Empathy Issue?

[Myowntwofeet]

And in all fairness I doubt that in most cases only the OW and BS feel confused and somewhat stupid. I think the WS in most cases is not a user - he's just really messed up. He doesn't really know what he wants, because there are parts of each woman he likes/loves - and in many cases he likes the status quo and doesn't want it changed. He wants both women. Both women make his life satisfying at some level. So instead of doing anything to try to make up his mind - he does everything to avoid it.

 

 

:bunny::bunny:

 

YES!

 

This is it. I was never a woman who thought ill of his wife. We were different.

 

The challenge I have is knowing him as well. I know she will never meet those needs -nothing against her, at all. I also know he will *try to be good. I have removed him from my life ( nothing like an open email to both to do that). I do love him, I even get that he is messed up, which was a very big reason for writing the email.

 

He wants to stay stuck. I love him, but I won't be treated like that. That is what this whole thread was about. Empathy, and it is why I no longer have any for anyone of us.

 

On the flip, as a woman I understand her pain... but cannot understand the choice she made. I accept it and I forced his decision by making it for him when I said I would no longer be party to it.

 

I don't think it changes anything and in fact - I think it made it easier for him to revert back to his old life. " lost her" so now I can just go back to "normal"

 

That will work for a year, year and a half at most. He now knows the feeling.... he can't run from it forever.

[silktricks]

I do love him, I even get that he is messed up, which was a very big reason for writing the email.

 

He wants to stay stuck. I love him, but I won't be treated like that. That is what this whole thread was about. Empathy, and it is why I no longer have any for anyone of us.

 

Good for you. Neither you nor anyone else should be treated that way.

[Myowntwofeet]

Good for you. Neither you nor anyone else should be treated that way.

 

 

Not easy, not easy at all and laced with doubt, tears... a couple random ( wish I could take back emails:o

 

But we are literally almost at the one year mark. I am getting stronger, but I didn't do it all as "prescribed". I needed to decide what I wanted.

 

I wanted the man I knew to stand up, own his choices - whatever they were and do it for him as I believe that is the only way it would work for any of us.

 

Instead he swirled in obligation, loving 2 woman, guilt, his "life" and was looking for a way to fix "that"..... not stand up and fix him.

 

Now, I am taking my own advice - again hard. I do miss him, terribly... but the difference is - when DDay occurred I would have walked that hard road with him. I would have done the work and supported the work he needed to do with his family, his W. That is no longer an option.

 

If things don't work out with her. He will find that fence sitting, behaving terrible to both really, only ended up making things far more difficult.

 

I always say when it is a LTA and he is in love with both.... the only way to truly know is for both woman to step away, both to go dark. It is the only way I would ever know for sure he made the right choice.

 

When DDay occurred, I wasn't asking to go off into the sunset. I was asking that he be man enough to see the years of uncertainty in his actions, the person he was with me, with her and to step away from both - regardless of what we "wanted".

 

Imo, it would have been the biggest gift he could have given us.

 

Its funny..... healthy reconciled couples often refer to an entirely new relationship. In situations like ours ( a decade plus of deceit for the BS) I really believe that is the only way.

 

It doesn't happen when you are both still eating breakfast at the same table. It only works if you part and find your way back - to me ( again strictly imo) that is what so many BS and often the WS ( who is simply trying to stay status quo in the moment) miss. They are afraid to let go, but if they can't truly and fully let go - how do they really know?

 

To me - it is an immediate apart - you go live somewhere, get a place, get a life... I will do the same.

 

Real love stands the test of time ( regardless of who it is BS/OW/OM, etc)

Edited June 5, 2010 by Myowntwofeet

[silktricks]

It doesn't happen when you are both still eating breakfast at the same table. It only works if you part and find your way back - to me ( again strictly imo) that is what so many BS and often the WS ( who is simply trying to stay status quo in the moment) miss. They are afraid to let go, but if they can't truly and fully let go - how do they really know?

You sound like a very intelligent woman. I think a lot of WS are afraid to let go, because they are afraid that then they will end up with neither woman and be alone. It seems to me that so many people keep their heads so cluttered up with nonsense that they don't even know themselves, let alone anyone else.

 

To me - it is an immediate apart - you go live somewhere, get a place, get a life... I will do the same.

 

Real love stands the test of time ( regardless of who it is BS/OW/OM, etc)

Yes, it does.

[xxoo]

You are ignoring the fact that the MM is in a fullblown relationship with his other woman. There are no two ways about it that he was and is available.

 

If he were available, there would be no reason for secrets and lies.

[jennie-jennie]

If he were available, there would be no reason for secrets and lies.

 

If he was committed, there would be no secrets and lies.

[MizFit]

If he were available, there would be no reason for secrets and lies.

 

 

He, like every other WS, has taken the choice to pull away from the marriage and make part of himself available. Unfortunately many people don't respect the boundaries the ring on their finger represents...when that happens they make themselves available. To say they don't is naive in my opinion...if they didn't then there wouldn't be an opportunity for an affair.

[MizFit]

If he was committed, there would be no secrets and lies.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself J-J...

[Spark1111]

Not easy, not easy at all and laced with doubt, tears... a couple random ( wish I could take back emails:o

 

But we are literally almost at the one year mark. I am getting stronger, but I didn't do it all as "prescribed". I needed to decide what I wanted.

 

I wanted the man I knew to stand up, own his choices - whatever they were and do it for him as I believe that is the only way it would work for any of us.

 

Instead he swirled in obligation, loving 2 woman, guilt, his "life" and was looking for a way to fix "that"..... not stand up and fix him.

 

Now, I am taking my own advice - again hard. I do miss him, terribly... but the difference is - when DDay occurred I would have walked that hard road with him. I would have done the work and supported the work he needed to do with his family, his W. That is no longer an option.

 

If things don't work out with her. He will find that fence sitting, behaving terrible to both really, only ended up making things far more difficult.

 

I always say when it is a LTA and he is in love with both.... the only way to truly know is for both woman to step away, both to go dark. It is the only way I would ever know for sure he made the right choice.

 

When DDay occurred, I wasn't asking to go off into the sunset. I was asking that he be man enough to see the years of uncertainty in his actions, the person he was with me, with her and to step away from both - regardless of what we "wanted".

 

Imo, it would have been the biggest gift he could have given us.

 

Its funny..... healthy reconciled couples often refer to an entirely new relationship. In situations like ours ( a decade plus of deceit for the BS) I really believe that is the only way.

 

It doesn't happen when you are both still eating breakfast at the same table. It only works if you part and find your way back - to me ( again strictly imo) that is what so many BS and often the WS ( who is simply trying to stay status quo in the moment) miss. They are afraid to let go, but if they can't truly and fully let go - how do they really know?

 

To me - it is an immediate apart - you go live somewhere, get a place, get a life... I will do the same.

 

Real love stands the test of time ( regardless of who it is BS/OW/OM, etc)

 

I agree, MOTF!

 

My DDAY was July, and his initial knee-jerk reaction was to beg to come home.

 

But he was still talking with her, and while she encourage his reconciliation to his "family," I was having no part of that.

 

I am a woman too, and deserve to be loved and cherished for me. I was not interested in being lumped in with "family." It seemed like a farce to me.

 

So I went dark, and he lived for awhile with her and then several different locations.

 

I think she grew weary with HIM, and his indecision, and his flip-flopping.

 

So, while she remained friendly and supportive to him, she too, went dark.

 

You are right. It only works when a clear choice is made.

[jennie-jennie]

I agree, MOTF!

 

My DDAY was July, and his initial knee-jerk reaction was to beg to come home.

 

But he was still talking with her, and while she encourage his reconciliation to his "family," I was having no part of that.

 

I am a woman too, and deserve to be loved and cherished for me. I was not interested in being lumped in with "family." It seemed like a farce to me.

 

So I went dark, and he lived for awhile with her and then several different locations.

 

I think she grew weary with HIM, and his indecision, and his flip-flopping.

 

So, while she remained friendly and supportive to him, she too, went dark.

 

You are right. It only works when a clear choice is made.

 

Are you saying here, Spark, that the OW made the decision for your husband?

[Spark1111]

He, like every other WS, has taken the choice to pull away from the marriage and make part of himself available. Unfortunately many people don't respect the boundaries the ring on their finger represents...when that happens they make themselves available. To say they don't is naive in my opinion...if they didn't then there wouldn't be an opportunity for an affair.

 

Much truth in this.

 

And it makes me wonder why people enter into marital relationships.

 

Because it is the thing to do?

 

Or are they ready, really ready, to take on a lifelong commitment and all the hard work and self-sacrifice it takes to make it not just work, but work really well.

 

And if they find they married for the wrong reasons, or can't make it work, or have outgrown their partner, then the empathetic thing to do would be to divorce amicably and move on.

 

But to stay for the kids, or the familial history, or any other reason, seems like a justification to me, and unempathetic ultimately to the spouse.

 

Because don't we all deserve a loving, committed and passionate relationship?

 

It is not developing feeling for another I object to, because who could object to that, truly?

 

It is conducting that relationship in secret from me and not allowing me to make decisions and choices for myself that is the height of selfishness.

[Spark1111]

Are you saying here, Spark, that the OW made the decision for your husband?

 

No, not necessarily. I think she remained supportive of whatever choice he made, and they kept in contact for several months.

 

I believe she was hoping he would choose her and rightfully so after 1.5 years. I cannot imagine her pain of having this man turning on a dime and now crying at her kitchen table of wanting to reconcile with me. She was still so kind to him throughout it all. In this sense, she really took the high road.

 

But I believe she did back off in a sense, limited contact to supportive phone calls and texting, and awaited the outcome.

 

I went totally dark. I refused to influence this outcome one way or another because I refused to be anyone's default choice for the sake of "keeping the family together." I also believed he was in love with her, and just needed time to sort it out.

 

So, MOTF is very wise here. Being completely on his own with NC from me and limited from her, whomever he chose could never feel like the back-up plan.

[jennie-jennie]

No, not necessarily. I think she remained supportive of whatever choice he made, and they kept in contact for several months.

 

I believe she was hoping he would choose her and rightfully so after 1.5 years. I cannot imagine her pain of having this man turning on a dime and now crying at her kitchen table of wanting to reconcile with me. She was still so kind to him throughout it all. In this sense, she really took the high road.

 

But I believe she did back off in a sense, limited contact to supportive phone calls and texting, and awaited the outcome.

 

I went totally dark. I refused to influence this outcome one way or another because I refused to be anyone's default choice for the sake of "keeping the family together." I also believed he was in love with her, and just needed time to sort it out.

 

So, MOTF is very wise here. Being completely on his own with NC from me and limited from her, whomever he chose could never feel like the back-up plan.

 

So did he finally make a firm and assertive decision that it was you he wanted and not the OW? And was this while he still had the choice available to him of choosing the OW?

[Samantha0905]

Sam, I cannot think of any act that shows less empathy than to engage in an affair.

 

I'm sure there are some acts that do. I think a person who has an affair is confused. I don't think they totally lack empathy for their spouse. They do exhibit selfishness (at times) and a lack of empathy (at times).

 

Was your husband at least 50 percent responsible for the state of the relationship pre-affair? Weren't you? What steps were taken to improve the relationship pre-affair? Either you or he or both?

Yes, we're both responsible for the state of our marriage. After 27 years of marriage there have been some good times and bad times. Sometimes very good times and sometimes very bad times. In the couple of years before the affair, we had become more distant -- then, as I've said many times before we were renovating a home for 14 months, our daughter got married and our son went to college. My husband and I weren't connecting at all and someone started flirting and I flirted back. When the flirting began, there wasn't an "I'm going to have an affair" thought process going on -- it went on for months before it was consummated into something physical. It would be nice if all sorts of more rational thought were going on and I thought reasonably, "I'm going to sit down and talk to my husband about our less than enjoyable sex life, lack of communication and total lack of intimacy." Unfortunately, that's not the mode someone is in when heading down the slippery slope to what will eventually be misery. It's because it's disguised as excitement, flattery, etc.

 

I think I felt more empathy and guilt towards my spouse and family once the affair began than I did in those initial flirtation stages.

 

I am not talking morality, or selfish decisions, or personality disorders.

 

I am talking of empathy.

I realize what you are talking about. I'm just saying I don't think a person having an affair has a total lack of empathy for their spouse, family, affair partner, etc. They are confused and acting selfishly -- but it's no all in a totally non-empathetic bubble. It's all mixed up. I only made the tongue in cheek comment about antisocial personality because people with those are said to totally lack empathy. Edited June 6, 2010 by Samantha0905

[Spark1111]

So did he finally make a firm and assertive decision that it was you he wanted and not the OW? And was this while he still had the choice available to him of choosing the OW?

 

Yes. And no one was more stunned than I, except of course, her.

 

Then the hard part started for him: convincing me he was a worthy partner to entertain a future with. I resisted for a long time. My anger, not at having feelings for another, but to deceive me about them, was so great for such a long time.

 

And it is why I came to these boards with only empathy in my heart for the OW. His treatment of her proved despicable and cowardly to me, no matter what she said or how supportive she seemed of his decision to reconcile.

[jennie-jennie]

Yes. And no one was more stunned than I, except of course, her.

 

Then the hard part started for him: convincing me he was a worthy partner to entertain a future with. I resisted for a long time. My anger, not at having feelings for another, but to deceive me about them, was so great for such a long time.

 

And it is why I came to these boards with only empathy in my heart for the OW. His treatment of her proved despicable and cowardly to me, no matter what she said or how supportive she seemed of his decision to reconcile.

 

I have been there myself, totally stunned that my WS choose me in the end, but the longest any of those extramarital relationships had lasted was half-a-year.

 

I am glad to hear that there was an end to your husband's flip-flopping and indecisiveness. Isn't that what we all hope for?

 

May I ask in which way you thought your husband treated the OW "despicable and cowardly"?

[Spark1111]

While he never directly told her of a future, he certainly implied one, up until the very, very end. Remember, I read their texts, unbeknownst to either of them.

 

He has told me since, that he began to suspect there would not be a future with her about 6 months prior to DDAY, yet he could not figure a way to tell her, to end it, so he continued to sustain it; to do what he had always done.

 

So strange, and so cowardly, I told him. Whether it was split-self, confusion or selfishness, (or all three?) he exemplified the characteristics of poor communication, conflict-avoidance, and ultimately, a selfishness.

 

While he is begging to come home, and she is encouraging him to "try", I had already gone dark after telling him to go get her. I threw him out with the full expectation that my marriage was over for good. I prepared my children for it, spoke to an attorney, and began to get all my ducks in a row.

 

While he spoke to her of my unwavering hostility, he did not tell her he was now finally free to be with her. He was. But then chose not to.

 

So in the aftermath of DDAY, he was unable, incapable of telling anyone the truth because he did not know it himself. And I think his efforts of trying to "let her down gently," did not lessen the blow for her.

 

Can you imagine having a man who has professed to love you, imply a future with you, now showing up to talk of how much he really loves his spouse, his family, growing distant, somewhat shutting down, not being completely truthful with you and what? You begin to intuit you were a diversion? A mistake?

 

I mean, that IS despicable. That is now knowing what the BS has felt during your affair with this man who you believed, if nothing else, was at least telling YOU the truth.

[Myowntwofeet]

I agree, MOTF!

 

My DDAY was July, and his initial knee-jerk reaction was to beg to come home.

 

But he was still talking with her, and while she encourage his reconciliation to his "family," I was having no part of that.

 

I am a woman too, and deserve to be loved and cherished for me. I was not interested in being lumped in with "family." It seemed like a farce to me.

 

So I went dark, and he lived for awhile with her and then several different locations.

 

I think she grew weary with HIM, and his indecision, and his flip-flopping.

 

So, while she remained friendly and supportive to him, she too, went dark.

 

You are right. It only works when a clear choice is made.

 

Don't have too much time to respond.

 

I do agree 100% and for me personally - it would have made a big difference in my "comfort level" that he actually made a clear and conscious choice ( not one out of fear, guilt,etc)

 

But it goes against every MC advise, and many many here. I see so many confused mostly BS here and all I want to really say .... step away - get over the fear of losing, get over the fear of being alone or whatever those fears are ( especially longterm marriages as they can be really just a "habit") and make the best choice for all.

 

It isn't popular, but I think it is the only way each party will know the best decision will be made.

 

The problem?

 

I think the WS fears stepping away and finding out that both the BS and the OW are ok without them - especially in the case of MM. They need to "fix" things, they need to be needed and I think they worry that if they step away and move out ( it should be them as they are the confused ones) they will find that both women have very different expectations before taking him back.

[Passion4Life]

I'm sure there are some acts that do. I think a person who has an affair is confused. I don't think they totally lack empathy for their spouse. They do exhibit selfishness (at times) and a lack of empathy (at times).

 

Yes, we're both responsible for the state of our marriage. After 27 years of marriage there have been some good times and bad times. Sometimes very good times and sometimes very bad times. In the couple of years before the affair, we had become more distant -- then, as I've said many times before we were renovating a home for 14 months, our daughter got married and our son went to college. My husband and I weren't connecting at all and someone started flirting and I flirted back. When the flirting began, there wasn't an "I'm going to have an affair" thought process going on -- it went on for months before it was consummated into something physical. It would be nice if all sorts of more rational thought were going on and I thought reasonably, "I'm going to sit down and talk to my husband about our less than enjoyable sex life, lack of communication and total lack of intimacy." Unfortunately, that's not the mode someone is in when heading down the slippery slope to what will eventually be misery. It's because it's disguised as excitement, flattery, etc.

 

I think I felt more empathy and guilt towards my spouse and family once the affair began than I did in those initial flirtation stages.

 

I realize what you are talking about. I'm just saying I don't think a person having an affair has a total lack of empathy for their spouse, family, affair partner, etc. They are confused and acting selfishly -- but it's no all in a totally non-empathetic bubble. It's all mixed up. I only made the tongue in cheek comment about antisocial personality because people with those are said to totally lack empathy.

 

I think when you are sure that your partner wouldn't be hurt after finding out about your affair , its ok . But if you know that it will hurt him or her badly , yet make a conscious choice of getting involved in an affair , It is totally non-empathetic . Because If you have empathy , the fear of causing that sort of pain to your spouse will get better of you & you won't go any further . This is true in 99% of cases .

Dont you think so ?

[pureinheart]

While he never directly told her of a future, he certainly implied one, up until the very, very end. Remember, I read their texts, unbeknownst to either of them.

 

He has told me since, that he began to suspect there would not be a future with her about 6 months prior to DDAY, yet he could not figure a way to tell her, to end it, so he continued to sustain it; to do what he had always done.

 

So strange, and so cowardly, I told him. Whether it was split-self, confusion or selfishness, (or all three?) he exemplified the characteristics of poor communication, conflict-avoidance, and ultimately, a selfishness.

 

While he is begging to come home, and she is encouraging him to "try", I had already gone dark after telling him to go get her. I threw him out with the full expectation that my marriage was over for good. I prepared my children for it, spoke to an attorney, and began to get all my ducks in a row.

 

While he spoke to her of my unwavering hostility, he did not tell her he was now finally free to be with her. He was. But then chose not to.

 

So in the aftermath of DDAY, he was unable, incapable of telling anyone the truth because he did not know it himself. And I think his efforts of trying to "let her down gently," did not lessen the blow for her.

 

Can you imagine having a man who has professed to love you, imply a future with you, now showing up to talk of how much he really loves his spouse, his family, growing distant, somewhat shutting down, not being completely truthful with you and what? You begin to intuit you were a diversion? A mistake?

 

I mean, that IS despicable. That is now knowing what the BS has felt during your affair with this man who you believed, if nothing else, was at least telling YOU the truth.

 

In bold, could he have been speaking badly of her to keep you? Also in another post you mentioned that he was done with the A mentally/emotionally 6 months prior to D-Day...could this have been his fear, fear that she would spill the beans.

[seren]

One of the things I just couldn't get my head around was that OW had total empathy for me after D Day, possibly because the only answers she got were from me, H choosing to be totally non empathetic toward her and refusing to speak with her. Yet, during the A, had none, admitted that she suggested to H that I was having an A, that he would be better off alone, admitted that she did all she could to encourage him to leave, yet also acknowledged that what she thought our marriage was, was really nothing like it truly was. For about a week after D Day she rang our home to speak about how she was feeling, it was a very, very bizarre time, and I have reflected on this time and looked at how it went down and can honestly say that I just felt empathy, could see how, despite my abhorrence of A's and deceit, could see parallels in hurt, pain and loss.

 

To empathise meant putting myself in her shoes, also H's, it helped me to heal and to understand. It didn't mean not for one moment that I condoned, agreed with or did not feel anger because of what H had done and what she had enabled him to do. As I have stated previously, my good old moral compass means never intentionally doing harm or being the cause of pain and hurt to another.

 

I think sometimes some people think that some (if not all) BS hate the OW, not so, I can feel empathy for her. I also know my experience of a D Day and believe me, H had no empathy for her whatsoever. I see the same things she said to me written by OW time and time again and I really don't understand why anyone would choose to enable the pain of another, and also to believe the same old over and over again. As a BS, I thought I would know, but I didn't because he was the same, we had good and bad days, but life was generally good. I had empathy because when the S*** hit the fan and the truth was out, it just showed what the A was really all about - H.

I know some WS admit to A's fall in love and leave, I admire people who are true to their convictions, not so cake eaters, no empathy for them whatsoever nor their enablers.

[Spark1111]

Don't have too much time to respond.

 

I do agree 100% and for me personally - it would have made a big difference in my "comfort level" that he actually made a clear and conscious choice ( not one out of fear, guilt,etc)

 

But it goes against every MC advise, and many many here. I see so many confused mostly BS here and all I want to really say .... step away - get over the fear of losing, get over the fear of being alone or whatever those fears are ( especially longterm marriages as they can be really just a "habit") and make the best choice for all.

 

It isn't popular, but I think it is the only way each party will know the best decision will be made.

 

The problem?

 

I think the WS fears stepping away and finding out that both the BS and the OW are ok without them - especially in the case of MM. They need to "fix" things, they need to be needed and I think they worry that if they step away and move out ( it should be them as they are the confused ones) they will find that both women have very different expectations before taking him back.

 

I agree, and it is why I voraciously espouse, NC, to both the OW and the BS on these boards.

 

Not only does it force choice and change, it protects you from being the default choice; the back-up plan, the Plan B, the safe haven in the storm.

 

Also, during the course of the affair and probably pre-affair too, my husband stopped seeing me for the woman I truly am. Whether to assauge his guilt or justify his actions, he told himself repeatedly: She doesn't really love me; she's only here for the paycheck; all marriages have problems; I deserve to feel good; she'll be okay in the future if I can provide enough compensation.

 

I'm pretty sure this is what he implied to his OW too on a fairly regular basis; his mental script of my lack of commitment to him.

 

Now, if you spoke to 100 people who had known us well, nothing could have been further from the truth in their perceptions of us.

 

He was absolutely stunned at the depth of my pain and rage; and my succeeding actions of throwing him out and encouraging him to build a life with his soulmate since I was moving on.

 

I do not know why he convinced himself of these delusions, but it was his self-delusion that obviously gave him permission to engage and continue in his affair.

 

He stopped seeing me for who I truly was. He minimized me and my love for him. And I refused to take him back until he could see me for who I truly am and have always been.

 

I espouse NC for the BS also.

[Spark1111]

In bold, could he have been speaking badly of her to keep you? Also in another post you mentioned that he was done with the A mentally/emotionally 6 months prior to D-Day...could this have been his fear, fear that she would spill the beans.

 

Oh no, he never spoke badly of her ever. In fact, for reasons that are unclear to me, it seemed as if horns were placed on my head while a halo hung over her's.

 

I refused to engage in this dynamic because I felt it just encouraged his scripted self-delusion. I refused to be the mean mommy in opposition to her being the good mommy: all kindness and support and encouragement.

 

He kept trying to go there, to recreate his scripted scenario, to maybe have further justification for choosing her, until I told him that she was probably a very nice woman who also got involved or believed his bull****.

 

Initially after DDAY, he was very arrogant, as if it was my fault he had the affair. I refused to defend myself or accept any blame for his actions, though blame he tried.

 

I kept calmly telling him to go get her, be with her, if that's who you love and want.

 

It was later, much later, when we were able to talk civilly to each other, that he knew she wasn't the one, but he could not extricate himself. And I believe this to be true. She did want more and deservedly so. He had implied a future with her and was apparently not delivering on it.

 

He was oh so happy to sit on the fence and have a mistress and family life.

 

Too bad it was not enough for either woman.

[Spark1111]

One of the things I just couldn't get my head around was that OW had total empathy for me after D Day, possibly because the only answers she got were from me, H choosing to be totally non empathetic toward her and refusing to speak with her. Yet, during the A, had none, admitted that she suggested to H that I was having an A, that he would be better off alone, admitted that she did all she could to encourage him to leave, yet also acknowledged that what she thought our marriage was, was really nothing like it truly was. For about a week after D Day she rang our home to speak about how she was feeling, it was a very, very bizarre time, and I have reflected on this time and looked at how it went down and can honestly say that I just felt empathy, could see how, despite my abhorrence of A's and deceit, could see parallels in hurt, pain and loss.

 

To empathise meant putting myself in her shoes, also H's, it helped me to heal and to understand. It didn't mean not for one moment that I condoned, agreed with or did not feel anger because of what H had done and what she had enabled him to do. As I have stated previously, my good old moral compass means never intentionally doing harm or being the cause of pain and hurt to another.

 

I think sometimes some people think that some (if not all) BS hate the OW, not so, I can feel empathy for her. I also know my experience of a D Day and believe me, H had no empathy for her whatsoever. I see the same things she said to me written by OW time and time again and I really don't understand why anyone would choose to enable the pain of another, and also to believe the same old over and over again. As a BS, I thought I would know, but I didn't because he was the same, we had good and bad days, but life was generally good. I had empathy because when the S*** hit the fan and the truth was out, it just showed what the A was really all about - H.

I know some WS admit to A's fall in love and leave, I admire people who are true to their convictions, not so cake eaters, no empathy for them whatsoever nor their enablers.

 

My sitch was somewhat different, seren.

 

My husband held tremendous guilt towards his treatment of both of us for a very long time. That told me he lied or led her on too!

 

I made a few kindly attempts to contact her on her cell phone 6 months later as they work for the same company and I wanted to ensure it would all be okay if we ever bumped into each other.

 

She never responded and I asked my H why do you think that is?

 

Oh she must feel terrible, embarrassed by it all, he responded.

 

Two years later, she brazenly breaks NC, almost in an effort to reinitiate the affair, and says she would have never returned my calls as they were "vicious."

 

You know what? He didn't truly see me during the affair, but he truly did not see her either. Only what he needed and wanted to see.

 

She had absolutely no empathy for him or me. Just arrogance.

[Ann_Igma]

I'm fairly certain the OW in my situation had no empathy at all at the time of her EA with my H. I know this is not the case for the majority of OW, though.

 

I think her lack of empathy was at least somewhat down to circumstance instead of being her general nature - she had only JUST decided to call it quits on the LTR she had been in, and was in the middle of moving out of the flat she shared with her ex, etc.

 

I remember about a week after her break-up, I had a long chat with her to see how she was and offer consolation and advice. I remember one bit of advice that I gave her was that after a multi-year relationship, she should spend at LEAST a few months focusing on herself and healing, before starting anything up with another man as that could lead to disaster.....

 

I had found something dodgy and made an offhand comment to her just two weeks into their EA. I then apologised to her () for my comment and explained WHY I had said what I did, and then went on to tell her how very much I love my husband and all of that nonsense. Whilst I realise now how stupid and naive I was being, I'm relating that story as it seems relevant to this post in showing her empathy.

 

Also, she had planned to come spend a week at our house visiting me and my H during their EA. Thankfully I was at least suspicious enough by the time she came to visit that I am sure she pretty much had no opportunity to see my husband outside of my presence (not going to explain in this thread as it's too OT, but even now I have many reasons to be sure of that).

 

To this day, I still don't understand how she was able to spend a week at our house, with me taking care of her, cooking for her most days, trying to make her as comfortable as possible, etc.. allowing me to do all that for her whilst at the same time trying to progress her relationship with my husband..

 

After D-Day when I outed their A to our mutual friends (I didn't out the A to everyone I knew, but I felt it was relevant to out it to this group for a few reasons), she expressed to a few of them how bad she felt for what she did to me. Only, having read some of her words to my H regarding me, I'm more inclined to believe that she only felt bad for getting caught and didn't much mind either way how her actions had made me feel.

 

I realise she's the atypical OW though, and I'm a bit thankful for that. I'll never really know if it was her situation which caused such a lack of empathy or if she'd always been like that and I'd never noticed before, due to not being very close friends. I prefer to think the former though, as I find the latter a bit disturbing.

 

Edit: Also wanted to add that my H definitely showed a lack of empathy for engaging in an affair, and I'm sure that I showed a lack of empathy towards the both of them when I was at my angriest. It goes all ways, and I could/may write posts for those other two sides as well at some point. It's just that reading Spark's last post made me want to relate this particular side.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Ann_Igma