Author lolapalooza Posted June 21, 2010 Author Posted June 21, 2010 I can't speak for anybody else, but I've never needed any excuses, nor to "justify" my behaviour, because I don't consider my behaviour to need excusing nor justifying. If it doesn't gel with someone else's moral code, that is THEIR problem and not mine. My behaviour is perfectly legal, it causes more good than harm and it is consistent with my own moral code. I don't need some ancient text dictated by a sky pixie to tell me how I should or shouldn't behave.While I don't agree with you, I thank you for FINALLY answering the topic at hand, and not derailing my thread any further.
Hazyhead Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 Quoting selectively doesn't change what I wrote: No amount of twisting changes that. The BWs know their MMs has GFs on the side. They are prepared to accept that AS LONG AS HE DOES NOT DISRESPECT THEM BY BRINGING THE GF/s INTO HER HOUSE, HER WORKPLACE or anywhere else where she physically has to confront the reality of their existence. So long as she can ignore their presence, and pretend to herself that they don't exist, she's willing to accept things as they stand. Apologies for misunderstanding. I'm still not sure on the word 'acceptance'; to me, it's more tolerance. I guess I perceive the word differently to you.
MizFit Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 The country thing was just given as an example, but I see it has been taken and used as a diversion from the real issue, which was: why do OW's make so many excuses to justify their behavior? Here's two more "excuses" I could have listed: "It just happened." "But we are sooooo in loooooove." The excuses themselves are not important. The reasoning behind them is. It has not been used as a diversion...you can go back to the beginning of this thread and see that I have answered each and every one of your questions. Past that there were things that people responded to me about and it sparked a debate...it kept going, but since you put it into the mix it is legitimately part of the thread. Justify...no. I have nothing to justify and if I did it would be to myself, not on a forum. Excuses...reasons...one person will say 'he has an excuse' and he will say 'I have a reason'...who are you, or any of us, to second guess what a person means.
MizFit Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 I will agree with you that I've read more than my share of excuses. I think anyone that doesn't want to give something up will do whatever's necessary to keep it. There's a BS on this board whose husband has done awful things. Refuses to stop the A, etc etc. Yet, the BS has given every excuse in the book, though absolutely everyone has told her to leave. What is it inside her that makes her want to stay in that unhappy, destructive M? Something within her can't let it go. If you were to ask the OW in this situation why she's still there, I think you'd probably get a lot of excuses there too. This hasn't really answered your question. I guess people will make up a lot of things when they are doing something they know they shouldn't be doing, or is against society's norms. And just as often people who can't or won't debate a point will bull through with an emphatic 'it's wrong' and make sure that everyone hears their view...I would personally hate to be that close minded.
donnamaybe Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 And just as often people who can't or won't debate a point will bull through with an emphatic 'it's wrong' and make sure that everyone hears their view...I would personally hate to be that close minded. But you are. Your views are foisted upon others of differing viewpoints with great gusto. Just because you're okay being with a cheater doesn't make you open minded.
MizFit Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 Originally Posted by lolapalooza I was here a few months ago to try to read and learn. I didn't care for the atmosphere on a certain forum, so lurked and then moved on. Out of curiosity (and a little hope I guess) I came back. Nothing has changed. Just more excuses. "My behavior is perfectly acceptable in my country." "Our relationship is okay because we love each other." "I'm not the one cheating, so I'm not hurting anyone." Where's the personal responsibility? -There is none. As others have suggested, "self-preservation" and "self-entitlement" are just a couple of possible driving factors. When people are ONLY thinking of THEMSELVES, there is NO sense of 'personal responsibility' to anyone else. It's all about THEM, what feels good to THEM, what makes THEM happy, what THEY want, etc. There could be a million different reasons, and combination of reasons, as to WHY an adult is so SELF-oriented...and can have selective denial about their personal responsibility in participating in something so obviously hurtful to others (BS & children.) I have no selective denial in my personal responsibility...I am responsible for myself and the people I love and everyone else is the same for themselves and their people. I hate to tell you this, but there's nothing 'wrong' with me and I'm far from a selfish person. I happen to have a different viewpoint and it revolves around the WS owning the responsibility of what he does to his family-totally. I've hashed it over a million times so I won't do it again. If anyone missed it either read previous posts or PM me. Why do they keep making excuses for one another? -Because making excuses for each other...backing each other...supporting each other...all strengthens their OWN excuses. They simply cannot state the 'ugly' reality of a fellow OW's choices and behaviors...when their own behavior is the same. It would be an admission of the 'ugliness' in their own choices and behaviors. I'd like a few examples of anyone making excuses for anyone. I see a lot of agreeing and discussing, but I can't quite see anyone making excuses for anyone. Please feel free to share that. I am not bashing, I am truly trying to understand that kind of mentality. -I am not bashing either...just stating the obvious. I think what troubles you is the depth of denial it requires for an OW/OM to participate in something which is so incredibly hurtful to another person (BS & children.) You cannot fathom it. And, the variety of creative excuses or justifications are so glaringly selfish and rediculous, that I imagine most who read them just either roll their eyes, feel sickened, disturbed, or maybe even chuckle at the obsurdity. ...because you/me/we can see right through it for what it obviously is...just bs. No bashing here...here's the true test for that. Where OW has been written, put in BS. Think how a BS might feel if these things were being said about them-maybe not what is being said, but how it's being said...if anyone dared to say some of the things about any other poster as are often put in here about OW the heavens would open. I'm not talking about from the mods perspective...I'm talking about from the different sides of the A. It always disappoints me when something that could be an excellent point of debate is dragged down to someone declaring they've won because it's 'wrong' and possibly because they yelled the loudest. The country thing was just given as an example, but I see it has been taken and used as a diversion from the real issue, which was: why do OW's make so many excuses to justify their behavior? -Yup, going off topic is a common way to avoid the real question when it is not one you want to answer. I just noticed some recent posts on this thread doing just that...switching it to the BS...and what's 'wrong' with them that they choose to stay with their WS. Classic example of taking the focus off the real issue presented by the OP in a thread. There are many threads about the BS and all the related complexities of being put in the position of learning you are a betrayed spouse. However, THIS thread is questioning why OW make so many excuses to justify their behavior. How was this off topic? It was mentioned in the OP...I responded to it and each other point in the OP...people spoke about it and it came under discussion...off topic-please explain. Here's two more "excuses" I could have listed: "It just happened." "But we are sooooo in loooooove." The excuses themselves are not important. The reasoning behind them is. My honest opinion...until I grovel and repent and tell everyone what they want to hear you won't accept a thing I say. That's fine...I'll keep saying what I choose to and I'll keep listening to everyone else and get the benefit of the wisdom of all sides...I don't have to agree with everyone to do that, but I do need to be respectful and open to what they say. My responses are underlined.
donnamaybe Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 As for this business of "only me, my loved ones, and my family" BS, does that mean it's okay to cut people off in traffic, jump to the front of the movie line, and otherwise act like a self absorbed jerk when out in the world JUST because all the people orbiting ones world aren't specifically one of their "loved ones, friends, or family?" Hogwash. This world would SUCK if everyone took that stance.
MizFit Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 But you are. Your views are foisted upon others of differing viewpoints with great gusto. Just because you're okay being with a cheater doesn't make you open minded. The difference is I'm not insisting people agree with me...I'm hoping they'll just see a viewpoint different from their own. I agree people as a whole consider infidelity as being wrong...I do. But that doesn't mean it's not accepted and part of life elsewhere. And as far as your logic on that last part of your comment...care to explain what one thing has to do with the next? As far as I can see that is just one of the things you do so well with posts...lovely lob of an insult veiled in...oh-veiled in nothing...just what you perceive to be insults...ouch. Very productive for all...not.
MizFit Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 I can't tell why a given person who claims to have no self-doubts about a behavior as emotionally-charged as infidelity, would be seeking any external validation for it. I'm assuming you're talking about me looking for external validation? Where on earth have you seen me seeking that?
donnamaybe Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 The difference is I'm not insisting people agree with me...I'm hoping they'll just see a viewpoint different from their own. I agree people as a whole consider infidelity as being wrong...I do. But that doesn't mean it's not accepted and part of life elsewhere. And as far as your logic on that last part of your comment...care to explain what one thing has to do with the next? As far as I can see that is just one of the things you do so well with posts...lovely lob of an insult veiled in...oh-veiled in nothing...just what you perceive to be insults...ouch. Very productive for all...not. No insults at all. Just an observation. Since you're not doing anything wrong in being in an A and all, how could that mere observation be any kind of an insult?
MizFit Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 As for this business of "only me, my loved ones, and my family" BS, does that mean it's okay to cut people off in traffic, jump to the front of the movie line, and otherwise act like a self absorbed jerk when out in the world JUST because all the people orbiting ones world aren't specifically one of their "loved ones, friends, or family?" Hogwash. This world would SUCK if everyone took that stance. Again, you're welcome to your opinion...I have mine. The damage on a M that is inflicted in an A is done by the WS...period. They are there to protect and nourish and if they don't then the damage belongs to them. I have never cheated and I don't believe I ever would...I also never say never because I never expected to be involved with a MM. I think I'm going to call it a day on this thread. If I have left any questions or points of discussion outstanding please feel free to PM me-that's meant for anyone.
Snowflower Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 Again, you're welcome to your opinion...I have mine. The damage on a M that is inflicted in an A is done by the WS...period. They are there to protect and nourish and if they don't then the damage belongs to them. I have never cheated and I don't believe I ever would...I also never say never because I never expected to be involved with a MM. I get your point and agree with it somewhat. However, the OP is discussing the excuses that the AP uses to get into/maintain an EMA. The point of this thread is not the WS responsibility-although they (the WS) are responsible for the lions-share of the fall-out. Putting all the blame on the WS is another way for the AP to duck responsibility, IMO.
donnamaybe Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 (edited) Again, you're welcome to your opinion...I have mine. The damage on a M that is inflicted in an A is done by the WS...period. They are there to protect and nourish and if they don't then the damage belongs to them. I have never cheated and I don't believe I ever would...I also never say never because I never expected to be involved with a MM. So it IS okay to discount the feelings of any person who isn't in your circle of friends/loved ones? Valid points have a way of making people vanish sometimes. lol Edited June 21, 2010 by donnamaybe
MadMission Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 Quoting selectively doesn't change what I wrote: No amount of twisting changes that. The BWs know their MMs has GFs on the side. They are prepared to accept that AS LONG AS HE DOES NOT DISRESPECT THEM BY BRINGING THE GF/s INTO HER HOUSE, HER WORKPLACE or anywhere else where she physically has to confront the reality of their existence. So long as she can ignore their presence, and pretend to herself that they don't exist, she's willing to accept things as they stand. OWoman, I would agree with this IF it were true of ALL BS in any particular country/culture. Just because you know of a few, or a dozen, or 100, or 10,000 BS who demonstrate what you describe above, it cannot be claimed that infideltiy is 'acceptable' in that country...because you cannot exclude the residents of that country who do not find infideltiy 'acceptable.' Of course, it is acceptable to all MM/MW/OW/OM...and maybe there are some, even many, BS who are ok with their WS engaging in an A for whatever reason. But, these particular BS are NOT representative of ALL BS. And, actually, those BS who tollerate it may be in the minority. And, even IF they are the majority of BS...it would still be incorrect to say that infidelity is 'acceptable' in that country...because of those who reside in that country who find it totally unacceptable. I am not talking about the definition of 'acceptable'...as you noted a difference between 'acceptable' and 'embracing it' in a previous post. I can appreciate that distinction. However, I am simply addressing the claim that OP stated regarding the excuse "because it is acceptable in my country" being used by some OW here on SI. It IS lame when it is used as an excuse because...it's absurd to make an assumption that it is acceptable to all residents of any country without giving consideration to those individual BS who find it utterly unacceptable.
jennie-jennie Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 And also to remain the center of attention. Your post got me thinking about why some old timers say they prefer LS over a site that supports their controversial opinion. If they are all swimming together in the same delusion pond, no one gets that much special attention. Here, when one has a controversial opinion, the thread often turns to them, and they become the center of attention. So yeah, relevance is a big deal. I have at times stated that I prefer LS over another OW forum. The reason for this is that I do not agree with the general philosophy on that board, and it is a very one-sided board which leaves no room for other beliefs than their own. On LS there is room for diverse opinions. That is why I like it here. There is room for discussion between people with varying opinions. This makes the discussions interesting. If everyone thinks the same it is not much of a discussion.
OWoman Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 Apologies for misunderstanding. I'm still not sure on the word 'acceptance'; to me, it's more tolerance. I guess I perceive the word differently to you. Yes - tolerance would be another way to put it. It's not what they would choose; but they accept it as part of the package deal.
OWoman Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 OWoman, I would agree with this IF it were true of ALL BS in any particular country/culture. Just because you know of a few, or a dozen, or 100, or 10,000 BS who demonstrate what you describe above, it cannot be claimed that infideltiy is 'acceptable' in that country...because you cannot exclude the residents of that country who do not find infideltiy 'acceptable.' Of course, it is acceptable to all MM/MW/OW/OM...and maybe there are some, even many, BS who are ok with their WS engaging in an A for whatever reason. But, these particular BS are NOT representative of ALL BS. And, actually, those BS who tollerate it may be in the minority. And, even IF they are the majority of BS...it would still be incorrect to say that infidelity is 'acceptable' in that country...because of those who reside in that country who find it totally unacceptable. Mad, you will not find ANYTHING that EVERYONE in any given culture or country finds acceptable! Every culture, every group and every subgroup even is subject to huge contestations and debates. Even political parties, which by their nature comprise people who self-select around a particular set of values, are subject to enormous disputes and variations of interpretations and emphases and priorities... You will not be able to find anything, anywhere, that enjoys 100% support! That said, the views I was citing were very common - almost universal - among a number of the cultures in my home country. Personally, it is not a view I agree with - nor agreed with when those views were expressed to me, as I found them very oppressive and not the kind of views I would be comfortable living with - yet when I lived and worked there, I had to accept that that was how those people chose to live. It might also explain why I chose not to engage romantically with any of the men there - but while I myself choose not to hold that view, it doesn't make it "right" or "wrong" to me, just different.
donnamaybe Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 Yeah, I suppose some countries - cultures - are still in the dark ages where men get to call all the shots. Like I said earlier, I'm betting WOMEN aren't allowed to screw around on their H's in that culture. If the women in those countries want to allow men to run the entire show, then what does that say about their strength? Not so much, IMO.
White Dove Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 I'm not sure which country accepts affairs but I do know in some countries having 2nd, 3rd or 4th wife is acceptable. Even that, wives are introduced via families and affairs are definitely frowned upon in those countries. (I still find that unacceptable )
Spark1111 Posted June 22, 2010 Posted June 22, 2010 Again, you're welcome to your opinion...I have mine. The damage on a M that is inflicted in an A is done by the WS...period. They are there to protect and nourish and if they don't then the damage belongs to them. I have never cheated and I don't believe I ever would...I also never say never because I never expected to be involved with a MM. I think I'm going to call it a day on this thread. If I have left any questions or points of discussion outstanding please feel free to PM me-that's meant for anyone. MizFit...I understand why you believe the damage done to the M by an affair is solely the responsibility of the WS. That's because that is the way you felt when your xH cheated on you. But surely you can understand those who feel somewhat differently; that the AP enables the WS to perpetuate the damage. To those posters, APs seem rife with excuses. And I guess this is what this thread is about; that perspective.
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