The evolution of 'Togetherness' the blueprint to breaking up?

[supersub]

Here I am in my early 30s, and I have more questions now than I did when I first started dating seriously

 

You gotta be nice, but not too nice. You have to be bad but not too bad. The list goes on and on. All of these dickhead traits that are pre-programmed it seems into everyone's DNA. It starts at the very beginning, with the 3 day rule before you call him/her for that first date. From the very beginning we have opted to play games with each other in relationship. You have to ask what kind of precedence does that set for us?

 

Are we not individuals? Why should we all follow the same rules? We all have this quest to be different and fresh in life don't we? but in this one particular area we are all shackled by the same rules,and boy do we play by them.

 

I wonder if during Neanderthal times. Caveman 1 is thinking "Oh I better not knock on the cave wall of Cavewoman 5 cos she'll lose interest in me?":laugh:

 

Any takers?

 

My Father was always telling me that you should treat people how you expect to be treated. He lived his life that way, and has rarely had issues in his personal life, or with his career etc.

 

I have tried to live my life that way, and I don't see it quite the same as he did. I guess its very utopian in nature. Which perhaps proves that relationships are evolving to a point we are not relating anymore.

 

Today you have to be around the person you love, but not too much. Heck you probably talk to this person in the virtual world more than in the real thanks to cell phones, the internet. etc.

 

Everything has to be 100% perfect. 100% of the time. If you do 99.5, they will remember the .5 you did wrong.

 

Inevitably, over the course of the relationship the power changes hands until one gains the upper hand. One or Both parties as a result will either stay or go.

 

No wonder many modern relationships fail, cos they are not relationships. They are just two people either aggressively or passive aggressively fighting for what they want, when they want it. It also seems then when there are these problems, people don't want to solve them, they just want to look over their shoulder and say "Oh.. He/she looks like a better option, I'm off!" And thus the cycle begins again with a different person.

 

Any way just some thoughts I had this morning..

[Ilovecake]

I’m in my late 30s and I can tell you all that stuff is BS. If you put that many rules and restrictions on a relationship it’s bound to fail. I mean why we don’t do this with our friendships or our families. Those people we accept for who they are, but throw a person in the sack with another and all of a sudden it’s a never ending string of games. How about all you have to be is yourself and if the other person doesn't like who you are they can find someone else.

[hardtocope]

I don't get this upper hand thing, or the 'power' in the relationship. I admit it exists in most relationships; but in a loving, committed partnership neither party should care about or want to have a 'upper hand' or power over the other one - they should care about each other equally, and if they do, then all of those relationship dynamics shouldn't really matter in the end.

 

But the fact remains that those dynamics are there - even where bother parties feel they love each other, one party feels more dependent on the other, I think, and that is when the relationship changes and those power dynamics rear their ugly heads - maybe it has something to do with respect? If one party knows that the other is willing to take abuse or crap, then they begin to respect them less as a person, and consequently love them less? Because how can you love somebody you do not respect?

 

I guess therein lies the power game - and I guess that is why NC and a stong attitude/facade are really important in order to give the impression of "I love you, but but I can give or take you if you treat me like crap".

 

But it seems so difficult, because if you take the 'you had better treat me with respect' stuff to far, then you can push them away.

 

Why are relationships so GD hard?

[hardtocope]

I’m in my late 30s and I can tell you all that stuff is BS. If you put that many rules and restrictions on a relationship it’s bound to fail. I mean why we don’t do this with our friendships or our families. Those people we accept for who they are, but throw a person in the sack with another and all of a sudden it’s a never ending string of games. How about all you have to be is yourself and if the other person doesn't like who you are they can find someone else.

 

I agree. +1

[AlwaysConflicted]

How much space is too much space? The dumpees just wait and wait for the dumper to reach out. Someone has to make the 1st move or NOTHING will happen.

 

It seems immature to disappear and hope someone misses you. We play all these power games. If you love someone, shouldn't you just be able to call them up and say "look I know we've had our differences, but we still have feelings for each other maybe we can talk about them"?

 

I'm all for giving a women or man a couple weeks to cool off, but anything past a month seems ludicrous to me. NC for longer than that shows that both people are refusing to make the 1st move. Thus nothing will happen.

[supersub]

I totally agree with both of you.

 

My point is that it does seem whoever is cooler about the whole thing has the upper-hand. Why be in a relationship if you are not that invested, especially one that is long term.

 

Like I have said many times before.

 

How cool is coldness?

 

Madness really isn't it.

 

"I'm really into you, but I dare not show it."

[AlwaysConflicted]

I don't know. I'm about to give up entirely. I'm going to break my month of NC. I miss her. I respected her space and showed it by NC for a month. I'm a man who loves a woman.

 

If she doesn't want my love then I'll be sad and devastated. But not knowing is worse for me. We're both 30 and mature enough to deal with this situation. She has issues and I have issues. I'm stepping up to bat, because sitting in the dugout can't get me a home run.

 

The only thing I agree with is that a period of a 2 - 3 weeks of NC is needed to cool off and think about everything in a calm collective manner. After that time has passed, swing for the fences.

[Ilovecake]

How much space is too much space? The dumpees just wait and wait for the dumper to reach out. Someone has to make the 1st move or NOTHING will happen.

 

It seems immature to disappear and hope someone misses you. We play all these power games. If you love someone, shouldn't you just be able to call them up and say "look I know we've had our differences, but we still have feelings for each other maybe we can talk about them"?

 

I'm all for giving a women or man a couple weeks to cool off, but anything past a month seems ludicrous to me. NC for longer than that shows that both people are refusing to make the 1st move. Thus nothing will happen.

 

There is a lot wrong with this. The dumper DID make the first move by telling you they no longer want you in their life. Why do dumpees always doubt those words and feel they need to reach out? They know you have feelings for them but they don't have the same feelings for you or they would have stayed. Yet dumpees have the hardest time believing such a simple fact and try to make a game of cat and mouse out of it only making things worse for themselves by doing so. NC is not a game, it’s what you do when someone doesn’t want to have anything to do with you. Why do people assume that when they are dumped it's some sort of test? It's not, it's very straight forward. They want to live their life without you.

[AlwaysConflicted]

It's not, it's very straight forward. They want to live their life without you.

 

I don't agree. Emotions aren't logical or predictable. People say and do stuff they don't mean all the time. Your perspective seems jaded.

 

If someone says, " I don't love you". Then yes, it's time to move on. But as long as both people share feelings there is always a chance.

 

Now maybe, I am wrong and I'll admit it when the time comes.

[Ilovecake]

I don't agree. Emotions aren't logical or predictable. People say and do stuff they don't mean all the time. Your perspective seems jaded.

 

If someone says, " I don't love you". Then yes, it's time to move on. But as long as both people share feelings there is always a chance.

 

Now maybe, I am wrong and I'll admit it when the time comes.

 

Not jaded, realistic. Every dumpee makes a fantasy game out of it. They chose to believe in their perticular special instance the dumper did not mean it. I tend to take people at their word, unless otherwise indicated; I don't see how that's being jaded. If someone tells me I don not wish to be in arelationship with you I believe them and leave it at that. If they change their mind in the future they can tell me then. If both people still have strong feelings for each other then there is no reason to end it so breaking up with someone you don't want to break up with is playing games. Who wants to be with someone who does that? Of course there are special instances where people have no choice but to separate no matter how strongly they feel about each other but in that case it’s usually a mutual decision, there is no dumper and dumpee.

 

So no I don't think it's healthy for a dumpee to assume that the dumper didn't mean it and keep pursuing the dumper.

[supersub]

I don't agree. Emotions aren't logical or predictable. People say and do stuff they don't mean all the time. Your perspective seems jaded.

 

If someone says, " I don't love you". Then yes, it's time to move on. But as long as both people share feelings there is always a chance.

 

Now maybe, I am wrong and I'll admit it when the time comes.

 

I think the only possible way to a second chance IS by moving on, but by then you won't and shouldn't care anyway.

 

[supersub]

- Okay, so what if I don't want to give up on her? - You don't call.

- You said I don't call if I wanted to give up on her. - Right.

- So I don't call either way. - Right.

- So what's the difference? - There is no difference right now.

See, Mike, the only difference between giving up and not giving up...

is if you take her back when she wants to come back.

But you can't do anything to make her want to come back.

In fact, you can only do stuff to make her not want to come back.

So the only difference is if I forget about her or just pretend to forget about her.

- Right. - Well, that sucks.

Yeah, it sucks.

So it's like a retroactive decision then? I mean, I could, like, forget about her.

And then when she comes back, make like I just pretended to forget about her?

Right, although probably more likely the opposite.

What do you mean?

I mean, at first you're gonna pretend to forget about her.

Not call her, I don't know, whatever.

But then, eventually, you really will forget about her.

- Well, unless she comes back first. - Mm, see, that's the thing.

Somehow they know not to come back until you really forget.

- There's the rub. - There's the rub.

[GrayClouds]

Our society does not value permanence as much as it sue to. It also increasing puts things like image and prestige as primary importance. It encourages immediate gratification over delayed quality. It make relationships hard if those are not value you want in your relationships.

 

It places importance on having the self love to take the time to really get to know someone, looking past the instant attraction, seeing if they value the same things. Watching behavior, not just words, to see if they do. It is more important then ever to develop the ability to be alone so you can choose the right people to be in your life.

 

- Okay, so what if I don't want to give up on her? - You don't call.

- You said I don't call if I wanted to give up on her. - Right.

- So I don't call either way. - Right.

- So what's the difference? - There is no difference right now.

See, Mike, the only difference between giving up and not giving up...

is if you take her back when she wants to come back.

But you can't do anything to make her want to come back.

In fact, you can only do stuff to make her not want to come back.

So the only difference is if I forget about her or just pretend to forget about her.

- Right. - Well, that sucks.

Yeah, it sucks.

So it's like a retroactive decision then? I mean, I could, like, forget about her.

And then when she comes back, make like I just pretended to forget about her?

Right, although probably more likely the opposite.

What do you mean?

I mean, at first you're gonna pretend to forget about her.

Not call her, I don't know, whatever.

But then, eventually, you really will forget about her.

- Well, unless she comes back first. - Mm, see, that's the thing.

Somehow they know not to come back until you really forget.

- There's the rub. - There's the rub.

 

There is a third option. It is quite simple, really not easy, but it is the one that matters. It is not about trying to play the odds or thinking 3 moves ahead in the chess match. It is not about manipulation, competition, or ego. So what is it?

 

It deciding that your going to do is for you.

 

Seeing that the break-up is not about how you can effect the other, but how you chose to let it effect your. Making the decision to keep the focus on you, caring for yourself so you can heal, and learning about yourself so you grow and became a better you.

Edited June 10, 2010 by GrayClouds

[supersub]

Our society does not value permanence as much as it sue to. It also increasing puts things like image and prestige as primary importance. It encourages immediate gratification over delayed quality. It make relationships hard if those are not value you want in your relationships.

 

It places importance on having the self love to take the time to really get to know someone, looking past the instant attraction, seeing if they value the same things. Watching behavior, not just words, to see if they do. It is more important then ever to develop the ability to be alone so you can choose the right people to be in your life.

 

 

 

There is a third option. It is quite simple, really not easy, but it is the one that matters. It is not about trying to play the odds or thinking 3 moves ahead in the chess match. It is not about manipulation, competition, or ego. So what is it?

 

It deciding that your going to do is for you.

 

Seeing that the break-up is not about how you can effect the other, but how you chose to let it effect your. Making the decision to keep the focus on you, caring for yourself so you can heal, and learning about yourself so you grow and became a better you.

 

Sheer class Gray Clouds.

[AlwaysConflicted]

GrayClouds, you are light years ahead of me emotionally.

 

supersub, thanks for posting the swingers quote. It made me laugh and I needed that. I remember that scene so well. I also remember when Favreau calls the girls answering machine 100 times.

 

This recent ex of mine has really done a number on my self esteem.

 

Our society does not value permanence as much as it sue to. It also increasing puts things like image and prestige as primary importance. It encourages immediate gratification over delayed quality. It make relationships hard if those are not value you want in your relationships.

 

It places importance on having the self love to take the time to really get to know someone, looking past the instant attraction, seeing if they value the same things. Watching behavior, not just words, to see if they do. It is more important then ever to develop the ability to be alone so you can choose the right people to be in your life.

 

And this is the reason why she left me. I've mentioned in other posts before. My parents have been in love for over 40 years. They went through some incredibly rough patches where I thought divorce was on the horizon, but they always came back to the table to communicate. My dad would storm off, get in his car and just drive. 15 minutes later, he'd be back home with a calm head and telling my mom how much he loved her. To this day they still snuggle on the couch.

 

Relationships take work, but none of these women that I date stick through rough patches. "It's not working...fine lets split." Scares the hell out of me. I sure hope I don't marry one of these girls and then get ill.

[GrayClouds]

GrayClouds, you are light years ahead of me emotionally.

 

And your much farther then you think. Many of us we did not have people in our lives that gave us a model to pattern our relationships, our lives after as you did. It may not make finding that special person easier, you at least know what your looking for which makes it so much more likely you will find it and much farther ahead then most.

 

Now the only challenge is looking beyond the cute face, witty banter, hot body to take the time to actually get to know them. As your parents has showed it is behavior that makes realtionship works. How does this person react to their stress; do they look to blame others or look for others to make them feel better? How open can they be in communicating their needs; can they ask for what they want rather then expecting someone to guess? How effectively do they express anger; can they do it in a productive way? Do they show commitment in other aspect of their lives? What models did they have in their lives, what did they learn from them?

 

Fact is disingenious to complain that other can not delay gratification in a realitionship if we do not have the strength to delay graticiation before we enter into one. Dating is now replace by realtionships. We entering realtionships as a way to get to know someone rather then getting to know someone to see if we should enter into a realtionship. When we rush our crush, should we be surprised when they do not turn out to be who we thought they were?

[GrayClouds]

GrayClouds, you are light years ahead of me emotionally.

 

And your much farther then you think. Unlike many of us we did not have people in our lives that gave us a model to pattern our relationships, our lives after. It may not making finding that person easier, you at least know what your looking for which makes it so much more likely you will find it.

 

Now the only challenge is looking beyond the cute face, witty banter, hot body to take the time to actually get to know them. As your parents has showed it is behavior that makes realtionship works. How does this person react to their stress; do they look to blame others or look for others to make them feel better? How open can they be in communicating their needs; can they ask for what they want rather then expecting someone to guess? How effectively do they express anger; can they do it in a productive way? Do they show commitment in other aspect of their lives? What models did they have in their lives, what did they learn from them?

 

Fact is disingenious to complain that other can not delay gratification in a realitionship if we do not have the strength to delay graticiation before we enter into one. Dating is now replace by realtionships. We entering realtionships as a way to get to know someone rather then getting to know someone to see if we should enter into a realtionship. When we rush our crush, should we be surprised when they do not turn out to be who we thought they were?

[AlwaysConflicted]

Dating is now replace by realtionships. We entering realtionships as a way to get to know someone rather then getting to know someone to see if we should enter into a realtionship. When we rush our crush, should we be surprised when they do not turn out to be who we thought they were?

 

That is so true, especially in my circumstance. I rushed into the relationship because I felt the pressure of society to get married and so did she. As I've mentioned we're both 30 and according to everyone else around me, I should have been married by 27 and should have a 2 year old child running around. Now I find myself older, less attractive and rushing each relationship to the marriage finish line.

 

As if once I reach marriage, I've accomplished the goal of life. When in actuality it becomes 100 times more complicated in good and bad ways. But you're right, I enter a relationship to get to know someone instead of getting to know them and then entering it. I guess I'm letting society influence me. MUST GET MARRIED, MUST HAVE KIDS, MUST BUY HOUSE, MUST HAVE "NORMAL" LIFE. It's all so silly.

 

What am I doing? I'm 30, just lost my job, have a chronic illness, and now my hair is thinning out. I guess I can either jump off a bridge or try to find peace. Regardless, this break up didn't help. Who knows? Maybe it gave me the leverage I need to change my perspective.