Confused100 Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 "Nice guys finish last". Is this mantra true at all? I just can't bring myself to ask random women out for a date. For some reason, I need to 'know' them beforehand. So whenever I do get interested in someone, it inevitably turns out that we've become good friends. And it's not like I get interested in that many girls either. There must be some 'je ne sais quoi' to the particular ones I do fall for. And it's not like I'm controlling who I fall for. I just do. So is there really a 'friend zone'? Do I get myself trapped into it each and every time? Or is that just a myth, and I just need to keep on trying? I'm always reluctant to ask because I believe it will make the relationship awkward and screw up any potential close friendship later on too. For example, let's take a look at the last year or so: the first girl seemed to always be busy when I asked if she wanted to hang out or get lunch. Never spoken to her again. The friendship with the second girl ended in disaster, and I don't want to bring back any emotions from that. The third girl just rejected me and now I'm paranoid/pessimistic that the same thing will happen. Now I'm second guessing myself, wondering if asking was the right thing to do. It's like I make a friend and just as quickly lose a friend. Some online friends have suggested that, with women I am interested in, I need to delay my responses and act aloof to make them more interested. Is there any credence to this? It's not like they'd initiate random conversations that much anyway. So it feels like doing that wouldn't really get me anywhere. I know how it feels to be ignored, and it's quite irritating. I hate to do it to friends/people I'm interested in, because I just think they'll be irritated too.
fishtaco Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 That's why romance with friends should only happen by accident, never by intent. If you want to date someone, don't become friends with them. If you do, then things get too complicated. Not that it never works out, but more like you're just making things harder for yourself. Excellent for masochists, not so excellent for those of us that don't enjoy pain. Also 0 out of 3 is nothing. Try 20, then at least one of them should at least get to the next step. Quantity is the game here. Don't be the nice guy; they just get used. Don't hit on friends, unless you don't care about the friendship. And dating at the basics, is a number game. Sure there are things you can do to improve your percentage, such as looks, money, game, etc, but even after you apply all the improvements, all you get is a higher percentage, so it's STILL a number game. Don't think of women you're interested in as people that matter to you. They're not your friends for 10 years that have gone through thick and thin right next to you -- they are random chicks you barely know, and could decide to drop you with just barely a thought. Treat them the same way they treat you. Once you build up the quantity it'll be much easier. All that aloof thing or whatever, is emulating a man with many options. So instead of pretending to be a man with many options, BE the man with many options.
Author Confused100 Posted June 18, 2010 Author Posted June 18, 2010 I see what you're getting it. But let me explain the most recent situation to help elucidate my problem. When I first met her, I thought she was gorgeous. However, that did not mean that I wanted to date her. The more I talked with her inside and outside of class, the more I got to like her as a person. That's when something triggered and I really wanted to ask her out. But then the dilemma is posed: we're already friends, and asking her out may very well make things awkward; nevertheless, not asking her out may end up tormenting me.
fishtaco Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 I see what you're getting it. But let me explain the most recent situation to help elucidate my problem. When I first met her, I thought she was gorgeous. However, that did not mean that I wanted to date her. The more I talked with her inside and outside of class, the more I got to like her as a person. That's when something triggered and I really wanted to ask her out. But then the dilemma is posed: we're already friends, and asking her out may very well make things awkward; nevertheless, not asking her out may end up tormenting me. If you're okay with not being friends with her, ask her out and see where it goes. If you want her to be your friend, then as soon as you find the next five gorgeous girls to focus on, you'll forget about this one. Don't fall in love before the relationship even starts. That's a rookie mistake.
Author Confused100 Posted June 18, 2010 Author Posted June 18, 2010 I guess that makes sense. Any ways to NOT fall into that trap? It seems like I keep on 'falling in love before the relationship even starts'. I inevitably end up asking because the feelings are so strong, while still wanting that friendship in case it doesn't work out.
fishtaco Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 I guess that makes sense. Any ways to NOT fall into that trap? It seems like I keep on 'falling in love before the relationship even starts'. I inevitably end up asking because the feelings are so strong, while still wanting that friendship in case it doesn't work out. I'm not sure, that takes experience and discipline. The natural way is to get hurt enough times that you learn. But that's also the hard way. Maybe you can try mechanically start hitting up on a bunch of different women. Try to have as many women you are "dating" as you can. For me it's three. Four is pushing it. Life is more than just women. I think you do the fall in love thing because she's your only option now. If you have plenty, your focus will be divided. Maybe other people will have better advice. I don't know. I've been in and out of the dating scene a long time now. And the Southern California dating scene is not forgiving at all. I've been punched in the face enough times that I can easily stay on course. I'm not sure what your best path is.
Yamaha Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 I don't know why this is so hard for many guys. It is bs that you have to get to know someone before you want to date them, dating is about getting to know them. You see a girl your attracted to and you ask them out on a date. You become friends during the dating process. The componets of a relationship are sexual interest and friendship/emotional . If you have the first then you find out ( by dating ) if you have the second. End of story. rinse and repeat until you find both componets.
somedude81 Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Confused, I've been down the friendzone path many times. Every time I ended up hurt and it really sucked having friendships fall apart. I've since learned how to avoid getting in the friendzone. It's all about how much time you spend with the girl, before you ask her out. If you wait too long, your feelings for her will grow and she will come to like you as a friend, just as a friend. So the best way to avoid any pain is to fallow these steps. Meet girl Get to know her Wait no longer than month to ask her out. The shorter the better. In a months time you can still become 'buddies' but neither of you will have any real emotional investment in each other. If she rejects you, you can quickly and easily move on. The longer you wait, the harder it becomes.
homersheineken Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 I see what you're getting it. But let me explain the most recent situation to help elucidate my problem. When I first met her, I thought she was gorgeous. However, that did not mean that I wanted to date her. The more I talked with her inside and outside of class, the more I got to like her as a person. That's when something triggered and I really wanted to ask her out. But then the dilemma is posed: we're already friends, and asking her out may very well make things awkward; nevertheless, not asking her out may end up tormenting me. Yeah, I call BS.
fishtaco Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Yeah, I call BS. Unless he's a nice guy. They actually think like that.
homersheineken Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Unless he's a nice guy. They actually think like that. She thought she was gorgeous. Are you telling me he wasn't attracted to her and that sex wasn't on his mind? If so, yeah, he wanted to go out with her and have fun...
fishtaco Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 She thought she was gorgeous. Are you telling me he wasn't attracted to her and that sex wasn't on his mind? If so, yeah, he wanted to go out with her and have fun... Exactly, ever wonder why nice guys can't get things going with women? They think that thinking that way is inappropriate and disrespectful to women.
Morals Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Exactly, ever wonder why nice guys can't get things going with women? They think that thinking that way is inappropriate and disrespectful to women. Way to generalize... Ever think that maybe sex shouldn't be the first thing on your mind? I can think a girl is cute without wanting to mind-hump her. It's that behavior that seperates the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. If sex us the first thing on your mind in anything but a ONS or FWB, you have an issue with connecting emotionally with women. Sex is not bad to think about, but it should not be the first thing on your mind.
Ruby Slippers Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Reverse 'get to know her' and 'ask her out', for the most part. A month is way too long to wait. Correct. A guy who's crazy about you wouldn't be able to wait a month. And why bother if he's not crazy about you? In love and sex, red hot is always better than lukewarm.
Yamaha Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Way to generalize... Ever think that maybe sex shouldn't be the first thing on your mind? I can think a girl is cute without wanting to mind-hump her. It's that behavior that seperates the chaff from the wheat, so to speak. If sex us the first thing on your mind in anything but a ONS or FWB, you have an issue with connecting emotionally with women. Sex is not bad to think about, but it should not be the first thing on your mind. Women are not offended if you desire them. You can be attracted sexually AND respect them as a woman. This has nothing to do with ONS or FWB.
Ruby Slippers Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Women are not offended if you desire them. You can be attracted sexually AND respect them as a woman. Yes. There is nothing hotter than a man who TRULY and deeply desires me and TRULY and deeply respects me.
somedude81 Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Eh, a woman really wants a man whom she is already attracted to, to desire her. If she doesn't like the guy he is; creepy, annoying, weird etc. Being crazy for a girl before a man gets her, is actually very dangerous for the guy. The more he likes her, the more the rejection is going to hurt. Even then it's dangerous get let feelings control him. The one that likes the other the least, has the power.
Morals Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Women are not offended if you desire them. You can be attracted sexually AND respect them as a woman. This has nothing to do with ONS or FWB. You didn't read a word I said... I said that sex was not something you shouldn't think about. But it should not be the first thing on your mind with a girl unless you are in a ONS or FWB relationship. In normal healthy relationships it's much more then about sex. You know how people joke about how once marriage starts the sex drops off? There's a grain of truth in every joke. Women love to be desired, that's called getting attention. It doesn't mean that should be the only reason you ever think about them in a desirable way. What somedude and urban said above are also spot on. Women want someone whom they are physically attracted to, to desire them. Not some guy whom has been harbouring a crush for three years, whom they don't have any feelings for!
somedude81 Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 The problem with 'nice guys' is that they place too little importance on sex. They effectively try to hide all sexual desire which results in them never making a move. Of course if the guy never makes a move, the girl is naturally going to only see him as a friend. I'm actually going to say that for a nice guy, sex should be the first thing on his mind. If it isn't it, it may be so far back on his mind that he never thinks about it.
GoodOnPaper Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 The problem with 'nice guys' is that they place too little importance on sex. They effectively try to hide all sexual desire which results in them never making a move. Of course if the guy never makes a move, the girl is naturally going to only see him as a friend. You're right about the results, but I would argue that deep down, we "nice guys" actually view sex as too important -- like it's this mythical nirvana that we know we're not good enough to achieve but we'll be crushed if we don't. It shouldn't be any wonder that we freeze up. Like Kevin Spacey's line in The Usual Suspects, "Could you really shoot the devil in the back? What if you miss?" If I could go back in time 20 or 25 years to advise my foolishly "nice guy" self, I would offer these 3 bits of wisdom: 1. As has been pointed out here, get to know a woman while dating not before. (I think this is actually separate from whether or not you are a "nice guy" -- personally, I was just clueless here.) 2. Date someone because she's "cool", not because she's "hot". (A line from the No More Mr. Nice Guy site.) 3. Everything is practice . . . (another line from the No More Mr. Nice Guy site.) I simply based too much of my self-esteem on whether this or that random woman would be attracted to me. Plus, in typical "nice guy" fashion, I'm TERRIBLE at reading signs of interest, so approaching any woman seemed like a cold-call. Well . . . keep in mind that the world won't end if an approach doesn't work, so try a few cold-calls.
GoodOnPaper Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Once more, Seinfeld imitates life . . . Yes. There is nothing hotter than a man who TRULY and deeply desires me and TRULY and deeply respects me. . . . assuming you are already physically attracted to him . . . Eh, a woman really wants a man whom she is already attracted to, to desire her. If she doesn't like the guy he is; creepy, annoying, weird etc. . . . and then there's George Costanza!
Yamaha Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 The problem with 'nice guys' is that they place too little importance on sex. They effectively try to hide all sexual desire which results in them never making a move. Of course if the guy never makes a move, the girl is naturally going to only see him as a friend. I'm actually going to say that for a nice guy, sex should be the first thing on his mind. If it isn't it, it may be so far back on his mind that he never thinks about it. Yes. You need to get over the feeling you are disrespecting a women if you show sexual interest. This doesn't make you a player or a jerk. Let her know her qualities as a person are also important to you and you will become a good guy. Establishing a sexual interest first lets her know you see her as a gf and then you can go on to find out if she has the qualities as a person that is compatable for a relationship ( by dating ).
Ruby Slippers Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 2. Date someone because she's "cool", not because she's "hot". (A line from the No More Mr. Nice Guy site.) Great advice! And I wish more men would heed it. I'm sure I'd have men all over me. Eh, a woman really wants a man whom she is already attracted to, to desire her. If she doesn't like the guy he is; creepy, annoying, weird etc. I have a lot more respect for a guy who makes his desires and intentions clear from the get-go than a guy who shuffles his feet around the subject and waits for me to take the initiative. And I have never rejected a man in a mean way. I try to let them down very easily, because I want them to keep at it. The world is better off if we are all going for what we want, not feeling dejected and blah.
Morals Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Yes. You need to get over the feeling you are disrespecting a women if you show sexual interest. This doesn't make you a player or a jerk. Let her know her qualities as a person are also important to you and you will become a good guy. Establishing a sexual interest first lets her know you see her as a gf and then you can go on to find out if she has the qualities as a person that is compatable for a relationship ( by dating ). Again, you seem to place too much emphasis on showing interest only by letting someone know that you find them sexually attractive. I guarantee you, there are other ways to let a girl know you ate interested besides declaring your lust for her. Let me phrase it another way. EVERY girl out there has the exact same sexual parts another girl has. I don't need to waste my time first letting someone know I'm sexually interested in them on the first few dates. That is readily apparent. Why you say? Because if I wasn't, I WOULDN'T HAVE ASKED HER OUT in the first place. When I'm out on a date, I want to know the emotional and intellectual connections. Those are the ones that will tell me if I'm compatible with this person. Honestly, why would you go out on a date with someone you aren't sexually interested in? If you have to blatantly express your sexual interest in someone, chances are they were never sexually interested in you, you are already in the friendzone.
Ruby Slippers Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 I don't need to waste my time first letting someone know I'm sexually interested in them on the first few dates. Yes, you do. That is readily apparent. No, it's not. A guy doesn't need to start humping me outside the restaurant on the first date, but if he does nothing physical to signal his sexual interest in me, I might as well be having dinner with a girlfriend. Also, experience has shown me that the longer the guy waits to get sexual, the worse the sex is.
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