Women, Relationships and Careers

[Myowntwofeet]

I was just reading in another thread regarding successful women ( be it the OW or BS) and it was interesting.

 

It was being discussing how women in a higher profile, professional capacity would have a more difficult time finding them on the side of the OW .

 

I find this interesting as my "take" is slightly different. I am also successful and in a industry that is highly male dominated and still very much a "boys club". I fought tooth and nail to jump the hurdles I did early on in my career and certainly can dance with the best of them.

 

Now, I also know the demand that plays on a personal level. I know that 6 or 7 years ago... I was married to my career, and "surviving". I did not have anything handed to me nor did I have the benefit of a great foundation ( parents, etc).

 

My XMM's wife is also highly successful, in fact more so than me... so maybe I would be considered the "bottom feeder:o" Monetarily she does make more than I, professionally - we have both done exceptionally well in our chosen careers ( as has MM).

 

I believe that often ( not always) those of us that do have professional drive really do falter on the personal level. It is late, and I can't recall the book - but I have read it is very common that women who are high profile, successful actually struggle with many of their personal relationships, especially intimate ones.

 

I had decided just about 2 years prior to meeting MM that I was going to step back and live. I had worked 6am until midnight for years moving up.... attached to my BB and computer and I decided personally, I needed to find balance. It was something I brought to him ( and in turn he did as well) but it was something that I *believe she struggles with.

 

Now.... had he met me 2 years prior... I am not sure I would have been capable of being the "OW". One of the benefits I have enjoyed is being self-employee the past couple years which allowed me a great deal of flexibility ( travel, schedules) and while I seldom re-arranged things for him, it did allow us to mutually schedule on the weekend for the upcoming events we wanted to attend, lunches and time, etc.

 

I am not sure what I am asking:p... Did I say I was tired.

 

Just curious if either OW or W feel their career has played a role ( positive or negative) in their personal relationships.

[Silly_Girl]

Just curious if either OW or W feel their career has played a role ( positive or negative) in their personal relationships.

 

I have a good job and worked hard to get where I am. I'm very proud of my achievements. For me I find it very hard to meet people, my time = work/son and little else. I can't date anyone at work (even though the workforce is 90% male) because of my position.

 

Looking back, the way I met MM and the way things grew may have been suited to my personal situation better than more 'traditional' methods.

[Just a stone's throw]

I too have an advanced education, a self-made successful career and have financial stability and upward mobility. My family was blue collar and hard working but I achieved everything on my own dime (I will qualify that to say our own dime as my H has helped also and is a successful business man). My family helped me in emotional ways, not monetary ways.

 

I believe that through the advancement of my education and what I've experienced in my professional career it has afforded me the confidence to step out of what was a normal and somewhat mundane lifestyle into the challenge/risk of my A. My exMM is very successful too as is his W though she does depend on him financially only b/c that's how they arranged it so that she can spend time with their kids. But I believe she has the capability, if needed to be very successful.

 

I do think I was wrapped up in my career for some time which did distance me from my H and made the A more likely. My H too was in the same boat and it set the stage, so to speak. But I do believe it was my confidence level that allowed me to feel I could have an A and not get caught. (pretty silly now that I am thinking about it)

 

I think women, in the last few decades have experienced a surge of confidence and independence that has resulted in the ability to appreciate things outside of societal norms (i.e. the marriage and A's). I don't think it's necessarily good that they don't end one relationship before exploring another but it has somewhat leveled the playing field to what I think men have done for years and now professional/successful women are catching up.

 

I think this is only one subgroup though, of women who have A's. But is one that I can relate to.

 

JAST

Edited June 10, 2010 by Just a stone's throw

[OWoman]

I had been M, and found that role too constraining of the other aspects of my life. It felt like ancient Chinese footbinding - having these teeny feet that were prevented from growing apace with the rest of my body, and thus no longer able to support and move my body along as I needed. So I removed the bindings, and danced.

 

I found the demands and expectations of full-time Rs with SGs similarly constraining. They were not prepared to accept coming 10th in my life after work, kids, studying, household, animal, friends, extended family, hobbies, and organisational commitments. They expected a higher priority ranking, and my circumstances and orientation would not allow that, so I found a R format that suited me better (As). Only MMs - who already had similar demands of their own to meet, and were thus not looking to have those needs met by me -seemed to appreciate that they would be just a sliver of my life, as and when i was able to schedule them in.

 

As a single parent with kids in private schools and no financial support from their father, I had to have a high-earning job, to make ends meet - but it was about more than that. I'm not one of those magazine-stereotype women who derives her identity from her relationships. My identity derives from what I do, not who I'm with - and finding work that was sufficiently challenging, engaging and rewarding was very necessary because of who I am.

 

But also, working in that type of position, in that type of environment, in its own turn gave me access to the kind of men I could consider shortlisting as lovers. So it cut both ways for me - and while it was a necessity, it was also freely chosen. I could have opted to have the courts compel my kids' grandfather to support them, while working in a lower-stress job, rented a room rather than owning a house, sent them to state schools nearby and laughed off university studies... but I would probably have turned into my mother then, frustrated and unhappy. I wanted the best for my kids, and I wanted the best for myself, too - to be the best I could, to live my life authentically. I had to be me.

[pureinheart]

Just curious if either OW or W feel their career has played a role ( positive or negative) in their personal relationships.

 

Hi MOTF and all....

 

I was raised by an extremely independant mother and an extremely intelligent father. My parents D'ed and re-married (both were in A's and M'ed their AP).

 

Both parents were very successful in their careers and very respected. Needless to say this was very hard to hold a candle to. Many sang praises of them and talked down to me at times.

 

Career wise I followed in my fathers footsteps, I wanted for him to be proud of me...my mother said my career choice ruined me...oh well, right. My mother was unable to see the fact that I was just like her (independant, strong willed, rebellious and hard headed...which was my nick name, 'hard head').

 

In various times in my life would have pity parties in which I was the only one in attendance...lol...thinking I was not successful in anything...although would reflect and discovered I am extremely successful and surpassed any and all expectations.

 

I was hard to live with at times because I would not let anyone control me, and when it came to our home I was very particular and a clean freak, which the clean freak/perfectionism were direct results of my job. Peoples lives literally depended on precision calculations.

 

I worked hard and played hard and chose my job over my R's regularly. I raised my kids on my own as their fathers did not play much of a part in their lives. I had to be strong and had to have my sh*t together.

 

I began my own personal councelling back in 1993, at this time I learned much and shared all that I learned with my kids and learned how to councel them. They respect me and my opinion. They are not arrogant and prideful and have extreme respect for others and require that it be returned from those that it matters.

 

They are very successful and have good hearts...now we are working on the next generation in which all grandkids are being prepared for life.

 

In thinking, I found much definition/identity in my job, my kids, grandkids and parents, and good friends (of which I have many)...although have never found this in any other type of R....hummmmm

[threebyfate]

Prior to the last three months, I was a careerist. As far as the ex-husband was concerned, it had nothing to do with his cheating. His cheating had to do with his Narcissistic Personality Disorder which caused his insecurity, in that he felt I never needed him. His issues were that I didn't rely on him financially and would have no problems finding another partner easily. He wasn't wrong. I didn't need him. For that matter, I don't need anyone but for certain, I wanted to be with him which to me was far better, since its voluntary.

 

I will give one observation to the OWs on this site. Since coming to LS, there's one relatively consistent personality trait that I've noticed in OWs. Most are highly competitive women who intellectually state they're attractive but deep down inside, don't necessarily believe it.

[torranceshipman]

I was just reading in another thread regarding successful women ( be it the OW or BS) and it was interesting.

 

It was being discussing how women in a higher profile, professional capacity would have a more difficult time finding them on the side of the OW .

 

I find this interesting as my "take" is slightly different. I am also successful and in a industry that is highly male dominated and still very much a "boys club". I fought tooth and nail to jump the hurdles I did early on in my career and certainly can dance with the best of them.

 

Now, I also know the demand that plays on a personal level. I know that 6 or 7 years ago... I was married to my career, and "surviving". I did not have anything handed to me nor did I have the benefit of a great foundation ( parents, etc).

 

My XMM's wife is also highly successful, in fact more so than me... so maybe I would be considered the "bottom feeder:o" Monetarily she does make more than I, professionally - we have both done exceptionally well in our chosen careers ( as has MM).

 

I believe that often ( not always) those of us that do have professional drive really do falter on the personal level. It is late, and I can't recall the book - but I have read it is very common that women who are high profile, successful actually struggle with many of their personal relationships, especially intimate ones.

 

I had decided just about 2 years prior to meeting MM that I was going to step back and live. I had worked 6am until midnight for years moving up.... attached to my BB and computer and I decided personally, I needed to find balance. It was something I brought to him ( and in turn he did as well) but it was something that I *believe she struggles with.

 

Now.... had he met me 2 years prior... I am not sure I would have been capable of being the "OW". One of the benefits I have enjoyed is being self-employee the past couple years which allowed me a great deal of flexibility ( travel, schedules) and while I seldom re-arranged things for him, it did allow us to mutually schedule on the weekend for the upcoming events we wanted to attend, lunches and time, etc.

 

I am not sure what I am asking:p... Did I say I was tired.

 

Just curious if either OW or W feel their career has played a role ( positive or negative) in their personal relationships.

 

Tbh it just boils to old fashioned bad choices - nothing more. Highly successful people or stay at home mom's are just as likely to make a bad decision of this kind.

[jj33]

There is an extent to which I think its an excuse. If you are a workaholic you are a workaholic and I must cound myself in that class. Many many successful women in my field are married. Might it have been easier if I didn't work so hard? Maybe but maybe I'm just not as good at juggling it all as they are.

 

On the other hand commentators have said its not surprising that the women nominated for the supreme court are unmarried and childless its hard to have it all at a very high level - but then look at Hillary Clinton. Despite the issues in her marriage she is a wife a mother and an unquestionably successful professional. So I don't think any of that corrolates to career.

 

Either you make room in your life or you don't. Either you have intimacy issues or you don't.

[silktricks]

Either you make room in your life or you don't. Either you have intimacy issues or you don't.

 

I like this and it resonates with me. It's easy to place the blame for marital problems on being too engaged with a career, but it's one of those chicken and egg things - which came first.

 

I know that I can have intimacy issues. Is that why I chose a career that is fairly consuming - which then had a direct impact on my private life? It's certainly possible.

[2sure]

Big Time. Previously, while building up my career I was OW. I felt at the time that I didnt have the lifestyle or time or ambition for a "real" relationship. Problems with intimacy? Oh yeah, not sex just intimacy.

 

My H was shopping for a trophy wife and found me. Educated, successful, able to network him via our related professions. He had not counted on there being more to me than that & I had not counted on him feeling so insecure with himself he needed me to validate him. Problem was...there IS no validating him, he needs it constantly & from other women. We are divorcing. He used to say I was too good for him. He was right.

 

So, now, once again I am focusing on my career & doing well. I might as well , relationships seem beyond me.

[jthorne]

There is an extent to which I think its an excuse. If you are a workaholic you are a workaholic and I must cound myself in that class. Many many successful women in my field are married. Might it have been easier if I didn't work so hard? Maybe but maybe I'm just not as good at juggling it all as they are.

 

On the other hand commentators have said its not surprising that the women nominated for the supreme court are unmarried and childless its hard to have it all at a very high level - but then look at Hillary Clinton. Despite the issues in her marriage she is a wife a mother and an unquestionably successful professional. So I don't think any of that corrolates to career.

 

Either you make room in your life or you don't. Either you have intimacy issues or you don't.

I agree wholeheartedly here. It's all about choice and personal responsibility. The rest is just justifications for your actions. I am a successful businesswoman. I was a successful businesswoman as an OW, and will be as a W.

[silktricks]

look at Hillary Clinton. Despite the issues in her marriage she is a wife a mother and an unquestionably successful professional. So I don't think any of that corrolates to career.

Maybe there was a reason that she and Bill stayed married after all of his philandering. I'd say that obviously they love each other, but possibly, in addition, his infidelity worked into her own intimacy issues.... just supposin'...

[jj33]

Maybe. I think there is a link with these things. I also think that is why many OW are very naive when a man complians about his marriage and is happy with them that they allow themselves to believe that this will be sufficient for him to exit.

 

All the other factors aside (lets not get stuck on those old chestnuts that ruin every thread) there are subtle psychological dances at work in all relationships. There are co dependencies good and bad that keep people together in the best and the worst of marriages.

[pureinheart]

There is an extent to which I think its an excuse. If you are a workaholic you are a workaholic and I must cound myself in that class. Many many successful women in my field are married. Might it have been easier if I didn't work so hard? Maybe but maybe I'm just not as good at juggling it all as they are.

 

On the other hand commentators have said its not surprising that the women nominated for the supreme court are unmarried and childless its hard to have it all at a very high level - but then look at Hillary Clinton. Despite the issues in her marriage she is a wife a mother and an unquestionably successful professional. So I don't think any of that corrolates to career.

 

Either you make room in your life or you don't. Either you have intimacy issues or you don't.

 

Big Time. Previously, while building up my career I was OW. I felt at the time that I didnt have the lifestyle or time or ambition for a "real" relationship. Problems with intimacy? Oh yeah, not sex just intimacy.

 

My H was shopping for a trophy wife and found me. Educated, successful, able to network him via our related professions. He had not counted on there being more to me than that & I had not counted on him feeling so insecure with himself he needed me to validate him. Problem was...there IS no validating him, he needs it constantly & from other women. We are divorcing. He used to say I was too good for him. He was right.

 

So, now, once again I am focusing on my career & doing well. I might as well , relationships seem beyond me.

 

Wow, these replies hit me like a ton of bricks (practically literal interpretation).

 

You know those times when someone says something (or you read it) and you can see "a mess" unravel...like something was tangled and it's untangling.

 

The rule is if it happens once it's mostlikely a mistake, although if it happens over and over again there is a serious problem. I have a serious problem...I chose men that would screw me over, the method is usually cheating or like 2Sure said that he stbex was always looking for his "validation" elsewhere...ok

 

Am I subconsciencely choosing this type? Like I have said before "project men"?

 

They are attracted TO my independance, although can't really handle it...and I am not an ass either when in a R...I DON'T LOOK AT OTHER MEN at all, and don't have inappropiate conversation, nothing...So it is me but it isn't at the same time.

 

I have also heard the "you are too good for me" ...and I would stop and think, "why are they saying this", and then become suspicious.

 

That's it...they were looking for validation from me...well I did not need any and would not play their game...soooo they went elsewhere...interesting.

 

No wonder I ran to my job all of the time and allowed that to become my identity (which IMO is a good choice anyway) as I could not trust intimate R (which were actually superficial).

 

I got validation from my job as I did not get encouraged from R's with men...I have heard.."I don't compliment you because I don't want you to get full of yourself and get a big head", *translation****: "It's me that's insecure and if you know what you really have and truly figure it out you might find someone who won't abuse you...I need to abuse you to keep you here and control you".

 

Thank you, I have a lot to think about now....all are excellent posts/replies:)

[Fieldsofgold]

Wow, these replies hit me like a ton of bricks (practically literal interpretation).

 

You know those times when someone says something (or you read it) and you can see "a mess" unravel...like something was tangled and it's untangling.

 

The rule is if it happens once it's mostlikely a mistake, although if it happens over and over again there is a serious problem. I have a serious problem...I chose men that would screw me over, the method is usually cheating or like 2Sure said that he stbex was always looking for his "validation" elsewhere...ok

 

Am I subconsciencely choosing this type? Like I have said before "project men"?

 

They are attracted TO my independance, although can't really handle it...and I am not an ass either when in a R...I DON'T LOOK AT OTHER MEN at all, and don't have inappropiate conversation, nothing...So it is me but it isn't at the same time.

 

I have also heard the "you are too good for me" ...and I would stop and think, "why are they saying this", and then become suspicious.

 

That's it...they were looking for validation from me...well I did not need any and would not play their game...soooo they went elsewhere...interesting.

 

No wonder I ran to my job all of the time and allowed that to become my identity (which IMO is a good choice anyway) as I could not trust intimate R (which were actually superficial).

 

I got validation from my job as I did not get encouraged from R's with men...I have heard.."I don't compliment you because I don't want you to get full of yourself and get a big head", *translation****: "It's me that's insecure and if you know what you really have and truly figure it out you might find someone who won't abuse you...I need to abuse you to keep you here and control you".

 

Thank you, I have a lot to think about now....all are excellent posts/replies:)

 

I can really identify with most of this post. I attract men who are attracted to my strength and independence - and then complain that I'm too independent!

 

And I have learned from experience that when a man tells me he's not good

enough for me -- don't argue with him, just thank him for the warning and walk away.

 

I believe my career has made me stronger and independent. I don't need a man desperately enough to tolerate unacceptable behavior.

[pureinheart]

I can really identify with most of this post. I attract men who are attracted to my strength and independence - and then complain that I'm too independent!

 

And I have learned from experience that when a man tells me he's not good

enough for me -- don't argue with him, just thank him for the warning and walk away.

 

I believe my career has made me stronger and independent. I don't need a man desperately enough to tolerate unacceptable behavior.

 

FOG, they ARE telling the truth lol and you are smart to walk:)...I just think it is so strange to communicate something like this that IS so very truthful. My question is what is the motive behind the motive.

 

This is so negative,although I'm wondering if the reasoning behind this is a vain attempt to tell the truth which absolves them of all guilt because they can go back and say.."I told you".

 

This is an amazing thread...true success stories

[TinaniT]

Highly successful people or stay at home mom's are just as likely to make a bad decision of this kind.

 

I would venture that most stay at home moms (most are by choice) would disagree with your characterization of them as the opposite of successful.

 

Very few of the moms in my personal circle who have enough family income chose to continue working, regardless of their successful career, when given the opportunity to dedicate themselves to their child. (Not that there is anything wrong, of course, with choosing to work if that is how you feel your children are better served. You have to know yourself.) Nothing in my life could ever make me feel more successful than knowing I gave all I could to making my son grow up happy, healthy, and strong.

[calculus one]

Maybe. I think there is a link with these things. I also think that is why many OW are very naive when a man complians about his marriage and is happy with them that they allow themselves to believe that this will be sufficient for him to exit.

 

All the other factors aside (lets not get stuck on those old chestnuts that ruin every thread) there are subtle psychological dances at work in all relationships. There are co dependencies good and bad that keep people together in the best and the worst of marriages.

 

Your commentary shows depth and subtlety!