jean-luc sisko Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 Let's admit it. How many people are nice, or kind, or benevolent? Since few people are, then what is the point in being so? Shouldn't society just drop the pretense and accept that basic human motivations boil down to basic self-interest, irrespective of what the cost to others is?
Trimmer Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 What pretense? I'm not under any illusion that "being nice" is a sacrifice, putting others' interests above my own, and I don't think there's much of a pretense "out there" that people are fundamentally altruistic, overriding their own self-interest... Now, we do appeal to people to be nice, have manners, and be kind, etc. as a way of trying to make our societies better, safer, and more enjoyable for everyone, but I don't think that naturally implies that we are all sacrificing for someone else, but rather that by adhering to some basic behaviors, we get, in return, a society that is more pleasant to live in. Also, my own tendency to "be nice" (when I am... ) isn't some kind of selfless act that saps my own life-energy in favor of others. My being nice is because I like being that kind of person, and I like contributing to the positive attitudes of my immediate circle of friends, neighbors, and others in my community, and a benefit is returned to me because I'm lucky to live in a community of fairly pleasant and enjoyable people. I do it because, overall, it works for me. Essentially selfish, in the sense that it serves my own interests, but "selfish" doesn't have to mean you automatically take away from others...
Author jean-luc sisko Posted June 9, 2010 Author Posted June 9, 2010 What pretense? I'm not under any illusion that "being nice" is a sacrifice, putting others' interests above my own, and I don't think there's much of a pretense "out there" that people are fundamentally altruistic, overriding their own self-interest... Now, we do appeal to people to be nice, have manners, and be kind, etc. as a way of trying to make our societies better, safer, and more enjoyable for everyone, but I don't think that naturally implies that we are all sacrificing for someone else, but rather that by adhering to some basic behaviors, we get, in return, a society that is more pleasant to live in. Also, my own tendency to "be nice" (when I am... ) isn't some kind of selfless act that saps my own life-energy in favor of others. My being nice is because I like being that kind of person, and I like contributing to the positive attitudes of my immediate circle of friends, neighbors, and others in my community, and a benefit is returned to me because I'm lucky to live in a community of fairly pleasant and enjoyable people. I do it because, overall, it works for me. Essentially selfish, in the sense that it serves my own interests, but "selfish" doesn't have to mean you automatically take away from others... but human society is tough, so why be nice? our nature is to dominate and control.
carhill Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 Social 'nice' = polite, respectful, cordial, pleasant. One can present those aspects of their personality while reserving the stronger, more violent ones, for appropriate use. Many tools in the toolbox of life. Select the right one for the job If being nice is truly a crock, anarchy is right around the corner. Hope you're ready for that
Trimmer Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 but human society is tough, so why be nice? our nature is to dominate and control. One part of our nature is to dominate and control. However, if those were our only drives, motivations, and abilities, we would be little more advanced than any wild pack animal you might choose to consider. We also have other drives and other abilities, some generally considered "positive" and some "negative." I don't think I can explain it any better than I did above, which is to say that the motivations that drive myself and my neighbors in our commnity are complex and they go way beyond simply "domination and control." As a result, we all find that if we offer some cooperation, (which can include degrees of being nice, benevolent, etc....) that we can forge a community which we prefer, over one in which we all would simply fight constantly for control and domination. I think you've said in an earlier thread that you are not very astute at the subtleties of social interaction, yes? Perhaps you might be able to access this concept in the context of the "Prisoner's Dilemma", which takes the same idea, but reduces it to a kind of a measurable risk/reward matrix. Maybe do some reading on that, and see if that puts the idea into focus for you...
Author jean-luc sisko Posted June 11, 2010 Author Posted June 11, 2010 One part of our nature is to dominate and control. However, if those were our only drives, motivations, and abilities, we would be little more advanced than any wild pack animal you might choose to consider. We also have other drives and other abilities, some generally considered "positive" and some "negative." I don't think I can explain it any better than I did above, which is to say that the motivations that drive myself and my neighbors in our commnity are complex and they go way beyond simply "domination and control." As a result, we all find that if we offer some cooperation, (which can include degrees of being nice, benevolent, etc....) that we can forge a community which we prefer, over one in which we all would simply fight constantly for control and domination. I think you've said in an earlier thread that you are not very astute at the subtleties of social interaction, yes? Perhaps you might be able to access this concept in the context of the "Prisoner's Dilemma", which takes the same idea, but reduces it to a kind of a measurable risk/reward matrix. Maybe do some reading on that, and see if that puts the idea into focus for you... All of our nature is to control and dominate. Look at human history, we are savage and brutal.
Author jean-luc sisko Posted June 11, 2010 Author Posted June 11, 2010 Social 'nice' = polite, respectful, cordial, pleasant. One can present those aspects of their personality while reserving the stronger, more violent ones, for appropriate use. Many tools in the toolbox of life. Select the right one for the job If being nice is truly a crock, anarchy is right around the corner. Hope you're ready for that This is false.
Ross PK Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Let's admit it. How many people are nice, or kind, or benevolent? Since few people are, then what is the point in being so? Shouldn't society just drop the pretense and accept that basic human motivations boil down to basic self-interest, irrespective of what the cost to others is? I'm nice, unless someone does something bad. If society did what you suggested I think most people would feel a lot more unhappy. People getting along and helping each other out is how we've evolved and has made us successful as a species.
Author jean-luc sisko Posted June 11, 2010 Author Posted June 11, 2010 I'm nice, unless someone does something bad. If society did what you suggested I think most people would feel a lot more unhappy. People getting along and helping each other out is how we've evolved and has made us successful as a species. So? Life is pain. who doesn't know that?
Trimmer Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 (edited) All of our nature is to control and dominate. Look at human history, we are savage and brutal. Just because you look at human history and believe that you see it as a pervasive influence, doesn't mean it's the only part of our nature. But if you look at every one of your fellow human beings and control and domination is all you see, I submit that it is, probably, the fundamental part of your nature. That must be hard, indeed, to live with. So? Life is pain. who doesn't know that? You're going to have to quote a higher philosophical source than The Princess Bride to convince me. I'm sorry your life is pain. Is it only pain? Edited June 11, 2010 by Trimmer
ADF Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Without a large measure of solidarity, cooperation and compassion, the human race wouldn't have gotten as far as it has. Your perspective on this is a bit skewed. Yes, people are capable of selfishness. But they are capable of selflessness as well. The fact is that on a day to day basis, most people act decently most of the time. If they didn't, no society on earth would function.
Ross PK Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 So? Life is pain. who doesn't know that? So it's better for everyone including yourself to feel more unhappy?
pureinheart Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Let's admit it. How many people are nice, or kind, or benevolent? Since few people are, then what is the point in being so? Shouldn't society just drop the pretense and accept that basic human motivations boil down to basic self-interest, irrespective of what the cost to others is? No being nice isn't a crock...what is the true crock is rude individuals... I have to be me, I communicate what I like and don't like, although being nice is part of my being...I need to be me....
Nikki Sahagin Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 The problem is that many 'nice' people tend to fall into camps. 1. Being nice on the surface with alterior motives i.e. i'll be nice to this person and they will reward me. If there is no reward, the 'nice' person becomes bitter and resentful. They are nice for rewards. 2. The nice person that has no backbone or assertiveness. These people become doormats and then wonder why people walk on them. Being nice is a great thing to be, if you have boundaries, are assertive, know when to say no and have other things going for you. No-one said being nice alone was a way to make it in the world.
sally4sara Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 We are social animals. It is just as much a part of our species to be malevolently opportunistic as it is to benevolently work together. Sounds like you're just in a funk and only able to see the bad right now.
Green Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Being good or "nice" as you put it and expecting life to hand you some kind of reward is pointless. Doing things you can be proud of and helping people because it makes YOU feel good is not "a crock."
threebyfate Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Essentially selfish, in the sense that it serves my own interests, but "selfish" doesn't have to mean you automatically take away from others...I really, really like the way you've worded this. I cannot stand the fake niceness that people put out who then get abusive or psychotic when there's no return for their fakery. There's no such thing as niceness, in the altruistic sense. But if your actions also benefit others, you're a step above most people.
Author jean-luc sisko Posted June 12, 2010 Author Posted June 12, 2010 Just because you look at human history and believe that you see it as a pervasive influence, doesn't mean it's the only part of our nature. But if you look at every one of your fellow human beings and control and domination is all you see, I submit that it is, probably, the fundamental part of your nature. That must be hard, indeed, to live with. You're going to have to quote a higher philosophical source than The Princess Bride to convince me. I'm sorry your life is pain. Is it only pain? - Yes, because human nature has never changed. Human history is about brutality, savagery and subjugation. - I understand the nature of man, and it is savage. - As for philosophical source, well observation, logic and history support my analysis. - My life is not pain. More often than not, I seek to treat people well.
You'reasian Posted June 13, 2010 Posted June 13, 2010 (edited) The problem is that many 'nice' people tend to fall into camps. 1. Being nice on the surface with alterior motives i.e. i'll be nice to this person and they will reward me. If there is no reward, the 'nice' person becomes bitter and resentful. They are nice for rewards. 2. The nice person that has no backbone or assertiveness. These people become doormats and then wonder why people walk on them. Being nice is a great thing to be, if you have boundaries, are assertive, know when to say no and have other things going for you. No-one said being nice alone was a way to make it in the world. There's a third camp: 3. Altruistic. These people are nice in spite of how others treat them, but do not mistake their kindness for weakness. Nikki, suppose someone does something nice for you, then walks away not expecting anything in return. From a selfish perspective, this seems idiotic or weak. From an altruistic perspective, this seems like a good thing. Edited June 13, 2010 by You'reasian
Author jean-luc sisko Posted June 13, 2010 Author Posted June 13, 2010 So it's better for everyone including yourself to feel more unhappy? Life is pain. This is a truth of the human condition. So if people's lives are unhappy, then it's just how it is, or how it was designed.
Author jean-luc sisko Posted June 17, 2010 Author Posted June 17, 2010 We are social animals. It is just as much a part of our species to be malevolently opportunistic as it is to benevolently work together. Sounds like you're just in a funk and only able to see the bad right now. hmm... but the world is anything goes. As anything goes, which is the inherent law of the universe, then it lends to the OP.
Taramere Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 My life is not pain. More often than not, I seek to treat people well. So why do you suppose you do that?
Author jean-luc sisko Posted June 23, 2010 Author Posted June 23, 2010 So why do you suppose you do that? to be decent. who doesn't act like that?
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