TheBigQuestion Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 (edited) I feel like guys who have extremely intellectually demanding jobs (and there aren't many of these, let's be honest) probably won't consider intelligence a deal breaker mostly because being intellectual can get tiring for a lot of people. In my own experience during college, for example, after discussing and being lectured for 3 hours in various topics in cognitive science, the last thing I would've really wanted to do was talk about that or anything else really deeply involved. This is not to say that I wasn't interested in the material, just that everyone has a breaking point. After being all smart at work all day, they may really not prioritize having deep, involved conversations about whatever topics with their girlfriends/wives. I see this as perfectly reasonable. Again, I really do prioritize intelligence in a potential significant other, but I don't understand why anyone is surprised or dismayed that it isn't a complete deal breaker for most men. The most important thing I look for in a potential SO that is related to intelligence is whether or not she is aware of what's going in the world to a significant degree, and whether or not she cultivates interests beyond shallow consumerism. Edited June 18, 2010 by TheBigQuestion
WintersNightTraveler Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 I feel like guys who have extremely intellectually demanding jobs (and there aren't many of these, let's be honest) probably won't consider intelligence a deal breaker mostly because being intellectual can get tiring for a lot of people. I don't really think that's the case. I can see not wanting to be intellectual in the same way you are at work but don't agree in general. For instance, I probably would not want a GF to play with Matlab with me after work, because I get my fill of that type of stuff. But if she wanted to talk about Camus or watch a David Lynch movie, I'd probably be psyched. For me that kind of stuff is only tiring when it's monotonous.
WintersNightTraveler Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Not for me this thread is actually really depressing. What I have been puzzled by lately is that I have this co-worker of mine who is a genious mathematician. [...] How did this this man go on a date with her and then later decide "Yep, she is the one!"? [...] he LOVES to make fun of people in a professional setting based on how intelligent they are. [...] He also recently purchased a house. One of the worst possible decisions he could [...] he is letting her make major life decisions too it really bothers me that very intelligent men can marry someone, that is quite frankly WAY below them in that respect I think you are fetishizing smart men. It actually sounds a lot like when guys complain about hot chicks who are dating some fat guy, or a guy they think is lame. Having intelligence doesn't always imply having taste. And the co-worker you describe may have a huge brain but it sounds like he has quite a few less admirable qualities that you de-emphasize due to his large member... You're going to find the whole gamut of personality traits in really bright people, so of course a lot of these guys are going to pursue desires that don't really stem from their intellectual aspects.
SadandConfusedWA Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 I don't really think that's the case. I can see not wanting to be intellectual in the same way you are at work but don't agree in general. For instance, I probably would not want a GF to play with Matlab with me after work, because I get my fill of that type of stuff. But if she wanted to talk about Camus or watch a David Lynch movie, I'd probably be psyched. For me that kind of stuff is only tiring when it's monotonous. Excatly, she doesn't have to discuss astro-physics with you. But if she goes on and on about soap story lines or similar and then puts on "Desparate Housewives" on your main TV - I mean wouldn't you rather watch a well made arthouse flick or something? Also, consider what happens when you get old and stop working and have to spend 24/7 with her. It's like to be able to relate to her, you will have to supress a significant part of who you are (that you currently have an outlet for at work). Even now, with your work - your parner still deosn't "get" the intellectual part of you. IMHO that a pretty big deal.
TheBigQuestion Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Excatly, she doesn't have to discuss astro-physics with you. But if she goes on and on about soap story lines or similar and then puts on "Desparate Housewives" on your main TV - I mean wouldn't you rather watch a well made arthouse flick or something? Also, consider what happens when you get old and stop working and have to spend 24/7 with her. It's like to be able to relate to her, you will have to supress a significant part of who you are (that you currently have an outlet for at work). Even now, with your work - your parner still deosn't "get" the intellectual part of you. IMHO that a pretty big deal. I pretty much agree. I never said I agreed with the mentality, but I can more or less understand where it comes from.
romango Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 A person's character and integrity can be enhanced by intelligence. A lack of intelligence can diminish character and integrity. Something to think about..... Okay, I get it now. Those women who fool around and play dishonest mind games with their mate are lacking intelligence since they're lacking character and integrity.
Mr White Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Umm yes, she IS significantly less intelligent than you from what you describe. Sure, sitting on the couch eating ice cream is cool but don't you just get BORED? Or do you get your fill of intellectual stimulation at work? It is a lot more than "writing matlab programs", just the quality of everyday conversation - how is that not a problem for you? Perhaps you enjoy that you dominate in this area even on a subconcious level. Or you have been badly burned by your ex and now prefer less intelligent women. Sure, I get the high level intellectual stimulation from work/collaborators. If i want a dose of art, I pick a book or take my sweetie to an exhibition. The quality of the everyday conversation is similar or BETTER than it was with my ex and it has nothing to do with "dominance", but with temperament and predispositions. So no, I don't get bored, and it's already been a year and a half. You really don't need a stratospheric IQ to discuss how was your day, what's going on in the family/work/news, etc. etc. etc.
mixwell Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Yes and no. As far as education goes, that's not an issue with me. If you have a masters, doctorate, whatever, very cool for you. If you don't, that's okay. Although sometimes I'm curious as to why... not to judge, but I feel like some "intelligence" lies in that vein. I totally understand not everyone can afford or have time for school. Spelling and grammar.. sometimes. I don't care for texts that say something like, "u cumin out 2nite?". Innocent misspellings are fine, I'm not going to grade you. But there's a line. I kinda dated a girl a few months back who didn't grasp the concept of "their/there/they're". It sorta bugged me, but it wasn't a deal breaker. I'd like to spend more time talking, anyway. However! As far as like.. wit, or being clever goes... that can be really important to me. I enjoy creating smart/witty/observational humor (seeing as that I do stand up on open mic nights... name dropping! haha), and I rely on a lot of it. So if things are shooting over our heads... that becomes really hard for me. Most recently with some friends who set me up with another friend... I made a crack about a mutual friend of ours (in good taste) and she gave me this quizzical look. And I replied, "I'm kidding, haha". "Oh.. I see." Or, maybe I'm just not funny at all. This is exactly how I think... I don't expect a book worm super brain but certain misspellings like their there and they're are kinda like okay did you pass high school or what ? I do consider myself quick witted and on the spot funny comments and when chicks are like "huh i dont get it" its kinda annoys me.. I know it's not that I'm not funny I know that it's the fact they don't get the on the spot observational humor.. I like a chick that can be quick witted and come up with a clever comeback or comment.. This reminds me of one time my ex girlfriend first started driving and she left my house (we were like 17 then) and she calls me and says "hey i cant get my car outta park" and I said "did you press the brake pedal first and then shift?" I hear her attempting it and she says simply "oh" haha. Stuff like that is almost like /facepalm and is a turn off to me.. I'm not HUGE on spelling but when someone is writing me (non txt) and they have simply horrible sentence structure it is kind of a turn off because there is no real excuse for that once you're out of the high school age group. So I would say in simple ignorance it is a deal breaker but if a chick isn't a rocket scientist then that's fine with me.
SadandConfusedWA Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Sure, I get the high level intellectual stimulation from work/collaborators. If i want a dose of art, I pick a book or take my sweetie to an exhibition. The quality of the everyday conversation is similar or BETTER than it was with my ex and it has nothing to do with "dominance", but with temperament and predispositions. So no, I don't get bored, and it's already been a year and a half. You really don't need a stratospheric IQ to discuss how was your day, what's going on in the family/work/news, etc. etc. etc. Again, you are supressing the intellectual you when with your partner and that is a BIG part of who you are. A true, well matched partners should not have to do that. What happens after you have been over your day and family news? You are settling here and you know it, but it's "easier" this way. Many psychologists will agree that there are 3 types of connections that a succesful relationship should have: intellectual/mental, physical and emotional. It appears that intellectual/mental connection is something a lot of men are prepared to do without. In the case of my co-worker, given that his W is obese and he is into fitness, I struggle to see how physical/sexual could truly be there either. So basically, he is sttling for the "emotional connetion". They say that people can have an emotional connection with their pets (I better run and hide now)
SarahRose Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Mr. white, the question was never if intelligence is sufficient. It was if lack of intelligence is a deal breaker to men. And it seems like tha answer is NO I asked my brother who is reasonably smart if he liked intelligent girls, he said: "Sure, as long as she is less intelligent than me!". I think that really sums it up how most men really feel about it. I work in a male dominated industry of engineering and it seems that most of the men are married to ditzes. I honestly don't think men care about a woman's brains at all. I think their wants in a mate are more self-serving like is she attractive enough, good in bed, and cook and clean up after me like my mother did.
TheBigQuestion Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Again, you are supressing the intellectual you when with your partner and that is a BIG part of who you are. A true, well matched partners should not have to do that. What happens after you have been over your day and family news? You are settling here and you know it, but it's "easier" this way. Many psychologists will agree that there are 3 types of connections that a succesful relationship should have: intellectual/mental, physical and emotional. It appears that intellectual/mental connection is something a lot of men are prepared to do without. In the case of my co-worker, given that his W is obese and he is into fitness, I struggle to see how physical/sexual could truly be there either. So basically, he is sttling for the "emotional connetion". They say that people can have an emotional connection with their pets (I better run and hide now) It doesn't really sound like settling to me. If they've been together for a year and a half, obviously they don't have trouble finding things to talk about and as a result, their overall communication can't be that bad either. I think it's a bit needlessly aggressive for you to be asserting this so readily. I also fail to see the direct correlation between having stuff to talk about beyond the news/family and intelligence, just from my own experiences. There's plenty of highly intelligent people who aren't able to communicate anything effectively and don't really have anything interesting to say. Two of the women that I've been involved with in my life who were high on the IQ distribution were either uncomfortable or silent unless you talked about something selected from a very limited set of categories. It's for this reason that not being really intelligent, even if the man is really intelligent, isn't as big a deal breaker as some seem to think it should be. In my personal experience, being very intelligent hasn't necessarily made for better significant other material. Being really vapid and unintelligent IS a deal breaker for me, however, and generally is for most mature men of above average intelligence or higher.
Mr White Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Again, you are supressing the intellectual you when with your partner and that is a BIG part of who you are. A true, well matched partners should not have to do that. What happens after you have been over your day and family news? Well, has is occured to you that maybe forgetting about work and sophisticated mumbo jumbo that only about few hundred/thousand people in the whole world care about is precisely what I need? Indeed, the best way to fully embrace the intellectual me is to forget about being in a relationship altogether and just be married to your work. Which is certainly that many academics do, but it's not my cup of tea. I'd rather go home and be silly and cuddle with a cute baby + wife. Many psychologists will agree that there are 3 types of connections that a succesful relationship should have: intellectual/mental, physical and emotional. It appears that intellectual/mental connection is something a lot of men are prepared to do without. In the case of my co-worker, given that his W is obese and he is into fitness, I struggle to see how physical/sexual could truly be there either. So basically, he is sttling for the "emotional connetion". They say that people can have an emotional connection with their pets Maybe, but whatever. I'm perfectly happy with the physical and emotional aspects, and as I said, I have plenty of outlets for intellectual needs. So, are you recommending that I scrap what I consider to be a great relationship just so I could start looking for someone with whom I could talk even more about work, along with the upfront cost of losing a great emotional and physical relationship? In any case, per economics common sense, people vote with their feet. If I wasn't ultimately happy, I wouldn't be staying in a relationship.
SadandConfusedWA Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 It doesn't really sound like settling to me. If they've been together for a year and a half, obviously they don't have trouble finding things to talk about and as a result, their overall communication can't be that bad either. I think it's a bit needlessly aggressive for you to be asserting this so readily. I also fail to see the direct correlation between having stuff to talk about beyond the news/family and intelligence, just from my own experiences. There's plenty of highly intelligent people who aren't able to communicate anything effectively and don't really have anything interesting to say. Two of the women that I've been involved with in my life who were high on the IQ distribution were either uncomfortable or silent unless you talked about something selected from a very limited set of categories. It's for this reason that not being really intelligent, even if the man is really intelligent, isn't as big a deal breaker as some seem to think it should be. In my personal experience, being very intelligent hasn't necessarily made for better significant other material. Being really vapid and unintelligent IS a deal breaker for me, however, and generally is for most mature men of above average intelligence or higher. Oh, I have known him with previous user name and the way he described his GF and R, he IS settling. Do you seriously think just because a couple has been together for 2 years, that it automatically means one of them is NOT settling? Ha, I know plenty of couples that have gotten married because one or both of them settled. Any couple that is not firing on all 3 cylinders (mental,emotional and physical) is settling. As for the intelligent woman that you described that barely talked, she is shy as in *not outgoing* - which has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence.
Els Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 (edited) Well, she didn't dump me because i wasn't "smart enough" if that is what you're implying . Indeed, she was pathologically insecure in the relationship and was perpetually in fear that women crawl all over me and that I have either cheated or it was a matter of time till I cheat, and of course neither was true. She was also hot . No, you don't get my point. You say it is superficial/fake to 'require' that your partner have a certain level of intelligence, because one's partner's intelligence has no direct bearing on their 'loveability', the relationship's quality, or your own quality of life. What I'm saying is that everyone has 'requirements' for their partner, whether they will not date someone obese, or unintelligent, or anything else. Simply because you believe it does not affect YOUR relationship quality does not invalidate it as a dealbreaker for others. However, I certainly agree that you need not defend your choice to not require a certain level of intelligence in a partner. Some people do prefer to 'check out' at the doorstep, as opposed to requiring further mental stimulation at home (not necessarily work topics) - and there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that. I was merely referring to your statement that 'having lack of intelligence as a dealbreaker makes your love for the person questionable'. Edited June 18, 2010 by Elswyth
SadandConfusedWA Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Mr White, sorry if I came across as too agressive. I agree with the last post. If you truly require no intellectual stimulation at home, that's certainly OK. I am just dissapointed that a lot of men don't seem to require mental stimulation at home thus making one of my most treasured aspects of myself - pretty much worthless in the dating world.
Ariadne Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Mr White, sorry if I came across as too agressive. I agree with the last post. If you truly require no intellectual stimulation at home, that's certainly OK. I am just dissapointed that a lot of men don't seem to require mental stimulation at home thus making one of my most treasured aspects of myself - pretty much worthless in the dating world. :love: (And your most treasured aspect is that you have a good heart).
SadandConfusedWA Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Update: Follow up on my co-worker story. So today we had a few hours together running simulations. I never told him directly that I thought his wife was not intelligent or that she is obese (that would be rude), but I was still curious. So I asked him a bunch of indirect questions (how and when did you meet, how long did you date etc). He looked straight at me and said "I know exactly what you are thinking: why did I marry her?" So I kind of said "Yeah, the thought has crossed my mind". He explained it like this: when he was younger, he was very geeky/nerdy and not nearly as confident as he is today. He said that he got rejected a lot and never made it past 2 dates with a girl when he met his W at 22. She really liked him and had a "pleasant personality". Suddenly he had a GF. He proposed 6 months later because he was terrified that if he didn't, he will never meet anyone else or worse - go back to being constantly rejected. Now they have been together for 9 years and have no kids. He said in time he got really emotionally attached to her and she keeps a nice home (cooks, cleans etc). He also said that he has met girls since that he would "prefer" but he is loyal and comitted so he stays away from temptation. Gah, so many people settle
SadandConfusedWA Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 :love: (And your most treasured aspect is that you have a good heart). How sweet of you to say that In that respect, you are one of the few people I know that are genuinly kind and pure. I trust you 100% (and you know how I struggle with trust issues).
Ariadne Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 How sweet of you to say that In that respect, you are one of the few people I know that are genuinly kind and pure. I trust you 100% (and you know how I struggle with trust issues). Yey! Thanks. (You already made me walk through the fire, that's why ).
TheBigQuestion Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Oh, I have known him with previous user name and the way he described his GF and R, he IS settling. Do you seriously think just because a couple has been together for 2 years, that it automatically means one of them is NOT settling? Ha, I know plenty of couples that have gotten married because one or both of them settled. Any couple that is not firing on all 3 cylinders (mental,emotional and physical) is settling. As for the intelligent woman that you described that barely talked, she is shy as in *not outgoing* - which has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence. Nah, neither of these girls were shy. Maybe it's an American phenomenon, but I frequently run into people who are very intelligent in the sense that they have higher than normal IQs, can ace standardized tests, and can do near perfect work in difficult academic areas, yet are not really knowledgeable in anything other than the very specific fields in which they work. They're "studiers," usually for the sole purpose of a obtaining a high-paying career, and not people who value knowledge and reason. A person can very easily be very intelligent and simply not be interested in anything. This is why they're unable to really talk about anything, and is largely why the two girls in my example were the way they were. As someone who has no academic interest in chemistry, for example, what benefit would I get to be with someone who could maybe talk about that for a while but really not about anything else? And I think you're committing a fallacy by assuming that mental stimulation can by definition (or at least nearly always) be provided better by those who are highly intelligent. Again, this is not true in my experience, and I don't think there's any empirical way to measure something so subjective either. Not everyone craves the exact same kinds of mental stimulation, and different kinds of mental stimulation may or may not call for different levels of intelligence. As a soon-to-be law student, I know that it's not hard at all for a person of average-to-above-average intelligence to be able to have a meaningful discussion about law. Just an example but this can apply to anything, academic or not.
Mr White Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Mr White, sorry if I came across as too agressive. I agree with the last post. If you truly require no intellectual stimulation at home, that's certainly OK. I am just dissapointed that a lot of men don't seem to require mental stimulation at home thus making one of my most treasured aspects of myself - pretty much worthless in the dating world. I understand the disapointment, but it is really counter productive and really no different from being disapointed by having a grea resume and not getting any calls for interviews (being there, done that for 3 years). You've got the creds, the pubs. and you just can't understand WTF is wrong with everybody. The truth is, you don't know. Maybe regardless of all the cred, you're just a poor fit for the job. Indeed "fit" is the most used and abused word in job searches in my field. Consider the movie "The Matrix". Keanu Reeves is one of the worst actors in history, objectively speaking, yet, the role of Neo is as if written for him. NO actor in the entire world, even the best of the best of the De Niro's Nicholson's etc. etc., could not play it better than lame Keanu Reeves. Here's a less controversial thought experiment - what is it that you think a single guy - and regardless of level of intelligence - does on a regular basis when he goes home at night to the empty apartment (except for the dog?) Does he start calling his colleagues across the ocean to do more work? Does he log on to professional/political/philosophical forums to discuss intelligent topics? While I'm sure that many do, in most cases the answer is a resounding "NO" - he'd pet the dog, lay on the couch, turn on the TV, crack open a beer, walk the dog, read a book, pass out on the couch, etc. . MAYBE go to the gym;). My point being that how would a relationship change the fundamental dynamics of what is essentially a recreational time? Indeed, I would argue that a success in a relationship is to a large extent contingent on an ability to turn off all the professional/intellectual stuff and focus on the companionship etc. Things that depend *much* more on temperament than IQ. Whether you run out of things to talk about is much less dependent on IQ than on mutual interest in each other and consciously putting the effort to have fun.
Mr White Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 I do consider myself quick witted and on the spot funny comments and when chicks are like "huh i dont get it" its kinda annoys me.. I know it's not that I'm not funny I know that it's the fact they don't get the on the spot observational humor.. I like a chick that can be quick witted and come up with a clever comeback or comment.. I'm not that quick witted, but the meshing of sense of humor is important, and inappropriately steamrolled under the whole intelligence discussion. I love my gfs sense of humor - it's a combination of understated, dry, and childish - i.e. kinda like my own. She'd often crack me up or leave me thinking "wow, that's the kind of stupid sh** I would say" :bunny:
brainygirl Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 I'm a smart person. I can read a book or listen to a lecture or have a conversation and recall tiny details from them days or even years later. I am a repository or useless bits of information. I also enjoy "knowing" and tend to study up on things that catch my interest (although my attempt to self teach computer programming failed epically). That being said, I'm also terrible with math and numbers. I'm clumsy and tend to get verabally flustered and have a reputation for sticking my foot in my mouth on a daily basis. I'm terrible at bars and parties because I am just no good at casual flirting and banter. I'm terminally single. My cousin is very similar to me in looks. We both are over weight (not gargantuin, but heavy), we both have a natural hour-glass figure with big boobs and round butts. She's not as smart as me and will admit it. You can tell when you talk to her that she lacks that spark. BUT, she has mad social skills. She can go into a party or bar and know everyone's name in less than ten minutes. She can joke and laugh and have fun and never ever sticks her foot in her mouth. She's married to a very nice man, and while their relationship isn't perfect, they both work at it. I don't think book smarts makes or breaks a person's ability to have a relationship that works, and I DO think there are many ways to be intelligent (Gardner has proposed nine different intelligences). I know that I tend to over think and over analyze when I am in a relationship. I think that's a draw back. I know my tendency to take things too seriously is.
Els Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 I don't think book smarts makes or breaks a person's ability to have a relationship that works This is very true. However, attraction is what it is. I'm pretty sure height, weight, and physical appearance do not affect a person's ability to be a good gf/bf and sustain a good relationship either. But they are very common traits that some people require to even be attracted to a person and thus begin a relationship. Intelligence is the same thing to some of us. I am simply not attracted to a conventionally unintelligent man, the way some people are not attracted to overweight women, or short men, or ugly people.
brainygirl Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 This is very true. However, attraction is what it is. I'm pretty sure height, weight, and physical appearance do not affect a person's ability to be a good gf/bf and sustain a good relationship either. But they are very common traits that some people require to even be attracted to a person and thus begin a relationship. Intelligence is the same thing to some of us. I am simply not attracted to a conventionally unintelligent man, the way some people are not attracted to overweight women, or short men, or ugly people. I agree, a guy has to strike me as smart when I talk to him and I've rejected second dates from guys who seemed unintelligent. As a shorter, fatter girl, I have found that getting upset over someone's preferences never does any good, even if it does hurt my feelings sometimes.
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