Silly_Girl Posted June 24, 2010 Posted June 24, 2010 Something I'm finding difficult/interesting from my experience, and reading the (sometimes harrowing) stories of others is how our own personal boundaries are different for each of us, and how we can recoil at something someone else is prepared to tolerate, and yet, in other ways we may be prepared to accept less than we should, but we don't always see it. I like the line about 'see your own problems/position as if you were your best friend giving you advice'. I hate that one. Because I'm rrrubbish at it!!! I can lecture myself and then go and do the opposite. My xMM knew things weren't 'right' in his marriage. No sex before marriage, and then er... no sex after. Not something I could ever live with, personally. They agreed she'd have counselling for it, she had a session and refused to return or talk to him about it. She doesn't like public displays of affection at all, and isn't physical in any way; no kissing on the lips etc. This shocks and stuns me. Never known a marriage like it. He accepted it as something 'safe' and reliable and went about his business, working hard, devoting time to his hobby, and really not doing very much with himself at all. She had an affair, physically too, moved out to spend more time with another married guy. xMM was devastated. Pretty much had a breakdown. Begged her to move back, under any circumstances. She eventually did (her MM decided to go back to wife and kids). xMM and wife agreed no sex, nothing would change. Didn't discuss the affair, only that it would no longer be an affair, but a 'friendship'. Wife and her xAP meet regularly now, he has been to the house when xMM is out. The jury's out on whether she's up to anything, but if xMM 'allows' her to see him, then that's his tough, I guess. My reaction to this is that it is incredulous. How can two people live like that? Well, not live, to me it's not living. They did nothing to rebuild their marriage (she's too 'private' for counselling and he never demanded it), and they fell back in to this. I found myself feeling sorry for both of them (initially), I see their marriage as a shell only. They think they've 'done well to get this far... considering', and that 'it's unconventional but it sort of works'. Jeez, there's so much more to life. A relationship can be so much more than this sibling-like co-existence. It amazes me. And it goes round and round in my head, that scenario and also others I read here. I find it so sad and frustrating that there are people who feel obliged to accept their lot in life and even to acknowledge (to each other) that they are 'settling'. I feel angry, I feel cheated too (xMM chose that and not me - that's crazy right?!?). You'd never catch ME in a relationship like THAT. And then... I think about the relationship I had. The man who was arranging to run away with my much younger cousin. The man I forgave. I forgave him for hitting me, and scaring me and my family. I worked with him, tried to help him, defended him and showed him love when he deserved NOTHING. For years. And I imagine what my friends/acquaintances must have been feeling when they got wind of another 'incident'. I got out of that, and was lucky to get out alive. But it took a long time for me to realise the investment was a waste. I'm trying hard not to view things through my own eyes because I guess unless you're in it, you're not in it. I know I need to give up wondering how xMM can accept his marriage as it is, their problem not mine. And maybe, as in another thread (Spark and WW perhaps) it's not as simple as it's stated. Maybe as the spouses talk about their M it IS clear, and they ARE certain in what they say (xMM said he'd never loved his wife, not in the 'right' way, not like his first love, not like with me). But that doesn't mean that's actually how it is, does it? Often we hear 'the WS is the only person who knows because they have a foot in both camps' etc, but (and this isn't excusing...) I'm not sure they DO know. And maybe they do on Dday, but judging by a lot of posts, they still don't. So how the hell are WE supposed to know, if they don't?! That's enough thinking for this morning. My 'ed 'urts.
Tsm Posted June 24, 2010 Posted June 24, 2010 (Quote) I'm trying hard not to view things through my own eyes because I guess unless you're in it, you're not in it. I know I need to give up wondering how xMM can accept his marriage as it is, their problem not mine. I also wonder hey, but then again its not my problem hence i broke it off with him, because i was living under his shadow by default, cause he couldnt make his own decision and fell in that.
jj33 Posted June 24, 2010 Posted June 24, 2010 (edited) Maybe as the spouses talk about their M it IS clear, and they ARE certain in what they say (xMM said he'd never loved his wife, not in the 'right' way, not like his first love, not like with me). But that doesn't mean that's actually how it is, does it? Often we hear 'the WS is the only person who knows because they have a foot in both camps' etc, but (and this isn't excusing...) I'm not sure they DO know. And maybe they do on Dday, but judging by a lot of posts, they still don't. So how the hell are WE supposed to know, if they don't?! That's enough thinking for this morning. My 'ed 'urts. Silly it seems to me that in most cases they dont have a foot in both camps. Their feet are very firmly planted in their M (in terms of staying or going) but they take little vacations outside of that camp. If you go to the gym every day, you go there, you enjoy it, but you dont live there and would never give up your life to live there. or if you go to Spain most weekends, you enjoy it but its not the place you consider to be "home". You may love Spain, you may love the weather and the food and the people but you arent giving up your life or your job or your friends to move there permanently. I think its the same with many people and their marriages. They like what the AP has to offer and what it adds to their life, but for all the flaws in the marriage, it is their touchstone and a part of their identity and they arent willing to trade it in. Ive said it before and I will say it again. Most people who have As are not looking for a new spouse. People who want a new spouse get divorced. They dont shop first the way you would with a car or a new house. Edited to add I think the problem is that noone should go into an A thinking that the WS will leave. And once you find yourself thinking that, you should end it because otherwise you become that evil cheerleader on the sidelines wishing and hoping someone else's life is blown to smithereens. Not your call as to whether the marriage "should" survive. That is between the 2 people who are married. Edited June 24, 2010 by jj33
Ellin Posted June 24, 2010 Posted June 24, 2010 I like the line about 'see your own problems/position as if you were your best friend giving you advice'. I hate that one. Because I'm rrrubbish at it!!! I can lecture myself and then go and do the opposite. That might be because our emotions and needs are more powerful forces that our reasonable thinking, in our behavior and choices.
wheelwright Posted June 24, 2010 Posted June 24, 2010 (edited) Silly it seems to me that in most cases they dont have a foot in both camps. Their feet are very firmly planted in their M (in terms of staying or going) but they take little vacations outside of that camp. If you go to the gym every day, you go there, you enjoy it, but you dont live there and would never give up your life to live there. or if you go to Spain most weekends, you enjoy it but its not the place you consider to be "home". You may love Spain, you may love the weather and the food and the people but you arent giving up your life or your job or your friends to move there permanently. I think its the same with many people and their marriages. They like what the AP has to offer and what it adds to their life, but for all the flaws in the marriage, it is their touchstone and a part of their identity and they arent willing to trade it in. Ive said it before and I will say it again. Most people who have As are not looking for a new spouse. People who want a new spouse get divorced. They dont shop first the way you would with a car or a new house. Edited to add I think the problem is that noone should go into an A thinking that the WS will leave. And once you find yourself thinking that, you should end it because otherwise you become that evil cheerleader on the sidelines wishing and hoping someone else's life is blown to smithereens. Not your call as to whether the marriage "should" survive. That is between the 2 people who are married. I like the metaphors here. They seem to work. But with the Spain one, if you spend all your time when not in Spain thinking about being in Spain, then you may begin to consider moving there, even though it started out as merely a fun vacation spot. And that's when the trouble starts. The WS realises they have to either move to Spain, or find a way of enjoying being at home. Cue DDay, M reconciliation, and all visits to Spain denied visa. Giving up the visits is essential, as seeing what a great place it was only rubbed your nose in it when you weren't there. Just another way of viewing the metaphor, and by no means the only one. By way of coincidence, Spain happens to be my favourite country! But I don't live there. I like the familiarity of my home country. Edited June 24, 2010 by wheelwright adding
pureinheart Posted June 24, 2010 Posted June 24, 2010 (edited) Something I'm finding difficult/interesting from my experience, and reading the (sometimes harrowing) stories of others is how our own personal boundaries are different for each of us, and how we can recoil at something someone else is prepared to tolerate, and yet, in other ways we may be prepared to accept less than we should, but we don't always see it. I like the line about 'see your own problems/position as if you were your best friend giving you advice'. I hate that one. Because I'm rrrubbish at it!!! I can lecture myself and then go and do the opposite. My xMM knew things weren't 'right' in his marriage. No sex before marriage, and then er... no sex after. Not something I could ever live with, personally. They agreed she'd have counselling for it, she had a session and refused to return or talk to him about it. She doesn't like public displays of affection at all, and isn't physical in any way; no kissing on the lips etc. This shocks and stuns me. Never known a marriage like it. He accepted it as something 'safe' and reliable and went about his business, working hard, devoting time to his hobby, and really not doing very much with himself at all. She had an affair, physically too, moved out to spend more time with another married guy. xMM was devastated. Pretty much had a breakdown. Begged her to move back, under any circumstances. She eventually did (her MM decided to go back to wife and kids). xMM and wife agreed no sex, nothing would change. Didn't discuss the affair, only that it would no longer be an affair, but a 'friendship'. Wife and her xAP meet regularly now, he has been to the house when xMM is out. The jury's out on whether she's up to anything, but if xMM 'allows' her to see him, then that's his tough, I guess. My reaction to this is that it is incredulous. How can two people live like that? Well, not live, to me it's not living. They did nothing to rebuild their marriage (she's too 'private' for counselling and he never demanded it), and they fell back in to this. I found myself feeling sorry for both of them (initially), I see their marriage as a shell only. They think they've 'done well to get this far... considering', and that 'it's unconventional but it sort of works'. Jeez, there's so much more to life. A relationship can be so much more than this sibling-like co-existence. It amazes me. And it goes round and round in my head, that scenario and also others I read here. I find it so sad and frustrating that there are people who feel obliged to accept their lot in life and even to acknowledge (to each other) that they are 'settling'. I feel angry, I feel cheated too (xMM chose that and not me - that's crazy right?!?). You'd never catch ME in a relationship like THAT. And then... I think about the relationship I had. The man who was arranging to run away with my much younger cousin. The man I forgave. I forgave him for hitting me, and scaring me and my family. I worked with him, tried to help him, defended him and showed him love when he deserved NOTHING. For years. And I imagine what my friends/acquaintances must have been feeling when they got wind of another 'incident'. I got out of that, and was lucky to get out alive. But it took a long time for me to realise the investment was a waste. I'm trying hard not to view things through my own eyes because I guess unless you're in it, you're not in it. I know I need to give up wondering how xMM can accept his marriage as it is, their problem not mine. And maybe, as in another thread (Spark and WW perhaps) it's not as simple as it's stated. Maybe as the spouses talk about their M it IS clear, and they ARE certain in what they say (xMM said he'd never loved his wife, not in the 'right' way, not like his first love, not like with me). But that doesn't mean that's actually how it is, does it? Often we hear 'the WS is the only person who knows because they have a foot in both camps' etc, but (and this isn't excusing...) I'm not sure they DO know. And maybe they do on Dday, but judging by a lot of posts, they still don't. So how the hell are WE supposed to know, if they don't?! That's enough thinking for this morning. My 'ed 'urts. SG, you seem like a really cool person BTW:D... very objective, seeing all sides. Your MM's sitch is simular to exDM sitch. I was unable to comprehend the "why's" and "how's" of it all...the reasoning and motives behind the motives. It's all very simple to me, very cut and dry...bad M, straying, well I find the exit door real quick. My heart goes out to MM's W, as I am very sure she was abused severely. SG for the life of me I could not understand why people who are clearly not happy in the right sense of the word would stay in a hurtful, abusive M. In exDM's case, they fed off of each other and the drama. ExDM was in several casual A's over the years and I think he did that to get her attention as it was a game for both of them, both ways. They would stray, get the others attention, then fight, then the honeymoon period...then start the whole process over again. By the time I came into the picture this dynamic was in full swing. I hate games, I do enter in and play at times, but hate games all the same. I saw both of their games and voiced my opinion loudly. There were times, and one time in particular that I got very angry and blurted out, "what kind of sick game are you and your W playing with me". I felt like a type of pawn in all of this. I think exDM held them at bay (his W and daughters), telling them to not mess with me, then when I cut the games off he gave the green light to attack (per se) and they all came after me...all I have to say is they are lucky I chose not to retaliate. I feel like my presence cut off the games once and for all...I am very glad that part of my life is over and gone...what a hard time that was...in all aspects of my life at that time... Edited June 24, 2010 by pureinheart
fooled once Posted June 24, 2010 Posted June 24, 2010 Something I'm finding difficult/interesting from my experience, and reading the (sometimes harrowing) stories of others is how our own personal boundaries are different for each of us, and how we can recoil at something someone else is prepared to tolerate, and yet, in other ways we may be prepared to accept less than we should, but we don't always see it. I like the line about 'see your own problems/position as if you were your best friend giving you advice'. I hate that one. Because I'm rrrubbish at it!!! I can lecture myself and then go and do the opposite. My xMM knew things weren't 'right' in his marriage. No sex before marriage, and then er... no sex after. Not something I could ever live with, personally. They agreed she'd have counselling for it, she had a session and refused to return or talk to him about it. She doesn't like public displays of affection at all, and isn't physical in any way; no kissing on the lips etc. This shocks and stuns me. Never known a marriage like it. He accepted it as something 'safe' and reliable and went about his business, working hard, devoting time to his hobby, and really not doing very much with himself at all. She had an affair, physically too, moved out to spend more time with another married guy. xMM was devastated. Pretty much had a breakdown. Begged her to move back, under any circumstances. She eventually did (her MM decided to go back to wife and kids). xMM and wife agreed no sex, nothing would change. Didn't discuss the affair, only that it would no longer be an affair, but a 'friendship'. Wife and her xAP meet regularly now, he has been to the house when xMM is out. The jury's out on whether she's up to anything, but if xMM 'allows' her to see him, then that's his tough, I guess. My reaction to this is that it is incredulous. How can two people live like that? Well, not live, to me it's not living. They did nothing to rebuild their marriage (she's too 'private' for counselling and he never demanded it), and they fell back in to this. I found myself feeling sorry for both of them (initially), I see their marriage as a shell only. They think they've 'done well to get this far... considering', and that 'it's unconventional but it sort of works'. Jeez, there's so much more to life. A relationship can be so much more than this sibling-like co-existence. It amazes me. And it goes round and round in my head, that scenario and also others I read here. I find it so sad and frustrating that there are people who feel obliged to accept their lot in life and even to acknowledge (to each other) that they are 'settling'. I feel angry, I feel cheated too (xMM chose that and not me - that's crazy right?!?). You'd never catch ME in a relationship like THAT. And then... I think about the relationship I had. The man who was arranging to run away with my much younger cousin. The man I forgave. I forgave him for hitting me, and scaring me and my family. I worked with him, tried to help him, defended him and showed him love when he deserved NOTHING. For years. And I imagine what my friends/acquaintances must have been feeling when they got wind of another 'incident'. I got out of that, and was lucky to get out alive. But it took a long time for me to realise the investment was a waste. I'm trying hard not to view things through my own eyes because I guess unless you're in it, you're not in it. I know I need to give up wondering how xMM can accept his marriage as it is, their problem not mine. And maybe, as in another thread (Spark and WW perhaps) it's not as simple as it's stated. Maybe as the spouses talk about their M it IS clear, and they ARE certain in what they say (xMM said he'd never loved his wife, not in the 'right' way, not like his first love, not like with me). But that doesn't mean that's actually how it is, does it? Often we hear 'the WS is the only person who knows because they have a foot in both camps' etc, but (and this isn't excusing...) I'm not sure they DO know. And maybe they do on Dday, but judging by a lot of posts, they still don't. So how the hell are WE supposed to know, if they don't?! That's enough thinking for this morning. My 'ed 'urts. Silly ((hug)) please also remember, what he told you isn't necessarily the truth. It is a contradiction in what you wrote about what he says -- he says she doesn't want/like sex, but she has an affair? Huh? Remember, he needed you to believe poor little him was in such a loveless marriage..... yet he begged he to come back when she left? Again, such a contradiction!! Read so many of the posts on the infidelity board - the women whose H's had affairs where he told his mistress one thing, but reality was totally different (told the mistress he didn't have sex with the wife, yet he did almost daily!). MM are known liars, unless their wives know they are actively engaged in an affair. Silly it seems to me that in most cases they dont have a foot in both camps. Their feet are very firmly planted in their M (in terms of staying or going) but they take little vacations outside of that camp. If you go to the gym every day, you go there, you enjoy it, but you dont live there and would never give up your life to live there. or if you go to Spain most weekends, you enjoy it but its not the place you consider to be "home". You may love Spain, you may love the weather and the food and the people but you arent giving up your life or your job or your friends to move there permanently. I think its the same with many people and their marriages. They like what the AP has to offer and what it adds to their life, but for all the flaws in the marriage, it is their touchstone and a part of their identity and they arent willing to trade it in. Ive said it before and I will say it again. Most people who have As are not looking for a new spouse. People who want a new spouse get divorced. They dont shop first the way you would with a car or a new house. Edited to add I think the problem is that noone should go into an A thinking that the WS will leave. And once you find yourself thinking that, you should end it because otherwise you become that evil cheerleader on the sidelines wishing and hoping someone else's life is blown to smithereens. Not your call as to whether the marriage "should" survive. That is between the 2 people who are married. This is excellent JJ - EXCELLENT!!!:bunny:
jj33 Posted June 24, 2010 Posted June 24, 2010 I agree with you Wheelwright sometimes they do think of moving to Spain. But the thing is their feet are still firmly planted at home. They have that lovely dreamlike fantasy of what would it be like to move to Spain? Drinking Rioja in the afternoons, looking out at the lemon trees, eating tapas and paella... ahhhh Could I move to Spain? What would I have to do to move there? What would I be giving up if I moved? Yes I think many of them think about it, but few actually do it. So to say how do you know if their feet are in both camps, I dont think they are. I think their feet are in one camp. HOME Until they get the ball rolling and start ACTUALLY making plans to move to Spain. The first part of this process is discussing the move with your wife. The daydreams and the speculation, are not signs of a foot in both camps. a long time ago an ex of mine and I discussed moving to a new country and restarting our lives there. At one point it was the Caribbean at another point it was the South of France. We had long lengthly discussions about it, what would we do how would we do it. But our feet were firmly planted at home. Just my take. I think the problem is that the question is a form of reading tea leaves. Waiting on the sidelines hoping upon hope that the "facts" can be construed as evidence of an intent to make a move jump that fence (like a baby calf). As I said in another thread today if you REALLY want to know you ask the question. You have a right to know. And if you dont know you have to assume the answer is NO. Nothing happening. I mean if someone is really considering that why wouldnt they tell the OW, the ONE person who most wants to hear the news and may provide extra special bonus sex in response to the news;)
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 24, 2010 Author Posted June 24, 2010 Edited to add I think the problem is that noone should go into an A thinking that the WS will leave. And once you find yourself thinking that, you should end it because otherwise you become that evil cheerleader on the sidelines wishing and hoping someone else's life is blown to smithereens. Not your call as to whether the marriage "should" survive. That is between the 2 people who are married. I agree entirely. I didn't have marriage counselling in my marriage, and which I had. Because I've never felt I could hold my head high and say I tried 'everything'. I tried everything BUT... Has haunted me for years. With xMM I tried to explain where couples counselling helped me in my longest relationship, how it works, what can be helped. I felt it could help them. I wanted them BOTH to be happy and had allowed myself to be convinced that xMM would never make her happy, and vice versa. I never wanted to end their marriage for them. I believed they'd checked out, I think maybe THEY even believed they had. But they hadn't. Evidently.
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 24, 2010 Author Posted June 24, 2010 SG, you seem like a really cool person BTW:D... very objective, seeing all sides. Your MM's sitch is simular to exDM sitch. I was unable to comprehend the "why's" and "how's" of it all...the reasoning and motives behind the motives. It's all very simple to me, very cut and dry...bad M, straying, well I find the exit door real quick. My heart goes out to MM's W, as I am very sure she was abused severely. SG for the life of me I could not understand why people who are clearly not happy in the right sense of the word would stay in a hurtful, abusive M. In exDM's case, they fed off of each other and the drama. ExDM was in several casual A's over the years and I think he did that to get her attention as it was a game for both of them, both ways. They would stray, get the others attention, then fight, then the honeymoon period...then start the whole process over again. By the time I came into the picture this dynamic was in full swing. I hate games, I do enter in and play at times, but hate games all the same. I saw both of their games and voiced my opinion loudly. There were times, and one time in particular that I got very angry and blurted out, "what kind of sick game are you and your W playing with me". I felt like a type of pawn in all of this. I think exDM held them at bay (his W and daughters), telling them to not mess with me, then when I cut the games off he gave the green light to attack (per se) and they all came after me...all I have to say is they are lucky I chose not to retaliate. I feel like my presence cut off the games once and for all...I am very glad that part of my life is over and gone...what a hard time that was...in all aspects of my life at that time... Aw, thanks PIH, back atcha It's nice to hear when someone understands, but it's also awful to know that othrs have the same pain, confusion etc. How awful for you to be caught up in that cycle. xMM and his wife are very quiet people, very dignified and private, and yet I think (am sure in my own mind) this cycle is going to continue. For the rest of their lives. It is very sad, but I guess you and I can feel happy for ourselves we're not feeding it and playing a role in their private little dance. Sorry you had to go through that.
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 24, 2010 Author Posted June 24, 2010 Silly ((hug)) please also remember, what he told you isn't necessarily the truth. It is a contradiction in what you wrote about what he says -- he says she doesn't want/like sex, but she has an affair? Huh? Remember, he needed you to believe poor little him was in such a loveless marriage..... yet he begged he to come back when she left? Again, such a contradiction!! Read so many of the posts on the infidelity board - the women whose H's had affairs where he told his mistress one thing, but reality was totally different (told the mistress he didn't have sex with the wife, yet he did almost daily!). MM are known liars, unless their wives know they are actively engaged in an affair. Thanks FO. Have spent a lot of time piecing the jigsaw. The timeline of these events. And considering everything on balance, what I saw on his phone, what we talked about, things he shared (sometimes very humiliating and extremely personal things) I've decided I'm happy to draw a line under the relationship and accept that most of what he said was the truth. His truth. But I hear you, I promise I do. And I'm not all sympathy for him, I don't believe he's a victim etc etc. He's made his own choices in life (or not!).
Author Silly_Girl Posted June 24, 2010 Author Posted June 24, 2010 Silly it seems to me that in most cases they dont have a foot in both camps. Their feet are very firmly planted in their M (in terms of staying or going) but they take little vacations outside of that camp. If you go to the gym every day, you go there, you enjoy it, but you dont live there and would never give up your life to live there. or if you go to Spain most weekends, you enjoy it but its not the place you consider to be "home". You may love Spain, you may love the weather and the food and the people but you arent giving up your life or your job or your friends to move there permanently. I think its the same with many people and their marriages. They like what the AP has to offer and what it adds to their life, but for all the flaws in the marriage, it is their touchstone and a part of their identity and they arent willing to trade it in. Ive said it before and I will say it again. Most people who have As are not looking for a new spouse. People who want a new spouse get divorced. They dont shop first the way you would with a car or a new house. Edited to add I think the problem is that noone should go into an A thinking that the WS will leave. And once you find yourself thinking that, you should end it because otherwise you become that evil cheerleader on the sidelines wishing and hoping someone else's life is blown to smithereens. Not your call as to whether the marriage "should" survive. That is between the 2 people who are married. I'm enjoying the sentiment of your post kicking around in the back of my head. I personally find it hard, similar to something I posted earlier, to objectively consider the dynamics and circumstances of those of us in these situations, and then apply it to my greatest love and I. My deficiency, but it's why I find it hard to actively agree/disagree with your view. I suspect my head sees it, but my heart remembers the relationship I was in and doesn't want to acknowledge the sense in it. That doesn't mean it doesn't help me a great deal to read and consider this stuff. It's all good.
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