Second MC session

[Spark1111]

Okay....we each had two individual sessions, due to illness, and then reunited for the fourth session...

 

I had vowed to SHUT UP AND LISTEN SPARK and did so.....

 

My fWS speaks of our adult children and the stress they still bring to our lives as they struggle to gain financial independence from us (TRUE!)

 

He then speaks of my elderly mother who adds a lot of stress to our lives as she grows more confused and forgetful (True!)

 

We discuss some of our current financial constraints and how we intend to over come them.

 

We both express how weary we grow of all this responsibility and would simply love to run away with each other. Everyone laughs.

 

The counselor turns to us and says: "Wow! Look at how well you did today. There is nothing of the resentment and anger of the first week."

 

I think, "Is this guy smoking crack?" and grow a little short.

 

I say, "Spark and Sparkspouse are fine, no, better than fine on all but one topic, which is why I THOUGHT WE WERE HERE."

 

We get into the car, and my husband asks me what's wrong.

 

I say, look, maybe my expectation of WHY we are once again going to MC is to heal from the affair. You were given the floor tonight and yes, we have other issues we need to work on, but still, to this day, you have NEVER willingly introduced the topic of your affair!

 

Okay, so what gives?

 

In my individual session with the MC, he tells me that whenever the subject of the affair is brought up I should notice how clinically my husband shuts down; his demeanor, his body language.

 

I get it. But what does that mean for me and my pain? Why is the empathetic focus of all these clinicians on the pain and pathos of the cheater?

 

Next session I intend to ask this MC or any future one: Ever been betrayed by someone you love? Have any clue as to how to heal from it? Talk about it? Get to a point where your heart feels safe again? Ensure it never happens again?

 

I WANT positive, concrete steps as to how to move forward from this forever.

[Snowflower]

It sounds like your MC kind of handled the session like any regular MC session--what's going on in your marriage now-the routine stuff, etc.

 

From what you post and from my own experiences in MC--it seems like the MC missed the point here.

 

I had a similar experience in MC--and it was only about 6 months after d-day. I had the distinct impression that the therapist was telling me to "get over it" although not that directly. We quit MC after that for a variety of reasons.

 

Did you make it clear in your individual sessions that you needed help in moving on?

 

Do you have another appointment set? I would let your H and the MC know that the topic will be the A.

 

PM me if you want to discuss being the BS in MC more.

[silktricks]

I gotta say that this sounds a lot like the experience I had - all of the dealing that we did with the heavy stuff was done by just the 2 of us. The MC always let him basically talk about whatever he felt like - never once asked me what I thought, was feeling, etc....

 

Then in an IC session said I didn't talk enough... I was like, huh??? I thought you were supposed to maybe do something about that at the time....

 

Anyway, I/we decided to terminate MC and finish up ourselves... worked for us, but I suppose there are SOME good MCs out there...

[Snowflower]

Ah, so I was not alone in my experience in MC.

 

By the time we quit, I almost felt like the MC "liked" my H more than me. My H is a nice, likable guy...but I almost felt like I was supposed to somehow take the blame for the A. And it got worse right before we stopped going. Quite a story.

 

Yuck!

 

Silk, we were much the same way...we did a lot of the work ourselves before we ever went to MC--it was over the holidays when we reconciled and it was a few weeks after that before we could get in to see a MC. By then, we had talked ourselves to exhaustion-hours upon hours-about what had happened. We did the same thing during and after we left therapy.

 

I know MC is touted here on LS, in recovery books, etc. as being absolutely necessary. And it did help us...but there are also a lot of caveats, IMO.

[Spark1111]

This is how I am feeling! As if my husband is the MORE IMPORTANT of the two of us and I should just get over it.

 

I keep trying to say I have, but he hasn't, and in that alone there are needs of mine he seems incapable of meeting.

 

Look, by virtue of whatever degree MCs do get, they maybe spend a couple of months on marriage counseling, so are therefore allowed to counsel couples.

 

It's similiar to every attorney having the right to conduct real estate transactions though he/she may have no experience whatsoever being effective at it.

 

Sigh......

 

I feel like I know more than the counselor regarding infidelity at this point and I just want someone to teach us something new....

 

Friday, we go again.....

[What_Next]

While I cannot comment to the infidelity aspect of what you are going through in MC; I can definitely comment on my experience with MC. Actually my wife and I discussed something very similiar to this only a few days ago. First, we have had 2 sessions thus far and a third is scheduled for this coming Monday.

 

The first was uncomfortable and really didn't help either of us. It was more of a game of chicken, who could push each other further away in front of a third party. In either case we got little from it.

 

The second was less comfortable, but in the end we both took little away from it. There was no real direction given, in fact our MC told us that he had planned on giving us "homework" but we had already done it. He didn't empart much on us.

 

We are going back this Monday and we have both agreed that we will tell our MC that we want to move forward a little further with our sessions. We want something tangible out of it. Honestly, I feel this might be our last MC session. I know the process is highly valued on LS, but for us I am not sure it is working.

[Spark1111]

It seems it is either a phenomenal experience or falls completely flat.

 

I think it has to do with the level of experience of the counselor.

It is a shame because I cannot think of anything more important to health and welfare of a relationship, so why does there seem to be such few good ones out there?

 

I have "pleasant enough," I want more.

 

And you are smart to give it three times. That is as long as it should take to make a decision as to whether this is the best counselor for you.

 

If we do not click with this guy soon, I intend to shop for another.

 

You should also. There styles and techniques are radically different. Find one that works for you!

[2sure]

Yeah, I guess I dont get it or I'm missing some part of the big picture but it seems to me that MC often want to focus on everything but the infidelity. Like they want to highlight the good things, guide you through learning to communicate about some of the not good things...all in an effort to eventually let the infidelity either go away in your mind, become a smaller issue, or ....something.

 

And you know what? I followed that at first..in the hopes we would eventually address it. But then I was like: Yeah, thats right, its our only freaking real issue, we both are communicators and negotiators PROFESSIONALLY, so...um, I'm ready to chat.

 

Never happened.

[Snowflower]

Basically, it sounds like many MC don't know what the heck they are doing...especially when it comes to infidelity.

 

The "get over it" attitude toward the BS seems to be very prevalent.

 

At least I feel better about my experience with MC now. Amusingly enough, I was just thinking about this today, even before I read this thread. I had kind of wondered if there was something wrong with ME which led our MC to not like me for some reason. Like I said, the MC seemed much more sympathetic toward my H.

[2sure]

Oh, dont get me wrong...even though we didnt make it, I have to say that I'm still greatful for the skills and insights I gained in MC. But once it got to a certain point I realized that no one knows more about me and what I need, than me.

[Snowflower]

Spark, you mentioned in another thread that you WS had made a list about whether or not to divorce you and this list was at his sister's suggestion.

 

I didn't want to further T/J that other thread so I thought I would ask you here on your own thread...how mad were you at this sister who had suggested it? Or were you mad at her at all? Somehow, I think I would have been p*ssed at the family member, as well. Did she know about the affair?

 

I would have been royally PO'd about the list just like you mention. How callous...I have used the list-making idea weighing out two options. But geez, never for a highly emotionally-charged matter such as my marriage!

 

I'm so sorry you had to endure that!

[Spark1111]

Oh, dont get me wrong...even though we didnt make it, I have to say that I'm still greatful for the skills and insights I gained in MC. But once it got to a certain point I realized that no one knows more about me and what I need, than me.

This is where I am at now....and it is p***ing me off!

[silktricks]

I've got to add....

 

I had many times begged my husband to go to MC both before the start of his affair and (I now know) while it was on-going. He adamantly refused. One of the questions I asked post-affair was why????

 

After the MC experience we had, he said "this was why. I didn't think they'd be able to help". I've got to admit that for a long time I was pretty po'd at him for refusing, but now in very long retrospect, I really don't think they could have helped, either.

 

Neither of us, at that point, was really ready to face either that we were each part of the problems, nor that we really couldn't/didn't want to live without the other. Now we can (and do) address whatever problems arise from an entirely different base point. (We both wish we would have had that base point to begin with - but unfortunately, it took a lot of pain to get there.)

Edited June 24, 2010 by silktricks

[Spark1111]

Spark, you mentioned in another thread that you WS had made a list about whether or not to divorce you and this list was at his sister's suggestion.

 

I didn't want to further T/J that other thread so I thought I would ask you here on your own thread...how mad were you at this sister who had suggested it? Or were you mad at her at all? Somehow, I think I would have been p*ssed at the family member, as well. Did she know about the affair?

 

I would have been royally PO'd about the list just like you mention. How callous...I have used the list-making idea weighing out two options. But geez, never for a highly emotionally-charged matter such as my marriage!

 

I'm so sorry you had to endure that!

 

She's a teacher. (They make a lot of lists!) She truly meant well. And my initial reaction was I was happy he had someone to talk to, because he was such a mess.

 

After DDAY, she called constantly in an effort to put us back together. That touched my heart, though I wasn't having it. It was also when she revealed her husband's infidelity to me. Apparently, my husband already knew of it. And my sister-in-law forgave her husband quickly, so it seemed.

 

I wrote a thread on it you can read.

 

Here is what she didn't know:

 

He only started confiding to her towards the end....She had (has?) no idea how long it was. I think the OW was pressuring him to take the next, more permanent, step. He acted to his sis as if the attraction to "his friend," was in it's initial stages, and his dissatisfaction with me was intense. Hence, lists. Ugh!

 

She also doesn't know that somehow this communication between them was taken as a tacit approval to continue the affair. His thinking: Well she loves and forgives me, so Spark will too. (Fat chance!)

 

He also convinced himself that my reaction would be like her reaction to her spouse's infidelity: End it. Put your head down and go forward. Make believe nothing too untoward happened and make sure no one knows. (Fat chance!)

 

So in retrospect, he used her too to assauge his guilt. How angry can I possibly be with her?

 

His whole family: Conflict avoiders very, very concerned with keeping up appearances.

 

And I remain amazed how, after all these years, they still underestimate me at the very least, and truly do not know me, at the very worst.

 

Or do I love my spouse MORE than the status quo he helps to provide?

 

Every now and then I have seen her erupt in anger at her husband because he didn't put the pot back where it is kept.

 

I turned to my fWS and said: Do you really think it's about putting the pot away correctly? Or is it that their is tons of misplaced anger over his betrayal that was never discussed?

 

I rest my case.

[Spark1111]

I've got to add....

 

I had many times begged my husband to go to MC both before the start of his affair and (I now know) while it was on-going. He adamantly refused. One of the questions I asked post-affair was why????

 

After the MC experience we had, he said "this was why. I didn't think they'd be able to help". I've got to admit that for a long time I was pretty po'd at him for refusing, but now in very long retrospect, I really don't think they could have helped, either.

 

Neither of us, at that point, was really ready to face either that we were each part of the problems, nor that we really couldn't/didn't want to live without the other. Now we can (and do) address whatever problems arise from an entirely different base point. (We both wish we would have had that base point to begin with - but unfortunately, it took a lot of pain to get there.)

 

Okay, I too begged my spouse pre-affair to go to counseling.

 

His response: What am I suppose to do? Sit there and cry about how my parents treated me? (well....yes.)

 

When he finally enters IC at my insistence as a condition to reconcile after affair, guess where he winds up?

 

Crying about how his mother and father treated him.

 

But as far as MC goes, I am beginning to have MC envy!

 

I want a phenomenal experience to move us forward from this chapter.

[Snowflower]

Every now and then I have seen her erupt in anger at her husband because he didn't put the pot back where it is kept.

 

I turned to my fWS and said: Do you really think it's about putting the pot away correctly? Or is it that their is tons of misplaced anger over his betrayal that was never discussed?

 

I rest my case.

 

Sorry I made you t/j your own thread! But thanks for answering! I never had anything similar to this issue come up with my in-laws but I think I would have never let it go if it had.

 

I agree that your SIL has a lot of misplaced anger about the A...especially if it was swept under the rug. You have to feel badly for her--but if your husband's family are all conflict-avoiders then can't you see why she handled it the way she did?

 

When you told your husband about the cooking pot incident, what was his reaction? Did he agree with you?

[Snowflower]

 

But as far as MC goes, I am beginning to have MC envy!

 

I want a phenomenal experience to move us forward from this chapter.

 

I've been thinking about MC today and this thread.

 

I've not felt a need to go back to MC--I think I'm too gun-shy after the last time.

 

But I've come to the conclusion that I have to figure out how to heal on my own. Really, no one, not a counselor, not a friend, or resources such as LS or relationship books (not that I read 'em) will be able to help me heal.

 

I have to do this on my own. On my own timeframe and in my own way. And the only person who can possibly help me is my fWH...as strange as that is. I once read somewhere that infidelity is a unique experience in that the very person who caused you harm (the WS) is the best one to help you heal. That is, if you choose to continue in a relationship with them.

 

So true!

 

So spark, maybe MC isn't the way to healing for you? I don't know, maybe it will help you but maybe the answer you seek to putting this all behind you is still out there, somewhere within you?

[White Flower]

 

I WANT positive, concrete steps as to how to move forward from this forever.

I absolutely believe in counseling and psychology in general. I WISH it didn't involve business because to me it appears this counselor wants to drag it out as long as he can for $$$ during a bad economy. I fear many counselors are doing this today. Sadly.

[seren]

H and I never did the MC thing, I have a deep abhorrence for counseling ( even thought I have trained in counseling, go figure) in general. In my professional capacity, working with rape and sexual abuse survivors I saw so many counselors screw things up.

 

I used the analogy of clearing out my wardrobe. First off, if I threw all the contents onto the bed, the pile would be overwhelming and I would end up just stuffing it all back in any old how, creating even more chaos as it would all be jumbled up. So, I look at what has been there the longest, what I like best, even though it no longer fits, it might have happy memories, be sentimental and so I keep those things, knowing they may not be used, but take them out from time to time just to smile.

 

There will be things that just don't fit, now I can keep them, I may fit into them one day, or I can decide that they have no purpose and just throw them out. You need to try to relate all this to whatever problems you are trying to work through, bear with me.

 

There will be things you have bought on a whim, they appealed at the time, but really don't go with anything, have no purpose and are just cluttering the place up - get rid. There will be some things that you don't want, they just stay on the floor, not even good enough for a hanger - get rid. Only when you are ready to deal with the next pile, do you move on, some things just keep getting moved in and out until you make a firm decision.

 

Phew, I have decided that I know all I need to know, all I am likely to know and that my asking questions doesn't really change anything, it happened and I have to deal with now, otherwise I am just keeping the power of the A the focus and not the here and now. I know that H hates talking about the A, I know that when I get really comfy and safe I get afraid and I sometimes need to talk, he knows this, we limit it to 20 minutes or so, we both cry, both acknowledge what a **** thing the A was, my pain is never minimised, nor is H's remorse. No matter if we talk it through until hell freezes, it cannot change, but we can change the future. Sounds so simple, of course it isn't, but it seems to work better than the constant why, where, how. I don't think MC would have benefitted us, but would advise anyone that the moment a counselor says I think that .... it's time to leave. Counselors aren't paid to think, but to guide and enable.

[Spark1111]

I've been thinking about MC today and this thread.

 

I've not felt a need to go back to MC--I think I'm too gun-shy after the last time.

 

But I've come to the conclusion that I have to figure out how to heal on my own. Really, no one, not a counselor, not a friend, or resources such as LS or relationship books (not that I read 'em) will be able to help me heal.

 

I have to do this on my own. On my own timeframe and in my own way. And the only person who can possibly help me is my fWH...as strange as that is. I once read somewhere that infidelity is a unique experience in that the very person who caused you harm (the WS) is the best one to help you heal. That is, if you choose to continue in a relationship with them.

 

So true!

 

So spark, maybe MC isn't the way to healing for you? I don't know, maybe it will help you but maybe the answer you seek to putting this all behind you is still out there, somewhere within you?

 

I have exhausted my inner resources, and having the natural fortitude that I am fortunate to posess, I feel at peace.

 

The remaining sticking points have to do with his inability to help MORE with my healing process. So truth be told? I thought MC would help him be more available for ME.

[Spark1111]

I absolutely believe in counseling and psychology in general. I WISH it didn't involve business because to me it appears this counselor wants to drag it out as long as he can for $$$ during a bad economy. I fear many counselors are doing this today. Sadly.

 

I'm feeling this strongly now also!

 

They are not setting time frame limits. They use to! ICs would TELL you that at a certain point you would know that you have gained all you could from them and it would be time to say good-bye; graduate from them to LEAVE counseling or to find another who could offer new insight.

 

They do not do this anymore! Keeping the gravy train going, IMHO.

[Spark1111]

H and I never did the MC thing, I have a deep abhorrence for counseling ( even thought I have trained in counseling, go figure) in general. In my professional capacity, working with rape and sexual abuse survivors I saw so many counselors screw things up.

 

I used the analogy of clearing out my wardrobe. First off, if I threw all the contents onto the bed, the pile would be overwhelming and I would end up just stuffing it all back in any old how, creating even more chaos as it would all be jumbled up. So, I look at what has been there the longest, what I like best, even though it no longer fits, it might have happy memories, be sentimental and so I keep those things, knowing they may not be used, but take them out from time to time just to smile.

 

There will be things that just don't fit, now I can keep them, I may fit into them one day, or I can decide that they have no purpose and just throw them out. You need to try to relate all this to whatever problems you are trying to work through, bear with me.

 

There will be things you have bought on a whim, they appealed at the time, but really don't go with anything, have no purpose and are just cluttering the place up - get rid. There will be some things that you don't want, they just stay on the floor, not even good enough for a hanger - get rid. Only when you are ready to deal with the next pile, do you move on, some things just keep getting moved in and out until you make a firm decision.

 

Phew, I have decided that I know all I need to know, all I am likely to know and that my asking questions doesn't really change anything, it happened and I have to deal with now, otherwise I am just keeping the power of the A the focus and not the here and now. I know that H hates talking about the A, I know that when I get really comfy and safe I get afraid and I sometimes need to talk, he knows this, we limit it to 20 minutes or so, we both cry, both acknowledge what a **** thing the A was, my pain is never minimised, nor is H's remorse. No matter if we talk it through until hell freezes, it cannot change, but we can change the future. Sounds so simple, of course it isn't, but it seems to work better than the constant why, where, how. I don't think MC would have benefitted us, but would advise anyone that the moment a counselor says I think that .... it's time to leave. Counselors aren't paid to think, but to guide and enable.

 

Seren, this is a beautiful analogy of the healing process.

 

I WISH at this point in time, it was an easier conversation between us, but it is not. Not that it wouldn't be painful, just easier, calmer, okay. And it is sooooo not me.

 

It's him. And what his fear and defensiveness about the topic does is make me feel LESS safe, not more so. He has stated his reasons, his shame is great, I am truly over it and know almost all I need to know.

 

I just need him to talk about it calmly with me, once in a while, now and then. Not to totally try to ignore it ever happened.

 

That scares me on a very deep level. And I thought MC would help HIM be as calm as I can be now about the topic.

 

Maybe for a conflict avoider from a long line of secret-keeping conflict avoiders, this may be as good as it gets. If a professional tells me that, I will just swallow and accept. We will see.

 

And his crumpling,

[WalkInThePark]

I say, look, maybe my expectation of WHY we are once again going to MC is to heal from the affair. You were given the floor tonight and yes, we have other issues we need to work on, but still, to this day, you have NEVER willingly introduced the topic of your affair!

 

Okay, so what gives?

 

In my individual session with the MC, he tells me that whenever the subject of the affair is brought up I should notice how clinically my husband shuts down; his demeanor, his body language.

 

I get it. But what does that mean for me and my pain? Why is the empathetic focus of all these clinicians on the pain and pathos of the cheater?

 

Next session I intend to ask this MC or any future one: Ever been betrayed by someone you love? Have any clue as to how to heal from it? Talk about it? Get to a point where your heart feels safe again? Ensure it never happens again?

 

I WANT positive, concrete steps as to how to move forward from this forever.

 

You are missing the point, Spark. You wallow in your pain. It is like a wound that you keep scratching open every time it is about to heal. You keep starting topics, you keep telling what a mistake your H made, what a bad person the AP is. And you delude yourself that if your H will crawl through the dust for you, you won't feel that pain anymore. That is not true because it will never be enough for you. The reason why is that your focusing on the pain because that way you don't have to move forward. It is up to you to find out why you don't want to move forward.

 

I think that focusing on the A puts you in a strong position because your H remains the bad guy. But don't forget that you took him back. That should normally mean that you are willing to move on. Taking him back and then constantly annoying him with the affair, is a very double message you are sending.

[Spark1111]

Well, my own experience with MC was not altogether bad. I actually would have continued IC but with a different counselor if it was not for the financial aspect. Even so, I have to admit the MC counselor did seem biased, in my favor. My XH made a total ass of himself during the assessment. The nurse was asking pretty basic questions on what we were doing there and he took every opportunity to yell and berate me, basically verbally assaulting me in front of her.

 

I did not say a word but it was extremely upsetting... I remember I was physically shaking. I am sure the nurse passed it on to the counselor, she was writing EVERYTHING down.

 

The initial sessions were with the counselor one on one. I explained to him that I was unhappy in my marriage but afraid to ask for a divorce. It seemed to me that he worked every session afterword in getting me closer to telling the XH that I wanted a divorce rather than bringing us back together.

 

One thing I did not like about my counselor was that he pushed anti-anxiety medication on me pretty hard. I had told him that although I feel such medicines work great for others they are not something I would want to take. In fact, I am VERY highly opposed to them (for myself). After a while he did convince me to go to my doctor who gave me a brown bag filled with sample anti-anxiety meds. I wouldn't take them. Counselor said I was non-compliant. I ended up taking one when I had a 19 hr drive ahead of me, and it did calm my brain (I was on my own, my thoughts were going crazy). I still have the rest packed away in my bathroom closet.

 

I think counseling can be beneficial as long as the counselor understands your boundaries. I want to go back into counseling because there are a lot of residual feelings from the divorce that have left me highly insecure and guilt ridden. My boyfriend has helped me work through a lot of my feelings, but I still struggle and he can only do so much. I feel like having someone to talk to would be helpful for me, I just don't want anyone pushing drugs on me.

 

A counselor can suggest meds and a good psychiatrist to evaluate you, but they should never push them....

 

Their job is to try to get you to the root of your anxieties; the meds an extra measure of help.

 

Most ICs I know would be jumping up and down that you were the rare person who wasn't thrown meds and never saw a counselor! That is one of the pet peeves today; docs writing scripts without counseling.

 

During many times of my life, I have gone back to IC in stressful times or when painful feelings were starting to consume my happiness.

 

I just tell friends and family: Yep, time for a tune up.

[Spark1111]

You are missing the point, Spark. You wallow in your pain. It is like a wound that you keep scratching open every time it is about to heal. You keep starting topics, you keep telling what a mistake your H made, what a bad person the AP is. And you delude yourself that if your H will crawl through the dust for you, you won't feel that pain anymore. That is not true because it will never be enough for you. The reason why is that your focusing on the pain because that way you don't have to move forward. It is up to you to find out why you don't want to move forward.

 

I think that focusing on the A puts you in a strong position because your H remains the bad guy. But don't forget that you took him back. That should normally mean that you are willing to move on. Taking him back and then constantly annoying him with the affair, is a very double message you are sending.

 

Well, thanks for the support, but nah.....

 

There is no dust-crawling required here to stay.

 

Plain and simple? WE botched the aftermath.

 

Taking him back? He was suicidal. It was the kind thing to do at that time.

Did I forgive him and fall in love with him again?

Absolutely. No regrets whatsoever.

 

But regaining his mental health took precedence over my feelings. He is the only father my children have. I made the right decision, though the most painful one as far as my feelings went.

 

Now that we are both committed and willing to create a new and improved relationship, I have allowed myself the luxury of having some residual issues and questions I need answered.

 

That okay with you?

 

I am at the 2.5 year mark. The average is 2.5 to 5 years to overcome infidelity IF all the proper steps are taken.

 

I am doing great! Just wish he would hurry up and join me for the future I envision we will have.