Can love be promised?

[pureinheart]

Aw yes, don't remind me that I become very argumentative while under the influence of antibiotics. And those were taken for internal bleeding after a very stressful D-day. I was kinda bitchy.

 

 

We love Reebs and Owl! I miss Lakey and Stampy too. Somebody call in Joe and Boldjack.

 

 

 

I have seen reactions in myself before and then when you mentioned it in a previos thread, that was total confimation...I'm glad you took what I said the way it was meant and not the way it could have sounded:D. Internal bleeding? Oh man, hope your ok now...

 

Also wanted to include the rest of the guys...it was just reboot that posted...but love all you guys...Chris, JW, and the ones you mentioned, Car Hill...ummmmthere are many great guys that post in this forum!

 

 

This issue is huge with me. I see MM fulfill a duty daily with his W and it frustrates me. I would NEVER want his love delivered on the note of duty, yet I'm sure even he gets some kind of reward in delivering it that way. He gets the pat on the back by both staying M and by fulfilling daily responsibilities being the altruistic H, etc., but if she KNEW the love was altruistic only she may not want it (even though I think she pretty much demands it, but that's another thread)*.

 

 

*I am told that it is stated at his house how 'the state of M should be' and what is expected of a H and W. These are expected duties in that home. I understand that we all have domestic expectations, but ultimately staying M as a duty would not be my cup of tea. That is to say, I would hate for him to feel obligated to stay if he didn't love me.

 

WF, this is the very thing that broke my heart with MM now exDM...as this is just a freaking game and a waste of life. I think all of us have tried to amke people do things, at least I have...when I "got" what I wanted and saw how fake it was, I no longer wanted it and felt extremely stupid.

 

Just a thought...it might be nice to post our general age and experience such as first, second M, etc., to get an idea of where peoples perspectives are coming from. I know those of us in 40s to 50s feel very differently about love than more idealistic beliefs of someone in their 20s and 30s. It's all relative.

 

The big 50....lol...I'm loosing 20lbs and 20 years...all in one day ....lol...no, the last couple of years have been taxing, but am on the uphill swing now:)

 

I think this is a great idea....one major reason is one of the ladies had made a comment about being upset about way older men with really young girls that were M'ed (the men were M'ed)....and that these girls are waisting their lives when they could be having families....she had a very valid concern IMO....anyway this would cause personal sitiations to be a bit more clear:)

 

If anything I've posted makes no sense, I am on ANTIBIOTICS....lol....

[Myowntwofeet]

I am in my mid 50s. I did not marry until my late 30s. My kids are teenagers. As a child of the 60s and 70s I went through the "if it feels good - do it" era.

 

I had 2 long term "live-in" relationships before, and a few boyfriends.

 

I doubt anyone would describe me as young and idealistic.

 

Just catching up. Syd, I did miss you and it is good to see you.

 

I think I agree with you, I will also always love my XMM ( I don't have to be with him to love him) so I completly get what you are saying - but I wonder if Jennie means the love will become platonic at some point.\

 

As I said, I can tell you I will always love him. I don't love easily and have only loved one other man, whom to this day I occasionally talk to and yes, still love BUT I would not have an intimate relationship with him.

 

So, to pose the question - should your relationship end with your husband by choice, I clearly understand how you can say without doubt you will love him always, but I am not sure you can say without doubt you will always romantically love him.

 

I think it would be difficult to say you are certain you would always want to be intimate, kiss/hug/feel.

 

I could be wrong but thinking maybe it is the way things are being said and that you are actually more inline with the same feelings.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't make any distinction between loving someone and being "in love". I accept it's possible therefore that I could come to love another man, however that will be by my own choice it will not be something beyond my control. That won't change that I will continue to love my husband. Because of his betrayal I've had to accept that our marriage may not go on forever. Maybe he will no longer love me or move onto someone else.

 

I accept your outlook on love is different to mine. There is no need for you to tell me that I cannot promise love because that isn't true, I already have. I accept that you feel unable to promise love (because you have often said so). Why do you not accept that I can?

 

Anybody can promise love. The question is if it is a realistic thing to promise.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't make any distinction between loving someone and being "in love". I accept it's possible therefore that I could come to love another man, however that will be by my own choice it will not be something beyond my control. That won't change that I will continue to love my husband. Because of his betrayal I've had to accept that our marriage may not go on forever. Maybe he will no longer love me or move onto someone else.

 

But wouldn't the love you feel for your husband have changed character if you fell in love/allowed yourself to fall in love with another man? Would it not now be altruistic love you were feeling for your husband? Is that kind of love enough for you to consider yourself having fulfilled your promises to love him forever?

 

I am truly interested in your answers to these questions. This thread has made me realize that depending on whether it is altruistic love or selfish love you are promising, a promise makes more or less sense. The question then becomes what are we actually promising when we get married?

 

My MM loves his wife altruistically. Is he then keeping that part of his wedding vow although he has a new primary partner when it comes to romance and sex?

[SidLyon]

Anybody can promise love. The question is if it is a realistic thing to promise.

 

Why the need to resort to sarcasm Jennie (use of rolling eyes and sarcastic face), just because not everyone agrees with you?

 

Your argument until now has been that it is simply not possible to promise to love someone in the future, now you are saying it is possible after all, just not realistic. I disagree completely with you telling others what it is possible/realistic for them to promise.

[jennie-jennie]

I accept your outlook on love is different to mine. There is no need for you to tell me that I cannot promise love because that isn't true, I already have. I accept that you feel unable to promise love (because you have often said so). Why do you not accept that I can?

 

I can accept that you feel able to promise love.

 

This thread is a discussion about whether you actually can promise love or not. You can not expect me to accept that you can promise selfish love, when my belief is that nobody can. I can accept that you believe that you can, but not that you can.

[TaraMaiden]

I entirely agree, Jennie....

This is why I truly believe Marriage is an impossible contract.

Is anybody the completely same person they were 15 years ago?

have your tastes, ideals, objectives, opinions and views changed?

What on earth makes anybody think that whatever you promise now, willbe a keepable, in 10 years form now?

Nothing, but nothing is certain, apart form death and taxes.

I solemnly promise you all, one day I shall die.

but that all I can say with a 100% degree of certainty.

Sure, you can promise the moon.

getting it is another matter.

[jennie-jennie]

Why the need to resort to sarcasm Jennie (use of rolling eyes and sarcastic face), just because not everyone agrees with you?

 

Your argument until now has been that it is simply not possible to promise to love someone in the future, now you are saying it is possible after all, just not realistic. I disagree completely with you telling others what it is possible/realistic for them to promise.

 

If you look at my replies earlier in this thread, you will see that during this discussion I have refined my ideas about promising love. This is not something I just put up there now.

 

I very, very seldom use the rolling eyes smiley. This time I found there was a reason to.

 

If I can not state my beliefs about whether or not it is possible/realistic to promise love, how then can I participate in this discussion?

[jennie-jennie]

There are plenty of things my H can do to end our marital relationship including some of the things you mention. That won't end all relationships with each other as we share children and other family.

 

Like you I need love so if I don't sense the love from him then I will reluctantly end the relationship. It won't change that I love him but will change the nature of the relationship. It's entirely possible that like J-J he will find that he was unable to promise love. I accept that many (maybe even most) are like that. I am just saying that's not the case for me.

 

By the way I don't consider it a bad thing that people can't promise to love forever. It has it's own drawbacks. So to answer your question it does seem possible that love can be killed.

What I object to is somebody telling other people that their own experience of this (not being able to promise future love) is universal.

 

I am not at all religious but I think the Christian view of their god is that he promises eternal love? So presumably Christians at least can relate to the idea that future love can be promised. Forgive me for speaking for them as I'm an atheist myself.

 

Actually it is not so much my own experience I am drawing from when saying that you can not promise love, but the teachings of Francesco Alberoni, professor in sociology and psychology, who has written many notable books about the nature of love. He is also the one who distinguishes between altruistic love and selfish love.

 

I have read many of his books and find them very useful in understanding love.

[jennie-jennie]

Why the need to resort to sarcasm Jennie (use of rolling eyes and sarcastic face), just because not everyone agrees with you?

 

Your argument until now has been that it is simply not possible to promise to love someone in the future, now you are saying it is possible after all, just not realistic. I disagree completely with you telling others what it is possible/realistic for them to promise.

 

OK, I reread this. That is the explanation for the rolling eyes, that of course anybody can promise anything. To say that one couldn't is stupid.

 

The question is if it is realistic to promise something which is not within your own control to keep. I guess it boils down to whether or not you can promise emotions.

[jennie-jennie]

Just a thought...it might be nice to post our general age and experience such as first, second M, etc., to get an idea of where peoples perspectives are coming from. I know those of us in 40s to 50s feel very differently about love than more idealistic beliefs of someone in their 20s and 30s. It's all relative.

 

I am in my early 50s. I have two long term common-law marriages behind me, one of 5 years, one of 26 years. Teenage and adult children. Presently in a long term extramarital relationship with my MM, going on its fifth year. As usual when I am in a relationship, I don't see an end to it. (But being realistic, I now there might be.)

[jennie-jennie]

Just catching up. Syd, I did miss you and it is good to see you.

 

I think I agree with you, I will also always love my XMM ( I don't have to be with him to love him) so I completly get what you are saying - but I wonder if Jennie means the love will become platonic at some point.\

 

As I said, I can tell you I will always love him. I don't love easily and have only loved one other man, whom to this day I occasionally talk to and yes, still love BUT I would not have an intimate relationship with him.

 

So, to pose the question - should your relationship end with your husband by choice, I clearly understand how you can say without doubt you will love him always, but I am not sure you can say without doubt you will always romantically love him.

 

I think it would be difficult to say you are certain you would always want to be intimate, kiss/hug/feel.

 

I could be wrong but thinking maybe it is the way things are being said and that you are actually more inline with the same feelings.

 

MOTF, this is exactly my experience and opinion. Thanks for clarifying.

[SidLyon]

OK, I reread this. That is the explanation for the rolling eyes, that of course anybody can promise anything. To say that one couldn't is stupid.

 

The question is if it is realistic to promise something which is not within your own control to keep. I guess it boils down to whether or not you can promise emotions.

 

Roll away Jennie but I still maintain that it is within my control to keep my promise.

 

I know we have some staunch Christians on this forum so what do they have to say? I hesitate to speak for them but I get the impression that the Christan faith does allow for promising love. As I recall it is part of the Christian wedding vows.

 

While I am not Christian myself it is nevertheless one of the great philosophies of the modern world and many of the morals, ethics and principles of many secular societies are based on underlying Christian principles. That includes Sweden and the USA I believe. Alberoni and Emily Brown don't deserve blind adherence any more than some religious figures in my view. To an atheist such as myself, you citing them is not a lot different to those who cite a god as their authority. No offence meant to followers of any of these.

[jennie-jennie]

I saw this movie yesterday where the forensics doctor pointed out the place in the brain where love is situated as being where desire and association meet. I interpret this as selfish love.

 

Once your partner is no longer your object of desire, or even worse once he/she has been replaced by another object for your desire, is that not when selfish love has either turned into altruistic love or died?

[jennie-jennie]

Roll away Jennie but I still maintain that it is within my control to keep my promise.

 

I know we have some staunch Christians on this forum so what do they have to say? I hesitate to speak for them but I get the impression that the Christan faith does allow for promising love. As I recall it is part of the Christian wedding vows.

 

While I am not Christian myself it is nevertheless one of the great philosophies of the modern world and many of the morals, ethics and principles of many secular societies are based on underlying Christian principles. That includes Sweden and the USA I believe. Alberoni and Emily Brown don't deserve blind adherence any more than some religious figures in my view. To an atheist such as myself, you citing them is not a lot different to those who cite a god as their authority. No offence meant to followers of any of these.

 

Religion is the opium of the people. I too am an atheist.

 

Merely the fact that I quote several authors would imply to you that I do not blindly adhere to any one perspective. Certainly not Emily Brown since she too is pro marriage in my opinion, although not as much as most authors on infidelity.

[SidLyon]

Sid, I would still appreciate if you answered the above questions, since I feel it would contribute to the discussion of this thread.

 

Originally Posted by jennie-jennie

But wouldn't the love you feel for your husband have changed character if you fell in love/allowed yourself to fall in love with another man? Would it not now be altruistic love you were feeling for your husband? Is that kind of love enough for you to consider yourself having fulfilled your promises to love him forever?

Forever is perhaps too strong a word - as long as we both live is probably better.

Loving someone other than my H would be a choice I would make, not something I just fell into. So if I am going to keep my promise of love to him then I will not allow myself to love another man in that way. Hypothetically if I decide to break my promise then it will be a promise I have chosen to break. If my H died or left me, then of course I might love another man without ever having broken my promise.

I am truly interested in your answers to these questions. This thread has made me realize that depending on whether it is altruistic love or selfish love you are promising, a promise makes more or less sense. The question then becomes what are we actually promising when we get married?

 

My MM loves his wife altruistically. Is he then keeping that part of his wedding vow although he has a new primary partner when it comes to romance and sex?

I can't really be expected to answer for him but it looks to me as though he's breaking his wedding promises. Trying to define his love for her as altruistic and for you as selfish does nothing for me. It just looks like a rather weak excuse/rationalization for having an affair. There is nothing unselfish about him staying with her while having an affair. The whole thing (to me) is utterly disrespectful to both of you. My H at least admitted this to me after d-day and said he knew it all along. His affair lasted many years and somehow he managed to keep the OW convinced to stay. When it came to the crunch though she was the one that he didn't stay with.

[Owl]

Exactly.

 

Part of my promise to my wife included "forsaking all others".

 

For me...that also meant not letting anyone else take her place in my heart. Not giving them the chance to develop that level of relationship with me.

 

I know we've talked about the whole "choose who you love" thing repeatedly here, but this ties into the question from my perspective.

 

I don't allow a relationship with anyone else 'grow'...I recognize the symptoms of being attracted to someone else, and take active measures to PREVENT that attraction from growing into an obsession, or love.

[jennie-jennie]

I can't really be expected to answer for him but it looks to me as though he's breaking his wedding promises. Trying to define his love for her as altruistic and for you as selfish does nothing for me. It just looks like a rather weak excuse/rationalization for having an affair. There is nothing unselfish about him staying with her while having an affair. The whole thing (to me) is utterly disrespectful to both of you. My H at least admitted this to me after d-day and said he knew it all along. His affair lasted many years and somehow he managed to keep the OW convinced to stay. When it came to the crunch though she was the one that he didn't stay with.

 

I guess my MM views that differently than you and your husband then.

 

My MM considers it to be utterly selfish if he would break up his family for his love for me. He has promised to love, care and provide for his wife and their children. He still loves, cares and provides for them. He is fulfilling his vows to the extent he is able to.

 

Exactly.

 

Part of my promise to my wife included "forsaking all others".

 

For me...that also meant not letting anyone else take her place in my heart. Not giving them the chance to develop that level of relationship with me.

 

I know we've talked about the whole "choose who you love" thing repeatedly here, but this ties into the question from my perspective.

 

I don't allow a relationship with anyone else 'grow'...I recognize the symptoms of being attracted to someone else, and take active measures to PREVENT that attraction from growing into an obsession, or love.

 

I agree with you, Owl, that my MM is breaking his vow of forsaking all others. That part he is not keeping.

[jthorne]

My MM considers it to be utterly selfish if he would break up his family for his love for me. He has promised to love, care and provide for his wife and their children. He still loves, cares and provides for them. He is fulfilling his vows to the extent he is able to.

 

I agree with you, Owl, that my MM is breaking his vow of forsaking all others. That part he is not keeping.

But isn't he being more selfish by not telling his wife he loves another? Isn't it more selfish of him to decide his wife's fate for her?

 

Seems to me that if he was being altruistic, he'd let his wife decide her own fate. But since he's not completely altruistic, he has to be getting something out of the relationship, other than just satisfaction of fulfilling his duty.

 

You are right, this type of behavior is selfish. Wanting two people is inherently selfish. But he's managed to twist it around to sound altruistic. Interesting.

[delirious]

Exactly.

 

Part of my promise to my wife included "forsaking all others".

 

For me...that also meant not letting anyone else take her place in my heart. Not giving them the chance to develop that level of relationship with me.

 

I know we've talked about the whole "choose who you love" thing repeatedly here, but this ties into the question from my perspective.

 

I don't allow a relationship with anyone else 'grow'...I recognize the symptoms of being attracted to someone else, and take active measures to PREVENT that attraction from growing into an obsession, or love.

 

But what you are saying Owl, is 'I promise to try not to fall in love with someone else', you are not saying that you can promise to love your wife. That is different.

You can promise to not to put yourself in the position of loving someone else. However, if the person you love does things or does not do things that make you not want to love them any more, then you may be much more vulnerable to falling for someone else. Love is a human need. No one is happy without love in some form.

You can promise to work at your love, but not promise to love someone for ever. You love with your heart not your head. A promise is made in the mind and is mostly just words or a piece of paper. Feelings of love can be totally overwhelming for some so promises go out of the window. Not everyone is in such control of their emotions as you appear to be or convince yourself you are.

[jennie-jennie]

But what you are saying Owl, is 'I promise to try not to fall in love with someone else', you are not saying that you can promise to love your wife. That is different.

You can promise to not to put yourself in the position of loving someone else. However, if the person you love does things or does not do things that make you not want to love them any more, then you may be much more vulnerable to falling for someone else. Love is a human need. No one is happy without love in some form.

You can promise to work at your love, but not promise to love someone for ever. You love with your heart not your head. A promise is made in the mind and is mostly just words or a piece of paper. Feelings of love can be totally overwhelming for some so promises go out of the window. Not everyone is in such control of their emotions as you appear to be or convince yourself you are.

 

This is exactly what happened with my exSOs. Because they no longer sufficiently met my needs, I became open to loving someone else. Had our relationship(s) continued to fulfill my needs, I had not become available to love another.

 

And I had tried for years to make them listen. They were secure in that I would stay and thus found no need to change their ways until it was too late.

[White Flower]

But wouldn't the love you feel for your husband have changed character if you fell in love/allowed yourself to fall in love with another man? Would it not now be altruistic love you were feeling for your husband? Is that kind of love enough for you to consider yourself having fulfilled your promises to love him forever?

 

I am truly interested in your answers to these questions. This thread has made me realize that depending on whether it is altruistic love or selfish love you are promising, a promise makes more or less sense. The question then becomes what are we actually promising when we get married?

 

My MM loves his wife altruistically. Is he then keeping that part of his wedding vow although he has a new primary partner when it comes to romance and sex?

This is what it boils down to isn't it? We promise to love altruistically if and when our romantic feelings fade and I am not necessarily including chemistry in that.

 

Yet, being older (I'm in my 40s and very self-aware) I do feel that if nurtured as things are now, I feel that I can deliver on a promise to keep the chemical and romantic love alive as well.

[White Flower]

I am in my early 50s. I have two long term common-law marriages behind me, one of 5 years, one of 26 years. Teenage and adult children. Presently in a long term extramarital relationship with my MM, going on its fifth year. As usual when I am in a relationship, I don't see an end to it. (But being realistic, I now there might be.)

Kinda similar sitch for me...late 40s, long-term M of 25 years, now D'd, Teenage and adult children and presently in a long-term R with MM going on its fifth year. Too much in common. And I love books on love and psychology!

 

I too believe in the long-term relationship. I was very dismayed when I realized my ex no longer wanted to nurture it and keep it alive because there is no way one person can keep a R alive. That is the basis of starting this thread.

[White Flower]

I saw this movie yesterday where the forensics doctor pointed out the place in the brain where love is situated as being where desire and association meet. I interpret this as selfish love.

 

Once your partner is no longer your object of desire, or even worse once he/she has been replaced by another object for your desire, is that not when selfish love has either turned into altruistic love or died?

I think I can agree with this transformation from one kind of love to another.

[White Flower]

But isn't he being more selfish by not telling his wife he loves another? Isn't it more selfish of him to decide his wife's fate for her?

 

Seems to me that if he was being altruistic, he'd let his wife decide her own fate. But since he's not completely altruistic, he has to be getting something out of the relationship, other than just satisfaction of fulfilling his duty.

 

You are right, this type of behavior is selfish. Wanting two people is inherently selfish. But he's managed to twist it around to sound altruistic. Interesting.

Just to be fair, I believe it is the renowned auther and expert on love, Alberoni, who coined the term altruistic love, not jennie-jennie's MM.