Ronni_W Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 Or I tell the truth - that my desire level is low because her desire level is low mem, Unless you two are connected by some type of umbilical cord, that's nonsense. I get that you're wanting to come off all understanding, noble and altruistic, both here and at home. I think it's self-deception. I think you'd be wiser taking responsibility for your own level of desire instead of thinking or pretending that it is connected to hers, and thereby giving her responsibility for what rightly and appropriately belongs only to you. You have a wife who wants to please you, sexually, and who loves and cares enough to want to make sure that your sexual needs are satisfied. I think the way you are dealing with that fact is cold-hearted. Brutal and childish. I can't see how this attitude of yours is going to lead to anything positive and intimate. It is so frustrating to me how individuals can turn a good thing so miserable; how they are so willing to do that, and do it so easily. I'm not getting you at all, mem. I really feel for your wife.
giotto Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 It is so frustrating to me how individuals can turn a good thing so miserable; how they are so willing to do that, and do it so easily. I'm not getting you at all, mem. I really feel for your wife. mem has been visiting this board for too long...
Author mem11363 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Posted June 16, 2010 Ronni, Scenario 1: Friday night: You are on a date with a handsome, funny smart guy. He is radiating zero sexual interest at you. Write down how aroused your are on a 1-10 scale. Saturday night: You go out with his twin brother, who is touching you in a flirty way and is clearly VERY turned on by you. Write down how aroused you are on a 1-10 scale. Compare the two numbers. If they are equal you are totally insensate to how attracted someone is to you. I am not. Scenario 2: Twin brother and you have a sexual relationship. It has been GREAT. Suddenly a new pattern emerges. When he catches you looking at him "that way" he takes you to bed but in bed he kisses you for a while and then ONLY performs oral sex on you. He doesn't get hard, doesn't come. You will want to keep the same frequency as before? If so, I guess we are different. As for the cold/brutal. You are entitled to your opinion. If you asked my wife a simple question: "How often has your H rejected you in the last 2 weeks?" she would look at you in a funny way and say. He hasn't. He never rejects me when I initiate. mem, Unless you two are connected by some type of umbilical cord, that's nonsense. I get that you're wanting to come off all understanding, noble and altruistic, both here and at home. I think it's self-deception. I think you'd be wiser taking responsibility for your own level of desire instead of thinking or pretending that it is connected to hers, and thereby giving her responsibility for what rightly and appropriately belongs only to you. You have a wife who wants to please you, sexually, and who loves and cares enough to want to make sure that your sexual needs are satisfied. I think the way you are dealing with that fact is cold-hearted. Brutal and childish. I can't see how this attitude of yours is going to lead to anything positive and intimate. It is so frustrating to me how individuals can turn a good thing so miserable; how they are so willing to do that, and do it so easily. I'm not getting you at all, mem. I really feel for your wife.
jenifer1972 Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 My suggestion is that your wife should try a low dose biologically equivalent estrogen like estrace, to get through these severe hormonal fluctuations (made from yams) to control the hot flashes, which can make women literally feel flulike and feverish, and then get some testosterone cream which works fabulously for the libido...
Ronni_W Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Ronni, Scenario 1: Friday night: You are on a date with a handsome, funny smart guy. He is radiating zero sexual interest at you. Write down how aroused your are on a 1-10 scale. Saturday night: You go out with his twin brother, who is touching you in a flirty way and is clearly VERY turned on by you. Write down how aroused you are on a 1-10 scale. Compare the two numbers. If they are equal you are totally insensate to how attracted someone is to you. I am not. In an effort to compare apples with apples: I would NOT date my spouse's twin brother! You are having a problem with your wife, not some person you can simply decide to never date again. You do not have the option of just turning to her twin sister. Your awareness of others' feelings of love and attraction to you have nothing to do with it. Scenario 2: Twin brother and you have a sexual relationship. It has been GREAT. Suddenly a new pattern emerges. When he catches you looking at him "that way" he takes you to bed but in bed he kisses you for a while and then ONLY performs oral sex on you. He doesn't get hard, doesn't come.Apples with apples: Obviously I married (or entered into a long-term, live-in relationship with) the sexy and turned-on Twin Brother. Would I withdraw my own love, attraction, compassion, appreciation, respect and admiration from the relationship just because my spouse/long-term partner couldn't get it up, was suffering from some form of ED? Would I turn so cold-hearted at a time that my spouse needs MORE love and compassion from me? No. No, I didn't, mem. I have been there and it lasted more months than I care to say here. I did not withdraw my love, and I didn't go seeking out any "twin brothers". If you asked my wife a simple question: "How often has your H rejected you in the last 2 weeks?" she would look at you in a funny way and say. He hasn't. He never rejects me when I initiate.Not talking about your wife, mem. Talking about what is going in your own head, with your own attitude. If you think that she is totally insensate to how attracted someone is to her...
xxoo Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Would I withdraw my own love, attraction, compassion, appreciation, respect and admiration from the relationship just because my spouse/long-term partner couldn't get it up, was suffering from some form of ED? Would I turn so cold-hearted at a time that my spouse needs MORE love and compassion from me? I can not speak for mem's wife, but only for myself. But I never interpreted my H wanting to wait until I was genuinely into sex to be cold-hearted or lacking compassion. On the contrary, I felt it was extremely compassionate. But it CERTAINLY didn't mean he withdrew his love, attraction, respect, admiration, etc. All of those things were present and obvious. If you think that she is totally insensate to how attracted someone is to her... He is attracted to her.
Ronni_W Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 But I never interpreted my H wanting to wait until I was genuinely into sex to be cold-hearted or lacking compassion. On the contrary, I felt it was extremely compassionate. I am also keeping in mind mem's attitude of, "My libido is low because your libido is low" which is also a message of, "I'll be more attracted to you when you are more attracted to me" -- compassion doesn't exist within power struggles, and it is also not compassionate to make someone else responsible for one's own stuff. IMO. He is attracted to her.I was speaking to the fact that he hasn't yet turned her down, actually. His mind also has all of this stuff running through it, consciously and subconsciously -- he has programmed it in, good and solid, by the sounds of it. So, if he is NOT turning her down (at least once in a while), then some of the times he is doing it just because she has approached him "first". I am suggesting that she is fully aware of what is going on at those times; that she is not totally insensate to those times. The alternative is that mem really and truly has no authority or control over his own sexual needs, urges and responses -- and I won't believe that until he tells me so, himself.
giotto Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 I think it's very natural sometimes not to feel sexual when your spouse doesn't feel sexual... it's just a normal reaction... is it an ego trip? Maybe, but I don't know mem personally, so I can't really say.
Ronni_W Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 I think it's very natural sometimes not to feel sexual when your spouse doesn't feel sexual... it's just a normal reaction Gio, yes, I totally agree with you. When everything is 'good and healthy' then couples can and do nourish and nurture each other, including sexually. But when hormones and chemicals (or diseases or illnesses) are at the root of any change in sexual attraction, frequency and whatever else...if the remaining "healthy" partner is going to start acting like they are affected in the same way as if their hormones and chemicals had also gotten thrown out of whack or their bodies had also become sick or diseased, then... Well, to each his or her own. Of course. I'm just not seeing how such thinking and behaviour will contribute anything positive; I'm just not seeing how it nourishes or nurtures anything 'good and healthy'. mem, you do have the 100% right to choose your own thoughts, perceptions and behaviours -- I am not trying to take any part of that away from you in any way, shape or form. And I am wishing, hoping and praying that you and your wife will both enjoy a happy and fulfilling-in-every-way relationship "for as long as ye both shall live." That is the bottom line, really.
Author mem11363 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Posted June 16, 2010 R, I have not changed my "non sexual" behavior at all. Hugs, kisses, ILY's, me cooking - she hates to cook. I am not a cold guy - quite the opposite. Last night we spooned for 2 full episodes of Army Wives with short breaks when she had "hot flashes" :). My message to her was not "you have killed my desire level". It was "I like being in synch such that we don't have a large desire mismatch. My desire seems linked to yours." I thought that a statement of connection - not placement of blame. I do think I get your point - though I wish it were delivered with a less harsh tone. I gave her a light vibe last night and she gave it back. Maybe we will play tonight.... I am also keeping in mind mem's attitude of, "My libido is low because your libido is low" which is also a message of, "I'll be more attracted to you when you are more attracted to me" -- compassion doesn't exist within power struggles, and it is also not compassionate to make someone else responsible for one's own stuff. IMO. I was speaking to the fact that he hasn't yet turned her down, actually. His mind also has all of this stuff running through it, consciously and subconsciously -- he has programmed it in, good and solid, by the sounds of it. So, if he is NOT turning her down (at least once in a while), then some of the times he is doing it just because she has approached him "first". I am suggesting that she is fully aware of what is going on at those times; that she is not totally insensate to those times. The alternative is that mem really and truly has no authority or control over his own sexual needs, urges and responses -- and I won't believe that until he tells me so, himself.
Author mem11363 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Posted June 16, 2010 Thanks X, One useful thing to come out of this thread was the realization that this desire link might be two way. Meaning that maybe if I flirt with her a bit in a playful way that will boost her desire level. Oddly enough I don't think I have done much of that in many, many years. We are playful with each other and joke around. We are affectionate with and nice to each other. But sexually we tend to mainly "plan" as in "are we or aren't we". I can not speak for mem's wife, but only for myself. But I never interpreted my H wanting to wait until I was genuinely into sex to be cold-hearted or lacking compassion. On the contrary, I felt it was extremely compassionate. But it CERTAINLY didn't mean he withdrew his love, attraction, respect, admiration, etc. All of those things were present and obvious. He is attracted to her.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 (edited) but mem you've had too much of a good thing for too long......... Sex and good sex regularly 2-4X's/wk for 20 odd years. You've too shown yourself to be quite vain talking about attractiveness, including your ability to stay in shape and actually being upset when you became a little "flabby"..... And then you tell us your wife has put on all of 10 lbs on a 110 lbs frame and do admit offhanded that it bothers you in some convoluted/muddled way.... You also are the only man I know on LS who freely admits his wife doesn't orgasm all the time;), and actually probably doesn't a fair bit, which tells me how selfless she is and lucky you are.... So your wife is going through menopause, prepare for a rollercoaster, if she wants to please you and you feel guilty, have a quickie or as another poster suggested, learn to masterbate, and finally quit analyzing every god damn minute of your sex life..... What are we up to 10 f*&%ing days of this "problem"!!!! Can't believe I misspelled again and cant correct it.... Edited June 16, 2010 by Toodamnpragmatic
Author mem11363 Posted June 16, 2010 Author Posted June 16, 2010 TDP, Don't feel bad, most people can't type very well while gloating. :) I won't apologize for being vain because said apology would be insincere. Rest assured my better half mocks me relentlessly on this topic. Fortunately I have other flaws that dwarf vanity and am currently working on those! As for my preoccupation with this topic - clearly a case of the pot speaking to the kettle. TDP - courtesy of your perceptive observations I could smash all the mirrors in the house and still retain a clear picture of myself. Perhaps you would do me the kindness of adopting more of a "funhouse" mirror shape. Perhaps you might reflect me in a manner that would make me taller, or less judgmental, or all of the above at once..... but mem you've had too much of a good thing for too long......... Sex and good sex regularly 2-4X's/wk for 20 odd years. You've too shown yourself to be quite vain talking about attractiveness, including your ability to stay in shape and actually being upset when you became a little "flabby"..... And then you tell us your wife has put on all of 10 lbs on a 110 lbs frame and do admit offhanded that it bothers you in some convoluted/muddled way.... You also are the only man I know on LS who freely admits his wife doesn't orgasm all the time;), and actually probably doesn't a fair bit, which tells me how selfless she is and lucky you are.... So your wife is going through menopause, prepare for a rollercoaster, if she wants to please you and you feel guilty, have a quickie or as another poster suggested, learn to masterbate, and finally quit analyzing every god damn minute of your sex life..... What are we up to 10 f*&%ing days of this "problem"!!!! Can't believe I misspelled again and cant correct it....
jenifer1972 Posted June 17, 2010 Posted June 17, 2010 Two words will solve your problem: bioidentical hormones. I'm completely serious. While I'm no Suzanne Somers fan, her book The Sexy Years might help. But seriously, she should look into bioidentical hormones. It's not that wild yam crap. Excuse me, estrace is bio identical. The yam estrogen is the same as the human estrogen...I have been prescribing it for close to 20 yrs. How long have you been prescribing it???? God, people are getting bloody nasty on this thread..
Ronni_W Posted June 17, 2010 Posted June 17, 2010 I do think I get your point - though I wish it were delivered with a less harsh tone. Yes, mem. Sorry about that. Rightly or wrongly, I perceived that I'd not be best serving you, your wife or your marriage by "babying" you, at that point. If it helps any, I did also take into account my sense of you, that you could "take it" so to speak; that you'd not lose esteem over it. My message to her was not "you have killed my desire level". It was "I like being in synch such that we don't have a large desire mismatch. My desire seems linked to yours." I thought that a statement of connection - not placement of blame.Yeah, I appreciate your intention. But, no, it's not really a statement of "connection" esp. not when said to a woman who is starting menopause. The same as it would not be, if said to a man with erectile dysfunction; or to any person with any condition that wreaks havoc with his/her hormones, chemicals and previously-normal bodily functions, urges and responses. Under those specific circumstances, perhaps you can also see how such a statement might just go across (be perceived/felt) as a statement of complaint, or of trying to change something about the other person's desire levels (of trying to influence or manipulate an 'adjustment' on her or his side), or of lack of knowledge and understanding of what erectile dysfunction or menopause actually is and how it, respectively, affects those who are having to cope with it. Yes, it's just my perspective/opinion. But I'd encourage you to try it on just for fun, and just for a second. Better yet, continue to have honest and open conversations with your wife about what she would most like you to say and do. And continue to love, admire and appreciate each other
xxoo Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 Under those specific circumstances, perhaps you can also see how such a statement might just go across (be perceived/felt) as a statement of complaint, or of trying to change something about the other person's desire levels (of trying to influence or manipulate an 'adjustment' on her or his side), or of lack of knowledge and understanding of what erectile dysfunction or menopause actually is and how it, respectively, affects those who are having to cope with it. I don't mean to be obtuse , but I don't see it. How could this be interpreted as manipulation? I see it (and experienced it) as acceptance and, yes, connection. Also, I was a bit flattered, because it meant he didn't just want a "receptacle". He wanted me, fully into the sex. And if I wasn't into it, yes, that affected his desire--he was at peace with less sex, because his libido was lower, too. And I was grateful! It is interesting how different women can respond completely differently
Ronni_W Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 I don't mean to be obtuse , but I don't see it. How could this be interpreted as manipulation? I listed three different ways that it ***MIGHT*** be taken. Depending on one's usual outlook, dispositions and/or hormone levels at any specific time, the same person might take it differently (at different times.) I am not saying, did not and will not say that anybody or everybody WILL perceive it in any one of the ways I listed. There could also be a hundred different ways that it MIGHT be perceived, that my brain is too limited to think about. Only the individuals doing the perceiving will know for sure, and only after they become consciously aware of their own perceptions and feelings. I'm very glad for you, xxoo, that your husband was able to convey his loving and supportive sentiments to you, lovingly and supportively. Not every individual can do that as effectively as, apparently, your husband can. We also do not know if mem's wife would have perceived things in exactly the same way that you did, or will be doing that even if mem does and says EXACTLY what and how your husband did. You're personalizing it, and I am generalizing...for mem's benefit -- to give him OTHER perspectives that he can, but does not have to, use to make his own assessments and decisions in, about and for his own marriage.
Author mem11363 Posted June 18, 2010 Author Posted June 18, 2010 Ronni, I have spent a lot of years doing sales. Not single transaction sales - but large ongoing sales with corporate customers. I don't know how to play golf and that whole approach to selling never really appealed to me. The thing I liked best was trying to rotate the table 180 degrees. To see the landscape from where the buyer sat. This rotational skill is based almost exclusively on two components: - That the way I react to situations is "typical" that my reactions are generally similar if not the same to most other people in a given situation. - The ability to honestly project myself into someone else's context and imagine myself there. To see what I would see if I were actually them. To make some adjustments for differences in their risk tolerance or appetite for detail. Or maybe their lack of trust in software sales people based on prior experience. And when I finished that exercise I would abstract and abstract until I could summarize what I thought THEY were thinking into a fairly concise message. And then I would test that by asking do you think that "xxx" is about where we are. So the whole ED thing - really liked that - never thought about that angle. I asked myself how would I feel if my W said - you know this ED thing has actually lowered my desire level. I would interpret that to mean "I am not sitting here grinding my teeth, frustrated and resentful that YOU don't want me or can't perform the way I want as often as I want" In a word I would be relieved. I would far prefer that to her being frustrated and sexually unfulfilled. I believe - not a true mind reader but a consistently good wife reader - that is how she feels. As for "babying" me - lol - no need. My self esteem is sort of a 50/50 deal. Half is internally generated and the other half comes from my better half who is strikingly honest with me. I listed three different ways that it ***MIGHT*** be taken. Depending on one's usual outlook, dispositions and/or hormone levels at any specific time, the same person might take it differently (at different times.) I am not saying, did not and will not say that anybody or everybody WILL perceive it in any one of the ways I listed. There could also be a hundred different ways that it MIGHT be perceived, that my brain is too limited to think about. Only the individuals doing the perceiving will know for sure, and only after they become consciously aware of their own perceptions and feelings. I'm very glad for you, xxoo, that your husband was able to convey his loving and supportive sentiments to you, lovingly and supportively. Not every individual can do that as effectively as, apparently, your husband can. We also do not know if mem's wife would have perceived things in exactly the same way that you did, or will be doing that even if mem does and says EXACTLY what and how your husband did. You're personalizing it, and I am generalizing...for mem's benefit -- to give him OTHER perspectives that he can, but does not have to, use to make his own assessments and decisions in, about and for his own marriage.
Ronni_W Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 And then I would test that by asking do you think that "xxx" is about where we are. ... I believe - not a true mind reader but a consistently good wife reader - that is how she feels. That is excellent, mem. I hope that she will confirm that for you when you "test that by asking". That is exactly what I would have suggested you do, had you not already indicated that you do, as a matter of course, confirm your suspicions/assumptions/guesses (whatever you call them before the person in question has actually confirmed them to be true.) Yeah, I actually didn't think that you needed to be 'babied"...but then you whined about me being "harsh" -- no worries, though, I shan't do it again.
giotto Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 As I said before, I think what mem is experiencing is normal. But I were his wife, despite the menopausal interferences, I would be somewhat hurt by a lower desire from my husband, just because of hormones. It might be good on the long run (would solve the mismatched libidos problem), but on the short term she might find it hurtful.
Author mem11363 Posted June 18, 2010 Author Posted June 18, 2010 Ronni, I like straight talk. I am fine with blunt. But your initial tone with me was beyond blunt, it was harsh. I pointed out that I didn't like it. You have now talked about my need to be "babied" and my "whining". I frankly don't "need" anything. But I am not going to tolerate a harsh tone followed by a persistent message that "I" am the problem. FYI: And I think you already know this very well. There are certainly emotionally laden terms you can throw at a female. They are nasty and frankly I don't recall using them on any board since they tend to cause the conversation to rapidly degrade. Calling a grown man a baby and then a whiner is no different. Desist or depart. That is excellent, mem. I hope that she will confirm that for you when you "test that by asking". That is exactly what I would have suggested you do, had you not already indicated that you do, as a matter of course, confirm your suspicions/assumptions/guesses (whatever you call them before the person in question has actually confirmed them to be true.) Yeah, I actually didn't think that you needed to be 'babied"...but then you whined about me being "harsh" -- no worries, though, I shan't do it again.
Mr White Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 (edited) OP, I've got to tell you, I'm kinda looking forward to being close to 50 and not being so hung up on sex anymore. I'd get so much more stuff done !At 50ish, there are plenty of other ways to be a badass. So, If you're fine and she's fine, it's all fine. But I understand how lack of desire can feed upon itself, and I'm sure that's stressful. The point is that it is stressful "in principle", for its own sake, it sounds like you'd be fine with reduced frequency at this point. Also, I doubt that it would be so hard for her to understand and accept that of course her lack of desire is affecting you. Duh. The most important part of sex is enthusiasm, and it is hard to get that one without any assistance from your own body. Basic fact of life is that it develops in "chapters", so I personally wouldn't be so depressed about crossing from one chapter to the next beyond the normal discomfort of any transition. Edited June 18, 2010 by Mr White
Ronni_W Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 mem, Again, sorry -- I can see that (again) I did not do a good job of conveying to you what was in my head. I do not believe that you are (or your wife is) the problem. I think it's just menopause, or the onset thereof. To be sure, I have very much appreciated and respected your understanding and insights that are reflected in your posts, in general. I get that I have not helped you (that my thoughts/experience and the way I express myself do not match up with your goals for this thread.) I won't keep troubling and frustrating you, mem. It is not my goal or desire to do that to people who are already struggling with their own life/relationship challenges. I sincerely do wish you and your wife the best. Ronni, I like straight talk. I am fine with blunt. But your initial tone with me was beyond blunt, it was harsh. I pointed out that I didn't like it. You have now talked about my need to be "babied" and my "whining". I frankly don't "need" anything. But I am not going to tolerate a harsh tone followed by a persistent message that "I" am the problem. FYI: And I think you already know this very well. There are certainly emotionally laden terms you can throw at a female. They are nasty and frankly I don't recall using them on any board since they tend to cause the conversation to rapidly degrade. Calling a grown man a baby and then a whiner is no different. Desist or depart.
Author mem11363 Posted June 18, 2010 Author Posted June 18, 2010 Ronni, We are good. I have gained insight from your posts on this thread and others and am grateful for your honest feedback. I am sure that I didn't provide sufficient context in my initial post and likely came across in a negative manner. In the meantime things have heated up a bit. No idea if that is a result of the lightly sexual vibe I have started giving her of if her hormone levels are bouncing around. Either way when we connected a couple nights ago it seemed to be as good for her as it was for me. :) mem, Again, sorry -- I can see that (again) I did not do a good job of conveying to you what was in my head. I do not believe that you are (or your wife is) the problem. I think it's just menopause, or the onset thereof. To be sure, I have very much appreciated and respected your understanding and insights that are reflected in your posts, in general. I get that I have not helped you (that my thoughts/experience and the way I express myself do not match up with your goals for this thread.) I won't keep troubling and frustrating you, mem. It is not my goal or desire to do that to people who are already struggling with their own life/relationship challenges. I sincerely do wish you and your wife the best.
Author mem11363 Posted June 18, 2010 Author Posted June 18, 2010 X, Part of me maturing was realizing that sex is not something I do "to" my wife, it is something I do "with" my wife. Completely changed how I approach it and feel about it. I think you and your H have a very special marriage. Thank you for your help. I don't mean to be obtuse , but I don't see it. How could this be interpreted as manipulation? I see it (and experienced it) as acceptance and, yes, connection. Also, I was a bit flattered, because it meant he didn't just want a "receptacle". He wanted me, fully into the sex. And if I wasn't into it, yes, that affected his desire--he was at peace with less sex, because his libido was lower, too. And I was grateful! It is interesting how different women can respond completely differently
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