SidLyon Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I wrote: ...There is nothing unselfish about him staying with her while having an affair. The whole thing (to me) is utterly disrespectful to both of you. My H at least admitted this to me after d-day and said he knew it all along. His affair lasted many years and somehow he managed to keep the OW convinced to stay. When it came to the crunch though she was the one that he didn't stay with... I guess my MM views that differently than you and your husband then. My MM considers it to be utterly selfish if he would break up his family for his love for me. He has promised to love, care and provide for his wife and their children. He still loves, cares and provides for them. He is fulfilling his vows to the extent he is able to. I agree with you, Owl, that my MM is breaking his vow of forsaking all others. That part he is not keeping. I'm certain your MM views it differently to me. I said there was nothing unselfish about a MM staying with a BW while having an affair. This is not the same as saying it would be the unselfish thing to do to leave his family. In fact it is selfish to have an affair and would also be selfish to break up his family to leave for you (so I do agree with him there). In other words what he has chose to do is selfish on all accounts even to the extent of stringing you along leaving you living in hope that one day he will do the right thing by you. In my opinion an unselfish person would not do either of these things (have an affair or leave their family). My H got himself into an almost identical situation to your MM. Even at d-day he hoped to maintain the status quo. I think the OW may have allowed it too. I asked him to leave if he no longer loved me as I would not be stayed with for the sake of the kids. The kids would have been devastated as I was, but we would have survived. he could have continues to be a good dad to them irrespective of what happened to him and me. Even through my pain I understood I was asking him to choose between 2 women he loved. The only similar thing I can relate to is if I was asked to choose between my children; it would tear me apart. He knew that if he tried to choose us both then I would be gone of my own volition as to stay would have been bad for me. He is a logical and methodical guy so I guess he weighed up what was important to him and then made his choice (lucky guy to get to make such a choice ). I didn't force him to choose me, but I did force a choice. His selfishness was what got us all into this mess. It annoys me when I see OW on this forum trying to blame the fact that the MM often have to make a choice on d-day, on the poor BW. Personally I'd like to see more OW force the situation before a d-day; but I guess it's not gonna happen soon.
GreenEyedLady Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Wow. Now I've heard everything. It's altruistic to be in an A. I'm shaking my head here. That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Denial doesn't get any plainer than that folks. And if you can't take it, don't dish it out. GEL
Author White Flower Posted June 7, 2010 Author Posted June 7, 2010 I'm confused. Did somebody say it was altruistic to be in an A?
Silly_Girl Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Personally I'd like to see more OW force the situation before a d-day; but I guess it's not gonna happen soon. I did, that's why I'm on here a-blubbing and a-whining Have no plans to tell the BS so there'll be no Dday. Actually, I think she SHOULD know, I am almost obssessive about honesty within relationships, but it's not my relationship and so not my place.
SidLyon Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I'm confused. Did somebody say it was altruistic to be in an A? I think these 2 comments by Jennie may have prompted the assumption, that Jennie thinks there is something altruistic about her MM having an affair. My MM loves his wife altruistically. Is he then keeping that part of his wedding vow although he has a new primary partner when it comes to romance and sex?Once your partner is no longer your object of desire, or even worse once he/she has been replaced by another object for your desire, is that not when selfish love has either turned into altruistic love or died?To be honest I get the same impression (that Jennie sees something altruistic in what her MM is doing to his wife - ie staying with her while having an affair with Jennie) although Jennie may not have directly said it.
jthorne Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Just to be fair, I believe it is the renowned auther and expert on love, Alberoni, who coined the term altruistic love, not jennie-jennie's MM.I didn't say it was her term, and that's fine and dandy. To believe the arguement, you have to believe Alberoni's theory, which I do not.
jennie-jennie Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I didn't say it was her term, and that's fine and dandy. To believe the arguement, you have to believe Alberoni's theory, which I do not. And you read his books? I just love how people on LS are so quick to renounce what they have not even read.
jennie-jennie Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 (edited) I'm confused. Did somebody say it was altruistic to be in an A? I think these 2 comments by Jennie may have prompted the assumption, that Jennie thinks there is something altruistic about her MM having an affair. My MM loves his wife altruistically. Is he then keeping that part of his wedding vow although he has a new primary partner when it comes to romance and sex?Once your partner is no longer your object of desire, or even worse once he/she has been replaced by another object for your desire, is that not when selfish love has either turned into altruistic love or died?To be honest I get the same impression (that Jennie sees something altruistic in what her MM is doing to his wife - ie staying with her while having an affair with Jennie) although Jennie may not have directly said it. There is an immense difference between considering a MM staying with his wife of altruistic reasons and a MM having an affair of altruistic reasons. My MM is clear on that he is not leaving me. The question then becomes whether he should leave his wife or not. He chooses because of altruistic reasons to stay with his wife. He considers this to be the least harm he can inflict to his family, although he realizes that both options will bring along harm. As I said before, he loves, cares and provides for his wife and family. He can not see how taking this away from them will make things better. The environment at home is still sound. Edited June 7, 2010 by jennie-jennie
jthorne Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 And you read his books? I just love how people on LS are so quick to renounce what they have not even read. And I just love how you are so quick to assume I know nothing about it! Though I received my degree in Psychology 17 years ago, I am familiar with Alberoni's work. Even if I was not, it has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread. If Alberoni works for you, fine. It doesn't for me.
Author White Flower Posted June 7, 2010 Author Posted June 7, 2010 I think these 2 comments by Jennie may have prompted the assumption, that Jennie thinks there is something altruistic about her MM having an affair. My MM loves his wife altruistically. Is he then keeping that part of his wedding vow although he has a new primary partner when it comes to romance and sex?Once your partner is no longer your object of desire, or even worse once he/she has been replaced by another object for your desire, is that not when selfish love has either turned into altruistic love or died?To be honest I get the same impression (that Jennie sees something altruistic in what her MM is doing to his wife - ie staying with her while having an affair with Jennie) although Jennie may not have directly said it. I see, so you didn't exactly say that MM have As for altruistic reasons. Gotchya. There is an immense difference between considering a MM staying with his wife of altruistic reasons and a MM having an affair of altruistic reasons. My MM is clear on that he is not leaving me. The question then becomes whether he should leave his wife or not. He chooses because of altruistic reasons to stay with his wife. He considers this to be the least harm he can inflict to his family, although he realizes that both options will bring along harm. As I said before, he loves, cares and provides for his wife and family. He can not see how taking this away from them will make things better. The environment at home is still sound. Is this what settling looks like? Is understanding altruism the same as settling? I'm not speaking for jennie-jennie but I'm not so sure she is settling. From the outside it appears that she is learning all that she can on the matter before making informed decisions herself. In the meantime, she is getting all her needs fulfilled, if I'm not being presumptuous.
pureinheart Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Is understanding altruism the same as settling? (QUOTE from NID) I'm not speaking for jennie-jennie but I'm not so sure she is settling. From the outside it appears that she is learning all that she can on the matter before making informed decisions herself. In the meantime, she is getting all her needs fulfilled, if I'm not being presumptuous. Same here WF, not speaking for jennie either, although agree.
reboot Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Someday a thread will go beyond 3 pages and not turn into mindless bickering. Someday.
silktricks Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 First - I'd like to say that I have read some (not all, but some) of Alberoni's information. I cannot say that I agree with him... Now, that said, I'd also like to say that I do not understand why someone would reject the idea of altruism being a part of love. I would certainly want my spouse to be altruistic towards me, as I am towards him. The presence of altruism does not in any way reduce the level of passion a person may ALSO feel for their mate. http://www.livescience.com/health/060209_love_altruism.html This link was IMO a piece of information I enjoyed reading on the subject of altruism.
jthorne Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Religion is the opium of the people. I too am an atheist. Total tj, but isn't it interesting that most of the unapologetic OW on this board are athiest? Jennie, Lila, OWoman if I'm not mistaken? Just an interesting observation... I'm not speaking for jennie-jennie but I'm not so sure she is settling. From the outside it appears that she is learning all that she can on the matter before making informed decisions herself. In the meantime, she is getting all her needs fulfilled, if I'm not being presumptuous. I didn't think Jennie wasn't saying she is being altruistic or settling. She implied that her MM thinks he is being altruistic. She posted that her MM thinks it would be selfish of him to break up his family because he is in love with someone else: My MM considers it to be utterly selfish if he would break up his family for his love for me. He has promised to love, care and provide for his wife and their children. He still loves, cares and provides for them. He is fulfilling his vows to the extent he is able to. I agree with you, Owl, that my MM is breaking his vow of forsaking all others. That part he is not keeping.I replied that I thought it was selfish of him to not let his wife know he was in love with someone else. Instead, he's twisted it into being altruistic by staying in his marriage. I don't have a dog in this fight, I was just pointing out the contradiction. I imagine if his wife knew he was in love with someone else, she wouldn't think he is doing her any great big favor by staying with her while cheating. Just a guess.
Author White Flower Posted June 7, 2010 Author Posted June 7, 2010 Someday a thread will go beyond 3 pages and not turn into mindless bickering. Someday. I agree Reebs. We should be moderators. I'll take the day shift, you the night.
Author White Flower Posted June 7, 2010 Author Posted June 7, 2010 First - I'd like to say that I have read some (not all, but some) of Alberoni's information. I cannot say that I agree with him... Now, that said, I'd also like to say that I do not understand why someone would reject the idea of altruism being a part of love. I would certainly want my spouse to be altruistic towards me, as I am towards him. The presence of altruism does not in any way reduce the level of passion a person may ALSO feel for their mate. http://www.livescience.com/health/060209_love_altruism.html This link was IMO a piece of information I enjoyed reading on the subject of altruism. I agree with a lot of Alberoni's theories as well but not all. He makes a lot of sense a lot of the time. I also agree about altruism being a normal part of love. I just don't agree (and you might also) that having only an altruistic love toward your spouse is not enough to stay in the M IMHO. If I can't have all the other aspects of love, I'm not letting him stay for altruistic reasons only. I would feel pathetic under those circumstances if I knew about it.
Author White Flower Posted June 7, 2010 Author Posted June 7, 2010 First - I'd like to say that I have read some (not all, but some) of Alberoni's information. I cannot say that I agree with him... Now, that said, I'd also like to say that I do not understand why someone would reject the idea of altruism being a part of love. I would certainly want my spouse to be altruistic towards me, as I am towards him. The presence of altruism does not in any way reduce the level of passion a person may ALSO feel for their mate. http://www.livescience.com/health/060209_love_altruism.html This link was IMO a piece of information I enjoyed reading on the subject of altruism. Just read the article BTW and found it very interesting. It not only discusses altruism toward each other as a couple but also being altruistic outside the M. I particularly enjoyed the stats on empathy and the implication that men tend to be more altruistic with an underlying belief that men tend to be more heroic. Thanks for the link silktricks!
2sure Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Can love be promised? Look, I havent read the book, seen the movie, or even scanned the entire thread BUT, lol: I think when one promises another love as in marriage, there are many many many events and circumstances both expected and unforeseen than we ideally are promising to hang in there for. And one of them may include periods of crisis, distance, not feeling in love, lack of passion...ect. I really do think that when you make a promise upon marriage that you are basically saying...I promise to love you even if I dont. Now, I'm sure not going to say someone should settle, or stay in a bad marriage...I'm on Divorce #3. Thats taught me something. Marriage, commitment, promises are HARD. No harder than life, they are life. The deal is that you are promising to make it through the tough stuff without killing each other in the hope of the bad period ending (with work from both) and a new period of in love being able to begin. A lot of times, we just dont wait it out. OR, think to ourselves I'm staying for the kids, for the money, for the dogs, logistics. The logistics ARE a motivation to stay through the bad crap. But unless you WANT to love your partner again...you wont. So, can love be promised? I still love my H just as I promised , always will. Divorce is final in august.
jennie-jennie Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 And I just love how you are so quick to assume I know nothing about it! Though I received my degree in Psychology 17 years ago, I am familiar with Alberoni's work. Even if I was not, it has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread. If Alberoni works for you, fine. It doesn't for me. I would be interested in knowing what outlook on infidelity (except your own homemade) works for you. Do you not have anywhere you get inspiration from? I mean if you studied psychology and all, you must have found inspiration somewhere other than LS?
jennie-jennie Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Total tj, but isn't it interesting that most of the unapologetic OW on this board are athiest? Jennie, Lila, OWoman if I'm not mistaken? Just an interesting observation... Except I used to be religious. I have just lost my faith during the hardships of my life. But unapologetic I have always been. That is part of my nature whatever I indulge in.
jennie-jennie Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Is this what settling looks like? It seems to be more people than me who are wondering who you are referring to in this question. The MM? The BS? The OW?
jennie-jennie Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Is understanding altruism the same as settling? I'm not speaking for jennie-jennie but I'm not so sure she is settling. From the outside it appears that she is learning all that she can on the matter before making informed decisions herself. In the meantime, she is getting all her needs fulfilled, if I'm not being presumptuous. I couldn't have said it better myself. :bunny:
SidLyon Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I see, so you didn't exactly say that MM have As for altruistic reasons. Gotchya. ... Err no Whiteflower, not even close. I think somebody else might have though.
NoIDidn't Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 It seems to be more people than me who are wondering who you are referring to in this question. The MM? The BS? The OW? Sorry. I had to get out of the house and at least wanted to ask the question. The BS is not settling in a situation they are not completely informed or aware of, so of course, I wasn't asking that about the BS. It appears to me that the MM and OW are the ones settling since one is willing to accept so little, and the other claims to be staying in a situation for less than altruistic reasons. I'm sure you disagree with that assessment because of your personal circumstances, but this discussion isn't just about you or your MM.
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