jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Ok, I was really tired when I posted, but what I mean is really a combination of things already posted. When I get married, I will promise my love to my spouse forever. And I will give it willingly and freely, in sickness and in health, blah blah blah. I won't just bail on him when he stops meeting my needs. At that point, it would be up to us to work on those things together. However, if conditions drastically changed, it's up to me to have enough integrity to speak up. It is not appropriate for me to promise my love forever, but decide I no longer love him and then not tell him I intend to break my promise. I agree with you on the above, and that is also how I choose to conduct my love relationships. However, my MM is not conducting his marriage in this manner. He no longer holds any romantic love interest for his wife, but apparently the love he still feels for her is enough to keep him in the marriage. He has promised to love her forever, and he does still love her, but he is not in love with her, is it then right or wrong to stay to fulfill your promise? He can't make himself be in love with her instead of in love with me, but he does still love her. Is that enough to say that you are fulfilling your promise of love?
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 I also DO believe we can choose who we fall in love with. To fall in love, IN MY VIEW, you must KNOW the person, trust the person, etc., so we most definitely can chose who we fall in love with because love takes time, it takes work and it needs nurturing. So you have never fallen in love at first sight then? I have, and it was a very, very powerful experience. Unfortunately the object of my affection turned out to have severe alcohol problems, so our love relationship did not last more than a month, but we remained dear friends until his premature death at 35. I am still certain that he was a soul mate of mine, we were so compatible, I just could not endure his alcoholism.
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 I have read only the first post in this thread so I don't know what everyone else has said. Yes, for me future love can be promised. For example I know I will always love my children. The same with romantic partners. I have been in love several times but only made the future love promise to one person (the one I married). He betrayed me abysmally yet I still love him and will continue to do so irrespective of what happens to our relationship. I accept that other posters know that they themselves cannot make such a promise, but I object to those that shout (using capitals when in writing) to someone else, that future love cannot be promised. For me it can be. Sid So far your experiences in life have coincided with your promise of love. If you fall out of love with your husband and in love with another man, you will learn that for you too love can not be promised, it is out of your control. Most probably your husband still meets enough of your needs for you to still be in love with him, and this might also be the case for the rest of your life time. Let's hope so.
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 When I was in my first long term relationship, I felt that our love would last forever, that I would love my SO forever. I was not lying when I told him that. Little could I see into the future, where he would get irrevocably mentally ill (schizophrenia), and it would threaten my own mental health and stability, and my only alternative to salvage myself would be to leave him. His illness killed my love for him, his illness killed our future, his illness made any promise of love worth nothing.
silktricks Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 (edited) Love CAN die and does...when a person is continually mistreated "the love" they once felt is now tainted. Love can die. And it can be killed - by either party. I told my husband once that I would love him forever, and that only one person could ever make me fall out of love with him - and that one person was him. That said - I do believe you can promise to love forever. Though the "in love" feelings of excitement and lust can wax and wane through the years, I do believe/know that I can promise to always love - with the one caveat above - that my love isn't destroyed by the actions of the object of that love. Edited June 5, 2010 by silktricks
Author White Flower Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 Sorry, I'd carried over the context of the original question from previous threads. In truth, there isn't a person in the world who can promise ANYTHING about the future, not even if it's 5 seconds from the moment the promise is made. There's too many variables outside of anyone's control to TRULY promise much of anything. I could promise to be with my wife forever...and then get hit by a beer truck as I crossed the street. But...the idea of promising to jointly renegotiate if the situation changes is a good one...if everyone stuck to it. Gotchya on the other threads--I hadn't read all of them. I love the bolded part and wish everyone could abide by that notion.
Author White Flower Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 Your MM has been married for 40 years? Wow!! How old is he like over 60? For some reason I pictured a 30 something year old. I bet there is love there weather you want to believe it or not. Maybe he's not inlove with her but no doubt he loves her. She is the mother of his kids and after 40 years of marriage he has not left her. LOL, you probably pictured MM at age 30 because I've boasted his many talents over these boards. He's all that and a bag of potato chips but I won't go on about that. I believe the love he has, if any, for his W is an altruistic one. He cares genuinely for her and respects her a great deal. Just because someone stays doesn't not mean they love that person; sometimes it means they love themselves (are selfish) and are fearful of giving up their comfort zone. But this thread will go off topic if we delve into that subject. I believe he's been true in his promise to stay M, but not in his promise to love her.
Author White Flower Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 So to answer the OP's question, I can with pretty much certainty promise to hold altruistic love for an SO for the rest of my life, but altruistic love is not enough for me to want to stay in a relationship. The selfish love which is necessary for me to want to stay in a relationship with a man can only be given to one man at a time, so when the object for that love has changed, I am gone. This kind of love can not be promised. This is the kind of love which makes me desire a man. Without desire I am not interested in having a relationship. Without desire it is friendship not a relationship in my opinion. Jennie-jennie you are self-aware and are very honest on your stance on love. I do believe that many stay M out of altruistic reasons and not ones of love. Further, I believe men tend to observe this choice whereas women tend to seek true love. It pleases me immensely when I see people be honest with themselves and everyone in their lives and follow their hearts.
Author White Flower Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 I am reminded of what we shared prior to the steroids and I get fluttery and giddy...then I think about what happened post steroids and I become remorseful, and the thought about reconcilliation ceases (he wanted to get back together for over 20 years now, although has since re-married so this has ceased). Even writing this response to you reboot was hard... Just another testimonial how someone can kill your love for them. I suppose it can be altruistic in loving someone so much that you feel you have enough love for the both of you. I used to do that with my ex. I thought if I just loved him a little more eventually he would come around. God, how many times did my head hit the wall before I realized it was just not gonna happen??? Thank God I snapped out of it or I might have brain damage by now!
Author White Flower Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 I often wonder if this "dead love" can be rekindled. The love in my M "died" a long time ago, but it wasn't until both of us got our acts together and realized what had happened that we are now making great efforts to make our M work. The "love" we once had, that "innocent love" is GONE. But we have a new type of love that is understanding, supportive and communicative. We are still the best of friends and are reconnecting intimately. BTW, I am sooooo glad you two have found common ground/peace in your M. I think it can possibly if the factors are removed that caused the love to die in the first place. Sometimes both parties aren't willing, nor will they admit "their" mistakes...it takes maturity also...I was too traumatized with my life being threatened by my ex and the people who "I thought" were my friends too... When I see my daughters father I see all of the mess...his attitude has not changed either, which plays a big part... It definitely takes two willing hearts to make it work. If one is complacent, the other just beats his/her head against the wall with no positive outcome.
Author White Flower Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 So to answer the OP's question, I can with pretty much certainty promise to hold altruistic love for an SO for the rest of my life, but altruistic love is not enough for me to want to stay in a relationship. The selfish love which is necessary for me to want to stay in a relationship with a man can only be given to one man at a time, so when the object for that love has changed, I am gone. This kind of love can not be promised. This is the kind of love which makes me desire a man. Without desire I am not interested in having a relationship. Without desire it is friendship not a relationship in my opinion. I like this a lot. I find myself pretty much agreeing totally with them. But as to way the love changes or even dies....anything untended will not thrive. A garden left alone will be overrun by weeds, a fire left unattended will either get out of control, or die, cats not pet and loved from early on are skittish and afraid even as they long for affection....everything needs attention, everything needs tending stroking and care. If you allow complacency to replace care, and indeference to over come tenderness, yeah you will lose that loving feeling. Love is more then just an emotion. Those saying love is an action will say this supports their position. But I disagree. Because you can care and tend for a partner, but if its not fueled by the emotion love its either 1 a job, 2 a chore, 3 an annoyance, 4 a habit. Love is an emotion backed by actions. Both must be present for there to be what we think of as LOVE. Both most troubled marriages somewhere there has been a breakdown in the emotion or in the action of love. CCL CCL I think you summarized JJ's post beautifully using entirely different language! I love it!
Author White Flower Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 I really hope this is making sense...have a really bad kidney infection and am on ANTIBIOTICS....WF knows about antibiotics:):) Aw yes, don't remind me that I become very argumentative while under the influence of antibiotics. And those were taken for internal bleeding after a very stressful D-day. I was kinda bitchy. This is great having you on LS reboot (your personality is great also)...don't get me wrong, I love the ladies, it's just nice to have a guys perspective also... We love Reebs and Owl! I miss Lakey and Stampy too. Somebody call in Joe and Boldjack.
Author White Flower Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 Agree, agree, agree. I think love can be encouraged and supported but it is so linked to respect, in my view, that other events can impact and mean that you can't love someone no matter how hard you try. One can even respect someone dearly but find that they cannot love them, sadly.
Author White Flower Posted June 6, 2010 Author Posted June 6, 2010 The problem with this is that he/she may deliver but it won't be out of love if the love isn't really there. It will be out of a sense of duty to keep the promise. No way Marlena would I EVER want this... This issue is huge with me. I see MM fulfill a duty daily with his W and it frustrates me. I would NEVER want his love delivered on the note of duty, yet I'm sure even he gets some kind of reward in delivering it that way. He gets the pat on the back by both staying M and by fulfilling daily responsibilities being the altruistic H, etc., but if she KNEW the love was altruistic only she may not want it (even though I think she pretty much demands it, but that's another thread)*. *I am told that it is stated at his house how 'the state of M should be' and what is expected of a H and W. These are expected duties in that home. I understand that we all have domestic expectations, but ultimately staying M as a duty would not be my cup of tea. That is to say, I would hate for him to feel obligated to stay if he didn't love me.
Silly_Girl Posted June 6, 2010 Posted June 6, 2010 This issue is huge with me. I see MM fulfill a duty daily with his W and it frustrates me. I would NEVER want his love delivered on the note of duty, yet I'm sure even he gets some kind of reward in delivering it that way. He gets the pat on the back by both staying M and by fulfilling daily responsibilities being the altruistic H, etc., but if she KNEW the love was altruistic only she may not want it (even though I think she pretty much demands it, but that's another thread)*. *I am told that it is stated at his house how 'the state of M should be' and what is expected of a H and W. These are expected duties in that home. I understand that we all have domestic expectations, but ultimately staying M as a duty would not be my cup of tea. That is to say, I would hate for him to feel obligated to stay if he didn't love me. Sounds eerily familiar and I feel exactly as you do, WF.
Author White Flower Posted June 6, 2010 Author Posted June 6, 2010 I have read only the first post in this thread so I don't know what everyone else has said. Yes, for me future love can be promised. For example I know I will always love my children. The same with romantic partners. I have been in love several times but only made the future love promise to one person (the one I married). He betrayed me abysmally yet I still love him and will continue to do so irrespective of what happens to our relationship. I accept that other posters know that they themselves cannot make such a promise, but I object to those that shout (using capitals when in writing) to someone else, that future love cannot be promised. For me it can be. Sid Sid, I appreciate your post and have a question for you. Your H betrayed you and you say you will continue to love him irrespective of what happens to your R. Do you believe it could be possible, if he were to cheat repeatedly that your love for him could die? Or if he became a gambler and lost your home, car, and job? Is there anything that he could do to kill your love for him? I ask honestly. I ponder this because as I consider promising to love my guy forever, should we ever end up together, could he kill my love for him just like my ex did. I'm sure he could. In fact, when I sense he is pulling away or just not that in to me (this ony happens once in a blue moon for about a day:D) I have no problem calling him up and saying I think we need to end it. My love didn't die, but feeling that he didn't love me is what makes me end it. I need love, not the R. If the love is dead, to me the R is unneccessary. I know that Rs have ups and downs and I anticipate this of course. But when I truly feel the threat of love dying on his end I pull out real quick. I suppose after my M I'm not sticking around to watch that (slow death of the R) happen again.
Author White Flower Posted June 6, 2010 Author Posted June 6, 2010 I've read posts in other forums by parents whose children have sexually abused their other children, taken drugs, stolen from them, beaten them. They no longer love their child and never will. I know it's really extreme but it's why I think all love is conditional. And I love my son more than I ever knew it was possible to love someone. I think he is a beautiful, kind, conscientious and funny person, with untold qualities and he shines a light on my world. The thought of being without him has, at times, made me feel physically sick. I can't for half a seconnd imagine it, but if he behaved as some boys do, I'd stop loving him eventually, I imagine.If I had proof that my son did the unspeakable I think I could stop loving him. I'd never stop loving the memory of his sweet childhood but I wouldn't gush with love for the monster he'd become. I shudder the imagination actually, but since you brought it up.
Author White Flower Posted June 6, 2010 Author Posted June 6, 2010 Ok, I was really tired when I posted, but what I mean is really a combination of things already posted. When I get married, I will promise my love to my spouse forever. And I will give it willingly and freely, in sickness and in health, blah blah blah. I won't just bail on him when he stops meeting my needs. At that point, it would be up to us to work on those things together. However, if conditions drastically changed, it's up to me to have enough integrity to speak up. It is not appropriate for me to promise my love forever, but decide I no longer love him and then not tell him I intend to break my promise. I'm going to differ with you a bit on altruistic love. Altruistic to me implies obligation, and means giving and receiving nothing in return. I think in any love relationship, both parties receive something in return, even if it's just self validation. I personally do not feel obligated to love anyone, not even my parents. I don't love them because I have to. I love them because I want to. OTOH, my aunt is a very bad person. Though she is my family, I do not love her, nor do I feel obligated to love her. You love them because you want to, yes. And you do things for them because you want to. But what if they called you every day and asked you to do things for them and it became overwhelming? Then you might do things for them because you felt obligated to, right? You can love someone and still feel obligated to do things for them. When the obligation outweighs the desire to serve, I think altruism becomes more about giving than receiving for sure. And I disagree, altruism involves receiving as well. We get pats on the back, attaboys, what a good H you are for doing all that for her, etc. We DO get something out of 'giving' and duty. I read in my speech/com class that altruistic deeds are good for us because serving others makes us feel good about ourselves. Altruism often has selfish motives!
Author White Flower Posted June 6, 2010 Author Posted June 6, 2010 Beautiful! He's very lucky to have a mom like you. I second the motion! FO is a great mom and I wish she would adopt me.
Author White Flower Posted June 6, 2010 Author Posted June 6, 2010 Love can die. And it can be killed - by either party. I told my husband once that I would love him forever, and that only one person could ever make me fall out of love with him - and that one person was him. That said - I do believe you can promise to love forever. Though the "in love" feelings of excitement and lust can wax and wane through the years, I do believe/know that I can promise to always love - with the one caveat above - that my love isn't destroyed by the actions of the object of that love. I agree with what you said. Again, the chemistry love must be nurtured by the verb love. Actions need to support the feelings and vice versa. Keeping the cycle alive is pertinent to keeping love alive.
SidLyon Posted June 6, 2010 Posted June 6, 2010 So far your experiences in life have coincided with your promise of love. If you fall out of love with your husband and in love with another man, you will learn that for you too love can not be promised, it is out of your control. Most probably your husband still meets enough of your needs for you to still be in love with him, and this might also be the case for the rest of your life time. Let's hope so. I don't make any distinction between loving someone and being "in love". I accept it's possible therefore that I could come to love another man, however that will be by my own choice it will not be something beyond my control. That won't change that I will continue to love my husband. Because of his betrayal I've had to accept that our marriage may not go on forever. Maybe he will no longer love me or move onto someone else. I accept your outlook on love is different to mine. There is no need for you to tell me that I cannot promise love because that isn't true, I already have. I accept that you feel unable to promise love (because you have often said so). Why do you not accept that I can?
Author White Flower Posted June 6, 2010 Author Posted June 6, 2010 Just a thought...it might be nice to post our general age and experience such as first, second M, etc., to get an idea of where peoples perspectives are coming from. I know those of us in 40s to 50s feel very differently about love than more idealistic beliefs of someone in their 20s and 30s. It's all relative.
SidLyon Posted June 6, 2010 Posted June 6, 2010 Sid, I appreciate your post and have a question for you. Your H betrayed you and you say you will continue to love him irrespective of what happens to your R. Do you believe it could be possible, if he were to cheat repeatedly that your love for him could die? Or if he became a gambler and lost your home, car, and job? Is there anything that he could do to kill your love for him? I ask honestly. I ponder this because as I consider promising to love my guy forever, should we ever end up together, could he kill my love for him just like my ex did. I'm sure he could. In fact, when I sense he is pulling away or just not that in to me (this ony happens once in a blue moon for about a day:D) I have no problem calling him up and saying I think we need to end it. My love didn't die, but feeling that he didn't love me is what makes me end it. I need love, not the R. If the love is dead, to me the R is unneccessary. I know that Rs have ups and downs and I anticipate this of course. But when I truly feel the threat of love dying on his end I pull out real quick. I suppose after my M I'm not sticking around to watch that (slow death of the R) happen again. There are plenty of things my H can do to end our marital relationship including some of the things you mention. That won't end all relationships with each other as we share children and other family. Like you I need love so if I don't sense the love from him then I will reluctantly end the relationship. It won't change that I love him but will change the nature of the relationship. It's entirely possible that like J-J he will find that he was unable to promise love. I accept that many (maybe even most) are like that. I am just saying that's not the case for me. By the way I don't consider it a bad thing that people can't promise to love forever. It has it's own drawbacks. So to answer your question it does seem possible that love can be killed. What I object to is somebody telling other people that their own experience of this (not being able to promise future love) is universal. I am not at all religious but I think the Christian view of their god is that he promises eternal love? So presumably Christians at least can relate to the idea that future love can be promised. Forgive me for speaking for them as I'm an atheist myself.
SidLyon Posted June 6, 2010 Posted June 6, 2010 Just a thought...it might be nice to post our general age and experience such as first, second M, etc., to get an idea of where peoples perspectives are coming from. I know those of us in 40s to 50s feel very differently about love than more idealistic beliefs of someone in their 20s and 30s. It's all relative. I am in my mid 50s. I did not marry until my late 30s. My kids are teenagers. As a child of the 60s and 70s I went through the "if it feels good - do it" era. I had 2 long term "live-in" relationships before, and a few boyfriends. I doubt anyone would describe me as young and idealistic.
pureinheart Posted June 6, 2010 Posted June 6, 2010 So you have never fallen in love at first sight then? I have, and it was a very, very powerful experience. Unfortunately the object of my affection turned out to have severe alcohol problems, so our love relationship did not last more than a month, but we remained dear friends until his premature death at 35. I am still certain that he was a soul mate of mine, we were so compatible, I just could not endure his alcoholism. I have...you should have seen my daughters dad back in the day...OMG:love::love:....I also have a long term friend that I've dated before...oh man...neither of these were lust at first sight...I wanted them forever!
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