Myowntwofeet Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 I really don't think there is much black in white in this. During it, I never felt in competition as I said. I know many want to believe the OW is hidden away and living in a cave somewhere but in our case, we did what we wanted... and many times I wondered if he wanted to get caught, I knew at that time it was in my best interest that it did not come out. I always believed if we were *found out, prior to us making that decision together, it would be over. I wasn't thinking of "empathy" for any of us. When dday hit - all I could think about was her and him. I was far more worried about them ( and really her) than I was about myself. I supported him fully through the first two weeks and said very very little about anything. Just supported. There were a lot of " don't know what I am going to do, don't know who I am going to end up with comments"... which in it, meant to me that he was actually still trying to figure it out - and in my mind may be smart enough to step away from both. They told their daughters literally the next day... and again, I found that odd ( I am all for honesty, but I think most would agree in the blow up, sharing it all - is a little extreme, when there are still more questions than answers). It was about 2 weeks in that the light came on - he said " I am trying to save my life"... and it all just went *ding ding. He wasn't telling me.... he had made a decision and wasn't telling me. A decision he never spoke of to me and that is when I started to see the anger. From there... it was tears, a half assed good bye and a couple months of sink throwing. I had no empathy for any of us in that. When I was doing the hard work to walk away without remorse, with love.... I had empathy and understanding for each one of us..... I also had guilt the second time around that I didn't expect. When I asked for a councilor's number ( he had offered many many times) and he went dark for no apparent reason - that is when I started to put two and two together. He knew I would never ask for help unless I really needed it but how could he give me the IC's number if he hadn't been honest with the IC? It made me start questioning everything all over again, made me wonder if he was really being honest to any of us and the guilt/anger/confusion took over again. He had lied to her while I was in the car ( the one and only time I ever heard him lie to her) and it was mind altering.... I would have never known had he been lying to me. It made my head spin, I wondered if I was really doing the right thing.... if she deserved to know, etc, etc.... and in a total emotional meltdown.... I sent her an email telling her of the last 6 months. Empathy then.... you bet.... confusion, that too. Now, like I have already said..... there is no empathy for any of us.... now it is a "own the choices" feeling. No one can say they don't know or the cards aren't on the table.... no one can say something was kept from them and like I also said earlier.... should he stray again.... there is no one to blame. Just like everything in Affairs or for that matter relationships.... it changes, evolves and finally becomes indifference.
silktricks Posted June 7, 2010 Posted June 7, 2010 Since the topic of this thread has changed slightly, I will add... I believe that I felt and showed empathy to both the OW and my H after I found out about the affair. I purchased a gift for her (which he gave her - later I found out that he never mentioned me during the giving..... duh...). I also told him that he needed to take care of the situation in whatever manner was most comfortable to him and least hurtful to her. I wasn't all in his face about "you've got to call her this minute, etc.... I wanted it over, but not in an unseemly way. So far as I was concerned at that point, he had had every right to do what he did, given the way things had been between us, and she had every right to respond. What she did for the next year+ changed my mind completely. Both about her (she was a scheming lying little twit who would NOT leave us alone) and about how their situation had started (as I heard from others who saw what went down). All empathy I had for her went up in smoke.
OWoman Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 Does the ability to engage in an affair have a direct correlation to the lack of empathy one feel's towards the spouse you will help to betray? While some people can have compassion and empathy universally, mine is definitely selective. I stopped counselling for Life Line because I found it too much of an ask to empathise with callers who phoned in for counselling having just raped a child or beaten their W. I found myself going through the motions mechanically while wishing I had a tracer on their number (this was long before caller ID). I'm afraid my sense of social justice and my vehement political convictions will not allow me to empathise with someone in a position of power or control who abuses that at someone else's expense. Which was why I could have no empathy towards my H's xW. Her ongoing abuse ruled that out, for me. Sure, she grew up in a dysfunctional family. But IMO that does not justify her CHOOSING to act abusively to her Hs and to subject them to far more cruelty over a far longer period than she endured, and it most certainly does not justify her messing up her own kids' lives just because that was done to her. She has had countless opportunities for therapy to get herself sorted out, but preferred instead to abuse. My empathy just doesn't stretch that far - it gets used up on her kids and her xHs. I have profound respect for social workers who work with gangs, rapists, bullies etc because I know I couldn't. My empathy would lie with the underdogs, their "victims" and the recipients of their abuse.
RedDevil66 Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 While some people can have compassion and empathy universally, mine is definitely selective. I stopped counselling for Life Line because I found it too much of an ask to empathise with callers who phoned in for counselling having just raped a child or beaten their W. I found myself going through the motions mechanically while wishing I had a tracer on their number (this was long before caller ID). I'm afraid my sense of social justice and my vehement political convictions will not allow me to empathise with someone in a position of power or control who abuses that at someone else's expense. Which was why I could have no empathy towards my H's xW. Her ongoing abuse ruled that out, for me. Sure, she grew up in a dysfunctional family. But IMO that does not justify her CHOOSING to act abusively to her Hs and to subject them to far more cruelty over a far longer period than she endured, and it most certainly does not justify her messing up her own kids' lives just because that was done to her. She has had countless opportunities for therapy to get herself sorted out, but preferred instead to abuse. My empathy just doesn't stretch that far - it gets used up on her kids and her xHs. I have profound respect for social workers who work with gangs, rapists, bullies etc because I know I couldn't. My empathy would lie with the underdogs, their "victims" and the recipients of their abuse. How about the empathy for the W's of the many other married men you cheated with? Did you have any empathy for them?
2long Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 How about the empathy for the W's of the many other married men you cheated with? Did you have any empathy for them? Indeed. I believe empathy is like morality or integrity. One either has it or doesn't. I suppose there are degrees of empathic ability, just as there are levels of integrity. Some professionals rank being cheated on as comparable 2 being raped. I'm not sure I could go that far, but I do remember how painful it was for me 2 discover my W's affair. Most affairees don't cheat because they want 2 hurt their BSs - they're 2 s2pid and 2 wrapped up in themselves 2 think that deeply. But an unrepentant/unapologetic OP? Especially repeat offenders? They simply can't know what the word empathy even means. -ol' 2long
Author Spark1111 Posted June 9, 2010 Author Posted June 9, 2010 I think when you are sure that your partner wouldn't be hurt after finding out about your affair , its ok . But if you know that it will hurt him or her badly , yet make a conscious choice of getting involved in an affair , It is totally non-empathetic . Because If you have empathy , the fear of causing that sort of pain to your spouse will get better of you & you won't go any further . This is true in 99% of cases . Dont you think so ? Passion, this seems to be a necessary part of the pre-affair script, IMHO. The WS MUST talk themselves out of their natural empathy by minimizing the marriage, or the BSs feelings for them, if not to the OW/OM, at the very least, to themselves. In their fragile or selfish psyche, they must find reasons to talk themselves out of their natural empathy, by any reasons they can point to or manufacture, to give themselves permission to go forward with the affair. It seems that losing empathy for one's spouse, is a very necessary step towards justification.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 9, 2010 Author Posted June 9, 2010 While some people can have compassion and empathy universally, mine is definitely selective. I stopped counselling for Life Line because I found it too much of an ask to empathise with callers who phoned in for counselling having just raped a child or beaten their W. I found myself going through the motions mechanically while wishing I had a tracer on their number (this was long before caller ID). I'm afraid my sense of social justice and my vehement political convictions will not allow me to empathise with someone in a position of power or control who abuses that at someone else's expense. Which was why I could have no empathy towards my H's xW. Her ongoing abuse ruled that out, for me. Sure, she grew up in a dysfunctional family. But IMO that does not justify her CHOOSING to act abusively to her Hs and to subject them to far more cruelty over a far longer period than she endured, and it most certainly does not justify her messing up her own kids' lives just because that was done to her. She has had countless opportunities for therapy to get herself sorted out, but preferred instead to abuse. My empathy just doesn't stretch that far - it gets used up on her kids and her xHs. I have profound respect for social workers who work with gangs, rapists, bullies etc because I know I couldn't. My empathy would lie with the underdogs, their "victims" and the recipients of their abuse. I agree that I too have always been a champion of the underdog and while I am empathetic to the abuse victims and those of us who experienced dysfunctional childhoods, I drew my line in the sand fairly young: I will not be a victim of my childhood and I will not stoop to victimizing others. With all the resources available out there, is there anything more pathetic than someone who continues to repeat destructive patterns in their relationships, over and over again? Unfortunately, so many do not avail themselves and are doomed to feel self-pity for which others are always blamed. It can never be their fault. And it is sad.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 9, 2010 Author Posted June 9, 2010 Indeed. I believe empathy is like morality or integrity. One either has it or doesn't. I suppose there are degrees of empathic ability, just as there are levels of integrity. Some professionals rank being cheated on as comparable 2 being raped. I'm not sure I could go that far, but I do remember how painful it was for me 2 discover my W's affair. Most affairees don't cheat because they want 2 hurt their BSs - they're 2 s2pid and 2 wrapped up in themselves 2 think that deeply. But an unrepentant/unapologetic OP? Especially repeat offenders? They simply can't know what the word empathy even means. -ol' 2long 2long, I disagree. I think they have it on some level, especially for themselves. They just have a greater ability to talk themselves out of it for others, if it conflicts with what they need or want. Some can do this quite easily. Other can not. Hence, this thread.
Snowflower Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 Passion, this seems to be a necessary part of the pre-affair script, IMHO. The WS MUST talk themselves out of their natural empathy by minimizing the marriage, or the BSs feelings for them, if not to the OW/OM, at the very least, to themselves. In their fragile or selfish psyche, they must find reasons to talk themselves out of their natural empathy, by any reasons they can point to or manufacture, to give themselves permission to go forward with the affair. It seems that losing empathy for one's spouse, is a very necessary step towards justification. Wow, way to make me cry, Spark. So true though as hard as it is to accept.
2sure Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 Pre-Affair the WS has to justify having or wanting to have an affair. This is done by finding fault with the marriage and the BS. They have to feel not only that they deserve to have an affair, but also that the BS deserves to be betrayed. Whether that is admitted or not...its part of the decision to cheat. Also, i really do think that a small problem in a marriage will be magnified in the mind of a souse wanting to justify an affair. Do they have empathy, sure. Thats why they need the justifications. Does the OW have empathy? Sometimes, sure. Thats why she needs to hear the justifications. Thats why so many know all about the faults and short comings (real or imagined) of BS & the marriage. Some OW , because they have empathy Need to hear these justifications just so they can have the affair. And sleep I guess. When I was OW I have to say I did not have real empathy for BS. I hate to admit that. Its awful. I specifically discouraged MM from talking / complaining about their spouse & marriage. Because I didnt want to hear it. Because I didnt want to make it tangible to me. And because I didnt want to have to care. I didnt need the justifications. Coincidentally, each of the MM I knew seemed to be pretty pleased with their wives and marriages.
seren Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 In the early days of my career I worked with survivors of sexual and domestic abuse, rape and also sex offenders. I am also the survivor of child abuse and rape. At times it was difficult to watch the women (sometimes men) who had lived with domestic violence return to their abusive situations time and time again. To understand why women would or could take their children back into terrible, terrible situations just about spun me out at times. But, the job involves not jumping in and drowning with them, but standing on the bank and throwing a lifeline. It also meant putting my feelings, thoughts on the back boiler, not judging, or feeling pity for, but realising that I wasn't living their lives, having empathy for their situation and being non judgemental. The disempowering of these women enabled the abusers to continue to abuse. I can draw parallels with the constant gas lighting in affairs. It makes you question your sanity. Something so demoralising that most OW/OM cannot imagine, unless they have been in a similar situation. Many, on being unceremoniously discarded question what the MP said, promised, wonder if it were true and have some small idea of what gas lighting is about. Yet if most OW/OM were asked would you enable someone to emotionally abuse another until they are almost driven mad, I am sure most would say an emphatic no. Working with abusers and rapists meant working with what is, not was. Having read some of their case files and some of the worse kinds of child abuse that many had, it allowed me to understand better, empathy? not so sure about that. I don't hold to the I had a crap life so I am bound to turn out bad. if that was the case, I would give Crippen a run for his money. Everyone should own their own actions. As an aside, and not to take away from survivors. I told H I would rather he had hit me than hurt me emotionally, would go through what I had gone through a thousand times rather than lose my trust and faith in our M, the loss of trust was everything. I am sure if the OW had realised how her enabling had helped H to do this, she might just have had second thoughts and possibly empathy. I understood why H had an A, I just didn't understand why OW enabled him. The saying don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself is an oldie, but goodie.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 9, 2010 Author Posted June 9, 2010 Pre-Affair the WS has to justify having or wanting to have an affair. This is done by finding fault with the marriage and the BS. They have to feel not only that they deserve to have an affair, but also that the BS deserves to be betrayed. Whether that is admitted or not...its part of the decision to cheat. Also, i really do think that a small problem in a marriage will be magnified in the mind of a souse wanting to justify an affair. Agree with this....He began to hammer me over the head with the same insignificant issues, literally making mountains out of molehills and nothing I did, or said, or suggested to resolve them made a difference. This is when I began to distance myself from him. I guess it worked well for him then in producing the desired result. Do they have empathy, sure. Thats why they need the justifications. Does the OW have empathy? Sometimes, sure. Thats why she needs to hear the justifications. Thats why so many know all about the faults and short comings (real or imagined) of BS & the marriage. Some OW , because they have empathy Need to hear these justifications just so they can have the affair. And sleep I guess. Great point! I do not know her, but I do know when I confronted her, she had absolutely no correct view of who I was. Disdainful and contemptuous, as if she had a right to despise ME! Very weird. When I was OW I have to say I did not have real empathy for BS. I hate to admit that. Its awful. I specifically discouraged MM from talking / complaining about their spouse & marriage. Because I didnt want to hear it. Because I didnt want to make it tangible to me. And because I didnt want to have to care. I didnt need the justifications. Coincidentally, each of the MM I knew seemed to be pretty pleased with their wives and marriages. Did you ever consider that ANY talk of the BS would make you more empathetic towards them? Maybe you did not want to care? I mean, denial is a beautiful thing. If you did not want to hear complaints because it would make you more empathetic, have you considered that for you, hearing NOTHING that would define any aspect of the BS's personallity may be the very thing that allowed you to have no empathy?
Author Spark1111 Posted June 9, 2010 Author Posted June 9, 2010 Pre-Affair the WS has to justify having or wanting to have an affair. This is done by finding fault with the marriage and the BS. They have to feel not only that they deserve to have an affair, but also that the BS deserves to be betrayed. Whether that is admitted or not...its part of the decision to cheat. Also, i really do think that a small problem in a marriage will be magnified in the mind of a souse wanting to justify an affair. Do they have empathy, sure. Thats why they need the justifications. Does the OW have empathy? Sometimes, sure. Thats why she needs to hear the justifications. Thats why so many know all about the faults and short comings (real or imagined) of BS & the marriage. Some OW , because they have empathy Need to hear these justifications just so they can have the affair. And sleep I guess. When I was OW I have to say I did not have real empathy for BS. I hate to admit that. Its awful. I specifically discouraged MM from talking / complaining about their spouse & marriage. Because I didnt want to hear it. Because I didnt want to make it tangible to me. And because I didnt want to have to care. I didnt need the justifications. Coincidentally, each of the MM I knew seemed to be pretty pleased with their wives and marriages. In the early days of my career I worked with survivors of sexual and domestic abuse, rape and also sex offenders. I am also the survivor of child abuse and rape. At times it was difficult to watch the women (sometimes men) who had lived with domestic violence return to their abusive situations time and time again. To understand why women would or could take their children back into terrible, terrible situations just about spun me out at times. But, the job involves not jumping in and drowning with them, but standing on the bank and throwing a lifeline. It also meant putting my feelings, thoughts on the back boiler, not judging, or feeling pity for, but realising that I wasn't living their lives, having empathy for their situation and being non judgemental. The disempowering of these women enabled the abusers to continue to abuse. I can draw parallels with the constant gas lighting in affairs. It makes you question your sanity. Something so demoralising that most OW/OM cannot imagine, unless they have been in a similar situation. Many, on being unceremoniously discarded question what the MP said, promised, wonder if it were true and have some small idea of what gas lighting is about. Yet if most OW/OM were asked would you enable someone to emotionally abuse another until they are almost driven mad, I am sure most would say an emphatic no. Working with abusers and rapists meant working with what is, not was. Having read some of their case files and some of the worse kinds of child abuse that many had, it allowed me to understand better, empathy? not so sure about that. I don't hold to the I had a crap life so I am bound to turn out bad. if that was the case, I would give Crippen a run for his money. Everyone should own their own actions. As an aside, and not to take away from survivors. I told H I would rather he had hit me than hurt me emotionally, would go through what I had gone through a thousand times rather than lose my trust and faith in our M, the loss of trust was everything. I am sure if the OW had realised how her enabling had helped H to do this, she might just have had second thoughts and possibly empathy. I understood why H had an A, I just didn't understand why OW enabled him. The saying don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself is an oldie, but goodie. It's the motto I live by. It's what makes me empathetic. As for abused children growing up to be abusing adults, the saddest thing for me is they do not recognize patterns within themselves. Worse than the self pitiers, are those who say "my parents beat me, abused me, emotionally neglected or minimized me, and look, I think I turned out pretty good. Denial can be an evil evil thing, especially in relationships. Yes, enabling is a whole other psychological area, justified by love, lust, fear, or selfishness. Unfortunately, enablers believe they are loving someone, without realizing the pain the loved one is causing all others. Like the mother of the teen drug addict who has just robbed a store: Her empathy lies with her troubled teen, less so, to not at all, the livelihood of the store owner to feed his family.
2sure Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 Did you ever consider that ANY talk of the BS would make you more empathetic towards them? Maybe you did not want to care? I mean, denial is a beautiful thing. If you did not want to hear complaints because it would make you more empathetic, have you considered that for you, hearing NOTHING that would define any aspect of the BS's personallity may be the very thing that allowed you to have no empathy? Yep. Thats it. With the first one, I stopped after a found out his wife's name. Note: It didnt stop me from moving onto the next. Its the strangest thing too....when men did on occasion say something about their spouse, good or bad: It made me pissed off at him FOR her. How strange is that? Stupid me. I denied even my own guilt
OWoman Posted June 18, 2010 Posted June 18, 2010 I was thinking about this the other day. According to Wikpedia, Empathy is distinct from sympathy, pity, and emotional contagion.[24] Sympathy or empathic concern is the feeling of compassion or concern for another, the wish to see them better off or happier. Pity is feeling that another is in trouble and in need of help as they cannot fix their problems themselves, often described as "feeling sorry" for someone. Emotional contagion is when a person (especially an infant or a member of a mob) imitatively "catches" the emotions that others are showing without necessarily recognizing this is happening.[25] I'm sure most OWs feel sympathy or pity for BWs, even if their empathy for the BW in their own particular triangle is low. Given that: Some research suggests that people are more able and willing to empathize with those most similar to themselves. In particular, empathy increases with similarities in culture and living conditions. Empathy is more likely to occur between individuals whose interaction is more frequent. (See Levenson and Reuf 1997 and Hoffman 2000: 62). A measure of how well a person can infer the specific content of another person's thoughts and feelings has been developed by William Ickes (1997, 2003). Ickes and his colleagues have developed a video-based method to measure empathic accuracy and have used this method to study the empathic inaccuracy of maritally aggressive and abusive spouses, among other topics. There are concerns that the empathiser's own emotional background may affect or distort what emotions they perceive in others (e.g. Goleman 1996: p. 104). Empathy is not a process that is likely to deliver certain judgements about the emotional states of others. It is a skill that is gradually developed throughout life, and which improves the more contact we have with the person with whom one empathises. Accordingly, any knowledge gained of the emotions of the other must be revisable in light of further information. it would make sense that those OWs who have been BWs themselves in the past (or experienced some similar betrayal at the hands of someone close to them) would be most likely to be able to empathise, while those whose experiential repertoire has not included betrayal would be least likely to.
VelveteenBunny Posted June 20, 2010 Posted June 20, 2010 Not all AP's feel guilt free. Some empathize and deal with a lot of guilt and shame. They feel torn, however, because of their feelings for one another. Love, desire, and loneliness are all great motivators. Not only are their positive draws to staying, despite the neg. emotions that come with it, but while leaving relieves those neg. emotions, it brings about new ones, and diminishes good ones. Also, sometimes the M person feels torn because they aren't happy in their M for some reason, but also not happy leaving for whatever reason. However, some feel worse about it than others, and there are those that simply don't care, and a few who are sadistic. It's individual. Also, some believe the crap the MM/MW spews about their spouse and how horrible they are, but not all MM/MW berate the BS. As far as being suspicious of such talk, it depends on the OW/OM's relationship to MP when they make these marital comments. If they're already friends or close somehow, such "confessions" might seem normal, and not as tasteless as berating them to random people. So the OW/OM might not be turned off, but listen, believe, and sympathize. Also, there is a coping mechanism where people compartmentalize. And also people might use the out of sight out of mind thing. How many people eat meat? A LOT- Most. How many of them logically know where it comes from? Most, although they might not know the specifics about cruel factory treatment and slaughter, they know it's an animal that was killed for that purpose. Now, how many of those people would kill it themselves to eat it? A lot less. How many would be okay watching the animal slaughtered? A lot less, also. Are they complicit in it being killed when they eat it? Yes. Do they continue to eat it for years and years? Usually. Do they feel bad about it? Some do, most only vaguely so, or ocassionaly if at all, which is why many don't quit. They logically know what they're eating, but somehow it doesn't sink in emotionally. It's as if some part of them doesn't fully understand it, and I think it's partially because they are removed from the actual animal and the actual event of slaughter. On the plate, it even looks diff. Logically you know things, but people emotionally disconnect at times in order to allow themselves to do things. Most of you are capable of it to a degree, and most of you have done it. Similarly, in A, the OW/OM usually isn't around the BS, tends not to have a close relationship with them, and doesn't usually watch or listen to them suffering. On the other end, where there is their love, romance, friendship, passion, etc., it doesn't even look the same. See what I mean? Does it make it right? No, but it makes it easy to disconnect in your head. P.S. Empathy IS partially taught, BUT it's also hereditary and biologcal- brain structure and chemistry plays a role.
2long Posted June 21, 2010 Posted June 21, 2010 2long, I disagree. I think they have it on some level, especially for themselves. They just have a greater ability to talk themselves out of it for others, if it conflicts with what they need or want. Some can do this quite easily. Other can not. Hence, this thread. Empathy is about being able 2 identify with the feelings of another, not of one's self: em·pa·thy /ˈɛmpəθi/ Show Spelled[em-puh-thee] Show IPA –noun 1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another. My W had an affair, and yet I know she has empathy for others. My confidence in her ability 2 empathize with my feelings over what she did has been damaged, for sure. But it's improving. -ol' 2long
Author Spark1111 Posted June 21, 2010 Author Posted June 21, 2010 In the early days of my career I worked with survivors of sexual and domestic abuse, rape and also sex offenders. I am also the survivor of child abuse and rape. At times it was difficult to watch the women (sometimes men) who had lived with domestic violence return to their abusive situations time and time again. To understand why women would or could take their children back into terrible, terrible situations just about spun me out at times. But, the job involves not jumping in and drowning with them, but standing on the bank and throwing a lifeline. It also meant putting my feelings, thoughts on the back boiler, not judging, or feeling pity for, but realising that I wasn't living their lives, having empathy for their situation and being non judgemental. The disempowering of these women enabled the abusers to continue to abuse. I can draw parallels with the constant gas lighting in affairs. It makes you question your sanity. Something so demoralising that most OW/OM cannot imagine, unless they have been in a similar situation. Many, on being unceremoniously discarded question what the MP said, promised, wonder if it were true and have some small idea of what gas lighting is about. Yet if most OW/OM were asked would you enable someone to emotionally abuse another until they are almost driven mad, I am sure most would say an emphatic no. Working with abusers and rapists meant working with what is, not was. Having read some of their case files and some of the worse kinds of child abuse that many had, it allowed me to understand better, empathy? not so sure about that. I don't hold to the I had a crap life so I am bound to turn out bad. if that was the case, I would give Crippen a run for his money. Everyone should own their own actions. As an aside, and not to take away from survivors. I told H I would rather he had hit me than hurt me emotionally, would go through what I had gone through a thousand times rather than lose my trust and faith in our M, the loss of trust was everything. I am sure if the OW had realised how her enabling had helped H to do this, she might just have had second thoughts and possibly empathy. I understood why H had an A, I just didn't understand why OW enabled him. The saying don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself is an oldie, but goodie. Seren, I too had a childhood that would make Oliver Twist resemble a prince. In my early 20s, I made a vow that it would not define me: Too easy to gain advantage through the sympathy of others. I wanted to be judged and evaluated and liked or disliked for me: Spark, the person; not Spark, the victim. Gaslighting will make you question your sanity and is a form of emotional abuse. I likened it to discovering you MM/MW having another OW/OM, telling them all the loving and endearing sentiments they are telling their AP; lying about their whereabouts; telling you you must be crazy to think they could be cheating on you, too. Hands down the response was they would be kicked to the curb as an AP.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 21, 2010 Author Posted June 21, 2010 I was thinking about this the other day. According to Wikpedia, I'm sure most OWs feel sympathy or pity for BWs, even if their empathy for the BW in their own particular triangle is low. Given that: it would make sense that those OWs who have been BWs themselves in the past (or experienced some similar betrayal at the hands of someone close to them) would be most likely to be able to empathise, while those whose experiential repertoire has not included betrayal would be least likely to. Much more common than you would think, OWoman. Unfortunately, it is a subconcious desire for empowerment; having felt powerless when betrayed by a former lover/spouse, a woman or man can seemingly have little pangs of conscience in engaging in an affair with a MP because subconciously it empowers them to be in the role of dominance over an unsuspecting spouse, like they once were.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 21, 2010 Author Posted June 21, 2010 Empathy is about being able 2 identify with the feelings of another, not of one's self: My W had an affair, and yet I know she has empathy for others. My confidence in her ability 2 empathize with my feelings over what she did has been damaged, for sure. But it's improving. -ol' 2long Understood and agreed. They talk themselves out of it for the spouse. When my husband and I finally started to talk of reconciling, I often played the "what if" game to rekindle those feelings of empathy for ME. What if I had a secret lover I spoke to ten times a day without your knowledge, claiming it was so and so from work? What if I secretly met my old boyfriend in hotels under the guise of business trips? He began to look at me horrified, as he could now empathize with what his feelings would be in those situations.
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