never thought I would make this post

[mem11363]

W is almost 48 - going through menopause. Her raw physical desire for me has dropped a lot recently. Her emotional desire to please me hasn't changed at all. In fact - overall (ignoring the sexual aspect) our marriage has never been better. She is not depressed - not fatigued. And I haven't changed - physically - behaviorally - etc.

 

Last week we connected and she said "tonight is all about you" which ok - is not that unusual - she's a giver. Still when we finished I realized that while she enjoyed pleasing me, her body was not really responding to me. Not a dryness thing - but I could just tell that at a raw physical level she wasn't feeling very much.

 

So a few days after that she let me know that we could connect - in that nice light bantering manner she has. I said "great" and then managed our schedule such that by the time we finished our favorite show it was late. So we crashed. And now 4 days later I have put us off a few more times because I can tell she is just being kind.

 

The thing is I don't feel angry, rejected, frustrated. I am not depressed or resentful. She has no direct control over how her body responds - and I am pretty sure this is not a boredom, or lack of desire for me specifically. I think it is a hormonal thing.

 

The oddest thing is that in my current (mid drive) state, her lack of desire is causing me to go into "low drive" mode. I simply don't feel the "want" to connect with her when it is so "one sided". So I am just softly walking that fine line:

- on one side I connect with her when I know her body doesn't really want to

- on the other, she feels like I no longer desire her

 

I think it is going to take her a long time to wrap her head around the idea that my desire for her is now mirroring hers for me. Because we have a 20 year history of me being HD enough that her level of desire didn't really impact mine. But hey - some of that was predicated on my T levels being VERY high, and the rest was based on the fact that "usually" I could get her in the mood and she was willing to let me.

 

And yes - yes - I can directly tell her all this. And we have a history of open and honest communication. Still I think she is going to have a hard time believing that my reaction is based on hers. Plus I don't want her to feel bad about something she can't directly control.

 

We are going to the gym together today - she hasn't worked out in a while, I am hoping that maybe a regular workout regime will help. But what if it doesn't. How do you tell someone - after 21 years of being VERY sexual, that you really are ok with a very much reduced frequency?

 

Crazy as it sounds - right now - I think I would be fine with twice a month - or maybe less. The fact that she is clearly willing to connect makes a really big difference as I have zero "need" for her to show me she loves me by getting undressed. Because I know she gladly will if I ask - just to be nice.

 

Sorry for long strange ramble.

 

P.S. I am going to credit some of my recent enlightenment to xxoo - thank you x.

[xxoo]

Aw, thanks for the props, mem. Your posts have opened my eyes to the male side of things, too!

 

The oddest thing is that in my current (mid drive) state, her lack of desire is causing me to go into "low drive" mode. I simply don't feel the "want" to connect with her when it is so "one sided". So I am just softly walking that fine line:

- on one side I connect with her when I know her body doesn't really want to

- on the other, she feels like I no longer desire her

.

 

I have some questions about "connect". Is it always sex? Can you "connect" and show desire, and leave it there for the evening? Or will she feel guilty about leaving you unsatisfied? Can you admire and touch her body in desirous ways with the understanding that sex WON'T happen?

 

I have some more thoughts/experiences on this subject, but they are very personal. I'll share if they might be helpful, but I don't want to overshare if it isn't applicable

[Stung]

Q: is Mrs. Mem going through menopause naturally, is she taking supplements, is she trying hormone replacement...?

[tnttim]

I have 2 perspectives on this.

 

#1

Maybe its your age and sex is not important to either of you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a low sex M if both partners are in agreement, hey some people would rather fish. I think a solid M comes from everything but sex, its the little things. Sex is just the icing on the cake, and as an adult I found out the icing isn't as good as it sounds.

 

#2

Where is the initiater in sex if both of you are holding back? How is sexual desire being built?

 

So how do you answer these questions?

 

After 27 years you should know your woman inside and out. If not, then nows the time to pay attention to her. Complimate the things she's proud of. Tie the things she's proud of to being sexy. Heal her pain. Get a little attention from other females. Its that easy. Then you can withhold sex and her tension will build.

[mem11363]

I have always used the term "connect" to mean sex. But tonight she offered to have sex and I declined because I was certain she was neither aroused nor arousable. And we talked openly about this situation. I told her that my desire level is much lower because I can "FEEL" that hers is very low. She is so cool - she didn't dispute that her drive is at least for the moment - in absentia. And that was good - I would feel anxious if I thought my ability to read her was badly broken - it is not. And I would feel WORSE if I thought she felt obligated to lie to me.

 

Instead - she said that she likes to make me happy and would be glad to. And I explained that at least for now, her lack of desire was greatly reducing my desire. And I added that I was in no way upset, insulted, hurt, offended or angry about that. Raw desire is not directly controllable. I also thanked her for being kind and continuing to offer to have sex with me even when she was not really feeling it. I explained that to me - the "thought" counted more than the deed.

 

So I gently rubbed her legs and she scratched my back. And I told her that when I get to the point where I feel truly "needy" I will let her know. And then I told her I had never felt more close to anyone and turned off the light so she could go to sleep.

 

 

Aw, thanks for the props, mem. Your posts have opened my eyes to the male side of things, too!

 

 

 

I have some questions about "connect". Is it always sex? Can you "connect" and show desire, and leave it there for the evening? Or will she feel guilty about leaving you unsatisfied? Can you admire and touch her body in desirous ways with the understanding that sex WON'T happen?

 

I have some more thoughts/experiences on this subject, but they are very personal. I'll share if they might be helpful, but I don't want to overshare if it isn't applicable

[whichwayisup]

So I gently rubbed her legs and she scratched my back. And I told her that when I get to the point where I feel truly "needy" I will let her know. And then I told her I had never felt more close to anyone and turned off the light so she could go to sleep.

 

You're a great husband, she's lucky to have such a loving and understanding person by her side.

 

Your life is not just based on sex, the physical part of it. You two are going through a dry spell, and each of you are dealing with it honestly, and are still intimate and loving on so many other levels. Sex is great but it's not the only thing holding you two together and definately isn't an issue where you might look elsewhere, like so many others do when their sex life changes.

 

Thanks for sharing your story.

[mem11363]

Up until 2 weeks ago the landscape looked loosely like this:

1. Three to four nights a week she was either tired or something had happened that left her in an emotionally non-sexual place.

2. That left 3-4 nights that something "could" happen

3. On one of those nights she would directly initiate

4. And on one of the other "open" nights I would initiate. And on those nights even though she didn't start out aroused, I have some nice ways of getting her turned on - that she seems to like.

5. FWIW initiation protocol was simply saying to the other person shortly after dinner "tonight?" in a questioning voice. The answer was almost always an immediate yes, and if it wasn't yes, it was "can I rock your world tomorrow?"

6. So "rejection" simply didn't happen - and frequency was at a level we were both very happy with

 

I can however read her super well and 2 weeks ago her desire crept away on little cat feet. And since then, she has repeatedly made it clear that she is more than happy to connect - but the couple times we have I can TELL she isn't feeling it.

 

As for what I do to "get her" in the mood. She says and I believe she means it that she is "in love" with me. She sure acts that way overall - and hey it is mutual so all good. Our normal pattern of being playful - teasing each other etc. always did the trick - we really have a lot of fun together and are BOTH really nice to each other. I don't think she is bored because this was like a desire cliff. It was NOT gradual. And she is having a LOT of hot flashes. A LOT. I mean like lying naked in front of a good sized brand new fan I just bought us 3 weeks ago - naked with the fan on high - and she is saying "I am STILL melting." And she has even set the AC a couple degrees lower than it used to be.

 

Do you think it is odd that her lack of desire is greatly reducing my desire? It sure is convenient.

 

 

 

I have 2 perspectives on this.

 

#1

Maybe its your age and sex is not important to either of you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a low sex M if both partners are in agreement, hey some people would rather fish. I think a solid M comes from everything but sex, its the little things. Sex is just the icing on the cake, and as an adult I found out the icing isn't as good as it sounds.

 

#2

Where is the initiater in sex if both of you are holding back? How is sexual desire being built?

 

So how do you answer these questions?

 

After 27 years you should know your woman inside and out. If not, then nows the time to pay attention to her. Complimate the things she's proud of. Tie the things she's proud of to being sexy. Heal her pain. Get a little attention from other females. Its that easy. Then you can withhold sex and her tension will build.

[2sunny]

mem - this is what healthy looks like. while you may not be having sex... you are both building intimacy at a level most married folks never experience or even know is possible. emotions and the mind play such a big role in the act of sex and when it is all inclusive it is the ultimate in intimacy.

 

to be that much "in tune" with her desire - is usually not within a man's capabilities. to be honest is key... and i think you are both doing a good job. when you say you don't want her to do it if she doesn't "feel" it - is huge... yes, that would be a form of lying if she were to do that for you. i'm afraid it may also put you in a position of being more selfish (or the taker and her only the giver).

 

she seems giving. so do you. when you can equally give and receive = that is good balance and a good connection. to pretend otherwise isn't a healthy balance.

 

to build a stronger connection mentally and emotionally in the meantime will only make it better when you do have sex again.

 

i'm interested to know how this plays out. i'm excited for your growth!

[mem11363]

For 21 years she has been an incredible partner, friend, wife, mother and yes an amazing lover. So I feel close to her - very close. And I know she feels really close to me. I always thought this kind of desire cliff would cause a lot of havoc and tension in a marriage. This is just the opposite though.

 

In the past when she offered but I could tell she was really tired sometimes I would say "I love you enough not to make love to you tonight" And I always meant it. I think this situation calls for that mindset - consistently.

 

 

mem - this is what healthy looks like. while you may not be having sex... you are both building intimacy at a level most married folks never experience or even know is possible. emotions and the mind play such a big role in the act of sex and when it is all inclusive it is the ultimate in intimacy.

 

to be that much "in tune" with her desire - is usually not within a man's capabilities. to be honest is key... and i think you are both doing a good job. when you say you don't want her to do it if she doesn't "feel" it - is huge... yes, that would be a form of lying if she were to do that for you. i'm afraid it may also put you in a position of being more selfish (or the taker and her only the giver).

 

she seems giving. so do you. when you can equally give and receive = that is good balance and a good connection. to pretend otherwise isn't a healthy balance.

 

to build a stronger connection mentally and emotionally in the meantime will only make it better when you do have sex again.

 

i'm interested to know how this plays out. i'm excited for your growth!

[SarahRose]

It sounds like just the natural course of things. You are both getting older and hormone levels drop off. If you are both happy, that is what counts.

[RegardingMe]

My DH and I have been going through something very similar. I have had the same issues as your wife. Right now, I truly just enjoy him enjoying himself. I don't need completion with him to be in a good place and closer togather. He knows I truly love him. He is very attentive to me and very loving and I feel better in our relationship then ever.

[xxoo]

First of all--while I'm no expert on menopause--her symptoms sound very acute right now. Certainly you can both rest assured that the way she is feeling now (overall) is temporary, and will change. It is likely that her sex drive will also change (many times, maybe) with the process.

 

she has repeatedly made it clear that she is more than happy to connect - but the couple times we have I can TELL she isn't feeling it.

 

This is how it was for us when my drive was low (after each baby, for a year or so). Maybe because H knew how great sex is when I'm into it, he simply wasn't interested in the sex I offered when I wasn't personally into it. How could it compare?

 

Do you think it is odd that her lack of desire is greatly reducing my desire? It sure is convenient.

 

H reported the same, to a point. He was younger (early-mid 30s, depending on the kid), and had a high drive--but some of his drive is in response to my behavior. The hotter the sex is, the more he wants it. If sex is more lukewarm (because I'm not crazy into it), his desire for it is less.

 

So I gently rubbed her legs and she scratched my back. And I told her that when I get to the point where I feel truly "needy" I will let her know. And then I told her I had never felt more close to anyone and turned off the light so she could go to sleep.

 

Beautiful, mem.

 

I've said before that the times when my drive was low, and our sex was infrequent, were ALSO times when we grew much closer. It wasn't because we weren't having sex; it was because we'd just had a(nother) baby and we were ironing out our teamwork and appreciating each other's support and love and presence.

 

But the personal part: our baseline is high-touch. Touch isn't necessarily foreplay, initiation, pressure for sex, or even interest in sex. Touch is daily, period. If my H stopped touching my body (all of my body) every night before sleep, I'd be concerned . If I suddenly shied away from his touch, he'd be concerned. So that is our daily "connection", and evidence of desire and love. Sex is something extra, that depends on mutual desire.

[giotto]

Do you think it is odd that her lack of desire is greatly reducing my desire? It sure is convenient.

 

No, mem, it's not odd. It's normal... when you know that your spouse doesn't desire you, your libido eventually drops as well. I am in this situation... after finally realising and accepting that my wife doesn't really desire me (as you know), my libido has completely disappeared... I don't even masturbate anymore... just dead down there... the brain can be incredibly powerful...

[mem11363]

Giotto,

I get it. I do. I am kind of glad really. I don't like to self pleasure so I would rather lack desire.

 

No, mem, it's not odd. It's normal... when you know that your spouse doesn't desire you, your libido eventually drops as well. I am in this situation... after finally realising and accepting that my wife doesn't really desire me (as you know), my libido has completely disappeared... I don't even masturbate anymore... just dead down there... the brain can be incredibly powerful...

[mem11363]

X,

Your H really sounds like an incredible guy. I think he beat me to "full" maturity by 10 years.

 

We are also high touch. Last night was nice though - she came and sat on my lap in the pool and she was very high touch in general. And we watched our favorite show like we always do lying side by side touching from arm to ankle. We have lots and lots of touch that is purely for contact not for foreplay. In fact it is almost like I have a switch inside that is "off" by default. Unless she does something overtly sexual I don't radiate a sexual vibe at her and don't feel one inside. This is NOT lack of attraction. I am attracted. It just feels "wrong" for the higher drive partner to be in full "pant" when the lower drive partner simply wants affection.

 

 

 

 

First of all--while I'm no expert on menopause--her symptoms sound very acute right now. Certainly you can both rest assured that the way she is feeling now (overall) is temporary, and will change. It is likely that her sex drive will also change (many times, maybe) with the process.

 

 

 

This is how it was for us when my drive was low (after each baby, for a year or so). Maybe because H knew how great sex is when I'm into it, he simply wasn't interested in the sex I offered when I wasn't personally into it. How could it compare?

 

 

 

H reported the same, to a point. He was younger (early-mid 30s, depending on the kid), and had a high drive--but some of his drive is in response to my behavior. The hotter the sex is, the more he wants it. If sex is more lukewarm (because I'm not crazy into it), his desire for it is less.

 

 

 

Beautiful, mem.

 

I've said before that the times when my drive was low, and our sex was infrequent, were ALSO times when we grew much closer. It wasn't because we weren't having sex; it was because we'd just had a(nother) baby and we were ironing out our teamwork and appreciating each other's support and love and presence.

 

But the personal part: our baseline is high-touch. Touch isn't necessarily foreplay, initiation, pressure for sex, or even interest in sex. Touch is daily, period. If my H stopped touching my body (all of my body) every night before sleep, I'd be concerned . If I suddenly shied away from his touch, he'd be concerned. So that is our daily "connection", and evidence of desire and love. Sex is something extra, that depends on mutual desire.

[Ronni_W]

and I am pretty sure this is not a boredom, or lack of desire for me specifically. I think it is a hormonal thing.

 

I think it is going to take her a long time to wrap her head around the idea that my desire for her is now mirroring hers for me.

mem, all love and respect to you...but.

But if that first bit I quoted is accurate, then the second bit is pure and utter bullcrap. [because] Hers is a "hormonal thing" while you are CONSCIOUSLY REJECTING her. Not only that, but you're basing your entire "case" on your own perceptions, guesses and assumptions. You only sensed a less-than-usual interest/motivation/whatever. That could as easily be your chemicals, hormones or whatevers doing a number on you. Possibly?

 

I do agree that she will not be able to grasp that your behaviour is simply mirroring hers...and she will have good reason for her lack of grasping, especially if she is intelligent and likes a little bit of logic with your blame .

 

A different way of looking at it is that what she is offering you is heartfelt, authentic, and shows her obvious commitment to you, awareness of your needs, and desire to uphold ALL the vows she made to you. [Edit to add: And "generous". I was going to type that she is also expressing and demonstrating amazing generosity of spirit. Of course, this entire paragraph is based on an assumption that your assumptions, about what she is actually feeling, are accurate. /end edit]

 

Your other reaction could have been one of immense appreciation, admiration and gratitude. In other words, to count and be thankful for your blessings.

 

Now...if you want to hear what I think of the reaction you have opted for, I will tell you (but it ain't gonna be pretty!)

 

Turn it around in your head, mem. What's going on in there right now is not up to your usual high standard.

Hugs and best.

Edited June 14, 2010 by Ronni_W
noted

[tnttim]

Do you think it has to do with the fact that you feel unattractive to your wife?

 

Sort of like a defense mechanism to protect your manliness?

 

IMO male self esteem is a problem no ones addresses, ala what we are brought up to be. Like your coach saying suck it up and be a man, boys don't cry, so on and so forth.

 

When I know my Ws not going to be into it, I don't initiate or I refuse her initiation. If she asks, I tell her I'm not in the mood. She will get mad and take it personally but that is the simple truth. I never blame her or give her a reason why, and why do I do that because it leaves her guessing and it makes her think. It also gets her in the habit of only initiating when she really wants it. I noticed how easy it was to get her in the habit of rejecting me, so I figured it works both ways and it really does work. Its a habit I can live with.

[Scrybe]

Hey Mem - Thanks for posting this. You've read and commented on some of my recent postings so you have a fair idea about where I am in having more and better sex with my LD wife.

 

One of the new sensations I've experienced since my newest approach was learning that I didn't want sex all the time the way I thought I did. Maybe I was holding on to my earlier years when that was the absolute truth.

 

I'm 36 and based on your wife's age I'm assuming you are 10-15 years older than me.

 

Our situation isn't exactly similar but it's nice to know that the changes you've experienced and are experiencing are nothing for me to get to worked up about. I can't tell you how difficult is was for me to accept that the days of me being ready to go anywhere and anytime are drawing to a close. It's been scary accepting that I don't mind being affectionate with my wife without being sexual more than I used to.

 

Anyway...we've been "connecting" a couple of times a week lately which is fine with me though as of today it's been a week. Circumstances during the past week have made it difficult to get together and in the mood simultaneously. Half of me is annoyed but the other half doesn't mind actually. It's like my brain is telling me this is wrong but my heart really is fine about it. Does that make sense? Anyway....I sure we'll make time for each other some time this week so I'm not worried right now.

 

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing.

W is almost 48 - going through menopause. Her raw physical desire for me has dropped a lot recently. Her emotional desire to please me hasn't changed at all. In fact - overall (ignoring the sexual aspect) our marriage has never been better. She is not depressed - not fatigued. And I haven't changed - physically - behaviorally - etc.

 

Last week we connected and she said "tonight is all about you" which ok - is not that unusual - she's a giver. Still when we finished I realized that while she enjoyed pleasing me, her body was not really responding to me. Not a dryness thing - but I could just tell that at a raw physical level she wasn't feeling very much.

 

So a few days after that she let me know that we could connect - in that nice light bantering manner she has. I said "great" and then managed our schedule such that by the time we finished our favorite show it was late. So we crashed. And now 4 days later I have put us off a few more times because I can tell she is just being kind.

 

The thing is I don't feel angry, rejected, frustrated. I am not depressed or resentful. She has no direct control over how her body responds - and I am pretty sure this is not a boredom, or lack of desire for me specifically. I think it is a hormonal thing.

 

The oddest thing is that in my current (mid drive) state, her lack of desire is causing me to go into "low drive" mode. I simply don't feel the "want" to connect with her when it is so "one sided". So I am just softly walking that fine line:

- on one side I connect with her when I know her body doesn't really want to

- on the other, she feels like I no longer desire her

 

I think it is going to take her a long time to wrap her head around the idea that my desire for her is now mirroring hers for me. Because we have a 20 year history of me being HD enough that her level of desire didn't really impact mine. But hey - some of that was predicated on my T levels being VERY high, and the rest was based on the fact that "usually" I could get her in the mood and she was willing to let me.

 

And yes - yes - I can directly tell her all this. And we have a history of open and honest communication. Still I think she is going to have a hard time believing that my reaction is based on hers. Plus I don't want her to feel bad about something she can't directly control.

 

We are going to the gym together today - she hasn't worked out in a while, I am hoping that maybe a regular workout regime will help. But what if it doesn't. How do you tell someone - after 21 years of being VERY sexual, that you really are ok with a very much reduced frequency?

 

Crazy as it sounds - right now - I think I would be fine with twice a month - or maybe less. The fact that she is clearly willing to connect makes a really big difference as I have zero "need" for her to show me she loves me by getting undressed. Because I know she gladly will if I ask - just to be nice.

 

Sorry for long strange ramble.

 

P.S. I am going to credit some of my recent enlightenment to xxoo - thank you x.

[mem11363]

Ronni,

I have never said "no" when my wife says "can we?" Because that is a request. But the difference between "can we?" and "we can" is vast. The former means "I actively want to" the latter "we can if YOU want to".

 

The last 2 weeks has been peppered with "we can" - this is truly an offer of kindness. Last night when I told her that my desire was mirroring hers - she didn't for a moment deny that at least very recently - her desire has left the building.

 

I tried to approach this differently on Saturday by asking her "at what frequency would you be disappointed?" I was of course asking for a number - typical male question - deep sigh. Her response "I would be disappointed if we had sex one time a week less than you want to."

 

I guess it sounds like we are speaking in circles with each other. Me - I'm truly just trying to be tactful. I guess soon enough I will need to say "it really is ok if your desire level is very low. Mine seems to be as well."

 

Now for the complicating factor - I have avoided saying that because she has gained a little weight in the last couple months - 10 pounds. And she is likely to connect the dots incorrectly - God this sucks. She looks GREAT - 110 pounds is beautiful and 120 pounds is also beautiful. No difference to me.

 

So I either say "my desire is also low" without saying why in which case she will be near certain it is because she is "fat". Or I tell the truth - that my desire level is low because her desire level is low - which sort of seems like I am blaming her when in fact I am simply describing how my body is reacting to her loss of desire.

 

I guess I could lie and say that I constantly lust for her but am employing my iron willpower to conceal my longings to avoid causing her guilt. Of course being a terrible liar she will likely just laugh - but if she did believe that it will cause her to feel guilty for being a "cold wife".

 

Suggestions welcome. I am not being sarcastic. I am trying to walk softly here. This situation while unprecedented is not causing me emotional distress. My main goal is to avoid causing her to feel bad as she has done nothing wrong. In fact - her willingness to do the opposite of what her body is telling her is the ultimate gift. Lucky me - I married a giver.

 

As for me - I am not into self pleasuring. So biology is slowly working its magic and my desire is steadily building. I would guess that ballpark twice a month in this situation will be sufficient for me to avoid "deprivation based tension." That is about a 4 fold decrease in our normal routine.

 

In the meantime - on any night if she reverses the sequence from "we can" to "can we?" rest assured I will enthusiastically say "YES!!!!"

 

mem, all love and respect to you...but.

But if that first bit I quoted is accurate, then the second bit is pure and utter bullcrap. [because] Hers is a "hormonal thing" while you are CONSCIOUSLY REJECTING her. Not only that, but you're basing your entire "case" on your own perceptions, guesses and assumptions. You only sensed a less-than-usual interest/motivation/whatever. That could as easily be your chemicals, hormones or whatevers doing a number on you. Possibly?

 

I do agree that she will not be able to grasp that your behaviour is simply mirroring hers...and she will have good reason for her lack of grasping, especially if she is intelligent and likes a little bit of logic with your blame .

 

A different way of looking at it is that what she is offering you is heartfelt, authentic, and shows her obvious commitment to you, awareness of your needs, and desire to uphold ALL the vows she made to you. [Edit to add: And "generous". I was going to type that she is also expressing and demonstrating amazing generosity of spirit. Of course, this entire paragraph is based on an assumption that your assumptions, about what she is actually feeling, are accurate. /end edit]

 

Your other reaction could have been one of immense appreciation, admiration and gratitude. In other words, to count and be thankful for your blessings.

 

Now...if you want to hear what I think of the reaction you have opted for, I will tell you (but it ain't gonna be pretty!)

 

Turn it around in your head, mem. What's going on in there right now is not up to your usual high standard.

Hugs and best.

[mem11363]

tnt,

I haven't changed. Neither physically nor behaviorally. If this had happened gradually then I would be in hard core self assessment mode.

 

She has never jerked me around with regard to rejection so the last thing I want to do is make her feel bad. She is offering to be nice - I am declining because I don't want to be selfish.

 

As for me I am far from perfect. But she and I are very well suited and mostly bring out the best in each other. And as for attractiveness - I think for the moment she would say I am "attractive" she is simply not feeling sexual "attraction" to me.

 

I am hoping exercise will help her hormone levels - should know in a week or two.

 

 

Do you think it has to do with the fact that you feel unattractive to your wife?

 

Sort of like a defense mechanism to protect your manliness?

 

IMO male self esteem is a problem no ones addresses, ala what we are brought up to be. Like your coach saying suck it up and be a man, boys don't cry, so on and so forth.

 

When I know my Ws not going to be into it, I don't initiate or I refuse her initiation. If she asks, I tell her I'm not in the mood. She will get mad and take it personally but that is the simple truth. I never blame her or give her a reason why, and why do I do that because it leaves her guessing and it makes her think. It also gets her in the habit of only initiating when she really wants it. I noticed how easy it was to get her in the habit of rejecting me, so I figured it works both ways and it really does work. Its a habit I can live with.

[xxoo]

Now for the complicating factor - I have avoided saying that because she has gained a little weight in the last couple months - 10 pounds. And she is likely to connect the dots incorrectly - God this sucks. She looks GREAT - 110 pounds is beautiful and 120 pounds is also beautiful. No difference to me.

 

So I either say "my desire is also low" without saying why in which case she will be near certain it is because she is "fat".

 

Tell her how gorgeous she is! Show appreciation for those new and improved curves You can do that without being in "pant" mode.

 

For me, the key phrase that struck home was "I'd rather wait until you are into it." It didn't mean that he wasn't attracted or desirous (clearly he was). It just meant that he wanted the really great sex we had when I was also desirous.

[mem11363]

Wow.

 

Honest, accurate, concise. This is how I will handle it going forward.

 

Thank you.....

 

Tell her how gorgeous she is! Show appreciation for those new and improved curves You can do that without being in "pant" mode.

 

For me, the key phrase that struck home was "I'd rather wait until you are into it." It didn't mean that he wasn't attracted or desirous (clearly he was). It just meant that he wanted the really great sex we had when I was also desirous.

[crazycatlady]

tnt,

I haven't changed. Neither physically nor behaviorally. If this had happened gradually then I would be in hard core self assessment mode.

 

She has never jerked me around with regard to rejection so the last thing I want to do is make her feel bad. She is offering to be nice - I am declining because I don't want to be selfish.

 

As for me I am far from perfect. But she and I are very well suited and mostly bring out the best in each other. And as for attractiveness - I think for the moment she would say I am "attractive" she is simply not feeling sexual "attraction" to me.

 

I am hoping exercise will help her hormone levels - should know in a week or two.

 

I can always tell when my H isn't into doing certain things at certain times. It can be hard sometimes matching up and oh man I wish we were as mature as you and your wife are mem. We try, but sometimes emotions win out over logic.

 

Sometimes the lust simply is not there. Whatever reason. At my age (10 or so years younger then your wife) its usually more I need emotional love rather then physical love. I'm not much of a toucher simply because touching often turns me on to much, but during those times, I'm craving the touch, needing the petting and the stroking. Like let me be a kitty curled up in your lap and just stroke me. And I want to have him curl up against me and let me stroke him. For us this happens like every 4 to 5 months.

 

But as you two are touchers, I don't know if that would be the case. I like it though that we have that time to stroke and it not be about sex. It balances out the rest of the time of humping like rabbits. Lets it be emotional and mental rather then physical. Which makes it a perfect time, like XXOO said (brilliant lady that I've always found her to be) to express your appreciation for her body which if she is a typical woman could actually be part of the problem. Women .... we like to feel sexy in order to feel sexual. And weight gains can be a problem. Thus the stroking and loving talking can do wonders.

 

Good luck, Mem. Too bad you can't teach classes .

 

CCL

[porkinsjehosaphat]

OP,

 

when your wife says she is receptive to you having sex with you, stop overanalyzing it, "just do it."

 

From your posts I'm picturing you as an over-intellectualizing college professor type, who believes that brainpower can overcome animalistic instinct.

 

You are thinking about all this WAY too much.

 

Having sex creates desire. If she asks you to have sex, or says you can have sex with her, don't worry about whether or not she "really" wants it.

 

Have sex.

 

You should have sex with your wife because it is self-inforcing and creates a positive feedback loop. By not having sex with your wife when the opportunity presents itself, you are creating a negative feedback loop.

 

Sex is an end in itself, at least for two married people. It's a healthy activity.

 

You don't always feel like brushing your teeth but you do it. You don't always feel like a lot of things that are good for you but you do them because they're good for you.

 

Having sex with your wife is good for you and for her. There is no magical rule somewhere that she has to subjectively feel a certain way about it, or you have to feel a certain way about how you think she feels, to provide sex with some positive benefit.

 

The next time your wife offers don't worry about whether or not she "really" wants it. Instead of pouring forth your understanding, pour forth your semen.

[porkinsjehosaphat]

Ronni,

I have never said "no" when my wife says "can we?" Because that is a request. But the difference between "can we?" and "we can" is vast. The former means "I actively want to" the latter "we can if YOU want to".

 

Jesus dude you sound like such a prima donna with the above comment.

 

Get off the ego trip, it can't be helping your marriage.

 

 

The last 2 weeks has been peppered with "we can" - this is truly an offer of kindness. Last night when I told her that my desire was mirroring hers - she didn't for a moment deny that at least very recently - her desire has left the building.

 

Most likely because it sounds like you're acting quite b*tchy about all this. She continually offers you sex for the past two weeks and you keep turning her down because it won't satisfy you unless she's begging for it, she "wants it" more than you do. You want to make her beg for it, you want to humiliate her.

 

Now you're not portraying it that way, to be sure; but that's clearly what's going on. You're on a power trip of some kind. This whole thing is not about sex at all. It's about ego and control.

 

Did it ever occur to you, even just once in your marriage, that maybe your wife doesn't want to be in a position of being a woman who has to more or less come crawling to her husband in order for him to have sex with her?

 

I tried to approach this differently on Saturday by asking her "at what frequency would you be disappointed?" I was of course asking for a number - typical male question - deep sigh. Her response "I would be disappointed if we had sex one time a week less than you want to."

 

What kind of a conversation is this? How is she supposed to be able to arbitrarily select a "number"? In response she again tells you she wants to have sex with you as much as you would like to have it. Dude, the whole tenor of your conversation with your wife was all wrong. It should have been about how much you would like to have sex with her, not asking her how little sex she wants to have with you. Why put her on the spot like that? Did it ever dawn on you it might be hard to build up the sexual attraction for a spouse who keeps putting his wife on the spot like that?

 

I guess it sounds like we are speaking in circles with each other.

 

No, you are speaking in circles, and she is trying to accommodate you as best she can, but you don't want to let her.

 

The way you build up your wife's sexual attraction towards you, if there is a way, is to f*ck her good, long and hard when the opportunity presents itself, including when she offers to you even though you don't think she's groveling to you sufficiently to suit your stupendously over-enlarged ego. You don't play verbal or mind games with her. Have sex with her or don't. If she offers, and you don't accept, then that's entirely on you, not on her based on your fabricated justifications for turning down opportunities to have sex with her.

 

 

Me - I'm truly just trying to be tactful. I guess soon enough I will need to say "it really is ok if your desire level is very low. Mine seems to be as well."

 

You come off as very articulate in your postings, verbal, wordy, but in person you probably come off more like a completely pompous jackass, the way you intellectualize this stuff. Not "tactful" at all. It is the opposite of "tactful" to repeatedly turn down your wife's offer to have sex with you based on the excuse that you don't think she "really" wants it.

 

If she's repeatedly asking you for sex, or suggesting you can have it if you want, that doesn't mean she has a low desire, it means she has a high desire--she keeps asking you for it. Your arbitrary imaginary rules about how she has to ask you for it, or how she is supposed to feel about it, or express her desire for it, are just that--arbitrary, and imaginary. When you turn down her sexual invitations that means it is you who don't want it, not her.

 

Now for the complicating factor - I have avoided saying that because she has gained a little weight in the last couple months - 10 pounds. And she is likely to connect the dots incorrectly - God this sucks. She looks GREAT - 110 pounds is beautiful and 120 pounds is also beautiful. No difference to me.

 

Ten pounds??? Ten pounds???? Are you freakin' kidding me??? You are so sly in saying she looks "great" (to make it appear as if you "don't care" about the ten pounds, i.e. to make it seem that you are not a weasly little b*tch), but yet you do care, or at least are using the "ten pounds" as an excuse not to have sex with your w.

 

How the heck do you even know that your wife gained ten pounds? Do you make her do weigh ins every weeks or something?

 

"No difference" to you other than the fact that you made a point of even mentioning it, therefore, it is a difference that is important to you, but you don't even want to be honest about that. Of course, it's an insane, bizarre thing for you to even mention, then pretend not to be concerned about, but contrary to your very articulate and reasonable sounding demeanor while posting, you strike me as probably an incredibly controlling person.

 

The fact that you don't want to have sex unless your wife grovels for it. The focus on ten pounds. The obsession with making your wife tell you how little sex she would have to have to make her unhappy, an unanswerable question--you ask her a twisted question that you know she won't be able to answer satisfactorily. You don't really want an answer, you want to play emotional games. This stuff all fits a pattern.

 

So I either say "my desire is also low" without saying why in which case she will be near certain it is because she is "fat". Or I tell the truth - that my desire level is low because her desire level is low - which sort of seems like I am blaming her when in fact I am simply describing how my body is reacting to her loss of desire.

 

How about simply stating that your desire is low without trying to blame it on your wife for any reason? It sounds like the reason your desire is low is that you are psychologically screwed up. Your desire is not low because hers is low--in fact it doesn't sound like hers is low. But even if it is, that's not what's making your desire low, you're falsely attributing your lack of desire to her as another form of blaming and control. It "seems" like you are blaming her because you ARE. And yet, as with pretending not to care about the ten pounds while being obsessed by it, you want to pretend that you're not blaming her.

 

This is a bunch of cr*p in my opinion.

 

 

 

I guess I could lie and say that I constantly lust for her but am employing my iron willpower to conceal my longings to avoid causing her guilt.

 

You just did say it, you put it out there, but you know what you said is so ridiculous you don't want to get fully behind it. So you say it and then pretend you didn't say it so that you can talk out of both sides of your mouth.

 

IOW you're a double-talking b.s. artist. Why you feel the need to do this on a message board is anyone's guess, you're probably just ego-tripping or something.

 

 

Of course being a terrible liar she will likely just laugh - but if she did believe that it will cause her to feel guilty for being a "cold wife".

 

Yes sir you love to go around in those circles, don't you?

 

I prefer the more straight forward approach: if my wife suggests we have sex, and I turn her down, I don't try to blame that on her--either to her, to myself, or to the internet. I don't throw out red herrings about her weight, her supposed level of desire, or anything else.

 

I look to myself for the answer.

 

 

 

Suggestions welcome. I am not being sarcastic.

 

My suggestion is that you man up and stop being so pompous and dishonest about your motivations and your marriage. You repeatedly try to cast yourself as being the "good guy" while directing all the blame for whatever is wrong in your relationship to your spouse.

 

Your expectation that your wife should have to grovel to you, to speak certain magic words to your approval, to signify that having sex with her sufficiently feeds your ego on a particular occasion, frankly borders on the insane. Only an extremely disturbed individual could have come up with your worldview. Your problem is that you are extremely intelligent but you are able to use that intelligence to further your delusional world view--as many extremely disturbed but intelligent people are able.

 

 

 

I am trying to walk softly here. This situation while unprecedented is not causing me emotional distress. My main goal is to avoid causing her to feel bad as she has done nothing wrong. In fact - her willingness to do the opposite of what her body is telling her is the ultimate gift. Lucky me - I married a giver.

 

This is a bunch of sanctimonious, pompous b.s. What's really going on is that despite your insufferable pomposity, and manipulative attitude towards sex, which no doubt makes it very difficult for your wife to actually generate interest in you, because she loves you, she nevertheless offers to have sex with you anyway, in the hopes/knowledge that the physical closeness and connection will generate a positive, self-sustaining, rejuvenating sexual spark.

 

Your response? You reject her, then blame your actions on her. If you really wanted to avoid causing her to feel bad then you would have sex with her when she invites you to. Are you such a dullard that you don't realize how hurtful such a rejection is to a woman? Regardless of what you believe her level of desire for you is, when you reject her invitations, you're basically telling her that YOU find HER undesirable.

 

Why? Umm...well she gained ten whole frikkin' pounds. Oh but that doesn't matter....well the only reason you mentioned it is to show what a good classy nice guy you are by demonstrating that you don't really care about it, no, it would be her "insecurity" over her ten pounds, not your obsession over it, that was causing the problem....

 

As for me - I am not into self pleasuring.

 

And this is critical because this is absolutely KEY. Masturbation is NATURAL. Any healthy adult male who is not getting regular sex will want to masturbate to get the sexual release. Plenty who are having sex masturbate in addition to that.

 

For you to say "I am not into self pleasuring" without seeming to understand that this statement is nothing to be proud of, indicates you are bragging about something that no emotionally well adjusted person would brag about. (Of course you would rejoin you are not bragging, just stating a seemingly irrelevant fact. But in your own mind, you ARE bragging. By saying that you don't self pleasure, you wish others to believe that somehow you are "better" than those who do self pleasure.)

 

If you are not into self-pleasuring--in plain english, you don't jerk it--then you are either a liar (the most likely scenario statistically speaking) or there is something seriously wrong with you. Emotionally, sexually, or whatever.

 

 

 

So biology is slowly working its magic and my desire is steadily building. I would guess that ballpark twice a month in this situation will be sufficient for me to avoid "deprivation based tension." That is about a 4 fold decrease in our normal routine.

 

A fourfold decrease and your ego requires you to go in circles to find a way to blame it on your wife.

 

It's not your wife's fault.

 

It's your fault. She's offered but you keep refusing.

 

I hope you realize that if your wife keeps asking you for sex, and you keep not only refusing, but blaming it on her, she might be tempted to look for relief outside the marriage? Just how much do you think you can humiliate this woman before she reaches the breaking point?

 

 

 

 

 

In the meantime - on any night if she reverses the sequence from "we can" to "can we?" rest assured I will enthusiastically say "YES!!!!"

 

Your excuse for refusing her is she says "we can" instead of "can we?" Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Actually it's completely insane. You're refusing to have sex with your wife because she's using poor word choice, based on your completely arbitrary perception of how she should be asking you for sex?

 

Dude, ideally, she should NEVER have to pursue you for sex.

 

I pity your wife, you actually think it is legit to withhold sex from her because the way she asks for it doesn't meet your arbitrary standard? Keep doing that and she will be asking some other guy(s) for sex if she isn't already doing that right now.