Mea Culpa

[wheelwright]

Think I was TJing previously.

 

So, if you 'know' (are told in no uncertain terms) that the M is dead as a corpse in a B movie, should you (the AP) feel the moral guilt that an A would would normally bring?

 

Like, any hurt after DDay (for BS) is waking up hurt, and you (BS) have already said you'd leave him given the chance of love, before you thought he may leave you?

 

I think the BSs concerned don't remember how much they hated their MP pre-A, or were indifferent or whatever.

 

I think power is important here. When their power was unquestioned, they (the BS) were happy to say they never loved. When the power of their position is called into question, it's all 'I've always loved him'.

 

I've talked to many wonderful BSs here. But I am feeling bad about my particular circumstance. He broke my heart, so allow this without bashing!

[califnan]

Think I was TJing previously.

 

So, if you 'know' (are told in no uncertain terms) that the M is dead as a corpse in a B movie, should you (the AP) feel the moral guilt that an A would would normally bring?

 

Like, any hurt after DDay (for BS) is waking up hurt, and you (BS) have already said you'd leave him given the chance of love, before you thought he may leave you?

 

I think the BSs concerned don't remember how much they hated their MP pre-A, or were indifferent or whatever.

 

I think power is important here. When their power was unquestioned, they (the BS) were happy to say they never loved. When the power of their position is called into question, it's all 'I've always loved him'.

 

I've talked to many wonderful BSs here. But I am feeling bad about my particular circumstance. He broke my heart, so allow this without bashing!

 

---------------------

 

I think the AP's or OW/OM make themselves feel that they are also the rescuers ..

 

Any problems in the marriage are magnified to the OW/OM to further their position.

 

Nothing like the good ol finalization of divorce papers to keep everything cleaner.. and Without Questioning ..

[BB07]

I don't know your story wheelwright, but if the marriage was dead as they said it was, then what was the reason or excuse they gave as to why they were still married?

[silktricks]

Think I was TJing previously.

 

So, if you 'know' (are told in no uncertain terms) that the M is dead as a corpse in a B movie, should you (the AP) feel the moral guilt that an A would would normally bring?

 

Like, any hurt after DDay (for BS) is waking up hurt, and you (BS) have already said you'd leave him given the chance of love, before you thought he may leave you?

 

I think the BSs concerned don't remember how much they hated their MP pre-A, or were indifferent or whatever.

 

I think power is important here. When their power was unquestioned, they (the BS) were happy to say they never loved. When the power of their position is called into question, it's all 'I've always loved him'.

 

I've talked to many wonderful BSs here. But I am feeling bad about my particular circumstance. He broke my heart, so allow this without bashing!

 

I can understand that if you hear from both husband and wife that the marriage is dead and over, that you could think it must be OK then to be involved with him.

 

However, I think you've found through personal and painful experience that what is said in the heat and/or sadness of a moment, may not really hold true. The fact is, they were still married. It's been a painful lesson for you, but a marriage often has ups and downs, sometimes the downs lead to divorce, but sometimes they do not. And sometimes we hear what we want to hear...

 

Regardless, though of what you heard and what you (and he) did, it's time for you to forgive yourself and move on. Leave the guilt behind, keep the lesson learned, forgive yourself and move on into your own future.

[SidLyon]

Think I was TJing previously.

 

So, if you 'know' (are told in no uncertain terms) that the M is dead as a corpse in a B movie, should you (the AP) feel the moral guilt that an A would would normally bring?

 

Like, any hurt after DDay (for BS) is waking up hurt, and you (BS) have already said you'd leave him given the chance of love, before you thought he may leave you?

 

I think the BSs concerned don't remember how much they hated their MP pre-A, or were indifferent or whatever.

 

I think power is important here. When their power was unquestioned, they (the BS) were happy to say they never loved. When the power of their position is called into question, it's all 'I've always loved him'.

 

I've talked to many wonderful BSs here. But I am feeling bad about my particular circumstance. He broke my heart, so allow this without bashing!

 

I can see you are hurting and want to say to you that if you know for certain, then yes it's OK. That is probably what you want to hear.

 

I know that is what my H told OW about us, and from reading these boards it's not uncommon. I know you think your situation is a little different as you heard it from the BW too. I never bitched to my friends about my H, but I know plenty of women that do.

 

Sadly as many of us on all sides of the triangle discover (usually around d-day) what we thought was truth, was not. The marriage is very salvageable or resurrectable or like a Phoenix can rise from the ashes.

This is something as a BW in a recovering marriage I am learning, somewhat surprisingly, to my delight.

 

There are lessons here to all parties about the nature of love and the strength of longstanding bonds.

[seren]

No bashing here Wheelwright, hurt is hurt. I know (from OW) that she thought H had said our marriage was over, I know from a reflective OW that what he had said was that our M was on it's a***. I know from H, that he thought our M was and that he he didn't know how to sort it out (obviously an A was not the right way).

 

When speaking with OW, I explained that a M is only really over when both people in that M understand it to be so and have really talked about it. Otherwise it is just one person's view. Of course if H was so unhappy then the M would be over as he would leave, ditto for me. I never left my M as I always have and always will love H. There was never a blinkers off moment where I thought OMG, someone else wants him, I must fight for him, hard fact is, had he wanted OW, then he was told, by me, to go. I could never knowingly agree to H seeing someone else, nor would I live with him by default.

 

There was, however, a wake up moment for us both, when we both realised that we had let things slip and the realisation of what that could mean, meant that we both worked on it. There was and is no power trip, it is our marriage, it is love and it always has been.

 

I can, however, feel empathy of the OW as she based her understanding of the A on what she heard and was led to believe. I know she was hurt, I feel no power knowing that, I just feel sad, sad for her, sad for me, sad for H. Truth is if we just stopped thinking of the people involved in an A, stopped thinking of labels and just saw it for what it was, someone is always going to be hurt. I am sorry in your instance, that you are hurting, but a marriage is only over when both people in that marriage have talked about it and decided it is.

[Spark1111]

I know there is complacency in marriage; automatic pilot, when you both feel so stymied that your needs will never be met; that any discussion leads to argument and frustration and you cannot get out of this box for the longest time.

 

I think it makes both parties vulnerable to affairs or divorce or the contemplation or fantasy of such; the grass MUST be greener elsewhere.

 

And I remain amazed at those (myself, included) who think they know HOW to do relationships well pre-affair.....

 

IT TAKES TWO, FULLY-INVESTED PARTNERS TO MAKE A RELATIONSHIP FLY RIGHT!

 

My perception: He checked out emotionally from me, us, WAY before he had crashed into her. I begged and pleaded for counseling, communication, you name it.

 

So had I been having a cup of coffee with you pre-affair, WW, I too would have told you my marriage sucked, because it did big time.

 

But I still waited? hoped for? prayed for? that man to willingly turn back to me, pull up his sleeves and get to work on us.

 

I am sorry, not as sorry as he is, that is took a DDay, for him to be willing to do so.

 

What is really sad? Some people have to almost lose everything, before they realize they almost threw it all away with both hands.

 

And THAT, is not your fault.

[silktricks]

 

I think the BSs concerned don't remember how much they hated their MP pre-A, or were indifferent or whatever.

 

I think power is important here. When their power was unquestioned, they (the BS) were happy to say they never loved. When the power of their position is called into question, it's all 'I've always loved him'.

I didn't really take note of this part until I read Seren's post.

 

I can tell you I never hated my husband, and there was no power involved. I always loved him. He didn't realize it - but there were influences at work that made him think I didn't love him. Mostly it was his own view of himself that led him to believe it - so when someone fawned over him it made him feel better.

 

I hope you get to feeling better Wheelwright.

[califnan]

 

He broke my heart

 

-------------------------

 

You broke your heart.

[BB07]

Wheelwright.....I don't mean to sound cold and callous, in fact I know you are hurting and I've been there too. You are trying to make sense of a situation that doesn't make sense, but......when it's all said and done, the whys and what you thought at that time, don't really matter now, do they? Most of the time in these situations (affairs), what we thought was reality is most often not the way it really was. When it hits us in the face, it's like a cold splash or water and it's really hard to deal with.

 

Hugs.........

[Snowflower]

 

I think the BSs concerned don't remember how much they hated their MP pre-A, or were indifferent or whatever.

 

I think power is important here. When their power was unquestioned, they (the BS) were happy to say they never loved. When the power of their position is called into question, it's all 'I've always loved him'.

 

I've talked to many wonderful BSs here. But I am feeling bad about my particular circumstance. He broke my heart, so allow this without bashing!

 

Oh WW, I'm sorry you're still hurting.

 

I know you and I have talked about this before via PM. And it is sad that his W told you that she didn't love him before the A. I can almost understand why you felt it was "okay" to become involved with him. But either way, they were still in a relationship together and who knows what the truth really was for her. Maybe they had had a rough patch. Maybe he had been mean to her that morning when she told you that.

 

I too, had questioned my marriage pre-affair. My H and I had gotten married very young, didn't know each other well, even though I know without a doubt that we loved each other on our wedding day. Fast-forward a lot of years, a lot of "living" and it seems natural that one/both spouses would question the marriage and the feelings for the other spouse.

 

Even in the best of marriages I think there are times of doubt.

 

I sort of agree with the statement that an A can be a wake-up call for a marriage. D-day puts both spouses into a "do or die' mindset and that is when hard decisions are made. The marriage (and both partners) are all out there on the examination table and there are no shadows or hidden truths. It's all there, the good, the bad, and the ugly.

 

But either way though, their marriage continues. I know it has to hurt. But please, quit wasting your emotional energy on their marriage. Take care of you and what do you want to do about YOUR marriage? No matter what, you have your own life to live and own path to follow.

[bentnotbroken]

Think I was TJing previously.

 

So, if you 'know' (are told in no uncertain terms) that the M is dead as a corpse in a B movie, should you (the AP) feel the moral guilt that an A would would normally bring?

 

Like, any hurt after DDay (for BS) is waking up hurt, and you (BS) have already said you'd leave him given the chance of love, before you thought he may leave you?

 

I think the BSs concerned don't remember how much they hated their MP pre-A, or were indifferent or whatever.

 

I think power is important here. When their power was unquestioned, they (the BS) were happy to say they never loved. When the power of their position is called into question, it's all 'I've always loved him'.

 

I've talked to many wonderful BSs here. But I am feeling bad about my particular circumstance. He broke my heart, so allow this without bashing!

 

 

Not only do I remember how much I hated his guts, if dwell on it I can still taste the hate. My only problem here is this...no matter what the emotions between the 2 married people are....they are still married. An AP is still the outsider in a marriage. They are still not married to the WS. A marriage is between 2 people and only 2. If you aren't one of the 2, then you need stay away until there is no longer a marriage. Whether you respect your marriage or not, their marriage or not, you still have no right being in that dynamic.

[Spark1111]

WW, you are looking for reasons of why she took him back....or did not relinquish him to your love...or, in expressing hatred for him, is now exercising some power over you by thwarting your love.....

 

She probably did nothing of the sort....She is a deflection of where your anger truly belongs....at your MM and yourself.

 

It's similiar to when BS aim their shotguns too long and too hard at the OW/OM; they were simply a symptom, not the cause, IMHO.

 

But then again, maybe it's a good thing, in that you are starting to have some anger, and maybe are starting to rewrite your affair history...it's normal, and can certainly be the start of some productive growth.

 

But power? After DDAY? I can't think of a time I felt LESS power in my entire life.... I can't think of a single time my WS seemed like LESS of a prize to be won than the discovery of his affair.

 

And maybe she hated him for the man he was then....the way he treated her, or ignored her, or whatever.

 

But they are married, and they are obviously working it out, and as hard and painful as this may be, he is where he wants to be. She is too.

 

So, where does WW want to be a month, a year, 10 years from now? Still nursing her broken heart? Or living an authentically happy life?

Think about it.....

[OWoman]

I think the BSs concerned don't remember how much they hated their MP pre-A, or were indifferent or whatever.

 

I think power is important here. When their power was unquestioned, they (the BS) were happy to say they never loved. When the power of their position is called into question, it's all 'I've always loved him'.

 

While this was true in my H's xW's case, I'd guess it wasn't the norm.

 

WW, separate yourself from their toxic dynamics. Miring yourself in trying to understand what went down there will keep you ensnared in a very unhealthy place. Rejoice in your own health and sanity!

 

(((hugs)))

[Silly_Girl]

WW, I have tried to look back through your threads but have had some connection problems and will try again another time. But I love what you write and often find it reassuring/familiar in some way.

 

Unconnected to the infidelity scenario, many years ago I decided that if I had made a decision believing it to be the right one at the time, and had GENUINELY weighed up the situation, then no one, especially not me, had the right to blame me or apportion any guilt. We can only make the decision as we see fit at the time. Subsequent facts don't change the person we were and the circumstances we were in at the time.

 

I had a lot of years of feeling quite comfortable with that principle and it worked for me through a lot of things. (All things, in fact, except my 3 significant relationships .) I chose to expel ex-friends from my life (later reunited); took risks with my job (and have always been the main earner in my relationships); decided to have invasive surgery with risks; took difficult family decisions (family versus bio-parent for example); and other things and all of those things, even when I turned out to be wrong, I didn't 'regret', I simply accepted that I made the best decision at the time and subsequent events merely proved it wasn't the optimal choice.

 

I think you really need to forgive yourself. You won't be able to learn from the relationship or move on if you don't. There is nothing more you can do for the other parties in your situation, and nor should you.

 

I wish for you that the hurt and the guilt could be processed separately.

((W))

[silverplanets]

I know there is complacency in marriage; automatic pilot, when you both feel so stymied that your needs will never be met; that any discussion leads to argument and frustration and you cannot get out of this box for the longest time.

 

I think it makes both parties vulnerable to affairs or divorce or the contemplation or fantasy of such; the grass MUST be greener elsewhere.

 

And I remain amazed at those (myself, included) who think they know HOW to do relationships well pre-affair.....

 

IT TAKES TWO, FULLY-INVESTED PARTNERS TO MAKE A RELATIONSHIP FLY RIGHT!

 

My perception: He checked out emotionally from me, us, WAY before he had crashed into her. I begged and pleaded for counseling, communication, you name it.

 

So had I been having a cup of coffee with you pre-affair, WW, I too would have told you my marriage sucked, because it did big time.

 

But I still waited? hoped for? prayed for? that man to willingly turn back to me, pull up his sleeves and get to work on us.

 

I am sorry, not as sorry as he is, that is took a DDay, for him to be willing to do so.

 

What is really sad? Some people have to almost lose everything, before they realize they almost threw it all away with both hands.

 

And THAT, is not your fault.

 

Wow spark this is a GREAT post ... I tried to bold which parts really stood out but it all does ... it's probably the most succint summary that I have ever read of the marriage situation around a typical affair ...

 

No real blame anywhere just a marriage with no communication, no one knowing how to get out of it, an A, FINALLY something so serious that H and W have to talk seriously and honestly ... and, if all goes well, a moving onto a new type of relationship where H and W are both in it "conciously"

 

... and I love the implication for the AP as well ...

 

it was NEVER about the AP .... even from day one ....

 

just a H and W in difficulties and neither knowing how to break the deadlock ...

 

Striking post

Chris

 

[Spark1111]

Wow spark this is a GREAT post ... I tried to bold which parts really stood out but it all does ... it's probably the most succint summary that I have ever read of the marriage situation around a typical affair ...

 

No real blame anywhere just a marriage with no communication, no one knowing how to get out of it, an A, FINALLY something so serious that H and W have to talk seriously and honestly ... and, if all goes well, a moving onto a new type of relationship where H and W are both in it "conciously"

 

... and I love the implication for the AP as well ...

 

it was NEVER about the AP .... even from day one ....

 

just a H and W in difficulties and neither knowing how to break the deadlock ...

 

Striking post

Chris

 

 

Thank you Chris!

 

"Deadlock;" Perfect term to describe the situation.

 

There is also some evidence to suggest that the WS has checked out of the marriage emotionally way before the Affair begins; they feel hopeless regarding the marriage; hopeless it will ever change.

 

The BS has two options: to persevere, hopeful it will change for the better; or resigning themselves to the status quo.

 

Both partners need "tools," of compassion,, communication, and respect to break the deadlock.

 

I am amazed that if marriage is 95% responsible for a person's happiness, or lack there of, why there is so little education on HOW to have a good relationship.

 

Seems like it should be mandatory, IMO. It would surely save a lot of heartache.

[Silly_Girl]

I know I'm in danger of imprinting my 'take' on it... But, here goes. What about if the couple have never communicated to any depth, fell in to a marriage due to a number of reasons (same social circle, background/education, age, it was 'about time' etc) but have never been intimately involved.... I susppose it's not a deadlock in the same way as Spark/SP state, but a mutually accepted situation.

 

Which, I guess, leaves them both with the decision to continue to accept it for the next 30/40/50 years, or leave.

 

I know my xMM found it hard to convey he needed more from his wife now than he had previously been prepared to accept; and she refused to change anything (in particular sex-wise). Which is why I thought confessing about the affair (post-me) would be the only option for him/his marriage. He disagreed. It's the old adage isn't it, keep putting the same in, you'll only ever get the same out, something has to change.

 

If only 'something' didn't involve infidelity.

[torranceshipman]

If a M is as dead as a corpse, then by definition a Divorce must happening. If it isn't, then the MM is utterly lying to you.

[wheelwright]

For some indefinable reason this is the thread I have started that has instigated the most compassionate responses in my time on LS.

 

It must have spoken of the multiway hurt best. When I wrote it I thought it would get the most bashing. I was scared!

 

Despite what I was told by BS/herWS, I feel silly now that I didn't see the importance of M in the minds and lives of people who decried those Ms in talk. I judged it by how I would talk.

 

I feel xMOM and his BS felt love for one another. I am very sorry they did not see that at the time. Because it made me invest in a R in a way I should not have.

 

I guess in an A that doesn't work out, it's partly about recognising what you were told was not true. For all parties.

 

The replies on this thread have been nothing short of fantastic, shared pain, experience, wisdom, understanding.

[SidLyon]

For some indefinable reason this is the thread I have started that has instigated the most compassionate responses in my time on LS.

 

It must have spoken of the multiway hurt best. When I wrote it I thought it would get the most bashing. I was scared!

 

Despite what I was told by BS/herWS, I feel silly now that I didn't see the importance of M in the minds and lives of people who decried those Ms in talk. I judged it by how I would talk.

 

I feel xMOM and his BS felt love for one another. I am very sorry they did not see that at the time. Because it made me invest in a R in a way I should not have.

 

I guess in an A that doesn't work out, it's partly about recognising what you were told was not true. For all parties.

 

The replies on this thread have been nothing short of fantastic, shared pain, experience, wisdom, understanding.

 

I'm glad you found the responses mainly helpful and understanding.

 

To summarise, I suppose the point is that no matter what is said about a marriage by either a H or a W; unless you (the generic you ie any person contemplating becoming an OW) receive an invitation from both parties to enter into a triangle within the marriage then you (the generic you again) cannot assume that you will be welcome to help deliver the final death blow to a M that may appear all but dead.

[datura_noir]

My H went around telling people in his family, and his close friends that we were over, about 6-8 months before DDay. I remember seeing a wedding invite in the mail to his neice's wedding, only inviting him. I noticed mutual friends avoiding "us", and only welcoming him to their home. I asked him why I hadn't been included (pre-dday), and he replied that it was an issue of finances, or just timing and distance. He made me feel as if I were paranoid or imagining slights of propriety that weren't there. All the while, he initiated and orchestrated the whole thing, telling people that we had mutually come to a decision to end, but that they shouldn't mention it to me because I was still "sensitive" about the whole thing.

 

It hurt me that he thought we were through; we had never even had a conversation, or any conflict-until I initiated it close to dday...

 

I can't understand that mindset and I never will...he was unwilling to share his feelings with me. I'm not difficult to approach, and I am very sensitive to people.

 

If you had asked me at that time if I loved him; I probably would have said "I don't know", but I would have meant "not in the same way I did". He would have (and did) say the same.

 

Long term relationships are very intricate and much more intimate than most people think; even those involved in them.

 

So I guess you can see now how people can manipulate their circumstances...And say things honestly from the heart that may be in the moment, but not quite the whole picture.

 

Dang, I feel like a fool now...

[datura_noir]

Sorry, this post was meant for another forum ...

[ComputerJock]

WW - you mentioned you H stood by you, and I was wondering if he is still by your side or did the two of you decide a divorce was the better move.

 

ComputerJock

[pureinheart]

My H went around telling people in his family, and his close friends that we were over, about 6-8 months before DDay. I remember seeing a wedding invite in the mail to his neice's wedding, only inviting him. I noticed mutual friends avoiding "us", and only welcoming him to their home. I asked him why I hadn't been included (pre-dday), and he replied that it was an issue of finances, or just timing and distance. He made me feel as if I were paranoid or imagining slights of propriety that weren't there. All the while, he initiated and orchestrated the whole thing, telling people that we had mutually come to a decision to end, but that they shouldn't mention it to me because I was still "sensitive" about the whole thing.

 

It hurt me that he thought we were through; we had never even had a conversation, or any conflict-until I initiated it close to dday...

 

I can't understand that mindset and I never will...he was unwilling to share his feelings with me. I'm not difficult to approach, and I am very sensitive to people.

 

If you had asked me at that time if I loved him; I probably would have said "I don't know", but I would have meant "not in the same way I did". He would have (and did) say the same.

 

Long term relationships are very intricate and much more intimate than most people think; even those involved in them.

 

So I guess you can see now how people can manipulate their circumstances...And say things honestly from the heart that may be in the moment, but not quite the whole picture.

 

Dang, I feel like a fool now...

 

 

Your not the fool...he is...your post really touched my heart, as I have been there...and FTR you posted where you were supposed to.

 

At times we need a wake up call, where that leads depends on both parties as one cannot carry the entire M.