First date - he didn't pay

[D-Lish]

I knew this would turn into another gender war- [[[sighhhhhh]]].

 

Here is my attitude toward paying: I always offer to pay my share. If the guy insists (and some do), that's fine with me, and I appreciate it. I will almost always force splitting the bill with someone I know I have no chemistry with because I think that's the fair way to handle it.

 

There are women that appreciate it, and women that expect it, and some that fall somewhere in between.

 

I like it when the guy makes the gesture- because as many have said, it's a gentlemanly characteristic that is really nice. However, I'll always offer my share.

 

OP, in your situation, the way he handled it was really tacky.

I wouldn't go out with a guy again that handled the situation in the same way! How were you supposed to answer that question...would anyone really blurt out- "I'd like you to pay???" You had no other answer- you had to say you'd split it. It's just how he handled it that is off-putting.

 

I don't see anything wrong with splitting bills- but I do see something wrong with how this particular guy handled things.

 

I had a date that "forgot his wallet"...and I once had a date that added up our bill to see who owed what. Both of them called again...as if!

[Mimolicious]

While I do pay for meals and all, I think your last statement may carry some degree of contradiction. I don't think any guy is going to care if he's paying for, say, a $10-$20 meal. But capability for paying a bill is where the "manhood" is tested. Otherwise it wouldn't be a problem.

 

Perhaps let me make that clear... Whether you can pay the bill or not is not the deal-breaker in my book (this is just MO) it's the way your manners come across. I was raised in a family where a gentleman opens and holds the door, stands up when he is to greet someone, pulls the chair out for a lady and gives his seat up, pays for the bill when he takes even his sister out to dinner. I am actually raising my son with the same manners. That is my heritage and I will continue to embrace it and look for those same etiquette in the person that I want to date.

[Mimolicious]

I think that's what many of us are trying to get across, but "manhood" can't be measured by a guy's choice to pay or not. I've met lots of rich guys who think nothing of dropping lots of cash, but many cannot measure up to my version of what a man should be.

 

Oh without a doubt. I agree, they can also drop lots of cash to degrade women. They have no values.

[Woggle]

Perhaps let me make that clear... Whether you can pay the bill or not is not the deal-breaker in my book (this is just MO) it's the way your manners come across. I was raised in a family where a gentleman opens and holds the door, stands up when he is to greet someone, pulls the chair out for a lady and gives his seat up, pays for the bill when he takes even his sister out to dinner. I am actually raising my son with the same manners. That is my heritage and I will continue to embrace it and look for those same etiquette in the person that I want to date.

 

That is not the way world works anymore.

[Diezel]

Perhaps let me make that clear... Whether you can pay the bill or not is not the deal-breaker in my book (this is just MO) it's the way your manners come across. I was raised in a family where a gentleman opens and holds the door, stands up when he is to greet someone, pulls the chair out for a lady and gives his seat up, pays for the bill when he takes even his sister out to dinner. I am actually raising my son with the same manners. That is my heritage and I will continue to embrace it and look for those same etiquette in the person that I want to date.

 

You're son is in for a RUDE awakening.

 

I was raised like this by a military man and all it did was get me burned... dropped for guys who DIDN'T open doors, who didn't stand up to greet people, pull out a chair, or even stand when a lady was leaving to go to the bathroom.

 

It works for my father just fine, but not for me.

 

I've actually stood up from a table when a date has stood up to go to the bathroom and I get the WEIRDEST looks ever.

 

Sorry, but my generation was the official death of the traditional gentlemen, just as the traditional housewife died as well.

[Mimolicious]

That is not the way world works anymore.

 

Says who? you? Haven't had a problem finding a men that behaves this way actually. Maybe it comes down to background but let's not get into that or else...

[Mimolicious]

You're son is in for a RUDE awakening.

 

I was raised like this by a military man and all it did was get me burned... dropped for guys who DIDN'T open doors, who didn't stand up to greet people, pull out a chair, or even stand when a lady was leaving to go to the bathroom.

 

It works for my father just fine, but not for me.

 

I've actually stood up from a table when a date has stood up to go to the bathroom and I get the WEIRDEST looks ever.

 

Sorry, but my generation was the official death of the traditional gentlemen, just as the traditional housewife died as well.

 

 

Then you just dated chicks that were already polluted by men with no manner or that don't like to be treated like a lady. To me, it actually puts a men in the "let's try him out" jar if he behaved like you.

I am 32 yrs old not from 5 decades ago either, but this is part of my culture and I will keep it alive in my family.

[marsle85]

It comes down to tradition and culture. If this is not a tradition of yours, so be it... hopefully you'll find a woman who shares the same background. Similarly, if a woman grows up with a family who's ideals stress a man's chivalry, it's likely she will marry a man who carries the same attitudes.

 

My father would be outraged to find out I paid for the first date, second date or even third. He would encourage me to reciprocate in other ways. He always paid for dates with my mother- and merely considers it a way to establish social cues within a relationship. Furthermore, mom was also traditional. She baked for him, cooked for him, etc.

 

No one is right here. It's preference.

 

In the OP's case- for me it's just a matter of cordiality. He asked her out, and regardless of whether she suggested dinner or not, he agreed.

 

Copping out because dinner was HER idea is just petty and rather frugal. Com'on now.

 

You can't measure the worth of buying someone dinner based on how much you like them. Sure, you don't have to see them again- but he was meeting up with her for the exact same reasons she was. He wanted to see her, too. She risked not liking him too. Mutual risk.

[Woggle]

Says who? you? Haven't had a problem finding a men that behaves this way actually. Maybe it comes down to background but let's not get into that or else...

 

Says the world. It is 2010 and chivalry is dead. Boys raised this way are in for a rude awakening when they get out and have to deal with real women. The dorty little secret is that the gentlmen are the ones who end up getting chewed up and spit by modern women.

[Ruby Slippers]

but to expect a guy to pay for your 'company' is a little over the top.. who do you (women in general) think you are.. ???

This is hilarious coming from you.

[skydiveaddict]

It comes down to tradition and culture. .

 

Well said. If you ask a girl out then you should pay. I would be completely embarrassed to ask a girl to chip in, so tacky

[Woggle]

This is hilarious coming from you.

 

Why? I don't see her demanding princess treatment from men. They want to mess around and she is willing to oblige them but I never see her getting angry because a man denied her her rightful entitlement to be catered to because she is female.

[skydiveaddict]

Woggle, it's just good manners to pay for her , especially on the first date

[aerogurl87]

that is your boyfriend, not a first date. to entirely different scenarios.

 

My boyfriend did pay for our first date though. And yes we met online. Same with my ex, whom I interestingly enough met online. Some men are just more traditional I guess and I like that. With that said, a person you meet online and converse with through emails, texts, and phone calls is less of a stranger than a person you meet in person who randomly asks you out. Yes they could lie, but you have some common ground to go off of with that person moreso than if you were to just invite a random guy/girl out for drinks. So IMO that kinda makes it worse as you've had time to get to know that person and what they expect beforehand (most people are a little more upfront about what they want when it comes to online dating).

[Bangle]

I will happily pay for the first date, but if a woman continually expects me to pay for her then she won't hear from again. Too many women scream for independence and then men allow them to exercise their independence they scream "scrooge". Make up your minds lol.

[A O]

Some men are just more traditional I guess and I like that.

They're simply slaves to tradition, as many, if not most men are. We're not the brightest gender at times. And if you're the one fulfilling or wanting to fulfill all the traditional roles like staying home and being in the kitchen then absolutely - you should expect your man to pay. One would think it would be a necessity more than an expectation in this case anyhow.

 

 

.

[Lizzie60]

This is hilarious coming from you.

 

I don't see anything hilarious.. as I don't see any difference between me and those women who want men to pay for the date.. just because they are women..

[Blade Runner]

This thread has become epic. If a guy specifically says "Hey, I want to take you out for dinner" - or something along those lines, then maybe the guy should pay, not because she's a woman, or a date, just because they're practically strangers, and if you invite a stranger out on a specific dinner, it's polite to pay.

 

Thinking about it some more, I think it's a nice gesture. But I also don't think it's a red flag if the guy doesn't pay. I mean it really depends on how the initial arrangement was worked out. A few subtle words here and there can give the date a different kind of meeting. (Let's grab a bite to eat together or something vs I want to take you out for dinner).

 

Regarding all this Gentlemen stuff. I hold doors open for everybody, I don't care if it's a three year old kid, a seventy year old man or a stone fox. What I won't do is run ahead and open the door for some girl if she's got two free hands. I'll give up my seat in public transport for guys or girls of any age. I'll offer to carry things if I see someone struggling, etc etc etc.

 

So the issue for me is never a gender specific thing. I just try to do nice things for people anyway, personally. Would I have paid for the dinner? Probably, but then again I wouldn't ask a stranger out to a restraunt or cafe because I find the whole thing awkward.

 

To be fair though, I know a lot of guys who used to buy girls drinks, dinners, be the gentlemen, only to be tossed aside for some buff idiot with too much hairgel and a wifebeater who pays for nothing. And this is not just a "every now and then". This is all the damn time. And you can argue that it's because that girl has had a bad stretch of guys and it's their fault blah blah blah, but seriously. Can you blame the guys?

 

I rarely do the clubbing or bar thing, but everytime I do, I see this one complete stone fox walk into the bar right, and I watch as fifteen guys one by one try their luck. Half of them have wingmen. ("he's a real nice guy, honestly. (Yeah, because that makes it true). The others just try and buy her a drink. Often, she takes the free drink, hangs out with the guy for a minute, then is like "Hey so I gotta meet my friends. Bye!". Poor guy. That's kind of a different situation but it's the beginning of a big change for a lot of guys which can lead to paying for absolutely nothing, dinners included. By the way I'm not saying it's her fault, because let's be honest, if you're a beautiful woman and everywhere you go you get 100 stupid hallmark compliments, you're gonna get bored quick. So who's more fun, the nice happy go lucky chap who buys you a drink or the mysterious guy on the other side of the bar who hasn't even glanced at you once the whole time? (Of course some girls will prefer the really nice guy, but just because she likes nice guys doesn't mean she likes *Every* nice guy)

 

I don't want to turn this into a "nice guys finish last" because there's a lot more to it than that. ie a lot of guys that consider themselves to be "nice" also appear very boring. Sometimes an extreme impression, or not the favourable choice is better than "So uh...you come here often?". So that's why those jerks often get these girls. Not because they're jerks, but because often they're great at meeting and talking to women. It's not til a bit later that they find out he's a jerk and sometimes it's too late by then.

 

But anyway, I think this is an interesting issue, it's certainly raised some epic discussion here.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Blade Runner

[Pyro]

Says the world. It is 2010 and chivalry is dead. Boys raised this way are in for a rude awakening when they get out and have to deal with real women. The dorty little secret is that the gentlmen are the ones who end up getting chewed up and spit by modern women.

 

in your limited view of the world it is dead. In the real world it still exists. I'll admit that its not common but its still out there.

 

I don't recall being chewed up.

[IceIceBaby]

Wow I can't believe what a discussion this had turned into! I'm not sure I can even answer all of the questions that were asked.

 

To whoever asked who's idea was dinner...well this is how it played out. He asked me if I was doing anything on Tuesday and if I would like to go out. I said yes. He asked if there was anything in particular I would like to do. I said that the weather would be nice and I wouldn't mind grabbing a drink somewhere with outdoor seating. He suggested this restaurant, so we went there. We had drinks and ended up getting hungry and ordered food. It was pretty mutual planning, so I'm not sure how I could have determined who actually did the asking/planning and hence who is responsible to pay apparently.

 

I really don't have the mindset that my time is worth something or that I should be treated like a princess. As I said before, unfortunately going dutch is how it started with my ex and before I knew it I was treating him to dinner and then when we'd get to the movie theater he'd go up to the counter and buy one ticket. So this is a bit of a sore spot for me. Couple that with friends and family telling me a guy should treat (especially on the first date), and it got me thinking.

 

Regardless I think it would be pretty extreme of me to never speak to this guy again because of this. There was good chemistry so I'm willing to go on a second date and see how it goes. We'll see what happens!

[Woggle]

in your limited view of the world it is dead. In the real world it still exists. I'll admit that its not common but its still out there.

 

I don't recall being chewed up.

 

There are certain women that appreciate it but a man should get to know that before he does it. You don't just go around being a gentlemen to every woman you meet.

[Pyro]

There are certain women that appreciate it but a man should get to know that before he does it. You don't just go around being a gentlemen to every woman you meet.

 

 

So be a D-bag from the get go?

 

Nothing wrong with being a gentleman. I am polite and kind when I first meet someone. If they are the same way back then I will continue to do so. They give me a reason not to and I will stop, simple as that.

[marsle85]

There are certain women that appreciate it but a man should get to know that before he does it. You don't just go around being a gentlemen to every woman you meet.

 

 

Umm, that is the most warped thing I've ever heard. A true "nice guy" or "gentleman" does not turn on his kindness, or generosity based on whether HE is getting something back.

 

That is NOT how kindness works. Nothing about kindness is conditional.

[Diezel]

Wow I can't believe what a discussion this had turned into! I'm not sure I can even answer all of the questions that were asked.

 

To whoever asked who's idea was dinner...well this is how it played out. He asked me if I was doing anything on Tuesday and if I would like to go out. I said yes. He asked if there was anything in particular I would like to do. I said that the weather would be nice and I wouldn't mind grabbing a drink somewhere with outdoor seating. He suggested this restaurant, so we went there. We had drinks and ended up getting hungry and ordered food. It was pretty mutual planning, so I'm not sure how I could have determined who actually did the asking/planning and hence who is responsible to pay apparently.

 

I really don't have the mindset that my time is worth something or that I should be treated like a princess. As I said before, unfortunately going dutch is how it started with my ex and before I knew it I was treating him to dinner and then when we'd get to the movie theater he'd go up to the counter and buy one ticket. So this is a bit of a sore spot for me. Couple that with friends and family telling me a guy should treat (especially on the first date), and it got me thinking.

 

Regardless I think it would be pretty extreme of me to never speak to this guy again because of this. There was good chemistry so I'm willing to go on a second date and see how it goes. We'll see what happens!

 

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.

 

To be honest, it being a mutual decision and the clear intention NOT being dinner, it's a grey area. Had he clearly said: I want to take you out to DINNER, then it's fully intended that HE should pay.

 

If the first and only intention was drinks... I'd normally go dutch.

 

I'll agree with posters about the manner in which he brought it up. It lacked class. But I'll also agree with other posters that men shouldn't be expected to pay for dinner on a first date when it's a stranger. Why should we be expected to shell out 60 bucks on a person who might not return our phone calls in a day or two? Again, I'm making a clear distinction between him saying "I want to take you to dinner" and not saying it.

 

If you liked him enough, let HIM take the lead for everything and then measure his actions accordingly.

 

If your ex went dutch on EVERYTHING, that's ridiculous. Whenever I am with my girlfriend, we pretty much take turns. And we've done that since date #3. If I paid for a dinner on #4, she paid for the entire date #5, so on and so forth, and it's worked out pretty well.

 

Again, assuming there is a Date#2, HE will be asking you out, let him take the lead on everything and measure whether his lead implies a 50-50 at ALL times or whether this time he's willing to take the lead financially as well. I've always been under the train of thought that if I made the invite PLUS I suggested the place, time, activity... then I should be more than willing to foot the bill.

 

In your case, there are many variables and grey areas.

[IceIceBaby]

Well he's already planning date #2 and I'm letting him plan it all. But if his style is going dutch all the time...I guess then I'll just have to decide where I want to go with it.