Chronological Catch 22

[califnan]

Good point, Joe. While some posters need extra information to understand the circumstances behind the original post, other posters are just out fishing to bash the original poster. Hence the apparent inconsequence.

 

----------------------

 

I don't consider myself fishing or bashing .. or with an agenda .. Have seen both sides of things.. and am trying to spare people, if nothing else..

 

Everytime I tried to take shortcuts in life (against God's Word) .. I got burned... I wonder why ..

 

While JJ ignores my posts, I hope she does read them ..

[califnan]

 

Now he's able to be his "whole self" with Jennie, but is afraid that if he leaves his wife to be with Jennie that their relationship may dwindle and he'd be left with nothing. So in his fear of being alone he first screwed himself of having a real relationship with his wife, his wife of having a real relationship with anyone, Jennie of having a complete relationship with him, and himself all over again of having a complete relationship he claims that he wants that is accepted and known by all.

 

 

----------------------

 

As others have pointed out .. In leaving the marriage to have the affair - he has two women.. and has become accustomed to having both women.. He likes/loves certain portions of each of them .. Why would he wish to settle for one or the other - life has been Too good..

[Fieldsofgold]

I don't think it has anything to do with him being "the good guy" or "the bad guy." (I personally already think he's the bad guy - for reasons I won't go into here.)

 

I think he is "the weak guy." He didn't have the backbone to deal with the problems he and his wife both face at home. Instead of dealing with his and her and "their" problems, he escapes into this fantasyland, where *he* gets loads of attention (without having to compete with six young children for his wife's attention.) He gets lots of ego massaging. He gets lots of excuses made to justify his spineless and cowardly and just downright shabby (IMO) behavior. He gets to play hide the noodle with a different woman. And more than anything else, he doesnt have to deal with real life. He gets to escape the humdrum monotony of home and wife and six children. He has this fantasy relationship to escape to. And he doesn't have the backbone to choose one or the other; he doesn't have the backbone to make a decision for or agin'.

 

My guess is that he never will choose.

[bananalaffytaffy]

My guess is that he never will choose.

I certainly could be wrong, but I suspect the OP knows MM will never leave, and chooses to stay anyway. But how much sympathy and attention would she receive from this board if she admitted that?

The purpose of this thread makes a little more sense now.

[califnan]

I certainly could be wrong, but I suspect the OP knows MM will never leave, and chooses to stay anyway. But how much sympathy and attention would she receive from this board if she admitted that?

The purpose of this thread makes a little more sense now.

 

-----------------------

 

I think all of the time wasted with the MM is in thoughts that he will leave..

 

This man has become too comfortable..

 

And the six children (even thought they were before JJ) speaks for itself..

 

The OW don't see these relationships for what they truly were, until they manage to get to the other side of them..

[NoIDidn't]

Again, wow. The more that is revealed about this MM, his home life, his work schedule, and so on...the more this sounds like the (typical) affairs you read about in the books. I certainly don't mean this to demean him or Jennie, or anyone else in this type of set up.

 

I have to agree with Silk. He won't fight for his M OR his A, but he wants both of them because he is too afraid to make any decisions on his own. Kind of makes the question in the OP moot. He's not in any catch-22 if he's not going to do anything, just like he's already done.

 

I have to disagree with Jennie that if she left, she'd be making a decision FOR him. No, Jennie. You'd be making the decision for yourself, he'd just be affected by it.

 

Either way, I don't think he's evil, just weak and unable to make a firm decision because he's too concerned about what he would lose, not what he would gain. He would actually gain a full R, if he committed (completely and FOR REAL) to either one of them. Shame he is only focused on fears based on assumptions made in his head (his private world) and not on what's real.

[silktricks]

I don't think it has anything to do with him being "the good guy" or "the bad guy." (I personally already think he's the bad guy - for reasons I won't go into here.)

I hope you didn't misunderstand my use of "bad guy" and "good guy". I didn't mean that his actions were good, but rather that the people looking at him would see him as "bad" or "good" from their viewpoint, since they didn't (don't) have complete information... does that make sense?

[bittersweet memories]

You mean how can he get his W to fill the voids YOU fill? IE, how can he get his W to adopt the qualities YOU bring to HIS life?

 

Well, the smartazz answer is to tell the wife (there would be a hint of truth to that though)

 

Not so smartazz answer: impossible.

 

You are you and his W is his W. You each have strengths and weaknesses. You each offer something to HIS life and in both HE finds fulfillment. HE has zero reason to tell his W. Why end his perfectly fulfilled life and simultaneously bring the wrath of his W, friends, family, etc. Only a man who is looking to leave will do that. Which, in the vernacular of my post means his W, in his mind, no longer fulfills many/any needs. The M is done. HE just needed the soft landing (or "reason to leave").

 

The flip side is also true...he won't leave the W for the W out of fear the OW will fail to meet all his needs (ie his W meets those) not too mention BOTH fill his voids so why pick one to begin with (and possibly wind up with unmet needs - again).

 

I bet he thinks this more often than he lets on.

The better is question for you JJ is WHY he would think this as opposed to "Can JJ meet all my needs"?

This seems like a retreat from the A imo.

 

No. Because he has learned that instead of working with his W and working internally, he goes outside the M. The ONLY way he recaptures "that" with his W is to end the A and actually WORK at the M. And we all know its impossible to work on the M when the A is still alive and kicking.

 

So, if he wants this with his W, he has to let you go.

 

I wonder if those thoughts haven't begun creeping into his mind.

Of course he can...and who says he hasn't?

There are clearly communication issues in the M and within himself.

 

Its NOT a catch 22. Its a choice. And like every choice that every human makes there will always be "the path not taken".

 

I think you will want to claim split-self here. But its not. I think its MUCH simpler...one or the other. But he won't choose because then he must give up his perfectly fulfilled life. And wth would he do that? He would need iron clad guarantee that whomever he picks will "be enough". Except we have a problem here.

 

HE already KNOWS the M and the W aren't enough. So why hasn't he left for one who MIGHT be enough?

 

Answer: (no, not split self) He doesn't believe you will be enough coupled with...why leave now that he has it all?

 

I don't say this as attack (the you are not enough bits)...I say it because its what I think he is doing and why.

 

Of course they haven't done "enough in the M". Nor will they. Again, with all their needs met their is little incentive to act. And they don't.

But, if they wanted to apply "lessons learned" from the A to their M they could. However, they have shown in actions a lack of communication to begin with (hence the A) and I wouldn't count on them starting now that they are in wrapped up in the A.

Not to be rude but the W is almost the primary R in the MM's mind.

Their ACTIONS support this.

 

Of course it is. After all, the MM built this bond with the OW.

The better Q is why the OW and not the W?

I wouldn't ask though...you'd sound more like a shrink and less like the OW (ie, no longer the escape/fantasy and more like nagging W).

 

ACTIONS...what do his ACTIONS say?

 

Answered above but in a nutshell yes.

 

I do not believe it is the OW. Rather its the bond. The filled voids.

 

Wow!! Great Post here!! You have a way with words...

[whichwayisup]

What about going to the counselor - might that not work?

 

I am not going to make a decision for him. I refuse to do that. I might make a decision for me. If I see some other nice male @ss around. But no way am I letting him off the hook by going NC as long as I am enjoying myself and getting my needs met.

 

Counselling WILL help him. Encourage him to go!

 

He is planning to find a counselor as well, just that he is so darn busy working all the time.

 

I call bunk on this one. NOONE is TOO busy to spend one or two hours at week doing counseling. He's scared to go, maybe scared because 'changes' will have to happen.

 

No offense, your MM is going to do NOTHING until either you or his wife DO something. Either you get fed up and walk away or his wife finds out the truth about his double life and SHE decides. But, even then, you've said he has no idea how HE'LL react to his wife's reaction. Anything could happen. Problem is, like stampdaddy's situation, he didn't want his MW because she would have stayed married if her husband hadn't pushed for a D. And, she didn't CHOOSE SD. Your MM wont' be 'choosing' you if his wife divorces him. It may not bother you now, but when the crap hits the fan, you may feel hurt, feel like second fiddle (even though you don't right now) and wish he chose you and wasn't 'forced into it' by his wife divorcing him.

 

Your MM has no intention of creating a D-day on purpose, or even confessing to his wife. He will wait it out, do nothing and continue on, stay married and keep you in his life.

 

Anyway, that's just one senaro..

[whichwayisup]

----------------------

 

As others have pointed out .. In leaving the marriage to have the affair - he has two women.. and has become accustomed to having both women.. He likes/loves certain portions of each of them .. Why would he wish to settle for one or the other - life has been Too good..

 

And this is why he is going to do nothing. No counselling, no decision making. He has it made in the shade. He's happy, his wife is happy (she doesn't know, she trusts her husband) and, JJ is happy. For now...

 

There eventually WILL be a D-Day.

 

I did ask this a long time ago, on another thread (maybe, or maybe it was this one?), but, what happens if your MM gets ill, has an accident, ends up in the hospital. Does he call you to sit by his bed side? Call his wife? Call both of you, but ask you to stay away? God forbid (knock on wood) something worse happens, what then? These ARE things you and your MM need to discuss.......

[jennie-jennie]

----------------------

 

I don't consider myself fishing or bashing .. or with an agenda .. Have seen both sides of things.. and am trying to spare people, if nothing else..

 

Everytime I tried to take shortcuts in life (against God's Word) .. I got burned... I wonder why ..

 

While JJ ignores my posts, I hope she does read them ..

 

I haven't been ignoring your posts, califnan, just had nothing to say in response to them.

[califnan]

JJ, I will share with you a trick of the trade.

 

Frank Sinatra, after having so many disastrous marriages - finally became hesitant to marry .. So Barbara broke up with him, and made her self seen out dating others .. It was then that he made the move.

 

It was the same with my OW. Unbeknownst to me at the time - but much later it had been disclosed to me that she started dating others, in order to get him to make his move..

 

I would think this could go the other way, as well .. But there are two instances that I know of ..

[jennie-jennie]

i have to agree with his. i know how frazzled I was when my 2 kids were little, i can't image raising 6!! i know you believe him when he talks about her lack of sexual intimacy, but maybe, just maybe, he doesn't turn her on? maybe, just maybe, he isn't that great for her?

 

You know, I have thought about this. And so has he. He says she has never really looked at him with desire. Maybe he just doesn't turn her on. Maybe she should be the one setting him free?

you also said he didn't want 6 kids. there are ways to ensure that doesn't happen. he could have gotten a vasectomy or used protection. it is obvious they had sex, and frequently, because most women don't get pregnant each time they had sex.

 

Perhaps I expressed myself unclearly. Before having any kids at all, he thought two was a good number. Obviously he and his wife decided to not use protection and instead welcome each child that came to them.

i feel sorry for you because it seems like you are just truly wishing for a 1-1 relationship with him but you won't get it and you are so wrapped up in him, you won't allow yourself to meet someone else. you seem to just keep waiting and waiting and waiting for him and from what you post, i don't see him divorcing, ever. i feel sad for you.

 

No need to feel sad for me. I am not the kind of OW who spends my time waiting for a man, I spend my time living my life and enjoying our relationship for what it is today. If it turns out to be more, great, if it doesn't that is fine too. If someone else comes my way, my eyes are wide open, you can be sure of that. I am not planning to let anyone pass me by.

[jennie-jennie]

I certainly could be wrong, but I suspect the OP knows MM will never leave, and chooses to stay anyway. But how much sympathy and attention would she receive from this board if she admitted that?

The purpose of this thread makes a little more sense now.

 

Could you explain to me what you consider to be the purpose of this thread then? I am confused.

 

I know there is a great probability my MM will never leave. In spite of that I have a faint hope that he will.

 

I was for a while a member of another OW forum. I prefer LS because here you are able to state that you are staying in the extramarital relationship AND hoping the MM will leave despite the odds. On the other forum you were told to just accept that the MM would never leave.

 

I am not here on LS to achieve sympathy and attention. Where did you get that from? I am here because I enjoy discussing these questions. It helps me stay strong while being the OW. That is what this board is for, right, "support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner".

[jennie-jennie]

And this is why he is going to do nothing. No counselling, no decision making. He has it made in the shade. He's happy, his wife is happy (she doesn't know, she trusts her husband) and, JJ is happy. For now...

 

There eventually WILL be a D-Day.

 

I did ask this a long time ago, on another thread (maybe, or maybe it was this one?), but, what happens if your MM gets ill, has an accident, ends up in the hospital. Does he call you to sit by his bed side? Call his wife? Call both of you, but ask you to stay away? God forbid (knock on wood) something worse happens, what then? These ARE things you and your MM need to discuss.......

 

We have discussed what happens in case my MM dies. He has said that he expects me to come to his funeral. He doesn't mind if the truth comes out then. He says he is who he is and if not before his wife and children need to accept that when he is dead.

 

At his office there is a book in which it states that I should have it in case of his death. In this book there is proof of our relationship and his love for me, along with many other things laying around at the office. It is not like his wife would not find out the truth if he died.

[anne1707]

Wow! Sorry Jennie-Jennie but your MM does not sound good there to me. When his wife and children are at their lowest, he has arranged for them to find out about you - and he expects them to accept that

 

Surely you can see how selfish and cruel that is?

[jennie-jennie]

Wow! Sorry Jennie-Jennie but your MM does not sound good there to me. When his wife and children are at their lowest, he has arranged for them to find out about you - and he expects them to accept that

 

Surely you can see how selfish and cruel that is?

 

The stuff at his office are things he keeps for his own sake. It is not like you know when you are going to die, so you can throw it out ahead of time.

 

It is obviously more important to him that I have the right to go to his funeral being so close to him, than for him to protect his wife and children from the truth.

[califnan]

We have discussed what happens in case my MM dies. He has said that he expects me to come to his funeral. He doesn't mind if the truth comes out then. He says he is who he is and if not before his wife and children need to accept that when he is dead.

 

At his office there is a book in which it states that I should have it in case of his death. In this book there is proof of our relationship and his love for me, along with many other things laying around at the office. It is not like his wife would not find out the truth if he died.

 

-------------------

 

It sounds as if he could be harboring anger / frustration for staying .. and that he thinks he is sacrificing ..

 

If his wife doesn't know about the affair - He is actually stealing from her by taking away valuable years of her life, in not allowing her to make the decision for herself - to take leave of the marriage and find a true husband.

[bittersweet memories]

Counselling WILL help him. Encourage him to go!

 

 

 

I call bunk on this one. NOONE is TOO busy to spend one or two hours at week doing counseling. He's scared to go, maybe scared because 'changes' will have to happen.

 

No offense, your MM is going to do NOTHING until either you or his wife DO something. Either you get fed up and walk away or his wife finds out the truth about his double life and SHE decides. But, even then, you've said he has no idea how HE'LL react to his wife's reaction. Anything could happen. Problem is, like stampdaddy's situation, he didn't want his MW because she would have stayed married if her husband hadn't pushed for a D. And, she didn't CHOOSE SD. Your MM wont' be 'choosing' you if his wife divorces him. It may not bother you now, but when the crap hits the fan, you may feel hurt, feel like second fiddle (even though you don't right now) and wish he chose you and wasn't 'forced into it' by his wife divorcing him.

 

Your MM has no intention of creating a D-day on purpose, or even confessing to his wife. He will wait it out, do nothing and continue on, stay married and keep you in his life.

 

Anyway, that's just one senaro..

 

Honestly, I cannot see JJ doing anything about it either.. she's to affraid MM might choose his wife over her and then what. So she would rather settle for what she has now. Just sayin...

[awkward]

It is obviously more important to him that I have the right to go to his funeral being so close to him, than for him to protect his wife and children from the truth.

 

Jennie - Why is he protecting them from the truth while he is still alive?

[jennie-jennie]

JJ, I will share with you a trick of the trade.

 

Frank Sinatra, after having so many disastrous marriages - finally became hesitant to marry .. So Barbara broke up with him, and made her self seen out dating others .. It was then that he made the move.

 

It was the same with my OW. Unbeknownst to me at the time - but much later it had been disclosed to me that she started dating others, in order to get him to make his move..

 

I would think this could go the other way, as well .. But there are two instances that I know of ..

 

Yeah, but you have to stay away from the guy to make that work. Ain't gonna happen with me. I don't leave until I leave, and then you will never see me again.

[jennie-jennie]

Honestly, I cannot see JJ doing anything about it either.. she's to affraid MM might choose his wife over her and then what. So she would rather settle for what she has now. Just sayin...

 

I am not afraid that my MM will choose his wife over me. I would respect such a choice. But I can not see that he is able to choose yet. The only way I can see him becoming ready to choose is by going to therapy.

 

I fully expect him to come back to me after a Dday once things have settled down at home. And I fully expect him to respect my wish if I went NC.

 

He just isn't ready to choose yet, and there is nothing I can do to hasten that process. Nothing his wife can do either probably. Come Dday, he will be back with both of us.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie - Why is he protecting them from the truth while he is still alive?

 

It is hard to speak for him, but I know it is very important for him not to break up the family. He feels he is selfish enough having an affair, he does not want to add to it by breaking up the family through a divorce.

 

I think he is protecting himself as well. He wants to be able to put his boys to bed at night, to have them come in in the morning and kiss him, he wants to be able to talk to his older children and support them, in short he wants to be a father and care for them all. As many other men, he is afraid to lose contact with his children if he would get divorced.

[whichwayisup]

We have discussed what happens in case my MM dies. He has said that he expects me to come to his funeral. He doesn't mind if the truth comes out then. He says he is who he is and if not before his wife and children need to accept that when he is dead.

 

OFCOURSE he wouldn't mind if the truth comes out aftewards! LOL! HE won't be there to deal with the fallout!! All the questions, realizations, mistrust, his wife feeling like their marriage was ONE big LIE! You ever see that tv show, Brothers and Sisters?

 

His wife and kids should know NOW. Not when he's dead. Wow, what a cop-out for him. It's just plain wrong and yes, you love him, but man, he is such a coward and is so selfish.

[Spark1111]

Please disregard my last post. After re-reading, it seems rude, which, truly is not how I meant it.

 

I just often think about how my wife and I continuing to be boyfriend and girlfriend has contributed greatly to the longevity and happiness of my marriage.

 

Apologies for being unintentionally rude.

 

Absolutely no offense taken HAL! I so get the effort to remain boyfriend and girlfriend in a long term relationship. No one, he or me, are allowed to grow complacent.:)