Excuses and more excuses

[jennie-jennie]

This whole culture thing is a red herring. If affairs etc. were fine and dandy in these countries, no OW from them would be here bleating about how the MM needs to make a choice between her and the BW or how she's his primary love interest blah, blah. She'd just accept the status quo, his wife is for home and family, she's for sex and that would be that. Look at France's past where a huge number of married men had mistresses, but that's all they were and they knew it.

 

C'est la vie.

 

Did it ever occur to you that a woman in one of these countries might have a relationship with a married man who was not a native of that particular country and thus did not harbor the values of the country in question?

[OWoman]

I know that affairs, sexual or emotional relations outside the marriage are not accepted. Far from it. Wives do not stay in their marriages accepting their husbands are having sex with someone else, never mind 'falling in love' with an OP.

 

...And I know differently. I have had a great many conversations with a great many colleagues about this very topic, who - although unhappy that their H had an/other GF/s on the side - accepted that situation as long as it was kept away from them. They accepted that "men are like that" and that their role as Ws was to make the home and bring up the kids and not question or nag unless they wanted to get Dd.

 

It might seem to you - as it did to me - an oppressed, unenlightened and very unliberated view of gender relations, but that was their culture and not my place to tell them they were wrong for abiding by it.

 

I agree. I think the cultural one is the most hokum of all excuses. From sociologoical, anthropological, and religious perspective, any scholar will tell you that most societies are familycentric, especially in the west, and as not as easily dismissed as I have seen it done here.

 

"Family" means very different things in different places.

 

The "western" norm of a nuclear family consisting of two opposite sex parents and their offspring is the minority. A multitude of other forms exist, and outnumber the form that gets mooted as the "ideal".

[TinaniT]

. Wives do not stay in their marriages accepting their husbands are having sex with someone else, never mind 'falling in love' with an OP.

 

That is not always true. I am not saying it is always false, either, but it's not a statement you can make as a blanket just because it confirms your point.

[bittersweet memories]

If you are trying to understand the mentality of the OW/OM, should you not be posting this thread on the OW/OM forum?

 

 

OW/OM come over here and read and respond anyways...makes not difference imho...

[jennie-jennie]

OW/OM come over here and read and respond anyways...makes not difference imho...

 

It is like asking a woman what it is like to be born a man, you can only get opinions not experiences.

[bittersweet memories]

Answers in bold!

 

Saying 'accepted' is very like saying 'condoned'. What difference does it make?

My perspective is that accepting is when a BS is fully aware it's going on, but chooses not to rock the boat. They are happy with 90% of the marriage and they aren't going to leave because of that small percentage. Keep in mind I don't think they are happy to have a straying WS, but they aren't willing to give up what they value to change it. I think condoning it is bordering on, or actually at, an open marriage. Full disclosure on everything and no illusion of discretion.

 

 

I sense bitterness, anger there...just because MM will not leave his wife for you don't blame the wife. Point the finger on your MM...

[MizFit]

I sense bitterness, anger there...just because MM will not leave his wife for you don't blame the wife. Point the finger on your MM...

 

If you care to read my history you'll know that MM isn't going to leave his W for any reason...he's said that from day one and he's never made a promise or statement to the contrary. There was no bitterness there at all...it was basically a discussion about the difference between condoning and acceptance of an A in some European countries.

 

As for tradeoffs...my mother was married to a serial cheater and in her own way had a trade off that's still going to this day. It happens everywhere, all the time.

 

By the way...if you do read my posts you'll find I hold the WS completely and totally responsible for the A and that means my MM and my exH (who cheated on me) as well...

[lolapalooza]

It is like asking a woman what it is like to be born a man, you can only get opinions not experiences.

Do you care to actually respond to the subject of the thread, or are you just going to argue about it's placement? If so, your point is well received, thank you.

[jennie-jennie]

I was here a few months ago to try to read and learn. I didn't care for the atmosphere on a certain forum, so lurked and then moved on. Out of curiosity (and a little hope I guess) I came back.

 

Nothing has changed. Just more excuses.

"My behavior is perfectly acceptable in my country."

"Our relationship is okay because we love each other."

"I'm not the one cheating, so I'm not hurting anyone."

 

Where's the personal responsibility? Why do they keep making excuses for one another? I am not bashing, I am truly trying to understand that kind of mentality.

 

A little help please?

 

We had a thread a while back about moral relativism. I believe what you see as excuses are people holding different morals than your own.

 

Jthorne and I had an interesting discussion about OW. Some OW betray their morals by having an affair, some OW do not. The ones who betray their morals usually fare more badly and end up warning others not to have affairs.

 

The moral I go by is:

All is fair in love and war.

[2sunny]

Two words: Self Preservation.

Pretty much why anyone makes excuses for any behavior, I would guess.

 

this is why people justify bad behavior and try to make it all ok in their minds by twisting or diminishing the ACTUAL truth.

 

to cover up the actual truth - so they don't look bad or have to admit to any wrongdoing... makes it all ok in their mind.

[MizFit]

this is why people justify bad behavior and try to make it all ok in their minds by twisting or diminishing the ACTUAL truth.

 

to cover up the actual truth - so they don't look bad or have to admit to any wrongdoing... makes it all ok in their mind.

 

Or there are simply ACTUAL cultural differences or differences in opinion of responsibility than someone else.

 

We have a poster here who lives on a different continent from most of us and a different country from all of us (that I am aware of). I live on the same continent and I am aware that between where I assume she is and myself there are probably 10 countries I would have to pass through. In each of those countries are different laws, religions, beliefs, histories...each of those countries has a set of mores that help shape their cultures. Who am I, or you, or anyone else to sit in our own countries and dictate what is the ACTUAL truth of their country and it's culture? I'm sorry, but we are ignorant of what it's like to be brought up there and to spend a life there...therefore it is not for us to say what is acceptable and what isn't.

 

Here's one that I'm sure will be popular...I make it no secret whatsoever that I do not put any blame on OW or OM. My mother didn't when she was a BS...I didn't when I was a BS...I don't now that I'm an OW. There is 1 person who cheats in an A and that is the person responsible for what they've turned their back on. That is my opinion and that is my truth. If I were to do what you are doing and make assumptions about excuses etc I would quite simply say that a BS who puts blame on the OW/OM is simply making excuses for the WS and is making it easier to not blame the WS for everything therefore able to justify taking them back.

 

I don't happen to believe that...about 8 or 10 months ago I did, but I have listened and I have learned. What I perceived to be an excuse was in fact someone elses ACTUAL truth and I can now understand where they're coming from. I haven't changed my mind on who is responsible, but I have changed my mind on why the BS feels that way. I never felt it so my truth is different from everyone else, but it is not an excuse. It's how I was shown as a young adult to see my fathers affairs and then my own WS. None of that kept me from listening and learning and figuring out that other people had different opinions and different ways of looking at things and living their lives.

 

I absolutely agree there many excuses flying around about many, many things...but I don't think that all of these are excuses. I feel that they are how a person truly feels and what their reality is. Just because you disagree it doesn't mean it's an excuse.

 

I hope I haven't rambled on and I hope it makes some sense...getting too late. If it's nonsensical I'm sure I'll read about it in the morning...

Edited June 19, 2010 by MizFit

[2sunny]

therefore it is not for us to say what is acceptable and what isn't.

 

i never said i need others to agree with my truth. it is only THEIR'S that needs to matter to them.

 

 

this is why people justify bad behavior and try to make it all ok in their minds by twisting or diminishing the ACTUAL truth.

 

to cover up the actual truth - so they don't look bad or have to admit to any wrongdoing... makes it all ok in their mind.

 

i stand by my original experience and perspective... to each his own...

[MizFit]

i never said i need others to agree with my truth. it is only THEIR'S that needs to matter to them.

 

 

 

 

i stand by my original experience and perspective... to each his own...

 

You said THE actual truth, not theirs and that gives the impression there is one and it's the one you are speaking about. If that's not what you meant I accept that.

 

You're absolutely welcome to stand by what you said...I do the same in here on a daily basis...agree to disagree.

 

Have a good evening...must sleep now!

[2sunny]

You said THE actual truth, not theirs and that gives the impression there is one and it's the one you are speaking about. If that's not what you meant I accept that.

 

You're absolutely welcome to stand by what you said...I do the same in here on a daily basis...agree to disagree.

 

Have a good evening...must sleep now!

 

i did mis step. truth is individualized for each and every person. THEIR truth. this is always based upon the person's experience and perspective. many times that person's assigned meaning comes into play for THEIR own experience and perspective. it's what makes the world go around. it's why MY truth may not look at all like YOUR truth - even if we both experience the exact same thing - at the exact same time...

[Spark1111]

I don't know about other countries, and frankly, I do not care.

 

If your spouse betrayed you no matter where on the planet you lived, and you loved that spouse, I can only assume it hurts like hell, as much as it hurt me.

 

Accepted? Tolerated? Maybe sometimes and in some places. Idunno.

 

But not in my heart, and that's really all I care about.

[MizFit]

I don't know about other countries, and frankly, I do not care.

 

If your spouse betrayed you no matter where on the planet you lived, and you loved that spouse, I can only assume it hurts like hell, as much as it hurt me.

 

Accepted? Tolerated? Maybe sometimes and in some places. Idunno.

 

But not in my heart, and that's really all I care about.

 

I agree with you Spark...but the OP was about accepting that other cultures have different viewpoints and that's why such a focus on that. Just because we live one way doesn't mean everyone else lives the same. I'm with you...we all hurt.

[turnstone]

'Accepted' means to commonly approve of. So no, affairs are not 'accepted'. The wife may know about it, but she sure ain't approving.

 

I can't think of one culture where an affair would be condoned by either the relevant society or family.

 

And as for living in different countries and experiencing different cultures, I got you all beat

[MizFit]

'Accepted' means to commonly approve of. So no, affairs are not 'accepted'. The wife may know about it, but she sure ain't approving.

 

I can't think of one culture where an affair would be condoned by either the relevant society or family.

 

And as for living in different countries and experiencing different cultures, I got you all beat

 

I beg to differ, but if she is staying in the marriage and is aware of the A then she is accepting it. If she weren't she'd end it one way or another.

 

A lot of people have me all beat...I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is people who won't accept the fact there are different cultures and expect everyone in the world to accept their views as the truth.

[seren]

Had I been brought up in a country where extra marital relationships were the norm, then I would expect that me and my H would discuss our boundaries, how we would manage this, how he and I could see others, yet still honour our commitment to each other (otherwise why get married). I don't suppose that the EMA's are viewed as A's, but more an accepted part of life. However, supposing that I, even coming from a country where EMA's are the norm, discussed it with my H and he agreed that this wouldn't be a factor of our M, then it would be viewed by me as a betrayal of our agreement. I would expect H to discuss his changed views with me to enable me to decide whether I was happy to continue with our M or to leave and find someone who shared my views and boundaries.

 

It doesn't matter how you cut it, if a relationship is made based on a shared understanding of what the boundaries of that relationship are, the one breaking that agreement is cheating and being dishonest. The one helping is an enabler.

 

I have no problem with EMA's if the spouse is aware, I wouldn't call them EMA"s in that instance as I wouldn't see it as an A. The problem with this, very often, is that rarely would H's be happy knowing that the W was enjoying all the benefits of an EMA too.

[White Dove]

I don't care about culture/country accepting affairs. I care about what my family and friends think about affairs and most of us do not accept it. Who gives a damn about what others think, really?

 

If you (general YOU) can accept it, good for you. Most people can't.

[MizFit]

I don't care about culture/country accepting affairs. I care about what my family and friends think about affairs and most of us do not accept it. Who gives a damn about what others think, really?

 

If you (general YOU) can accept it, good for you. Most people can't.

 

You're absolutey right that most people can't, but the reason this started was because someone with different lifes experiences stated what it was like where she is and what the different lifestyles etc are. Some of us may not like the thougts of arranged marriages, but in some cultures they are an accepted part of life.

 

In my defending the cultural differences it wasn't to say if they were right or wrong, just acknowledge that posters may have very different viewpoints and it may not be just 'wrong' and make harsh judgements on them because of it.

[turnstone]

I beg to differ, but if she is staying in the marriage and is aware of the A then she is accepting it. If she weren't she'd end it one way or another.

 

We're talking about societies. I'm sure that even in the 60s with the 'free love' philosophy going on there were plenty of people not happy with it. However in the popular culture at the time it was accepted. I can't think of one country in who's culture affairs are accepted. I think extra marital sex without consent by the person being cheated on, is grounds for at least disapproval if not actual nailing to a wall by the testes.

 

A lot of people have me all beat...I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is people who won't accept the fact there are different cultures and expect everyone in the world to accept their views as the truth.

 

I don't see anyone saying their truth is the only one. I'm very happy to learn new things and if you can point out a culture to me where affairs are not disapproved of, I'd be interested.

[MizFit]

We're talking about societies. I'm sure that even in the 60s with the 'free love' philosophy going on there were plenty of people not happy with it. However in the popular culture at the time it was accepted. I can't think of one country in who's culture affairs are accepted. I think extra marital sex without consent by the person being cheated on, is grounds for at least disapproval if not actual nailing to a wall by the testes.

 

 

 

I don't see anyone saying their truth is the only one. I'm very happy to learn new things and if you can point out a culture to me where affairs are not disapproved of, I'd be interested.

 

When this started there was a whole bit about a member here who is from another country and the fact that no matter what she said about the beliefs and mores of where she lived it was just plain wrong...there was no accepting it is just plain different.

 

I have 4 friends from Italy-3 male who have mistresses and 1 woman who is a BS...they have all told me that it is as things are. I actually have spent time with 2 of the gents meeting both the wives and the mistresses at different times, but fully out in the open in public and with friends and work colleagues around. The woman who is a BS 'dates' often. I had business dealings in Bulgaria and again in the afternoon the wives of the heads of the company were in attendance and in the evening the mistresses were. I sat with my mouth open when we were having dinner and one had a call from his W and ended up passing the phone to his OW and they were laughing and chatting. I know it could have been a friendship in betrayal, but I don't think so. I spent some time in central France and got to know several people in the village and the worst kept secrets were their mistresses. I have a friend here who was the mistress to an Italian gent when she was much younger and she went everywhere with him, even family holidays she would sometimes go and have a separate suite.

 

I am not saying that every person in these societies accepts this sort of lifestyle, but there is an underlying acceptance of 'that's the way it is' in some places and it is cultural. I know plenty of folks from the same countries who would have nothing to do with it, but it is still there in some places...therefore I believe there are some cultures that accept it. Remembering accepting and liking are two completely different things.

 

There...I know the very few people I've met and seen in the midst of this is a paltry sampling, but again...my own experiences.

[MadMission]

I agree with you Spark...but the OP was about accepting that other cultures have different viewpoints and that's why such a focus on that. Just because we live one way doesn't mean everyone else lives the same. I'm with you...we all hurt.

 

 

 

The OP presented a short list of some of the 'excuses' posted by OW here on LS. One of them had to do with reading post(s) by some OW who claim infidelity is acceptable in her country of residence.

 

I don't know the exact wording of any OW's post, but I can say this:

No matter where you live, if infidelity is considered acceptable, then why hide it from the BS? I don't think any OW whose MM keeps the A secret from the W can say that infidelity is acceptable in her country. Apparently, it's not...or there would be NO reason to keep it from the W.

The MM would feel confident that the W, living in an accepting country/culture, would be accepting of his simultaneous relationship with OW.

 

So...what's the problem? Why would MM keep something, which is so acceptable, from his W? SHE is part of this country/culture as well.

 

In a situation where an OW uses the 'it's acceptable in my country' excuse, it is received as a totally lame excuse because, if it were, in fact, acceptable, there would be no need to hide the relationship from the W. Period.

 

I think it IS safe to say that most, if not all, MM/MW/OW/OM from ANY country feel infideltiy is acceptable. THAT is the population in any country who would say it is acceptable....because it is to them...obviously. But, if while poling all the BS's, you learn that some, many, most, or all feel betrayed, hurt, devistated upon learning that their spouse is in a relationship with OW/OM, then you cannot claim infidelity is acceptable in that country. You just can't...cause it's not.

[MizFit]

The OP presented a short list of some of the 'excuses' posted by OW here on LS. One of them had to do with reading post(s) by some OW who claim infidelity is acceptable in her country of residence.

 

I don't know the exact wording of any OW's post, but I can say this:

No matter where you live, if infidelity is considered acceptable, then why hide it from the BS? I don't think any OW whose MM keeps the A secret from the W can say that infidelity is acceptable in her country. Apparently, it's not...or there would be NO reason to keep it from the W.

The MM would feel confident that the W, living in an accepting country/culture, would be accepting of his simultaneous relationship with OW.

 

So...what's the problem? Why would MM keep something, which is so acceptable, from his W? SHE is part of this country/culture as well.

 

In a situation where an OW uses the 'it's acceptable in my country' excuse, it is received as a totally lame excuse because, if it were, in fact, acceptable, there would be no need to hide the relationship from the W. Period.

 

I think it IS safe to say that most, if not all, MM/MW/OW/OM from ANY country feel infideltiy is acceptable. THAT is the population in any country who would say it is acceptable....because it is to them...obviously. But, if while poling all the BS's, you learn that some, many, most, or all feel betrayed, hurt, devistated upon learning that their spouse is in a relationship with OW/OM, then you cannot claim infidelity is acceptable in that country. You just can't...cause it's not.

 

As I've said in previous posts...it's accepted, but not liked-arranged marriages are accepted and not liked...female castration is accepted and not liked.

 

In my previous post I gave several examples of people I have come across from some very distinct areas...you're welcome to your POV because I certainly have my own.