Last Minute Resistance...Token or not?

[DanielMadr]

This highly controversial theme. I'd like to know your serious opinion not the "safe" one.....Guys capable of date rape will come out with silly excuses for their criminal behavior on their own anyway.

 

What examples of Token resistance have you experienced as a guy?

 

What examples of Token resistance have you come up with as a girl?

 

Recently I was a witness to a debate between friends...guys and girls. I always thought of Token resistance in terms of 'Girl in high state of arousal, with relaxed expression and body, saying feeble, almost inaudible "no" just prior of penetration." Examples of Token resistance my friends came up with were pretty much more "advanced". And it got me thinking....

 

So, what is your take on that?

[Mr White]

I've never experienced it, so I can't tell, but the example you give seems fine, although I don't quite understand why would anybody do it - i.e. penetration or no penetration, once you're (consensually) naked, you ARE having sex, so I don't think it would be misguided to interpret it as "token".

[DanielMadr]

I've never experienced it, so I can't tell, but the example you give seems fine, although I don't quite understand why would anybody do it - i.e. penetration or no penetration, once you're (consensually) naked, you ARE having sex, so I don't think it would be misguided to interpret it as "token".

 

Anyone can decide not to have sex naked or not. Even in middle of intercourse you can change your mind: "Oh shyt, I just remembered now....I'm gay/married/late for abortion/work."

[Mr White]

Anyone can decide not to have sex naked or not. Even in middle of intercourse you can change your mind: "Oh shyt, I just remembered now....I'm gay/married/late for abortion/work."

 

Well, sure, of course. A no is a no, and also, per the type of examples given - probably also an indicator of major emotional issues . I'd honor a firm "no", and then never call again. There is nothing wrong with "i'm not ready to have sex yet"; what I don't understand is the concept of doing everything else and then arbitrarily deciding to stop at intercourse for no apparent or no good reason.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Mr White

[DanielMadr]

Well, sure, of course. A no is a no, and also, per the type of examples given - probably also an indicator of major emotional issues . I'd honor a firm "no", and then never call again. There is nothing wrong with "i'm not ready to have sex yet"; what I don't understand is the concept of doing everything else and then arbitrarily deciding to stop at intercourse for no apparent or no good reason.

 

I believe some girls do that ("NO" in the middle) as a ultimate shyt test. If you are the man with options you can pull your d!ck out, put your pants on, calmly walk away and just don't care because you know you can get it from her later or from someone else.

 

Some girls probably do that as Girls Power stunt.

 

Or just to create drama.

 

Or when they are so insecure they want to be sure you gonna stick around sex or no sex.

 

It is not token resistance it is bull shyte and a guy should stop and reconsider his screening process while having a smoke in the kitchen

[Stung]

I have been told there are girls who do this as a power play, or some such thing. Perhaps this is true, and if it is, it's a terrible thing that they ought to knock off as it gives other girls a bad name and gives aggressive men an 'excuse' to rape. I know there are girls who change their mind at the last minute because they are inexperienced/nervous, or because they suddenly start hearing their mother's/father's/preacher's/rabbi's/imam's voice telling them it's a bad thing to do, or because they are sobering up, or because they are recovering victims of prior sexual molestation or attack and are having a panic attack or something similar. I don't know how all these girls present themselves in such a situation, whether their 'no' or 'I can't' comes out forcefully or weakly...I'd imagine it's different in every situation, depending on how confident the girl is, how sober she is, whether she is feeling paralyzed by fear or just annoyed by something. What I can't imagine is how a man, no matter how raging his boner, can just press through ANY 'token' resistance and completely discount the possibility that he might have just turned into a rapist.

 

I am not in the habit of making 'token' resistance. I am a sexual being and make no apology for it, in my single days I enjoyed sexual contact and had several boyfriends over the years and a handful of flings. Sex is great and I am very frequently the initiator. However there were a couple of times when I was much younger when I changed my mind at the last minute, because I had had a little too much to drink and was getting uncomfortable because I couldn't stop a very negative mental replay of sexual abuse that I had suffered previously and was in therapy for.

 

If either of those guys had decided I had no apparent or 'good' reason to say "no, I changed my mind" and had just pressed on having sex, they would have turned themselves into rapists. It's really not up to the guy to judge whether a reason is good or not, unfair as that might seem at the time, boner in hand.

[You'reasian]

I believe some girls do that ("NO" in the middle) as a ultimate shyt test. If you are the man with options you can pull your d!ck out, put your pants on, calmly walk away and just don't care because you know you can get it from her later or from someone else.

 

Some girls probably do that as Girls Power stunt.

 

Or just to create drama.

 

Or when they are so insecure they want to be sure you gonna stick around sex or no sex.

 

It is not token resistance it is bull shyte and a guy should stop and reconsider his screening process while having a smoke in the kitchen

 

 

Best thing to do: get up, put on your pants and watch some t.v.

[brainygirl]

I've never gone almost all the way and then said stop. I have, when I was much younger and still put up with lots of crap from boys, been out with a boyfriend who really wanted to go park somewhere and have sex when I really wanted to actually see the movie we'd told my parents we were going to see. In one case it turned into a fight and i ended up walking back to town from a lake. In another case we went and did what we had said we were going to do and met up with some other teen agers and had a fin night.

 

As an adult women, I've never initiated sexual contact without the intention of going all the way through with it.

[Green]

This highly controversial theme. I'd like to know your serious opinion not the "safe" one.....Guys capable of date rape will come out with silly excuses for their criminal behavior on their own anyway.

 

My first opinion is that calling it date rape is mislabling it. I would call it acquaintance rape.

 

2nd guys capable or who have date raped a girl are not going to come and post on this board most likely. When it becomes the he said she sais story they will say she wanted it and made up the story the next day or what ever.

 

What examples of Token resistance have you experienced as a guy?

 

I really don't know of this term "Token resistance" but I will try to answer your question anyways.

 

If a girl says something like "I'll come back to your place but we are not having sex" I really don't see any problem with trying to seduce her anyways...

 

I think it gets hazy when you get a woman drunk. The rule of thumb for that IMO is you take a big risk of a he said she said situation about how drunk the girl was if you decide to make a judgment call about that and the girl is unhappy in the morning. If you have been previously and currently in a sexual relationship with a woman I would say go ahead and do it... but things get tricky again if you do something like "anal" that was never done before then you need to use your judgment.

 

As for a long time gf or wife I say you have a lot less worries of raping them short of literaly threatning or overpowering them when they are saying "no" and if they want you to stop while you are already having sex then you should stop. I've had to stop in the midle of sex with my current gf for reasons such as "your pushing on my bladder and I have to go pee" I would never just force her to lay there while I finished and she wanted to stop. That would be a form of relationship rape or what ever you want to call it. Obviously not as seriouse as stranger rape or prison rape... but this kind of thing could still REALLY harm a person especialy if it was the way the relationship continued.

 

Recently I was a witness to a debate between friends...guys and girls. I always thought of Token resistance in terms of 'Girl in high state of arousal, with relaxed expression and body, saying feeble, almost inaudible "no" just prior of penetration." Examples of Token resistance my friends came up with were pretty much more "advanced". And it got me thinking....

 

So, what is your take on that?

 

I say use ur judgment, girls do say no's that are really a yes but at the end of the day just make sure you KNOW and if your not sure stop and ask. For me when I get the token no I wait for a real yes. but even a yes could turn into a date rape situation if you don't use your judgment.

[Pleco]

As for a long time gf or wife I say you have a lot less worries of raping them short of literaly threatning or overpowering them when they are saying "no" and if they want you to stop while you are already having sex then you should stop. I've had to stop in the midle of sex with my current gf for reasons such as "your pushing on my bladder and I have to go pee" I would never just force her to lay there while I finished and she wanted to stop. That would be a form of relationship rape or what ever you want to call it. Obviously not as seriouse as stranger rape or prison rape... but this kind of thing could still REALLY harm a person especialy if it was the way the relationship continued.

This is really interesting. Back when I was on the Depo shot, I had some rare side effects that caused my skin to rip really bad during sex (without getting into the details...) It was really painful. There were some nights where we'd start having sex and I would go rigid and tell him that it hurt, my eyes would water from the pain (dunno if he could tell). He would just keep on going until he got off. Looking back on this, it makes me mad. I was too young and insecure to just tell him no. He says that since I never told him to stop, he thought that it must not hurt that bad. It seems to ME that if he loved me, he would have WANTED to stop - because he knew it was hurting.

 

Sometimes I even would weakly say something like, " John, please..." (as in please STOP). Or I would say "can we please just stop." But I was never forceful about it. And he would just keep pushing through it, I guess because he knew I would eventually get somewhat numb to the pain and let him keep going.

 

Is this completely f*cked up or what? I've brought it up since, but he still says that I was never forceful enough, that it's my fault too because I never really made him stop.

[DanielMadr]

I know there are girls who change their mind at the last minute because they are inexperienced/nervous, or because they suddenly start hearing their mother's/father's/preacher's/rabbi's/imam's voice telling them it's a bad thing to do

I believe this is probably the most common reason.

, or because they are sobering up, or because they are recovering victims of prior sexual molestation or attack and are having a panic attack or something similar. I don't know how all these girls present themselves in such a situation, whether their 'no' or 'I can't' comes out forcefully or weakly...I'd imagine it's different in every situation, depending on how confident the girl is, how sober she is, whether she is feeling paralyzed by fear or just annoyed by something. What I can't imagine is how a man, no matter how raging his boner, can just press through ANY 'token' resistance and completely discount the possibility that he might have just turned into a rapist.

Thinking about Token resistance my biggest worry was that a girl will not actually say or do anything even if she felt horrible. That would be awful.

But I believe I can tell when girl freezes up or is not enjoying it, so it won't happen, I'm sure.

 

was getting uncomfortable because I couldn't stop a very negative mental replay of sexual abuse that I had suffered previously and was in therapy for.

I'm sorry to hear that. You are doing OK, right!?

If either of those guys had decided I had no apparent or 'good' reason to say "no, I changed my mind" and had just pressed on having sex, they would have turned themselves into rapists. It's really not up to the guy to judge whether a reason is good or not, unfair as that might seem at the time, boner in hand.

Absolutely

[brainygirl]

This is really interesting. Back when I was on the Depo shot, I had some rare side effects that caused my skin to rip really bad during sex (without getting into the details...) It was really painful. There were some nights where we'd start having sex and I would go rigid and tell him that it hurt, my eyes would water from the pain (dunno if he could tell). He would just keep on going until he got off. Looking back on this, it makes me mad. I was too young and insecure to just tell him no. He says that since I never told him to stop, he thought that it must not hurt that bad. It seems to ME that if he loved me, he would have WANTED to stop - because he knew it was hurting.

 

Sometimes I even would weakly say something like, " John, please..." (as in please STOP). Or I would say "can we please just stop." But I was never forceful about it. And he would just keep pushing through it, I guess because he knew I would eventually get somewhat numb to the pain and let him keep going.

 

Is this completely f*cked up or what? I've brought it up since, but he still says that I was never forceful enough, that it's my fault too because I never really made him stop.

 

And you are still with him?

 

Oh, that whole situation is wrong. You asked him to stop . . . there shouldn't be a special way to ask. He didn't. That makes it rape.

[DanielMadr]

i ended up walking back to town from a lake.

 

That must have sucked. If only he knew that if he wouldn't have flipped then maybe you two would have a good night. And you wouldn't have your exercise.

 

At least you had time to think, right?

 

Were you two successful the next time? Or was he dumped?

[brainygirl]

That must have sucked. If only he knew that if he wouldn't have flipped then maybe you two would have a good night. And you wouldn't have your exercise.

 

At least you had time to think, right?

 

Were you two successful the next time? Or was he dumped?

 

It was high school, I would have liked to pretend it never happened. He tried to spread some nasty rumors and ended up with my brothers and cousins and a few friends after his ass.

 

The worse part was that I was late getting home and in deep shizky for it.

[DanielMadr]

My first opinion is that calling it date rape is mislabling it. I would call it acquaintance rape.

 

2nd guys capable or who have date raped a girl are not going to come and post on this board most likely. When it becomes the he said she sais story they will say she wanted it and made up the story the next day or what ever.

Yes but I see lot of guys here with great potential for it. Criminology teach us that a rape is most likely to be more about power/hurt ego/pride than about lust. Those bitter and frustrated "nice guys" here might get the wrong idea...just the right idea to justify their "revenge".

In police cases you see it quite often...."Her best friend raped her after his turned down sexual advance." Actually it is worse than when a stranger pervert rapes a girl. "Nice guys" friends after hearing she will call police tend to dispose of their victims.

 

I really don't know of this term "Token resistance" but I will try to answer your question anyways.

 

If a girl says something like "I'll come back to your place but we are not having sex" I really don't see any problem with trying to seduce her anyways...

Yes, because you know she is thinking about it She is just making alibi for Sunday's confession

 

I think it gets hazy when you get a woman drunk. The rule of thumb for that IMO is you take a big risk of a he said she said situation about how drunk the girl was if you decide to make a judgment call about that and the girl is unhappy in the morning. If you have been previously and currently in a sexual relationship with a woman I would say go ahead and do it... but things get tricky again if you do something like "anal" that was never done before then you need to use your judgment.

I would never sleep with drunk girl. I like them sober or at least more sober than drunk.

As for a long time gf or wife I say you have a lot less worries of raping them short of literaly threatning or overpowering them when they are saying "no" and if they want you to stop while you are already having sex then you should stop. I've had to stop in the midle of sex with my current gf for reasons such as "your pushing on my bladder and I have to go pee" I would never just force her to lay there while I finished and she wanted to stop. That would be a form of relationship rape or what ever you want to call it. Obviously not as seriouse as stranger rape or prison rape... but this kind of thing could still REALLY harm a person especialy if it was the way the relationship continued.

Of course. But have you heart of water sports?

 

I say use ur judgment, girls do say no's that are really a yes but at the end of the day just make sure you KNOW and if your not sure stop and ask. For me when I get the token no I wait for a real yes. but even a yes could turn into a date rape situation if you don't use your judgment.

 

You actually make them say 'YES"? You are an animal, man. They must love it. So dominant.

[DanielMadr]

It was high school, I would have liked to pretend it never happened. He tried to spread some nasty rumors and ended up with my brothers and cousins and a few friends after his ass.

 

The worse part was that I was late getting home and in deep shizky for it.

 

Yep I'm a brother too. Some dudes just make my blood boiling. Gonna get me shotgun I guess, when she reaches puberty. It is just hair pulling now.

[Green]

This is really interesting. Back when I was on the Depo shot, I had some rare side effects that caused my skin to rip really bad during sex (without getting into the details...) It was really painful. There were some nights where we'd start having sex and I would go rigid and tell him that it hurt, my eyes would water from the pain (dunno if he could tell). He would just keep on going until he got off. Looking back on this, it makes me mad. I was too young and insecure to just tell him no. He says that since I never told him to stop, he thought that it must not hurt that bad. It seems to ME that if he loved me, he would have WANTED to stop - because he knew it was hurting.

 

Sometimes I even would weakly say something like, " John, please..." (as in please STOP). Or I would say "can we please just stop." But I was never forceful about it. And he would just keep pushing through it, I guess because he knew I would eventually get somewhat numb to the pain and let him keep going.

 

Is this completely f*cked up or what? I've brought it up since, but he still says that I was never forceful enough, that it's my fault too because I never really made him stop.

 

Its a little messed up but if he is your bf who you have been dating and having sex with I think you should have been like "Get off! Get off now! I said right now" because yeah if you arn't clear about it and you guys have been going out for a while I could see him just giving into his hornyness.

 

For me the only way you can rape your wife or your gf that you have previously had a lot of sex with and who you are currently still dating is if the woman is like "No" and says it firm and the guy physicaly over powers her or he threatens her "I'm going to beat the crap out of you if we don't do it now" or he implies a threat by lifting his fist or something.

 

You should talk to him about this if it still goes on. If it was a one time thing I would just forget it if I were you and not let it trouble you

[brainygirl]

Its a little messed up but if he is your bf who you have been dating and having sex with I think you should have been like "Get off! Get off now! I said right now" because yeah if you arn't clear about it and you guys have been going out for a while I could see him just giving into his hornyness.

 

For me the only way you can rape your wife or your gf that you have previously had a lot of sex with and who you are currently still dating is if the woman is like "No" and says it firm and the guy physicaly over powers her or he threatens her "I'm going to beat the crap out of you if we don't do it now" or he implies a threat by lifting his fist or something.

 

You should talk to him about this if it still goes on. If it was a one time thing I would just forget it if I were you and not let it trouble you

 

Coersive rape is still rape. How about if she resists she finds that her car doesn't work or he doesn't help with the kids? That's rape.

 

How about if he does it while she's half asleep and she's saying no and he does it anyway.

 

no is no and just because I've told you yes once, doesn't imply a life time access.

 

I swear some of you guys make me want to swear off men and invest in toys and vibrators.

[Green]

Coersive rape is still rape. How about if she resists she finds that her car doesn't work or he doesn't help with the kids? That's rape.

 

How about if he does it while she's half asleep and she's saying no and he does it anyway.

 

no is no and just because I've told you yes once, doesn't imply a life time access.

 

I swear some of you guys make me want to swear off men and invest in toys and vibrators.

 

Car doesn't work? rape?

 

yes no means no... like I said if a wife says no and you physicaly force her or threaten or hurt her to make her say yes that is wrong.

 

Watch what you say when you quote me because you obviously havn't read my post