Have the action, not the person. I'm there, are you?

[turnstone]

When I first found out that I was a BS, then later when I found out the extent of my ex husband's cheating, and then later still when I found out my ex husband had given me an STD as a result of the cheating (affairs - they just keep on giving. You know how it goes), I felt nothing but disgust for the other women he had slept with. And I think you'll agree that that is probably a fairly normal reaction to such horrendous and life changing information! However, as time has gone on and the more I discover about the type of person my ex husband really is, the less I feel anything but compassion for the people who were used by him. I wouldn't have believed it possible, for a BS to want anything but hell and damnation for the woman who had invaded her marriage, but I see there are a few BS out there who have come to terms with the situation and so are able to separate an other woman's actions from her person. (Not that I am supposing for one second that other wives have husbands like mine or that all other women like the one's that my ex husband slept with)

 

I no longer see the women who had sex with my ex husband as anything but used by him, and probably others before. Its not my job to like them or help them or even forgive them, but it is worth my while to be fair and realistic about the situation because that enables me to come to terms with the cruellest thing I have personally experienced.

 

Undoubtedly there are women (just as there are men) who's personality is such that their actions are too damaging and too destructive, to benefit from any kind of understanding and that's where a line has to be drawn, but on the whole I believe more and more that the OW that effected my life so hugely were victims themselves.

 

Yes, I do believe that a common factor that other women have is low self-esteem than, for instance, myself. And I believe this because I can't understand how anyone with high self-worth would accept being anything but number one physically, emotionally, mentally, legally, socially, every which way, in a relationship.

 

So who else here as a BS has a similar experience and/or feelings?

[PortuguesePrincess80]

My DDay is pretty fresh...less than 2 months ago actually..but I can see your prescpective on this! I call the OW a bitch..and yes she is that entirely..knowing he was with me this whole time...but in a sense..she was totally fooled by my WS! He gave her the impression that our relationship had deteriorated and we were on the verge of a split. What I don't understand is how she allowed to be fooled for a year! Kind of sad to think of how low her self esteem is though..especially now knowing that he didn't in fact want her for anything else except for the occassional "hook up".

 

I guess I was a fool too...not catching on earlier to his A..although I always had my suspicions. He wouldn't ever admit to it...and I knew I would need concrete evidence..which took awhile but I eventually got it. I am glad she told me everything...and I give her much credit for that. I told her I didnt wish anything bad on her...but with her knowing I knew her address..that was a huge threat on her as well. I basically told her she either dealt with me on the phone..or in person.

 

I don't ever want to deal or see this OW...and as far as I'm concerned..Karma is a bitch. She will get hers eventually. Not by me though..I'll let karma do its own job. I'm sure shes hurt as well...but her hurt cannot come near my hurt! I've invested almost 14 years and have an 11 yr old son who looks up to his father. She has 2 kids and apparently came from an abusive relationship. She obviously has some esteem issues to be used by a man who would come over for a few hours every week or so and go back home to his wife.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is..I'm 50/50 with this. I cannot feel all that much sympathy for the OW..and yet I do in some small way. My WS owns this 100 percent in my eyes...and I don;t need any closure from the OW whatsoever to either split from my H or Reconcile with him! Something I'm having a hard time deciding at this point.

[Spark1111]

I agree, but I came to the conclusion somewhere down the road.

 

I only had empathy initially for a single mother who bought into my fWS brand of Bull****.

 

Over time, and credit card statements, I realized they used and manipulated each other, under the guise of love or lust, who knows. But there was a lot of necessary swank in the relationship; he provided it in exchange for being told how wonderful he was.

 

Today, I just feel indifference and sorry for both of them; he almost destroyed all he held dear; she almost successfully encouraged him to do so to further her own selfish needs.

 

Yes, I believe there are huge insecurities and self-esteem issues on both parts; and that after DDay, they both deserved each other.

 

My ego is healthy to say the least: I could never be number two to anyone and never have. I walk away, first. Give your crumbs to someone who feels that is all they deserve.

 

It's not me.

[Steadfast]

My perspective as a male is different, and although I used to think it was unique I now know it isn't. King Solomon's writings in Proverbs says sleeping with a married woman brings a curse upon the man (biblical credence for karma?) and in many of those writings he describes the woman as a trap; something to be avoided. Obviously, female pursuance is nothing new, but that didn't make it any easier for me to deal with. For whatever reason (guilt, shame, indifference?) my ex would not talk about her affair partner AT ALL. She did confess and give details to a few family members; one of which who thought I should know what I was up against. After the divorce, we had one meaningful (for me at least) talk and she confirmed what I was told before. I think she realized I deserved some kind of explanation for ending a 16 year marriage. "Lust" was her reasoning, btw. That still hurts.

 

Several men have come and gone since. Or, at least I think they're gone. My daughter (who knows more than she's letting on) claims my ex keeps a cashe' of men on the string. I could have been one of them, but after reading of Turnstone's STD issues, I'm glad I refused that role. It's a moot point anyway; my ex never approached me for sex after our split. She wanted lots of other things (including comfort, kissing, reassurance and a host of favors) and I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me some. Still, her rejection helped me become more humble and eventually heal more fully.

 

In the end, these men did know my ex had a husband and kids at home, but they didn't care. It is pretty clear that (most of them?) got what they wanted from her, and if she can be believed, our relationship was not discussed. Whatever, I do believe her answer when I asked if she thought me me when she was cheating. Her response was that she didn't; that she 'put me out of her mind'. Just like that. I suppose it is good to know where you stand, and I do...or did. Since then, she claims she thinks of me 'from the moment she wakes up until she falls asleep'. If that's true, then my wife threw away her marriage and family for nothing.

 

I don't know him...or any of the 'hims'. However, if I were to meet the first 'him' and I knew for sure it was him, I would not hesitate to smash him in the face with my fist. I would, and it's a pretty good assumption he knows it. Her 'men' avoid me still, and there's a reason. I never got mine...and I'm being honest when I say I feel a bit cheated.

 

I'll finish my thought by saying I realize my ex was the main proponent in her cheating. I left her, let her go and divorced her. That's all I could do. As for the men, that's unfinished business in my eyes. I'd like a crack at one.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Steadfast

[MizFit]

I'm probably the oddity as a BS...when my exH cheated on me I had no feelings for her one way or the other. Well...I did...I knew her personally and we had never liked each other, but as an OW she was inconsequential. I ended the marriage, in my mind and physically, within minutes of the confirmation of the A...it made no difference to me who it was or what their relationship was. She could have been a 6' 3" supermodel or a 5' 1" troll...she could have seduced him or been seduced...they could have lied or seen each other for years or just 1 time. None of it mattered. He cheated. It was done.

 

When I did leave I went to his family and I told them that they were not to treat her badly because of what HE did. He was the one who disrespected and caused the end of the marriage...not her.

 

So...with a bit different perspective...that's my story as a BS.

[skylarblue]

As the OW, I would never expect (or need or want) pity, forgiveness, or understanding from the BW. I’d imagine her to think all of the lowest and worst of me and she would have every right to and to some degree would probably be fairly accurate. At the very best, she’d probably consider me not even worth an ounce of energy of thought or focus. But I could understand why she would/could have some kind of empathy towards me. I share the same opinion as you that I do believe that a common factor that other women have is low self-esteem than, for instance, myself. And I believe this because I can't understand how anyone with high self-worth would accept being anything but number one physically, emotionally, mentally, legally, socially, every which way, in a relationship. Personally, a major flaw for me is that I need to be validated by the opposite sex (particularly by a MM) to demonstrate some kind of worthiness to myself and that’s putting it mildly. I could see how a BS (or person in general) could pity someone who’s put their self-worth on their appearance and the affirmation of it. It is a sad position. But I’m far from being a victim (or holding pity for myself) and I have trouble seeing most OW as the victim. I’d hardly expect the W to. And I think she’d find comfort not compassion in knowing that her H was just using me even if he was lying to or manipulating me.

[bananalaffytaffy]

I agree with Skylar that the OW deserves no pity, and is not a victim if she willingly enters a R with a MM.

But her post saddens me, and I kind of pity her. How ironic is that?

What saddens me, Skylar, is your need for validation by MM. I'm glad you recognize it, but recognition without action achieves nothing. So I guess I can't feel TOO sorry for you.

I hope you find a way to get past this. Needing validation by anyone but yourself (and your Higher Power) is recipe for disaster. It takes away your inherent power, and tosses it away to someone else. Someone else who may not have your best interests at heart.

[datura_noir]

The tone of your post simply reinforces the "women as victims of bad men" viewpoint; It infers that women are helpless, fragile emotional beings who get used and mistreated by men. I'm sure that is not the case in nearly all affairs.

 

BTW, hello LS!

[bananalaffytaffy]

The tone of your post simply reinforces the "women as victims of bad men" viewpoint; It infers that women are helpless, fragile emotional beings who get used and mistreated by men. I'm sure that is not the case in nearly all affairs.

 

BTW, hello LS!

I agree, datura. But in reading your post and Skylar's, I can't help but wonder if there's not a certain type of woman that is vunerable to men like this. Of course, they are responsible for what they do, and are far from victims, but it's sad to me that a woman would have so little self esteem that she would think a MM was a good idea.

 

But I'm sure we'll have some predator OW's who'll come in and refute all that -you know, the "I'm so great, all I have time or patience for is MM" type...

[datura_noir]

I've always beleived in "once a victim, next time a volunteer". Never have laid out a pity party for my choices in life. The men I have had as partners were probably lacking "self-esteem" in some way or another.

 

The overall tone of most of the BS (women) and OW posts here are that of a hapless, helpless, I-was-once-in-an-abusive-relationship-therefore-my-soul-is-weak-and-vulnerable mode that, it seems most are stuck there. If the WS is so bad and cowardly and evil, what does that make the BS?? Or the OP?? A loser with a broken picker? A Patsy? A fool?

 

It's easy to skew one person as the villain; in fact, common in popular literature. There always has to be a "bad guy". Hey, if it makes ya feel better, go for it. But at the end of the day, you still have to deal with yourself, bad guy or not.

[seren]

I think it would be difficult, if not impossible for OW/OM to contemplate that they would/should be thought of as being pitied by BS, at least while the A was still going on. There does seem to be a common understanding by most that the A is the primary relationship, that the MP is in the A because it is the one relationship where they (MP) feels alive etc etc. To believe this, suggests that the MP is saying and doing something to make them believe this is so.

 

Once a D Day has happened and the MP does all he/she can to keep their marriage going, even if the marriage ends, the true nature of the A becomes apparent. I am not suggesting that while it was ongoing that the A met both their needs, whether that was for sex, validation, an escape from the marriage, or even an escape from themselves and sometimes, because the marriage is over and they have found someone else to love.

 

I don't think OW/OM are victims, in fact, as they know the person is married, the victim card seems pretty far fetched. I think in my experience, the OW knew H was married, bought into what he said, did without questioning why he didn't leave, was content to lie to her H and only looked for sympathy after D Day and she was unceremoniously dumped.

I can feel empathy for her, but certainly don't view her as a victim, although H said she could have been anyone and that I suppose does elicit some sympathy.

The OP I feel are victims are those who buy into the I will leave when (whatever) and wait for years buying into the life is crap at home stuff, when it clearly cannot be all that bad for the MP to stay and avoid a D day at all costs. It is such a cliche.

[bananalaffytaffy]

"Once a victim, next time a volunteer" rings true IME. The reason I came to LS is that I have a friend who I now would refer to her as a serial OW. It's been going on for 20 years. Originally, I came here to seek help for her, but frankly, now I just want her off my back. I know it's terrible to say, but after putting up with it for 20 years...

Her self esteem has always been in the toilet. Her mom is white trash who ran off with another man when she was small, leaving her with her grandma. She's always made bad choices. A couple years after I met her, she purposely went after a MM, just to see if she could get him away from his W. After another couple years, she got tired of it and sent dirty photos to the BS. BS kicked him out, but it was another couple years before MM finally married her. By then, she really didn't want him, but thought she couldn't do better. They cheated on each other throughout the M, and she became an alcoholic. He divorced her. She started going to AA and getting her life back together. He got wind she was seeing other men, and asked her to remarry. Since he promised her she wouldn't have to get a job, and she's lazy, she went back to him. Now she's cheating on him by being OW to two other men, and is drinking again.

Instead of working on herself, she thinks she can take a pill. So she's taken every antidepressant on the planet, and is no better off than when she was 16. She's in her 40's now. All of her friends have abandoned her but me, and it gets harder and harder for me everyday, since she won't help herself.

 

So, to go back to the OP, does this OW deserve sympathy from the BS?

I don't really think so.

Edited June 12, 2010 by bananalaffytaffy

[datura_noir]

That's a pretty torrid story, banana; she's lucky to have had you as a friend.

 

My sister was an OW for TEN friggen years; I never knew until she called me one day and told me to sit down while she explained the story of the end of her marriage....needless to say, I was shocked.

 

My sister is the last person you would think had low self-esteem. She is an independent and fun, vibrant woman. Always has been. But issues within her definitely contributed to her seeking out the MM.

[datura_noir]

Oh, and NO-the OW is not getting my empathy for the situation-maybe as a person in general, but as the OW..not. She was old enough to know better at that point(she was older than me), so she should have figured out that crap long ago. This was her third role as the other....

[NoIDidn't]

I don't know what to call the feelings I have towards the OW in my personal situation. She was young and inexperienced. She was with the only guy she'd ever been with since HS and they had a child. She wanted her BF to marry her one day, but fell for my H. There was trouble in both of our paradises (is that a word? lol).

 

What she's had to deal with since I exposed the EA to her BF years ago is nothing I'd have wished on her. She wanted to stay with her BF, but he left her, had a revenge fling and got the woman pregnant.

 

On the one hand, I do feel sorry for her after what her BF did, but my exposure didn't cause her problems - her actions did. She also did her own version of an exposure, by telling all of their co-workers and members of my church that she knew from HS. I guess she figured she was embarrassing him and me, but turns out, she just made a fool of herself.

 

I don't think the BS owes the OP any kind of sympathy after what they help do to them emotionally. I certainly feel no kinship or responsibility to the OW in my situation.

[turnstone]

Yes, I believe there are huge insecurities and self-esteem issues on both parts; and that after DDay, they both deserved each other.

And I think I need to read that again and again. My ex husband had (has?) those same self-esteem issues. Despite being hugely successful in a capitalist societies terms, making money obviously wasn't enough for his ego.

<snip>

Steadfast, I see a lot of similarities between the motivation for your wife to have an affair and the motivation of my ex husband. It just seems to boil down to insecurities and the need for reassurance again and again.

 

As the OW, I would never expect (or need or want) pity, forgiveness, or understanding from the BW. I’d imagine her to think all of the lowest and worst of me and she would have every right to and to some degree would probably be fairly accurate. At the very best, she’d probably consider me not even worth an ounce of energy of thought or focus. But I could understand why she would/could have some kind of empathy towards me. I share the same opinion as you that I do believe that a common factor that other women have is low self-esteem than, for instance, myself. And I believe this because I can't understand how anyone with high self-worth would accept being anything but number one physically, emotionally, mentally, legally, socially, every which way, in a relationship. Personally, a major flaw for me is that I need to be validated by the opposite sex (particularly by a MM) to demonstrate some kind of worthiness to myself and that’s putting it mildly. I could see how a BS (or person in general) could pity someone who’s put their self-worth on their appearance and the affirmation of it. It is a sad position. But I’m far from being a victim (or holding pity for myself) and I have trouble seeing most OW as the victim. I’d hardly expect the W to. And I think she’d find comfort not compassion in knowing that her H was just using me even if he was lying to or manipulating me.

What a very interesting post Skylarblue. Is your lack of 'victimhood' because you know that you are making a conscious choice to do what you do? I'm not sure many of my ex husband's other women had that level of intelligence or self-awareness. Again, another reason he chose them, I suspect.

 

The tone of your post simply reinforces the "women as victims of bad men" viewpoint; It infers that women are helpless, fragile emotional beings who get used and mistreated by men. I'm sure that is not the case in nearly all affairs.

 

BTW, hello LS!

 

datura-noir - I understand what you're saying. However, I was speaking from my experience, where my ex husband is an expert in picking women who would be easy to control and manipulate - because that's what was lacking in our marriage - so these women were victims to a large extent. However, you're right, I don't need to absolve them of their own choices.

 

The OP I feel are victims are those who buy into the I will leave when (whatever) and wait for years buying into the life is crap at home stuff, when it clearly cannot be all that bad for the MP to stay and avoid a D day at all costs. It is such a cliche.

Yes, and that's what many of the women involved in my marriage had done. I think my ex husband had promised them - by inference - the world, and partly because of his money, his status, that was a lot to give up when you consider the little these women had.

 

 

Ok, so I can see by the responses here that maybe there's a balance I need to strike when considering the OW. Maybe not compassion or understanding, but I can't go as far to consider them 'bottom feeders' either.

 

Many thanks for the continued insights and understandings.

[MizFit]

I'm finding this a very interesting conversation...great topic Turnstone.

 

As an OW now I realize I'm very different to many of the other OW who post here...my MM is different and I'm different. I had feelings as a BS that are miles from what other BS feel/felt. So...on that I'm going to give my take as an OW, and I can only speak from my POV.

 

I don't expect his W to have any opinion of me at all, but she does. I don't expect her to have any empathy or sympathy or hate or anything. Her husband is cheating and that is all that matters. The OW doesn't change or alter that fact. If she does have an opinion it really doesn't make any difference to me...she will see what she wishes to see. She has actually told me what she sees and quite frankly it's nowhere near what I am, but it's what she sees and what she wants to see. I have no problem with that because we all see things and people and situations with emotions and experiences playing part in that vision...I just don't understand why she has any feelings about me at all.

 

I have a very difficult time listening to BS speak on this subject, not because I disagree or it hurts me, but because I don't understand it. I have never felt the need to understand what part the OW played in my exH's infidelity so I don't expect others to either.

[skylarblue]

Ok, so I can see by the responses here that maybe there's a balance I need to strike when considering the OW. Maybe not compassion or understanding, but I can't go as far to consider them 'bottom feeders' either.

 

Turnstone, there is nothing wrong with showing understanding or compassion for someone who has wronged you. I think it takes a lot of character and says a lot about a person. My mother is that type of person. She may hate a person’s ways, but she will never say she hates someone, and will never wish them ill despite how they treated her. She would simply pray for God to come into their life and make them a better person. I am the complete opposite. I wish I could be more forgiving in not harboring resentment or feeling the need to retaliate. I think a person is more at peace that way.

 

I was just expressing that I wouldn’t expect it or feel I deserved it. And she should in no way feel obligated to understand or have compassion for me just because I’m f*cked up in some way. I just hope whatever you do is because it’s what best for you and your peace of mind or what’s in your heart, and not because you feel you're obligated to.

 

Again, I am not the “victim”. Regardless of any reasons why I entered or continue to see MM I (as you stated) I made a conscious decision to do so. Even if I was a “victim” in the beginning in not knowing he was married (not my case) continuing an A after knowing strips away the “victim” status IMO. No one is forced to be the OW. She is doing it to herself. I am doing it to myself. That’s the real pity.