jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 On a level playing field, perhaps yes. But on the playing field where the two of them are wearing rings that say to the world: "We have agreed to be married and to be faithful to one another. Keep out." I believe you are a transgressor, and no, you do not have an equal right to be loved by this man. The ring obviously does not mean anything to the man who wears it, since he is available for a relationship. Notice your past tense: "We have agreed to be married and to be faithful to one another." Apparently the man is not agreeing to it anymore. He has broken the agreement.
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 I don't understand this way of thinking, but if it works for you .. I mean that respectfully. If a D-Day happens, everything will change. All I can say is, don't put all your eggs in one (his) basket. Oh, I have a full life of my own, don't worry. He is the extra, the silver lining, the sugar coating on the cake. Not saying that I won't be devastated on Dday, I will of course, but I have lived without him for most of my life, I can do it again.
whichwayisup Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Oh, I have a full life of my own, don't worry. He is the extra, the silver lining, the sugar coating on the cake. Not saying that I won't be devastated on Dday, I will of course, but I have lived without him for most of my life, I can do it again. So in some sense, you do know if there is a D-Day, he's going to stay married. I guess I don't see the point of it all, knowing that one day it's going to end badly, it's only a matter of time..
Myowntwofeet Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 She is a victim in the fact that her ball-less husband chose to cheat on her instead of divorcing her. You want to (or need to) believe his heart is with someone else (you) but obviously it isn't since - according to you - she knows about you - yet HE STILL STAYS. What does that say about him? What does that say about your 'love'? Is it the standard "he doesn't believe in divorce" or "he wants to honor his commitments" line because IMHO - those are both rubbish because it is so highly hypocritical .... I can't leave, but I can cheat .... what kind of mentality is that? She was victim - no longer. He stays. Did I anywhere say he didn't love her:rolleyes:, in fact... I am pretty sure I said he did. It is altruistic, but add that to kids, money, a house and the stress that they would be the first ( yes first) in their immediate families to divorce. Why is that so unbelievable? I hear it all the time from you and others..... " you know what the "right" thing is to do ( referring to WS's).... try this, try that..... if you "want" it, you can do it.... your feelings for your affair partner are "fog"... not real, etc, etc, etc. Add it all together and let's see....... what is easier? Especially when a BS is saying " it's ok honey.... you cheated on me for xxx number of years, I know you still wanted her to "wait" for you.... but oh, wait.... I love you... lets work this out. Come on, as unbelievable as you make it sound... nothing is that black or white and you do know that - but it wouldn't work to your favor to admit it. She clearly knows without a doubt the depth of our relationship......as I said - after DDay I did feel a great deal of pain/understanding for her. She is No longer the victim. If he "cheats" again... and he will - she is knew the facts, the real ones, she made a CHOICE at this point. Once all was on the table, any empathy I had changed to being adults and making clear, concise choices with all the information. The thing you fail to see, I don't have empathy for myself either - nor him. I will not play victim. I made a choice - he made a choice- in the end, she also made a choice. We all have to own them... that was and most likely is still a very difficult thing for XMM. He thought I would "love" him like she did... I didn't take seconds when I was with him, I wasn't a hidden OW then and I refused to accept it now. I do love him, but I won't enable him any longer. She has that choice as well.
Myowntwofeet Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 So in some sense, you do know if there is a D-Day, he's going to stay married. I guess I don't see the point of it all, knowing that one day it's going to end badly, it's only a matter of time.. Well if that is the case... we are all dying too....so really - what's the point? Somethings, in fact many things are worth the pain - with no pain and love, there is no passion, no growth. I am grateful I experienced what many would say isn't really "what it is"..... but then, they haven't experienced to appreciate it. There are no guarantees in life
pureinheart Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 I think there may be a lack of empathy all the way around in affair situations -- and I'm not just talking about the lack of empathy a WS feels toward their BS. Just reading this board makes me realize how much many people in general lack in empathy at times. Other times they seem filled with it. I'm sure its somewhat situational and based on what the particular person has experienced in their own life. As I've said many times, a marriage involves two people. When someone has an affair they make a selfish decision, but it does not indicate they have antisocial personality disorder or that they are totally lacking in empathy for their spouse, the antichrist, etc. I totally agree with this. I am so sick of things so black and white. Although I can admit that I did lack empathy when I engaged in a revenge A, but my H brought that one on himself. It does take two. Actually LD what Samantha is saying is about as black and white as it gets, although I know what you were getting at and totally agree with both of you. In the case of an abusive S, the abusive S would say to the WS that they should have left the M first, although shouldn't the abusive S have left the M first before abusing verbally/emotionally/physically?
pureinheart Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Spark, you will probably not like my answer but it is honest. If he went outside our relationship with another than I would have no choice but to admit we did not have what we thought. It is simple... but goes against those that stay in a marriage so not popular. I have lived on the * other side only once but it has not changed my views and I was always honest with him in that. I don't buy the whole " intimate love - having an affair" IF someone is cheating on you - you do NOT have an intimate relationship... intimacy is more than sex and honestly - it is the actual mental relationship -that is what is most important. I am sure I could recover a one night stand, I am also 100% certain I would choose not to recover a LTA ( that to me is anything more than an obliterated ons) If you can consciously make a decision to be intimate with another - We do not have "love", not in the true sense. It doesn't follow a reconciling BS theory - but it is my truth. If he really loved, respected and honored his wife.... he wouldn't have had an affair. To me, it is cut and dry. He can "love" similar to that of a family member but he can not be in an intimate love relationship and still carry on an affair. It is not popular, but in my opinion it is his choice to demean the wife ( or person he is cheating on) and no sorry in the world would change that. In that relationship he/her is capable and should they have any "reason" they will embark again. period. (in my opinion) So ... the question - would I expect empathy. NO. Certainly not from the OW who owes me nothing. From him, I would expect the truth - if I got it in a round about way - then I would have a choice to make. If I choose to stay for whatever reason - that is a empowered choice and no one should feel empathy for a choice I consciously made. I understand the confused feelings, I can relate to the pain ( and I certainly did) but I will not take away the power to choose and the responsibility to own that choice. As I said - I no longer have empathy for the XMM W. I can relate to her pain and I understand it - but at the end of the day - she choose to stay with the knowledge of the truth. If it crumbles, if he strays again - there is no empathy for her, nor would I expect any if the tables were turned. Wow, MOTF, this is really good and helped me to understand why I was not able to recover from all H's seeing others...I felt the love was gone and turned a quick about face and was gone...I gave no thought to empathy/sypmathy or even forgiveness, as there was no need for it. The truth was in my face and did what needed to be done...and was done...didn't even really have to heal from it...done. Excellent post...
MizFit Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 So in some sense, you do know if there is a D-Day, he's going to stay married. I guess I don't see the point of it all, knowing that one day it's going to end badly, it's only a matter of time.. If I look back on my life I have had a huge love and several others that weren't quite so huge, but still very significant in my life. For many, varied reasons they ended. If I look at my history it tells me relationships don't last forever. If I look at other relationships around me I see more that end in divorce or bustups than those that last. If I look at the people who I see around me who are 'happily' married they are harboring secrets of affairs, flirtations, sexless and emotionless states...as a matter of fact one of the stalwart relationships I see on a regular basis is a couple together and in their 70s. They are happiness personified...she's been cheating on him for 20 years. Maybe I'm slanted by my own experiences and those of the people in a broad circle around me, but relationships end or are seldom what they appear. I'm dating 2 men besides MM...they will end because they aren't 'Mr Right'...that doesn't stop me from enjoying them for what they are now and hoping that one day I'll enjoy a relationship that doesn't end.
pureinheart Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 She was victim - no longer. He stays. Did I anywhere say he didn't love her:rolleyes:, in fact... I am pretty sure I said he did. It is altruistic, but add that to kids, money, a house and the stress that they would be the first ( yes first) in their immediate families to divorce. Why is that so unbelievable? I hear it all the time from you and others..... " you know what the "right" thing is to do ( referring to WS's).... try this, try that..... if you "want" it, you can do it.... your feelings for your affair partner are "fog"... not real, etc, etc, etc. Add it all together and let's see....... what is easier? Especially when a BS is saying " it's ok honey.... you cheated on me for xxx number of years, I know you still wanted her to "wait" for you.... but oh, wait.... I love you... lets work this out. Come on, as unbelievable as you make it sound... nothing is that black or white and you do know that - but it wouldn't work to your favor to admit it. She clearly knows without a doubt the depth of our relationship......as I said - after DDay I did feel a great deal of pain/understanding for her. She is No longer the victim. If he "cheats" again... and he will - she is knew the facts, the real ones, she made a CHOICE at this point. Once all was on the table, any empathy I had changed to being adults and making clear, concise choices with all the information. The thing you fail to see, I don't have empathy for myself either - nor him. I will not play victim. I made a choice - he made a choice- in the end, she also made a choice. We all have to own them... that was and most likely is still a very difficult thing for XMM. He thought I would "love" him like she did... I didn't take seconds when I was with him, I wasn't a hidden OW then and I refused to accept it now. I do love him, but I won't enable him any longer. She has that choice as well. This tells me that there is a good possibility the W knew he could "cheat" on her...high probability and yet she still M'ed him...if I am right, which I have seen many people "flirt" aggressively or show outward signs that were completely shoved under the rug...thinking they would change and yet they still M them...in this case she never was the victim...the signs are usually there and in your face...
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 (edited) So in some sense, you do know if there is a D-Day, he's going to stay married. I guess I don't see the point of it all, knowing that one day it's going to end badly, it's only a matter of time.. My MM obviously does not want to end his marriage, or he would have already. By the same token, my MM obviously does not want to end our relationship, or he would have already. A Dday won't change these circumstances. I enjoy our relationship for what it is today. My MM won't love me less because of a Dday, but he will be inclined to save his marriage at all costs, that is what I suspect. So at a Dday I will just have to wait and see whether he will be back or not when things have settled down at home. This is what I believe: My MM can not work on his marriage unless he ends the affair. He can not end the affair unless he works on himself and his inner issues. Neither can he end his marriage unless he works on himself and his inner issues. So that should be his primary focus. A Dday won't solve any inner issues he has. A Dday might make the decision for him, that is all. His wife supplies him with a sense of family, I supply him with an emotional and romantic connection. We are not in competition. Edited June 5, 2010 by jennie-jennie
Myowntwofeet Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 This tells me that there is a good possibility the W knew he could "cheat" on her...high probability and yet she still M'ed him...if I am right, which I have seen many people "flirt" aggressively or show outward signs that were completely shoved under the rug...thinking they would change and yet they still M them...in this case she never was the victim...the signs are usually there and in your face... I do agree with this to a large extent. He cheated on her for over half there marriage, but only had one *affair, he believed the rest was band aids for his emotional needs and thought he was doing "fine" until he realized what he was missing. I have very similar views to Jennie, and if I am completely honest - I believe in my situation, very little will change. They will work at being more aware of each other for a while and they will return to what they know. I will not take him back under those conditions and that will lead him to putting "band aids" back on. He will make it "work", and so will she. It is simply easier and neither are missing anything, as they never had it together to begin with.
xxoo Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Just because she got lucky and met him earlier in life. That is like a child saying "I saw him first." It isn't about met first. It is about currently committed to. If a man is currently committed to a woman, yes, she has more "right" to him. He is free to change his commitment status at any time, letting his wife know he'd like to end the commitment. How can he be available and committed at the same time?
Author Spark1111 Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 When I read many of these responses, I hear that the MM holds all the power over the two women in his triangle. It's patriarchal and downright provincial. Why does the OW have to wait, sometimes years, for a man to decide the scope and provenance of her romantic relationship with him? Why is the BS not informed so she too can make choices to empower her own life with a richly rewarding romantic relationship? Or divorce, or separation or whatever? Why is this total lack of empathy for the life choices of two women allowed?
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 It isn't about met first. It is about currently committed to. If a man is currently committed to a woman, yes, she has more "right" to him. He is free to change his commitment status at any time, letting his wife know he'd like to end the commitment. How can he be available and committed at the same time? Good question, but that is exactly what the MM is. It is not understanding this paradox that makes so many OW, including me, confused when they realize that their strong love is not enough to make the MM leave his marriage.
silktricks Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Especially when a BS is saying " it's ok honey.... you cheated on me for xxx number of years, I know you still wanted her to "wait" for you.... but oh, wait.... I love you... lets work this out. Do you believe this is the stance of the BS in your case, or in every case? I can tell you that it certainly wasn't mine. He was the one saying he wanted to stay. He was the one saying he loved me. He was the one saying he didn't want the OW. I was the one saying that if he had ANY interest in her then he should go, I wasn't interested in anything less than all of him. I was the one saying that I didn't know if I could go on. He was the one who put the majority of the work into making us "us" again - not just to make our marriage "work", but rather to relight the fire that we had both allowed to deteriorate. He had to do the majority of the work, because at that point I didn't know if he was worth it. I knew I loved him, but me loving him wasn't enough. He had to love me - and only me. If I had even once gotten even an inkling that he missed her or wanted her, I would have been gone like a shadow at noon.
silktricks Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 When I read many of these responses, I hear that the MM holds all the power over the two women in his triangle. It's patriarchal and downright provincial. Ah, come on Spark - what about MW? It's the same dynamic exactly. It's not patriarchal or provincial - it's just selfish. Why does the OW have to wait, sometimes years, for a man to decide the scope and provenance of her romantic relationship with him? Because the man in question isn't forced to MAKE a choice. Why is the BS not informed so she too can make choices to empower her own life with a richly rewarding romantic relationship? Or divorce, or separation or whatever? Because he doesn't WANT to make a choice. He wants both. His wife gives him something he doesn't want to lose - for different people it's undoubtedly different things - but whatever it is he still wants/needs it. The OW gives him something else - again, for different people is probably different things, but among them is possibly a new sense of self, maybe passion he is missing, sometimes it's "just" an ego stroke - but whatever it is it is something he wants/needs as well. Why is this total lack of empathy for the life choices of two women allowed? Because the man isn't feeling empathy. Maybe he has spent his entire life taking care of someone else and is feeling that now it's time to treat himself. Anyway, yes - there's a lack of empathy - probably going all the way 'round. The MM isn't feeling at all empathetic he's in full on selfish mode. The OW isn't feeling empathy for the BS - and really, unless they are also friends - why would she? Most people don't truly feel empathy for someone they don't know. If they did, there wouldn't be any homelessness or starvation. But the BS is probably also not showing empathy to her husband. She may think she's been all empathetic and everything, but if she truly was, she'd be more in tune with her husband and he probably wouldn't have strayed in the first place.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 She was victim - no longer. He stays. Did I anywhere say he didn't love her:rolleyes:, in fact... I am pretty sure I said he did. It is altruistic, but add that to kids, money, a house and the stress that they would be the first ( yes first) in their immediate families to divorce. Why is that so unbelievable? It's not. But it is based on many assumptions regarding BSs. Similiar to all OW are homewrecking harlots, all BSs lie down and take the bastard back for the sake of the family. I hear it all the time from you and others..... " you know what the "right" thing is to do ( referring to WS's).... try this, try that..... if you "want" it, you can do it.... your feelings for your affair partner are "fog"... not real, etc, etc, etc. Add it all together and let's see....... what is easier? This also assumes all WSs and BSs want whats easier. Not necessarily true. In my case, better. It had to be better. Especially when a BS is saying " it's ok honey.... you cheated on me for xxx number of years, I know you still wanted her to "wait" for you.... but oh, wait.... I love you... lets work this out. MOTF, you seem smarter than this. Why assume that's the scenario? Because he told you? Come on, as unbelievable as you make it sound... nothing is that black or white and you do know that - but it wouldn't work to your favor to admit it. Pay attention to your own advice here. Nothing is that black or white; neither affairs or reconciliations, IMO. She clearly knows without a doubt the depth of our relationship......as I said - after DDay I did feel a great deal of pain/understanding for her. As I did the OW. Giving the "permission," to go be with his soulmate, he turned on a dime and started pursuing me. Doubt he told her that. Why do you think BSs speak of "fog?" We live it, post DDay. She is No longer the victim. If he "cheats" again... and he will - she is knew the facts, the real ones, she made a CHOICE at this point. On this, we absolutely agree. Once all was on the table, any empathy I had changed to being adults and making clear, concise choices with all the information. This is a sticking point with me. You had empathy for the unsuspecting BS during the affair. Was it because she was so woefully unsuspecting of the affair? I do not get the deception. It screams of a lack of empathy to the feelings of the spouse. to make an informed choice. The thing you fail to see, I don't have empathy for myself either - nor him. I will not play victim. I made a choice - he made a choice- in the end, she also made a choice. Agree! We all have to own them... that was and most likely is still a very difficult thing for XMM. He thought I would "love" him like she did... I didn't take seconds when I was with him, I wasn't a hidden OW then and I refused to accept it now. I do love him, but I won't enable him any longer. She has that choice as well. Agree here too. But I wouldn't accept seconds either. You are again assuming much about BSs. And these common assumptions promote the "us against them" mentality that is oh-so-limiting, IMHO.
RedDevil66 Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 I do agree with this to a large extent. He cheated on her for over half there marriage, but only had one *affair, he believed the rest was band aids for his emotional needs and thought he was doing "fine" until he realized what he was missing. I have very similar views to Jennie, and if I am completely honest - I believe in my situation, very little will change. They will work at being more aware of each other for a while and they will return to what they know. I will not take him back under those conditions and that will lead him to putting "band aids" back on. He will make it "work", and so will she. It is simply easier and neither are missing anything, as they never had it together to begin with. Do you believe if you choses you, he will not cheat on you since you say here he's a serial cheater? Do you believe he will have it "together" once he's with you?
Author Spark1111 Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 Do you believe this is the stance of the BS in your case, or in every case? I can tell you that it certainly wasn't mine. He was the one saying he wanted to stay. He was the one saying he loved me. He was the one saying he didn't want the OW. I was the one saying that if he had ANY interest in her then he should go, I wasn't interested in anything less than all of him. I was the one saying that I didn't know if I could go on. He was the one who put the majority of the work into making us "us" again - not just to make our marriage "work", but rather to relight the fire that we had both allowed to deteriorate. He had to do the majority of the work, because at that point I didn't know if he was worth it. I knew I loved him, but me loving him wasn't enough. He had to love me - and only me. If I had even once gotten even an inkling that he missed her or wanted her, I would have been gone like a shadow at noon. This rings true for my situation. I empathized with his feelings for another, but despised him for his selfishness and his deception. He too had to do the majority of the work to re-establish us, only a better us. I refused to be anyone's default choice and had a bag packed at the door for a very long time.
xxoo Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 How can he be available and committed at the same time? Good question, but that is exactly what the MM is. We see things so differently. The fact that he feels unable to leave his wife and family....that he doesn't even tell his wife about his love affair....proves that he is not available to love another. Committed and in love with another does not equal committed and available to commence a relationship with another.
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 We see things so differently. The fact that he feels unable to leave his wife and family....that he doesn't even tell his wife about his love affair....proves that he is not available to love another. Committed and in love with another does not equal committed and available to commence a relationship with another. You are ignoring the fact that the MM is in a fullblown relationship with his other woman. There are no two ways about it that he was and is available.
pureinheart Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 I do agree with this to a large extent. He cheated on her for over half there marriage, but only had one *affair, he believed the rest was band aids for his emotional needs and thought he was doing "fine" until he realized what he was missing. I have very similar views to Jennie, and if I am completely honest - I believe in my situation, very little will change. They will work at being more aware of each other for a while and they will return to what they know. I will not take him back under those conditions and that will lead him to putting "band aids" back on. He will make it "work", and so will she. It is simply easier and neither are missing anything, as they never had it together to begin with. ExDM M'ed young because his W was pregnant...it was the "right" thing to do and I agree that it was...he had one fling after the other because he did his "duty", and I am supposing this was the justification. When he met me, he came out of the box, also "his duty" had just turned 18...exW told him as soon as the last one turned 18, she was gone...not sure if this was a game or what. So to both you and jennie, people change their minds, a D could happen if it is truly needed...In my case it was ...they are both happy now, especially his exW.
Myowntwofeet Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Do you believe this is the stance of the BS in your case, or in every case? I can tell you that it certainly wasn't mine. He was the one saying he wanted to stay. He was the one saying he loved me. He was the one saying he didn't want the OW. I was the one saying that if he had ANY interest in her then he should go, I wasn't interested in anything less than all of him. I was the one saying that I didn't know if I could go on. He was the one who put the majority of the work into making us "us" again - not just to make our marriage "work", but rather to relight the fire that we had both allowed to deteriorate. He had to do the majority of the work, because at that point I didn't know if he was worth it. I knew I loved him, but me loving him wasn't enough. He had to love me - and only me. If I had even once gotten even an inkling that he missed her or wanted her, I would have been gone like a shadow at noon. Silk, I really respect you and always have. I think you are one of the very few who have truly reconciled (imo) but I also think it is rare. There is no question when he was "trying" I am 100% sure he had his tail between his legs and was doing the "heavylifting". But here is what so many don't want to hear. While he was doing that so called heavy lifting, he was doing everything in his power to keep the waters calm over here. She knows this. I have told her. When I got my head on, realized he was playing both and not working at counseling honestly - I told her. I also told her that I was in the car with him when he told her he was "xxx". There was no doubt, no " oh she is lying". She cannot claim not knowing, and she can not claim she did not know he loved me. She asked him point blank - if he could go back would he repeat the relationship, and he told honestly - yes I would. But then that is where people will say it is fog, this or that. He does love her, but he loves me - she comes with more, she is easier. And I am 100% that for a while he thought he could recover both - until I decided what was acceptable for me. I can never and will never speak of masses ( it actually drives me crazy) there are similarities in every relationship ( not only A) and put them all in one pot is impossible ( people do it all the time) and when an OW/BS is saying in her case everyone wants to question it. Was he telling her he wanted to stay, wanted to make it work, wanted to have his "life". YES At the same time he was telling me he loved me and leaving doors open as he wanted to work with his IC But I bet if you asked her.... she would have come out guns a blazing like many here do an say he did this, he did that. He sure did - but he also lied. Again.
silktricks Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Silk, I really respect you and always have. I think you are one of the very few who have truly reconciled (imo) but I also think it is rare. First, thanks! I appreciate the respect and I'm also really glad my honey is my honey again.. :love: . There is no question when he was "trying" I am 100% sure he had his tail between his legs and was doing the "heavylifting". But here is what so many don't want to hear. While he was doing that so called heavy lifting, he was doing everything in his power to keep the waters calm over here. He wasn't really doing the "heavy-lifting", though was he? He was only keeping up the appearance of doing it. That's not the same thing at all. In fact it's rather nauseating . She knows this. I have told her. When I got my head on, realized he was playing both and not working at counseling honestly - I told her. I also told her that I was in the car with him when he told her he was "xxx". There was no doubt, no " oh she is lying". She cannot claim not knowing, and she can not claim she did not know he loved me. She asked him point blank - if he could go back would he repeat the relationship, and he told honestly - yes I would. But then that is where people will say it is fog, this or that. He does love her, but he loves me - she comes with more, she is easier. And I am 100% that for a while he thought he could recover both - until I decided what was acceptable for me. I hear what you are saying, and do not doubt that you experienced exactly what many OW experience. I've read and heard about the "fog", but if there is such a thing... (and maybe there is, I dunno:D) but this IMO isn't it. IMO (for what it's worth - and it may not be much )- the "fog" is what leads to the affair in the first place. It's the re-write of history, the seeing yourself as being abused/neglected/dissatisfied and not seeing your own input into the situation. That's the "fog" as far as I'm concerned. Once D-Day has occurred then all the cards are on the table. You have one (and only one) chance to make your choice. No wishy-washy no coming and going. One chance and only one. If there are wisps of "fog" left, then the MM/MW had better cleanse them out of their mind right NOW. I can never and will never speak of masses ( it actually drives me crazy) there are similarities in every relationship ( not only A) and put them all in one pot is impossible ( people do it all the time) and when an OW/BS is saying in her case everyone wants to question it. I think what happens is that when one of us talks about our own situation, we all have a tendency just to talk. Not to say - "well in my case, such and so..." And as a result we all sound like we're talking for every person and every case. I know I do it (then when I go back and re-read what I've written I feel like an a$$, but it's usually too late by then ). And there's probably a good deal of fear involved as well. None of us want to feel stupid, used, tricked... etc. And most of us (both BS and OW) in the aftermath of an EMA do. I spent the longest time wanting to go back in time and unmake some of the decisions I made leading up to the whole situation - not only to erase the pain of it, but also to erase the unutterable stupidity I felt . The BS often feels that she has invested her entire life in this man and their life together. Most feel demeaned by what has happened and whether accurately or not ill-used. And I would imagine that a long-term OW would feel much the same way. Was he telling her he wanted to stay, wanted to make it work, wanted to have his "life". YES At the same time he was telling me he loved me and leaving doors open as he wanted to work with his IC But I bet if you asked her.... she would have come out guns a blazing like many here do an say he did this, he did that. He sure did - but he also lied. Again.And in all fairness I doubt that in most cases only the OW and BS feel confused and somewhat stupid. I think the WS in most cases is not a user - he's just really messed up. He doesn't really know what he wants, because there are parts of each woman he likes/loves - and in many cases he likes the status quo and doesn't want it changed. He wants both women. Both women make his life satisfying at some level. So instead of doing anything to try to make up his mind - he does everything to avoid it.
Myowntwofeet Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Agree here too. But I wouldn't accept seconds either. You are again assuming much about BSs. And these common assumptions promote the "us against them" mentality that is oh-so-limiting, IMHO. Spark, because of how you quoted - I am only getting this piece. I think this is the ongoing frustration - everyone assumes things. I am not guessing at what I know - I know things for a fact. I know she has been given all the information and that is not simply from him telling me. We were outed by a third party and they left nothing out. I also know that he was playing both sides while crying at home that he wanted to stay. He is simply in love with two woman for two different reasons. There relationship for at least the past 12 years has been based on lies. He did not "tell", we were outed. We would not have *stopped, had he not been given an ultimatum and even then he was trying to recover both. My feelings are we make choices, we have to own them at some point. I will never wrap my head around her choice to stay. Not solely because of the affair - but because of the lies. The lies that continued with me until at least January ( DDay was June). She has made a decision that is best for her "life" as has he. It is not best for their girls, or the healthy choice for either. As for someone asking if I believed he would remain a serial cheater.... not at all. Their relationship was formed as such ( wrong, but true) and I am a believer that simply because your relationship with one person is a certain way - it does not mean it will be the same with another. It is a mountain and I do mean mountain to climb to even begin to have a healthy relationship after that. To find out almost 6 months into discovery that he is stilling not only talking but sharing his love for his OW with her. Well, I wouldn't have stayed to begin with.... but there are not enough tears in the world to have me stay through that. That isn't love - it is dependence and fear and I am not referring to the financial kind.
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