Boundary test?

[Spark1111]

Okay, I have someone visit my office every day. It is part of his job to do so. We've become professionally friendly and his family is the same composition as mine, but younger, so lots in common.

 

I like dance class since DDAY: salsa, rumba, zumba, country line. No secret there.

 

A couple of days ago, he goes into a lengthy discussion of how is wife likes to go out with her girlfriends to hear a certain band. He likes to salsa.

So he is fine with her going out with the girlfriends and he goes to his dance class. They have that sort of relationship, they trust each other.

 

I say, good, you should trust each other.

 

Next day he hands me the flyer and the class is very cheap. I should check it out.

 

Next day, he tells me I missed it; draws diagrams on how to get there (I know where it is) speaks of the three levels, beginner, intermediate and advanced, and says intermediate was too hard for him.

 

Then he tells me I should go. Innocent fun. Good work out. We could be partners.....

 

and suddenly, a little antennae goes up in my gut, and now I am looking at him differently. He is trying too hard to get me to go, and I am now a little uncomfortable.

 

So I will never go, because something is telling me something, and I intend to listen to it. That's keeping a boundary. Not that I have any interest, but I believe he does beyond our professional relationship....

 

How easy it would be to start to step down a slippery slope if I were vulnerable, unintuitive, flattered by his attention, or simply interested in a fun dance class....

 

I have very strong intuition; very strong boundaries. But it is easier to empathize with those who do not.

 

Holy smokes. After surviving an affair, I feel I have this clarity of vision now to recognize those getting ready to embark on one..

 

Do other's feel this change after DDAY? I KNOW or SENSE when someone is getting ready to fall down the slippery slope. Before DDay, I lived in a bubble thinking everyone was as happily married as I. Now, I spot things from a mile away.

 

Thoughts?

[califnan]

Don't you just love it .. And yes, one could say he would like to have a partner - and thought of you ... But this is how things can start..

 

Let's hear it for those marital relationships where both do their own thing - and make themselves feel more interesting to the other as well.. (I guess) ..

[carhill]

He's smooth. I'm sure he printed plenty of flyers.

[sruben]

I'm actually surprised that, now having studied this topic in-depth for a year (well, with a 5-month break), I can see A's going on in other people's lives before they can.

 

Friend of mine says his W is hooked on pain meds, is blacking out. Isn't wearing her wedding ring (neither was he!), she moved out to her parents house. I saw her updated 'do and makeup on her picture at work. I stumbled upon her FB profile, see when she posted the pics there for her updated look. I ask him, "Dude, I don't want to plant evil thoughts, but do you think she might be having an A?" "Oh, no, her self-esteem is WAY too low, plus she'd never do that!" Two or three weeks later he calls, "Dude, you nailed it! my inlaws tell me she moved out and into her lover's place. Some guy she met in the substance abuse recovery group." Bummer.

 

Small group leaders' wife asks for prayer for her brother, his wife has left. Gave some other details. They don't know if she's having an A. I ask two questions, the answers are red flags. Haven't heard back on that one.

 

Last October, my W got me to "let go of" my suspicions and paranoia in order to make our M better. When she triggered me on trying to set up separate finances, I began to ask myself, "Why did I ever allow myself to believe that my W might have had an A?" I review all my notes from my journal at the time, removed all the subjective thoughts and speculations, added some more facts that have come my way since then. Picture says...at least EA (most likely plus HJ, making it PA, although she'd not consider it adultery or sex). Denial was hard to maintain, can't compete with Truth. Bummer.

[Spark1111]

Don't you just love it .. And yes, one could say he would like to have a partner - and thought of you ... But this is how things can start..

 

Let's hear it for those marital relationships where both do their own thing - and make themselves feel more interesting to the other as well.. (I guess) ..

 

 

Califnan, I applaud those relationships....I just FEEL this is different.

[ladydesigner]

Okay, I have someone visit my office every day. It is part of his job to do so. We've become professionally friendly and his family is the same composition as mine, but younger, so lots in common.

 

I like dance class since DDAY: salsa, rumba, zumba, country line. No secret there.

 

A couple of days ago, he goes into a lengthy discussion of how is wife likes to go out with her girlfriends to hear a certain band. He likes to salsa.

So he is fine with her going out with the girlfriends and he goes to his dance class. They have that sort of relationship, they trust each other.

 

I say, good, you should trust each other.

 

Next day he hands me the flyer and the class is very cheap. I should check it out.

 

Next day, he tells me I missed it; draws diagrams on how to get there (I know where it is) speaks of the three levels, beginner, intermediate and advanced, and says intermediate was too hard for him.

 

Then he tells me I should go. Innocent fun. Good work out. We could be partners.....

 

and suddenly, a little antennae goes up in my gut, and now I am looking at him differently. He is trying too hard to get me to go, and I am now a little uncomfortable.

 

So I will never go, because something is telling me something, and I intend to listen to it. That's keeping a boundary. Not that I have any interest, but I believe he does beyond our professional relationship....

 

How easy it would be to start to step down a slippery slope if I were vulnerable, unintuitive, flattered by his attention, or simply interested in a fun dance class....

 

I have very strong intuition; very strong boundaries. But it is easier to empathize with those who do not.

 

Holy smokes. After surviving an affair, I feel I have this clarity of vision now to recognize those getting ready to embark on one..

 

Do other's feel this change after DDAY? I KNOW or SENSE when someone is getting ready to fall down the slippery slope. Before DDay, I lived in a bubble thinking everyone was as happily married as I. Now, I spot things from a mile away.

 

Thoughts?

 

Wow definitely a test. Wish I had stumbled upon LS before my test. Bounds of knowledge I have now. I never knew the dynamics of an A. Now I feel like I live and breathe it.

 

When I saw this thread I thought wow Spark has been presented with the opportunity to do the right or wrong thing. I applaud you wish I had done the same. I had no idea I was in an EA and my H A sent me straight into a RA (my bad choice of course I own it). Good for you Spark.

 

I know now that I would see it a mile away as well.

[NoIDidn't]

Spark, I see your point but there is also the risk of being hyper-sensitive when it may just be that he's looking for a good partner that he can trust not to disrespect his M.

 

I agree with Califnan, this is how things can start, but being on alert all the time is a form of cyncism, IMO.

[PortuguesePrincess80]

Definately a test! Regardless of how trustworthy he is with his wife.. that may very well be the downfall. We all know how sexy salsa and latin dancing can be in all aspects...he could have his hands all over you in those classes period..and that can definately lead to other things.

 

I am glad you can see how this can all play out at the end of the day Sparks! Kudos to you for being strong! I have had quite a few experiences like this as well..and have always denied any attempts at being in that vulnerable position. Sometimes (since D-Day occured almost 2 months ago now) I wonder why I didn't just didnt take any of those opportunities. Maybe respect and love for my spouse and son overtook me. Sometimes I think what an idiot I was for not taking them up on their advances though (since DDay) but I suppose I thought all was well with my R at that point.

[turnstone]

Yep, I'm definitely hypersensitive to the slightest perception of impropriety. Its a problem, at work I'm often in situations where I'm thrown together with men in quite an intimate way. I'm overly snippy and protective of my space, both physical and mental now and its actually causing slight problems where my colleagues are concerned. Its a balancing act and I don't trust anyone, even myself, to get it right.

[2sure]

Wait wait. Now 2 things:

 

1. I am notoriously naive in that I really dont notice if guys are hitting on me or just being friendly...to me, its beside the point unless I am reciprocating.

 

2. First see above, but consider this: Ive taken dance classes, while married. There were other solo married people there...but most were either there with their spouse or had an established dance partner. Its possible thats all he is looking for. When I was going...I tried desperately to get any male to go with me...preferably a married friend, so it was no threat to my H & no one would get the wrong idea. I finally did...but like I said it was hard, I was scrambling. So...he may just think you'd be a perfect dance partner & I'm telling you - they are hard to come by!

[Spark1111]

He's smooth. I'm sure he printed plenty of flyers.

 

hahahaha! Somehow, I don't think so.....

 

I am a kind person and a natural listener. I grow amazed at how many men.....find that a cause for attraction to me.

 

I am also pretty naive, like a labrador retriever, so it takes me quite a while to ....catch on.

[Spark1111]

Spark, I see your point but there is also the risk of being hyper-sensitive when it may just be that he's looking for a good partner that he can trust not to disrespect his M.

 

I agree with Califnan, this is how things can start, but being on alert all the time is a form of cyncism, IMO.

 

Very true! But I am certainly cynical now to male-female relationships exclusive of the spouse's knowledge. Aren't you?

[Spark1111]

Definately a test! Regardless of how trustworthy he is with his wife.. that may very well be the downfall. We all know how sexy salsa and latin dancing can be in all aspects...he could have his hands all over you in those classes period..and that can definately lead to other things.

 

I am glad you can see how this can all play out at the end of the day Sparks! Kudos to you for being strong! I have had quite a few experiences like this as well..and have always denied any attempts at being in that vulnerable position. Sometimes (since D-Day occured almost 2 months ago now) I wonder why I didn't just didnt take any of those opportunities. Maybe respect and love for my spouse and son overtook me. Sometimes I think what an idiot I was for not taking them up on their advances though (since DDay) but I suppose I thought all was well with my R at that point.

 

After DDay, I had thrown him out and thought we were headed for divorce.

 

I was a puddle of vulnerability and I think men smell that from a mile away. Can't explain it, other than to say all of a sudden I had these empathetic protectors, and if I had been so inclined, I could have milked it into an inappropriate relationship.

 

Was is it about the damsel in distress, especially if her pain has been caused by a big, bad wolf of a man, that other men cannot resist?

 

Carhill? Thoughts?

[Spark1111]

Yep, I'm definitely hypersensitive to the slightest perception of impropriety. Its a problem, at work I'm often in situations where I'm thrown together with men in quite an intimate way. I'm overly snippy and protective of my space, both physical and mental now and its actually causing slight problems where my colleagues are concerned. Its a balancing act and I don't trust anyone, even myself, to get it right.

 

Self-protective mode....

 

I get it. So professional as to be almost cold and unfriendly. I've been there too.

[Spark1111]

Wait wait. Now 2 things:

 

1. I am notoriously naive in that I really dont notice if guys are hitting on me or just being friendly...to me, its beside the point unless I am reciprocating.

 

This has always been me too. I guess since fWS' affair, I have tried to develop better radar.

 

2. First see above, but consider this: Ive taken dance classes, while married. There were other solo married people there...but most were either there with their spouse or had an established dance partner. Its possible thats all he is looking for. When I was going...I tried desperately to get any male to go with me...preferably a married friend, so it was no threat to my H & no one would get the wrong idea. I finally did...but like I said it was hard, I was scrambling. So...he may just think you'd be a perfect dance partner & I'm telling you - they are hard to come by!

 

This too is an excellent point, but with two exceptions: He has never taken a dance class or gym class or whatever, but he knows I do for quite awhile now.

 

and b) Sense his wife would not be informed he keeps inviting me.

[Spark1111]

I'm actually surprised that, now having studied this topic in-depth for a year (well, with a 5-month break), I can see A's going on in other people's lives before they can.

 

 

This is how I feel, now. And while I have no proof, my gut is finely-honed now and I trust it.

 

Friends of our's: He's working late everynight alone at the shop restoring a classic car. She can never reach him because he has the music blasting and the repair machines buzzing. No one answers any phone.

 

His libido has also dropped off and she is pissed.

 

Two and a half months go by. He tells her he bought anti-balding meds via the internet and it apparently affected his libido. The car needs more parts and he is home nights again.

 

She says I love you and so what if you go bald. I was ready to get a boyfriend.

 

Everyone at the table laughs. Except me. I smell a rat, having lived through this scenario.

[carhill]

Was is it about the damsel in distress, especially if her pain has been caused by a big, bad wolf of a man, that other men cannot resist?

 

Carhill? Thoughts?

 

Yes, as reported elsewhere, I dealt with this with my bmf's daughter. Similar situation to your Dday thing. A lot more than invitation to salsa class went on (not by me). Boundaries, made more difficult by the long-lasting and very personal nature of the relationship. Normal ground for me.

 

I definitely think there are two energies at work. One is the signals the woman puts out and the other is the psychology of how the male responds to those signals. I saw this with bmf's DD. Like you said, puddle of vulnerability. A great example of my theory of how men who do have boundaries must deal with those who don't, who swoop in on any opportunity. It's interesting to watch and feel the tug of war between the natural spirit to win and dominate and the healthy boundary of what is right and what is unhealthy.

 

Great test. Hope the dance class went well, for him

[silktricks]

Spark' date=' I see your point but [b']there is also the risk of being hyper-sensitive[/b] when it may just be that he's looking for a good partner that he can trust not to disrespect his M.

 

I agree with Califnan, this is how things can start, but being on alert all the time is a form of cyncism, IMO.

 

I agree that there is a risk of being hyper-sensitive, but one doesn't really need to be "on the alert" all the time either. If one has definite boundaries, then you don't need to be on guard - nor do you need to assume that an invitation is anything other than innocent. (In other words, you don't have to assume something negative about someone else.) You just need to honor your boundaries.

[carhill]

OP, to add and answer your question more completely, from my own experience I see more than one path. I see and feel the typical male path of any sexual opportunity being a valid one. That's the 'if you miss this one you'll never get it back' impetus theory. The other, initially non-sexual, applicable theory is that of the carer taking 'care' of someone they like or are attracted to. This path is more often seen with OW's and MM's, with the OW feeling the desire to 'care' for the MM, forming an emotional connection from which sexual attraction and tension grows.

 

The first path is easy to sign. When the loins stir, the boundary is nigh. Seeing the sign is easy. Paying attention to the sign is hard.

 

The second path is more difficult, as there is more emotional investment. Perhaps women manage this better than men, IDK. As an outlier man, I know it's been tough to property manage the boundary on this path. Remain loving and supportive but maintain an intimacy (emotional and sexual) boundary.

 

The interesting dynamic is, if the 'puddle of vulnerability' works in both directions, if anything, being vulnerable during my divorce has caused women to come out of the woodwork not to 'care', but rather to dump their 'stuff' on me. Rather than being hurt by this, I choose to see the dynamic as the Hoover theory, where they see an opportunity to use someone in a vulnerable state and will do so to the extent they can get away with. Human nature I guess. The same as a man using a vulnerable woman for sex. That's really good information and helps me eliminate such people from my life, or, at best, distance them greatly.

[MizFit]

I think it's like anything else...if you're house is broken into you watch the way you secure the property and then how you enter it. If you've been mugged or attacked you are cautious and wary. If you've been burned by a co-worker you hold yourself at bay.

 

I think any experience where there's a deep feeling (fear, love, joy, hurt) is an 'awakening' of sorts. I think when we're reeling after an experience we tend to be sharpened to it and it may not leave us ever, but I've found it at least dulls.

 

I do agree with you Spark...after my exH was ousted and the A came to light at work I seemed to be the flavor of the month. I honestly don't think they all had an A in mind...I think they were just watching out for me, but looking back it probably wouldn't have been too tough to have developed some of them.

[Spark1111]

OP, to add and answer your question more completely, from my own experience I see more than one path. I see and feel the typical male path of any sexual opportunity being a valid one. That's the 'if you miss this one you'll never get it back' impetus theory. The other, initially non-sexual, applicable theory is that of the carer taking 'care' of someone they like or are attracted to. This path is more often seen with OW's and MM's, with the OW feeling the desire to 'care' for the MM, forming an emotional connection from which sexual attraction and tension grows.

 

The first path is easy to sign. When the loins stir, the boundary is nigh. Seeing the sign is easy. Paying attention to the sign is hard.

 

The second path is more difficult, as there is more emotional investment. Perhaps women manage this better than men, IDK. As an outlier man, I know it's been tough to property manage the boundary on this path. Remain loving and supportive but maintain an intimacy (emotional and sexual) boundary.

 

The interesting dynamic is, if the 'puddle of vulnerability' works in both directions, if anything, being vulnerable during my divorce has caused women to come out of the woodwork not to 'care', but rather to dump their 'stuff' on me. Rather than being hurt by this, I choose to see the dynamic as the Hoover theory, where they see an opportunity to use someone in a vulnerable state and will do so to the extent they can get away with. Human nature I guess. The same as a man using a vulnerable woman for sex. That's really good information and helps me eliminate such people from my life, or, at best, distance them greatly.

 

That's an interesting perspective. I was feeling vulnerable, but certainly had no intention of being with anyone else. That was the farthest thought on my mind.

 

But it did attract a lot of male protectiveness; that I felt acutely.

 

Now imagine if that was my usual state or if I was the least bit...manipulative with it.....as maybe, some are? Or can be?

 

And yes, the inverse is true for women: we feel motherly or protective to a really nice guy with a broken heart....sure can see how that relationship can blur friend boundaries.

[Spark1111]

Well, call me naive, but I'd give the guy the benefit of the doubt until he did something inappropriate. I guess if I didn't trust myself to not be able to spot inappropriate behavior and do something about it, that's another thing. I have an attractive female friend that loves to dance. Her H has two left feet and hates it, won't go with her. She has a terrible time finding dance partners. And because she's there by herself, she usually ends up with the chaff, so to speak. If she found an attractive, happily married astute dance partner, I think she'd be thrilled. And I'm also sure she would not act inappropriately, and would expect the same of her new dance partner.

 

Yes, I guess so. In a perfect and altruistic world. However, sharing a fun passion with a friend, married or not, can be a recipe for disaster, IMHO.

 

LS is filled with affair starts that began innocently enough....and well, here we all are.

[Spark1111]

I think it's like anything else...if you're house is broken into you watch the way you secure the property and then how you enter it. If you've been mugged or attacked you are cautious and wary. If you've been burned by a co-worker you hold yourself at bay.

 

I think any experience where there's a deep feeling (fear, love, joy, hurt) is an 'awakening' of sorts. I think when we're reeling after an experience we tend to be sharpened to it and it may not leave us ever, but I've found it at least dulls.

 

I do agree with you Spark...after my exH was ousted and the A came to light at work I seemed to be the flavor of the month. I honestly don't think they all had an A in mind...I think they were just watching out for me, but looking back it probably wouldn't have been too tough to have developed some of them.

 

This was exactly my feelings following DDay....it seemed it could have been available to me, had I been so inclined.

[Snowflower]

Yes, I guess so. In a perfect and altruistic world. However, sharing a fun passion with a friend, married or not, can be a recipe for disaster, IMHO.

 

LS is filled with affair starts that began innocently enough....and well, here we all are.

 

Spark, you are right...affairs start innocently enough. Both partners are usually not even aware something is happening until it is too late.

 

I've thought about this type of scenario if I ever am confronted with it myself. What would I do? Ignore it? Become 'cold' toward the guy (likely for me) even if I had thought he was a nice guy before? Warn him somehow that he might be treading down a bad path? And if not with me, because my boundaries are up and my awareness is heightened, but with someone else eventually? I'm not talking about a serial cheater...

 

Spark, have you thought of "warning" the guy? Asking him point-blank why he wants you so badly to attend the classes? Asking him what his wife thinks about his trying so hard to get you to go?

 

Like others have said, it could all be innocent and nothing would happen but those of us who have been on the wrong side of the affair often think differently.

 

My H's A with a co-worker friend started out innocently, too. He really did think of her as a friend until they both crossed that line.