it wasn't her, and it could have been anyone. It was him. For a long time it was hard for me to wrap my head around this. Then the light went on for me that he was telling the truth . She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and he was messed up. It could have been anyone.

Edited June 25, 2010 by silktricks

[Spark1111]

I'm reading all this and it's making me think about so many things.

 

I empathize with you Spark -- as much as I can because as far as I know, my husband hasn't been unfaithful -- and I totally get why you want to be able to move forward and put everything behind you. The problem which exists is there is no way at all -- ever -- to completely move on because it did happen. It's not like you're going to forget that and you're still very angry about it. I get that. You want to come to some kind of understanding and place of reconciliation with everything that has gone on and move on happy in your marriage.

 

Not angry, not for a very long time. Once in awhile sad, but not too often anymore.

 

The thing is your husband can't take it back. It happened. He can explain to you why he did what he did to the best of his abilities, but doing so over and over and over isn't going to resolve anything.

 

Oh, you'd be amazed. Go over it again and again.....helps him as much as me; some new facet or feeling emerges and we come to a place of greater understanding.

 

It happened. It was an egregious violation of the vows you two took.

 

If you want to move on, eventually you have to move on. If you want to hold onto the bad that happened and hold it over his head or make him come up with some valid reason for the egregious violation it isn't going to happen. What can he say at this point? He f'd up He was wrong. There is no valid reason.

 

On this we disagree: In examining the valid reasons that led to it, we are ensuring it will not happen again. I f'd up, was wrong is like the one dimentional thinking that got us into this mess. I was unhappy; you did not make me happy; I will find happiness elsewhere. There is no "we" in any of those statements. We are not going there ever again.

 

I'm not minimizing your feelings but if you are going to make the decision to continue in your marriage and want it to be happy then eventually you have to move forward.

 

I am so far forward, HE needs to catch up. I am trying to help him get there.

 

I agree with WITP. And silktricks, I know you think the affair being a forbidden subject gives it strength -- I can get your logic in that -- but in the same vein, why in the world would a person want to continue to talk about a past even they are trying to move beyond? I understand initially, but after a while to move forward one has to actually move forward.

 

To move forward, one has to examine there actions without guilt or shame. One needs to understand oneself and own it to heal from it. That is what I am trying to help him do.

 

It's interesting there is a need for the WS to minimize the XAP in order to make the BS feel better.

Not to me, though he tried. I didn't buy it.

 

It seems it would feel better to the BS for the WS to maximize the BS and totally not discuss the XAP at all after a certain point. Besides, is it realistic to think the WS had no feelings or insignificant feelings for the XAP? The feelings were strong enough to risk the marriage. If they decide to work on their marriage, obviously they chose to walk away from the XAP. That says something, but it's unrealistic to think there were no real feelings there and there's not much purpose in dwelling on that.

 

Maybe a less secure woman needs that. Not me. We've been best friends....he can tell me anything, even about his OW. I need him to trust us enough to do so.

 

As for MC's, they can only do so much. In this situation I think IC may be best to work through the anger issues. It may be that you -- Spark -- should not continue in your marriage. Maybe it's something you can't get over. That's not a bad thing. It just is what it is.

 

Love the man. Not leaving the marriage. Want him to be a whole participant in the healing, mostly his own at this point, but yes, mine too.

 

And out of curiosity, how long has it been since the discovery of the affair? I think everyone needs some time -- and each of us varies -- but eventually if we're going to move on, we move forward.....

 

2.5 years, NC. Lots of omissions and trickle-truthing out of shame.

We need to get rid of the shame and move on.

[Spark1111]

Sorry, but you are wrong. It does resolve things. In order to heal, you (I really mean me, of course ) have to be able to get to the point where you can talk about it - just talk - not yell, not cry, not wish, not berate, not anything but talk. All kinds of terrible things happen, all the time. An affair is just one of those things.

 

In some cultures, when a person dies they are never mentioned again - ever. That isn't our culture, though. We talk about people who have been in our lives. I talk about people I love, people I hate, people in general. That's how I (personally) get by things and get over pain. That's what IC is often about - talking about our past pain to get it out. It really does resolve things - weirdly enough.

 

I really do not believe in the slightest that this is what Spark is doing. I know it's not what I was doing when I went round and round and round and then around some more of what happened and why. If you don't figure out what happened, then how on earth are you going to make sure it doesn't happen again? How will you know when you (or he) are in dangerous territory? How will you ever again feel safe if you can't figure out everything that made the situation what it was?

 

Because it's there - like the mountain. It's a part of what made the two of you who you are now. To pretend that it didn't happen doesn't make it go away. It's part of you now. To make it a forbidden subject doesn't do anything except make the BS crazy. If you really want to make the marriage fold - there's no better way.

 

This is utter BS (and I don't mean Betrayed Spouse). MY WS never minimized her to make ME feel better, he minimized her to make HIM feel better.

 

That's saying something - when it's true - but I'm not sure that it's a valid assumption. There are a lot of reasons for having an affair, sometimes the root cause doesn't have all that much to do with the AP.

 

The one thing my husband said about a million times was that it wasn't her, and it could have been anyone. It was him. For a long time it was hard for me to wrap my head around this. Then the light went on for me that he was telling the truth . She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and he was messed up. It could have been anyone.

 

Silk, once again a great, great post! Very wise, especially minimizing the AP to make themselves feel better! So true!

 

And rehashing to ensure it never happens again!

[Snowflower]

The thing is your husband can't take it back. It happened. He can explain to you why he did what he did to the best of his abilities, but doing so over and over and over isn't going to resolve anything.

 

 

 

Samantha, it's good to see you on LS. I know you have directed your post at Spark but I would like to chime in. I really appreciate your post here because it offers a different POV from a WS. I don't agree with all of it, of course, but this is how I learn and maybe some of what you post is true from my WS, POV. Only he can't articulate it as well.

 

I'm in a somewhat similar place as Spark where my H doesn't like to talk about the A at all.

If you want to move on, eventually you have to move on. If you want to hold onto the bad that happened and hold it over his head or make him come up with some valid reason for the egregious violation it isn't going to happen. What can he say at this point? He f'd up He was wrong. There is no valid reason.

 

But this is what many WS don't understand...just because the BS wants/needs to talk about the A doesn't mean we are holding it over the WS head or trying to repeatedly make the WS feel like crap.

 

Why does the BS need to talk about the A, months, even years later? Because we are still trying to heal, to understand, to draw closer to our WS, to make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

Talking about the A is not a form of punishment and I wish I could understand why so many WS think it is.

 

 

I'm not minimizing your feelings but if you are going to make the decision to continue in your marriage and want it to be happy then eventually you have to move forward.

 

I agree with WITP. And silktricks, I know you think the affair being a forbidden subject gives it strength -- I can get your logic in that -- but in the same vein, why in the world would a person want to continue to talk about a past even they are trying to move beyond? I understand initially, but after a while to move forward one has to actually move forward.

 

More of the 'get over it already' mentality that Spark is trying to avoid.

 

I can almost understand that the BS's need to talk about what happened appears that they are refusing to move on but that simply isn't true.

 

From my own situation, my H and I rarely talk about his A these days...and we are not as far along as Spark and Mr. Spark. It's an uncomfortable topic for both my husband and I and he would love to just avoid it.

 

My H was the classic conflict-avoider...I never realized how strong this trait was in him until the A. He has worked hard to improve in this area but it is still there--old habits die hard. So, his tendency is to avoid difficult topics-like the A. I have to work with him to talk about it when I feel the need.

 

I totally get where Spark is coming from.

It's interesting there is a need for the WS to minimize the XAP in order to make the BS feel better. It seems it would feel better to the BS for the WS to maximize the BS and totally not discuss the XAP at all after a certain point. Besides, is it realistic to think the WS had no feelings or insignificant feelings for the XAP? The feelings were strong enough to risk the marriage. If they decide to work on their marriage, obviously they chose to walk away from the XAP. That says something, but it's unrealistic to think there were no real feelings there and there's not much purpose in dwelling on that.

 

Okay, I have to respectfully disagree with you here, Sam. Why does it always have to fall back to the WS feelings for the AP? No where in this thread was this mentioned. Spark doesn't mention it either.

 

FTR, my husband never minimized the OW. She did some things during the course of the A that he didn't like and he told me about them. But he never said foul things about her.

 

He also said it was not about her, it was about him and to some extent, about our marriage.

 

Please, in reconciliation, it is not all about the xAP so I don't know why this was mentioned. In fact, in healthy reconciliations it is almost not about the xAP at all. It is about the married spouses and their marriage.

[silktricks]

FTR, my husband never minimized the OW. She did some things during the course of the A that he didn't like and he told me about them. But he never said foul things about her.

Just a point - minimization doesn't necessarily mean "foul" - it more means "she wasn't anything" "I never loved her/never cared about her, etc"

 

He also said it was not about her, it was about him and to some extent, about our marriage.

 

Please, in reconciliation, it is not all about the xAP so I don't know why this was mentioned. In fact, in healthy reconciliations it is almost not about the xAP at all. It is about the married spouses and their marriage.

This is oh so true - the AP really doesn't enter into it. It's about fixing the marriage, which she isn't part of.

 

One more thing I'd like to add... most times, as Spark has said, a person who cheats is a conflict avoider. I used to be one as well. To fix our marriage, one of us had to be willing to have conflict. One of us had to be willing to take the bull by the horns and make change - even if the change was painful. That person - at that time - had to be me. If I had allowed him to continue with avoidance, then we would never have really fixed the problem(s) that led to the affair in the first place. (Now at times I could use a little more avoidance... )

[Snowflower]

Just a point - minimization doesn't necessarily mean "foul" - it more means "she wasn't anything" "I never loved her/never cared about her, etc"

 

 

So true! I used a a poor choice of words when trying to convey my meaning.

[Brokenlady]

Spark,

Does he appear motivated to resolve the guilt and shame? If he's motivated, he may be better off in IC to work on his issues.

 

From someone who knows it well, it seems like maybe you're trying to fix him. And that if he gets fixed, he'll finally meet your relationship needs. I totally get that. But you can't do it for him. Are you happy "enough" with things exactly as they are to stay in the marriage? I think it's largely a matter of seeing and embracing the situation as it is and deciding if you can live with it, rather than trying to change him (even if it is for his own good).

[Samantha0905]

Sorry, but you are wrong. It does resolve things. In order to heal, you (I really mean me, of course ) have to be able to get to the point where you can talk about it - just talk - not yell, not cry, not wish, not berate, not anything but talk. All kinds of terrible things happen, all the time. An affair is just one of those things.

 

In some cultures, when a person dies they are never mentioned again - ever. That isn't our culture, though. We talk about people who have been in our lives. I talk about people I love, people I hate, people in general. That's how I (personally) get by things and get over pain. That's what IC is often about - talking about our past pain to get it out. It really does resolve things - weirdly enough.

 

I don't mean not talking about it at all ever. I imagine it takes a while to move forward. I simply meant after a while and it's hard to put a time on it -- but let's say maybe a year to two -- eventually it needs to be left behind in order for things to move forward productively.

 

I really do not believe in the slightest that this is what Spark is doing. I know it's not what I was doing when I went round and round and round and then around some more of what happened and why. If you don't figure out what happened, then how on earth are you going to make sure it doesn't happen again? How will you know when you (or he) are in dangerous territory? How will you ever again feel safe if you can't figure out everything that made the situation what it was?

I get that, but sometimes there isn't a solid reason. As you say later in this post, sometimes the WS is just off in the head a tad at the moment. I understand making sure it doesn't happen again, but there can be no 100% reassurance of that in my opinion.

 

Because it's there - like the mountain. It's a part of what made the two of you who you are now. To pretend that it didn't happen doesn't make it go away. It's part of you now. To make it a forbidden subject doesn't do anything except make the BS crazy. If you really want to make the marriage fold - there's no better way.

I didn't say completely pretend it didn't happen.

 

This is utter BS (and I don't mean Betrayed Spouse). MY WS never minimized her to make ME feel better, he minimized her to make HIM feel better.

I can see that happening also and believe you when you say it did. I think sometimes also, however, the BS WANTS to hear her WS minimize the XAP.

 

That's saying something - when it's true - but I'm not sure that it's a valid assumption. There are a lot of reasons for having an affair, sometimes the root cause doesn't have all that much to do with the AP.

I'm sure that's true also. Many times I imagine the WS does have strong feelings for the XAP also -- regardless of the reason for straying.

 

The one thing my husband said about a million times was that it wasn't her, and it could have been anyone. It was him. For a long time it was hard for me to wrap my head around this. Then the light went on for me that he was telling the truth . She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and he was messed up. It could have been anyone.

Well, it was problems with him -- but also, what WOULD he say to you at that point? I'm not saying that to be smartass, but there's not much a WS can say to their BS. It could have been almost anyone that married him in life. We could all be in different places at different times and have totally different lives.

[silktricks]

I don't mean not talking about it at all ever. I imagine it takes a while to move forward. I simply meant after a while and it's hard to put a time on it -- but let's say maybe a year to two -- eventually it needs to be left behind in order for things to move forward productively.

a year or two may work for some people. Didn't for me - it was 4+. Like you said, it's hard to put a time on it - so why do you feel you should put a time on it for Spark? No one can know what it takes for someone else. She's really doing well IMO.

 

I get that, but sometimes there isn't a solid reason. As you say later in this post, sometimes the WS is just off in the head a tad at the moment. I understand making sure it doesn't happen again, but there can be no 100% reassurance of that in my opinion.

Again, I disagree. There are ALWAYS reasons. Maybe not a reason that is easily faced - and even if the WS is off in the head - well, why did THAT happen? What made them off in the head, and what can either be done or recognized about that condition so that if things start to go askew in the future it can be recognized and dealt with. And, of course, there is no 100% assurance of anything - but as probably any fBS would tell you - our goal isn't for 100% assurance of anything, it's for 100% effort.

 

I didn't say completely pretend it didn't happen.

No, of course, you didn't. But had my husband said something similar to what you said

why in the world would a person want to continue to talk about a past even they are trying to move beyond? I understand initially, but after a while to move forward one has to actually move forward.

that would have meant to me that he was no longer willing to deal with me about my pain and fear. Which would have in turn meant to me that I was either to A. pretend it didn't happen or B. leave him. I would have chosen B., as A would not have been an option. It also would have meant to me that he really didn't give a sh*t about how I was doing. See, there are no timetables to getting better. You get better when you get better. You sound is if a BS WANTS to feel bad - truly - we do not. We WANT to love and trust again. We want badly to be able to feel the way we did - but we cannot ever again pretend to feel some way, just because it makes our partner (who betrayed us) feel OK. We need to get to the point where we honestly from the bottom of our heart love and trust - that's not something that can be pushed or rushed. The WS should IMO be friggin' thankful that we are willing to put the amount of energy into it that it takes!!

 

I can see that happening also and believe you when you say it did. I think sometimes also, however, the BS WANTS to hear her WS minimize the XAP.

well, it probably varies by person. I can tell you, though, that until my H actually admitted that he had been attracted to her and liked her (which took a LONG time for him to do) I wasn't able to move ahead at all - I just kept coming up against this brick wall (A+B was supposed to equal C, but he's telling me it really equals A-B - doesn't compute....). By that time, though, he had come to realize a lot of very negative things about her. So, by the time he was willing to admit that he had liked her and been attracted, he was also very embarrassed to admit he had liked her. In his opinion, that said something negative about him. He never would admit that he loved her - I don't know (nor care now) if he thought he did or not - I'm certain, though that she was convinced he loved her, whether that was totally through his actions/words, or through only her own desires I neither know nor care.

 

I'm sure that's true also. Many times I imagine the WS does have strong feelings for the XAP also -- regardless of the reason for straying.

I'm sure that's true.

 

Well, it was problems with him -- but also, what WOULD he say to you at that point? I'm not saying that to be smartass, but there's not much a WS can say to their BS. It could have been almost anyone that married him in life. We could all be in different places at different times and have totally different lives.

Well, I pretty much feel that no matter what I say, you'll just come back with something similar again, apparently because what I say doesn't mesh for you, and that's OK. You aren't me. You aren't my husband, and I am not yours. What I speak of here doesn't mean anything universally, but it does reflect my life and my experiences. Also, I have found that many BS who have recovered marriages seem to have experienced similar emotions and similar processes.

 

I'm not going to go into much about the root causes of the affair, because it is information about him - which I have no right to divulge even anonymously - but what he said was the truth. It took him many years to come to full realization of why he did what he did - and he took me through it with him. I have no doubt of his honesty on the subject, and have no need to defend that honesty, nor my belief in it, either.

Edited June 25, 2010 by silktricks
clarity

[Samantha0905]

a year or two may work for some people. Didn't for me - it was 4+. Like you said, it's hard to put a time on it - so why do you feel you should put a time on it for Spark? No one can know what it takes for someone else. She's really doing well IMO.

 

I'm not putting a time frame on it for Spark. It wasn't personal. I'm just saying eventually one has to move forward. As I said, it sounds like more IC is needed because the MC doesn't appear to be very productive from what I'm reading here.

 

I just thought my counselor was decent and I don't think my spouse has been seeing his -- both IC -- so it's interesting to find so much dissatisfaction with counselors here. Maybe too much is expected?

 

but as probably any fBS would tell you - our goal isn't for 100% assurance of anything, it's for 100% effort.

 

Even that is impossible to get 100% of the time.

 

See, there are no timetables to getting better. You get better when you get better. You sound is if a BS WANTS to feel bad - truly - we do not. We WANT to love and trust again. We want badly to be able to feel the way we did - but we cannot ever again pretend to feel some way, just because it makes our partner (who betrayed us) feel OK. We need to get to the point where we honestly from the bottom of our heart love and trust - that's not something that can be pushed or rushed. The WS should IMO be friggin' thankful that we are willing to put the amount of energy into it that it takes!!

 

Hmmmm. There are a lot of things the BS has to get over also. I'm not comparing the two -- I'm just saying. It sure seems like a rough row to hoe and for those who go down it, I wish them well!

 

well, it probably varies by person. I can tell you, though, that until my H actually admitted that he had been attracted to her and liked her (which took a LONG time for him to do) I wasn't able to move ahead at all - I just kept coming up against this brick wall (A+B was supposed to equal C, but he's telling me it really equals A-B - doesn't compute....). By that time, though, he had come to realize a lot of very negative things about her.

 

That's my point. A lot of WS would convince themselves of something negative about the other person to attempt to make their BS feel better and to appease their own consciences.

 

So, by the time he was willing to admit that he had liked her and been attracted, he was also very embarrassed to admit he had liked her.

 

I hope he was equally embarrassed about his own actions. I just don't buy all of that from most people. It's coming to terms with his own actions by demonizing another person he chose to have a sexual/emotional relationship with while in his marriage. His reasons? Beats me. Each situation is different, but I still think a WS wouldn't have much option but to go in this direction as far as explanations to his BS go if he wanted to save the marriage.

 

In his opinion, that said something negative about him.

 

That's a safe thing for him to say given the situation, no?

 

I mean, in my opinion, it's disrespectful to one's spouse/marriage to have an affair -- obviously. It's just a continuation of the same type of behavior (disrespect, lack of integrity, etc.) if in the coming back home phase the WS does the same to their XAP.

 

He never would admit that he loved her - I don't know (nor care now) if he thought he did or not - I'm certain, though that she was convinced he loved her, whether that was totally through his actions/words, or through only her own desires I neither know nor care.

 

It really isn't productive for him to admit that to you anyway.

 

Well, I pretty much feel that no matter what I say, you'll just come back with something similar again, apparently because what I say doesn't mesh for you, and that's OK. You aren't me. You aren't my husband, and I am not yours. What I speak of here doesn't mean anything universally, but it does reflect my life and my experiences. Also, I have found that many BS who have recovered marriages seem to have experienced similar emotions and similar processes.

 

I know. I'm not trying to be argumentative -- just having a discussion and sharing my thoughts.

 

I'm not going to go into much about the root causes of the affair, because it is information about him - which I have no right to divulge even anonymously - but what he said was the truth. It took him many years to come to full realization of why he did what he did - and he took me through it with him. I have no doubt of his honesty on the subject, and have no need to defend that honesty, nor my belief in it, either.

 

Nor should you. I didn't mean to imply I know what your husband in particular feels or thinks or anyone else. I'm just speculating as to what may be behind some of the things some WS say when trying to get back in the good graces of the BS. I'm sure it's very true that some DO feel they have made a terrible mistake and wish they had never met their XAP.

 

Since you say it took 4+ for you, is all better -- for the most part anyway -- now?

 

Sorry it took me a minute or two to reply. My daughter came to visit from out of town.

 

I realize I'm getting of track somewhat here anyway -- not intending to TJ.

[Samantha0905]

2.5 years, NC. Lots of omissions and trickle-truthing out of shame.

We need to get rid of the shame and move on.

 

Thanks for responding and I do agree. I'm glad you love him and haven't felt a need for him to demonize his XAP. I honestly think people (WS) just majorly mess things up sometimes and do things they can't take back. I hope the two of you are able to make your way through it all and end up in a better place than you were even before the affair.

[Dexter Morgan]

Okay....we each had two individual sessions, due to illness, and then reunited for the fourth session...

 

I had vowed to SHUT UP AND LISTEN SPARK and did so.....

 

My fWS speaks of our adult children and the stress they still bring to our lives as they struggle to gain financial independence from us (TRUE!)

 

He then speaks of my elderly mother who adds a lot of stress to our lives as she grows more confused and forgetful (True!)

 

We discuss some of our current financial constraints and how we intend to over come them.

 

We both express how weary we grow of all this responsibility and would simply love to run away with each other. Everyone laughs.

 

The counselor turns to us and says: "Wow! Look at how well you did today. There is nothing of the resentment and anger of the first week."

 

I think, "Is this guy smoking crack?" and grow a little short.

 

 

absolutely. This is why I think MC is a joke. therapists, in MC anyway, are nothing but bulls##t artists that are not suppose to point fingers or place blame.

 

looks like all that was discussed was the financial stress. ok, is that suppose to excuse his behavior? and you had the same stress....why didn't you cheat? I thought MC was suppose to get to the bottom of "causes". Looks like all of that completely went over your therapists head.

 

 

I say, "Spark and Sparkspouse are fine, no, better than fine on all but one topic, which is why I THOUGHT WE WERE HERE."

 

exactly

 

 

We get into the car, and my husband asks me what's wrong.

 

I say, look, maybe my expectation of WHY we are once again going to MC is to heal from the affair. You were given the floor tonight and yes, we have other issues we need to work on, but still, to this day, you have NEVER willingly introduced the topic of your affair!

 

exactly, all he did was list a bunch of excuses, and the quack expected you to sit there and listen.

 

 

In my individual session with the MC, he tells me that whenever the subject of the affair is brought up I should notice how clinically my husband shuts down; his demeanor, his body language.

 

 

come again? you are the one that has been hurt here. all this concern about your husband shutting down because he has to face his wrongdoing and answer for what he did?

 

 

But what does that mean for me and my pain? Why is the empathetic focus of all these clinicians on the pain and pathos of the cheater?

 

exactly...which is another reason I think MC is bulls##t. oh we gotta give a warm, friendly, welcoming environment for the cheater. I realize you don't want to get a cheater in MC and lambast them, but this is like putting criminals up in club med what this therapist is doing.

 

 

Next session I intend to ask this MC or any future one: Ever been betrayed by someone you love? Have any clue as to how to heal from it? Talk about it? Get to a point where your heart feels safe again? Ensure it never happens again?

 

I'd ask your quack point blank, "when are you going to stop treating my cheating husband with kid gloves while I sit here quiet, in pain, and feeling like nothing is being accomplished?"

[silktricks]

I'm not putting a time frame on it for Spark. It wasn't personal. I'm just saying eventually one has to move forward. As I said, it sounds like more IC is needed because the MC doesn't appear to be very productive from what I'm reading here.

 

I just thought my counselor was decent and I don't think my spouse has been seeing his -- both IC -- so it's interesting to find so much dissatisfaction with counselors here. Maybe too much is expected?

could be - I've been to a few counselors over the course of my life - to be honest there haven't been very many that have impressed me - maybe 2 - I don't have particularly high expectations, but if it doesn't fit, then it doesn't fit. Only one experience with MC - and it wasn't much of a fit.

 

You do need to move forward, of course, but the thing that has to be stressed is that you need to move forward at your own pace, and each individual has a different pace. If you get stuck, and can't move forward, that is a different situation - and may indicate that the marriage really isn't salvageable.

 

 

Even that is impossible to get 100% of the time.

100% effort, 100% of the time - no not possible .

 

 

Hmmmm. There are a lot of things the BS has to get over also. I'm not comparing the two -- I'm just saying. It sure seems like a rough row to hoe and for those who go down it, I wish them well!

- did you mean WS??? Otherwise, I'm not clear what you are talking about. If you mean WS - yes, there are things they must get over as well. As we all know, the problems were in the marriage - and no BS is ever all over innocent (regardless of how some people like to think of themselves). Unfortunately, though, the WS has pretty much driven a spike into the heart of things, so until the BS has healed at least a little, bringing up too much of their input into the disastrous state the marriage was in is probably not going to be very productive - and many will just think it is an attempt to shift blame.

 

 

That's my point. A lot of WS would convince themselves of something negative about the other person to attempt to make their BS feel better and to appease their own consciences.

Well, maybe a "lot" would. In my particular situation, the OW pretty much made it obvious all on her own. My H didn't have to convince himself of anything.

 

I hope he was equally embarrassed about his own actions. I just don't buy all of that from most people. It's coming to terms with his own actions by demonizing another person he chose to have a sexual/emotional relationship with while in his marriage. His reasons? Beats me. Each situation is different, but I still think a WS wouldn't have much option but to go in this direction as far as explanations to his BS go if he wanted to save the marriage.

his actions weren't the point of my statement. Yes, he was embarrassed about those. As for "demonizing" the OW - she made it extremely obvious what she was made of - he didn't have to "convince" himself (or me) of anything.

 

That's a safe thing for him to say given the situation, no?

 

I mean, in my opinion, it's disrespectful to one's spouse/marriage to have an affair -- obviously. It's just a continuation of the same type of behavior (disrespect, lack of integrity, etc.) if in the coming back home phase the WS does the same to their XAP.

Well - it depends, obviously. What would you need to say about someone who unrelentingly harassed your wife for about 2 years post affair, tried to hit her with her car, threw rocks and eggs at your vehicles, etc. Frankly, he didn't have to say a thing - and pretty much didn't. Her actions spoke volumes.

 

It really isn't productive for him to admit that to you anyway.

Productive??? It depends upon your definition of productive. Since MY requirement was that he not lie to me - ever - about anything - it actually would have been quite "productive" for him to tell me that he loved her, as I could have accepted that as "truth" (given his actions). The fact that he didn't was non-"productive" from that point of view. You said something in your earlier post about how the feelings for the AP were so strong that the WS was willing to put the marriage at risk for them. What you don't understand here is that that is logical - and seems logical to a BS as well. So if "productive" is to get the BS to get over it, then telling me something that would have made sense to me, would have been "productive". Since he couldn't say it, and since some of the things we went through in recovery indicate he didn't feel it, I'm inclined to think he didn't love her - however, it truly makes no difference anymore.

 

 

Nor should you. I didn't mean to imply I know what your husband in particular feels or thinks or anyone else. I'm just speculating as to what may be behind some of the things some WS say when trying to get back in the good graces of the BS. I'm sure it's very true that some DO feel they have made a terrible mistake and wish they had never met their XAP.

and some don't - and grieve over them. There is no "one size fits all"

 

Since you say it took 4+ for you, is all better -- for the most part anyway -- now?

Yeah - we're great. It's been 6 years now and we're both over it. I think at times he worries when I get sad that it's about him, so I always try to let him know immediately what the cause of any "downness" is so he's not stressed.