Myowntwofeet Posted June 4, 2010 Posted June 4, 2010 Why is it when someone says something...others jump and say "that's simply not true". Why must others insist they know everything or are always right. I am referring to Jennie's comment. The truth, similar to Jennie - We NEVER spoke of her, he NEVER bad mouthed her and YES, I would not have allowed it or thought highly of him had he EVER spoke poorly of her. Our relationship ( right or wrong) was ours. We spoke of his family ( the kids, his parents, his siblings, his life and my life... not his wife. Again, usually found in LTA that are emotional and physical. He was considering a future with me, and the truth - I don't think he would pick a women if she was a "must badmouth" the spouse. We feel in love, it was not intentional, we did not mean to hurt people and he has paid by doing the "right thing" and staying. YES, he loves her.... but it is not the same, nor do I believe it is necessarily the right thing for anyone of us (including the wife). In it.... I was in a relationship with a Married Man - my relationship with him was mine - her marriage with her husband was hers. In it, I did not have guilt - In the aftermath - I felt terrible for her pain - Today I am 100% positive he has told her he loved me, she knows we were waiting for his daughters to finish school, she knows I was not hidden and met his friends, she knows that months later he was still contacting me and still struggling with loving us both, but feeling obligated to the family. I don't feel sorry for her. We are all adults -she is no longer a victim - she has all the facts and chooses to stay with a man who's heart has truly been with someone else. That is her choice and none of us (including myself are victims) any longer.
jennie-jennie Posted June 4, 2010 Posted June 4, 2010 Clearly we're different in HOW we love. I love my wife well beyond any other person in the world. I don't love her and focus only on that love to the point where I don't give a damn about what happens to anyone else. I think we're just different kinds of people. I'm ALWAYS aware of others around me, and very cognizant of how my choices and actions impact others, especially in situations where someone else may well be hurt by what I do. I've been in a position where I've "been in love" with my best friend's girlfriend...many, many, many years ago as a young man. Even then...I took no action...because it didn't take a rocket scientist to tell me that there'd be a hell of a lot of pain if I did. And I do not regret that choice. Love may be selfish...but my actions don't have to be. I too am very considerate of others, but not to the point of not caring for myself. If I and another woman (who in this case happens to be the wife) love and desire the same man, and he loves and desires me, then why would I not accept his love? I have as much right as any woman to be loved. I think it is more about different perspectives than us being different kinds of people, Owl.
Myowntwofeet Posted June 4, 2010 Posted June 4, 2010 If they were attached to someone else, well, then, buh-bye. That is the difference I think. I *believe that a marriage certificate is not a guarantee for an attachment, nor is it ownership as some view it. I never dated a MM prior to mine and certainly don't go looking for them; however if there was this "so called attachment" they would be unavailable. Therefore.... no problem. .
Author Spark1111 Posted June 4, 2010 Author Posted June 4, 2010 I too am very considerate of others, but not to the point of not caring for myself. If I and another woman (who in this case happens to be the wife) love and desire the same man, and he loves and desires me, then why would I not accept his love? I have as much right as any woman to be loved. I think it is more about different perspectives than us being different kinds of people, Owl. Jennie, I am not talking of love, or morality or right and wrong. But do you believe you have more right than the spouse who has born his children, washed his shirts, held his hand sick, or struggled with him to pay the bills? Of course you have a right as a woman to be loved. But do you believe you have more of a right than she? See, I think that is where my inherent empathy kicks in. My love for another cannot hurt someone unsuspecting.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 4, 2010 Author Posted June 4, 2010 That is the difference I think. I *believe that a marriage certificate is not a guarantee for an attachment, nor is it ownership as some view it. I never dated a MM prior to mine and certainly don't go looking for them; however if there was this "so called attachment" they would be unavailable. Therefore.... no problem. . And if he found another OW, and she was willing, would that be okay with you too? To have him stop returning your calls, saying he was re-committing to the marriage, but had really found another mistress. Would you still adhere to the relationship attachment theory, one where there was once love and trust and passion like yours, but now he has found another? Wouldn't some part of you wonder about his empathy for you and your relationship? Wouldn't you wonder about the other OW's too?
Author Spark1111 Posted June 4, 2010 Author Posted June 4, 2010 It's the empathy, or lack of, for another human being that just baffles me. As we hear, lots, it was the MP responsibility to not hurt their BS, the OW/OM has no responsibility. I cannot get my head around this, as when D Day happened, I had nothing but empathy for the OW, told H not to badmouth her, thought it disrespectful and unnecessary. I am from good old Quaker, Unitarian stock, although I am not religious, I was brought up to not do harm to another, it is my code, my absolute. Me too! I only had empathy for a single mother, apparently more than she ever had for me. My husband never bad-mouthed me to her, or her to me. I would have not allowed it. But I do know the stage has to be set somehow, and I'm sure he talked of our emotional disconnect, blah, blah, blah. Too bad, because he should have been talking to me. THAT would have been empathetic to me. I simply cannot imagine making my mind up to, planning to, corroborating with another to, hurt someone else, irrespective of my own needs, wants, desires. It just doesn't compute with me. This is my issue too. In my single years, I had many married men hit on me, some I really, really could have had a long relationship with some, some would have been fun, - BUT, just couldn't do it to another woman, one left his wife because he thought I would then go out with him if he was single. I explained that of course I seemed exciting, fun, had time to listen to him, had no stretch marks, wasn't tired, never saw his faults, I just had me to look after, not his kids, life, etc etc and sent him home to try and work it out. he was the one other person other than H who I think could have been a soul mate. BUT, just couldn't do it and took the blame for luring her H away when she found out he was asking me out, rather than hurt her. I don't know if it means that people who don't have empathy and enter A's have lower morals, that's their choice, their conscience, but I just know my moral compass directs me on a different course. As a single working woman, the attention and offers were rediculous at times. Some were very, very attractive. One was an acquaintance of my husband's who propositioned me pregnant! I refused to ever see he or his wife again. My heart broke for HER. Just the way I'm made, I guess.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 I agree with you and Owl, Spark - especially as it relates to Infidelity. I have a girlfriend that regularly complains to me about her H and the state of their marriage. Which is dangerous for her because I am not the only one she does it with and its led to numerous women using her to get to her H knowing what she complains about. These women befriend her to hear her complaints and then use it against her. They say its because she obviously doesn't want or love him. But I disagree. She loves and desires him very much, she just wants and needs more from him than he gives sometimes. I guess I also agree with Carhill, that too much empathy is a double-edged sword. For some, its very hard to find a balance there. Then your friend should be a) talking to her husband and b) both should be talking to a counselor. Your friends can only help so much, I think, and over time, resentment may grow and your friend could be very ripe for an affair. Do you agree NID?
Author Spark1111 Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 I think there may be a lack of empathy all the way around in affair situations -- and I'm not just talking about the lack of empathy a WS feels toward their BS. Just reading this board makes me realize how much many people in general lack in empathy at times. Other times they seem filled with it. I'm sure its somewhat situational and based on what the particular person has experienced in their own life. As I've said many times, a marriage involves two people. When someone has an affair they make a selfish decision, but it does not indicate they have antisocial personality disorder or that they are totally lacking in empathy for their spouse, the antichrist, etc. Sam, I cannot think of any act that shows less empathy than to engage in an affair. Was your husband at least 50 percent responsible for the state of the relationship pre-affair? Weren't you? What steps were taken to improve the relationship pre-affair? Either you or he or both? I am not talking morality, or selfish decisions, or personality disorders. I am talking of empathy.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 I totally agree with this. I am so sick of things so black and white. Although I can admit that I did lack empathy when I engaged in a revenge A, but my H brought that one on himself. It does take two. LD, this sounds like you are still angry and blame him for your actions. It sounds like justification to me, and I know that it not how you truly feel about your actions. It is never black and white or right or wrong for me, though it may be for some.
Myowntwofeet Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 And if he found another OW, and she was willing, would that be okay with you too? To have him stop returning your calls, saying he was re-committing to the marriage, but had really found another mistress. Would you still adhere to the relationship attachment theory, one where there was once love and trust and passion like yours, but now he has found another? Wouldn't some part of you wonder about his empathy for you and your relationship? Wouldn't you wonder about the other OW's too? Spark, you will probably not like my answer but it is honest. If he went outside our relationship with another than I would have no choice but to admit we did not have what we thought. It is simple... but goes against those that stay in a marriage so not popular. I have lived on the * other side only once but it has not changed my views and I was always honest with him in that. I don't buy the whole " intimate love - having an affair" IF someone is cheating on you - you do NOT have an intimate relationship... intimacy is more than sex and honestly - it is the actual mental relationship -that is what is most important. I am sure I could recover a one night stand, I am also 100% certain I would choose not to recover a LTA ( that to me is anything more than an obliterated ons) If you can consciously make a decision to be intimate with another - We do not have "love", not in the true sense. It doesn't follow a reconciling BS theory - but it is my truth. If he really loved, respected and honored his wife.... he wouldn't have had an affair. To me, it is cut and dry. He can "love" similar to that of a family member but he can not be in an intimate love relationship and still carry on an affair. It is not popular, but in my opinion it is his choice to demean the wife ( or person he is cheating on) and no sorry in the world would change that. In that relationship he/her is capable and should they have any "reason" they will embark again. period. (in my opinion) So ... the question - would I expect empathy. NO. Certainly not from the OW who owes me nothing. From him, I would expect the truth - if I got it in a round about way - then I would have a choice to make. If I choose to stay for whatever reason - that is a empowered choice and no one should feel empathy for a choice I consciously made. I understand the confused feelings, I can relate to the pain ( and I certainly did) but I will not take away the power to choose and the responsibility to own that choice. As I said - I no longer have empathy for the XMM W. I can relate to her pain and I understand it - but at the end of the day - she choose to stay with the knowledge of the truth. If it crumbles, if he strays again - there is no empathy for her, nor would I expect any if the tables were turned.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 That's how my options look to me, too, Owl. I know a lot of single moms, who don't feel they have the choice to be selfish in their romantic relationships. They have the emotional wellbeing of their children to consider. They may get "swept away" in feelings, but manage to stay grounded in action. If it is possible for them, it is possible for all of us. The difference is motivation. Most of us are strongly motivated by empathy for our children; fewer of us are strongly motivated by empathy for fellow adults that our relationship will hurt. Why do you think that is, xxoo? Why would fewer of you have less empathy for fellow adults that your relationship would hurt?
Author Spark1111 Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 Spark, you will probably not like my answer but it is honest. If he went outside our relationship with another than I would have no choice but to admit we did not have what we thought. It is simple... but goes against those that stay in a marriage so not popular. I have lived on the * other side only once but it has not changed my views and I was always honest with him in that. I don't buy the whole " intimate love - having an affair" IF someone is cheating on you - you do NOT have an intimate relationship... intimacy is more than sex and honestly - it is the actual mental relationship -that is what is most important. I am sure I could recover a one night stand, I am also 100% certain I would choose not to recover a LTA ( that to me is anything more than an obliterated ons) If you can consciously make a decision to be intimate with another - We do not have "love", not in the true sense. It doesn't follow a reconciling BS theory - but it is my truth. If he really loved, respected and honored his wife.... he wouldn't have had an affair. To me, it is cut and dry. He can "love" similar to that of a family member but he can not be in an intimate love relationship and still carry on an affair. It is not popular, but in my opinion it is his choice to demean the wife ( or person he is cheating on) and no sorry in the world would change that. In that relationship he/her is capable and should they have any "reason" they will embark again. period. (in my opinion) So ... the question - would I expect empathy. NO. Certainly not from the OW who owes me nothing. From him, I would expect the truth - if I got it in a round about way - then I would have a choice to make. If I choose to stay for whatever reason - that is a empowered choice and no one should feel empathy for a choice I consciously made. I understand the confused feelings, I can relate to the pain ( and I certainly did) but I will not take away the power to choose and the responsibility to own that choice. As I said - I no longer have empathy for the XMM W. I can relate to her pain and I understand it - but at the end of the day - she choose to stay with the knowledge of the truth. If it crumbles, if he strays again - there is no empathy for her, nor would I expect any if the tables were turned. Well, I am going to surprise you MOTF and agree with you on this one point: We did not have honesty, intimacy, or whatever physical and emotional connection necessary to sustain the relationship because HE DID CHEAT ON ME for a long time. But I will disagree on this point: I could not make an informed choice because my FWS and his xOW did not empower me with the truth of their relationship to make an empowered decision; to take an action I could own. Why? Why was that? And why didn't that behavior bother his OW? If we are to judge the trustworthiness of a person when their actions match their promises, isn't the deception a sad point between the APs? How is that one factor in the relationship so easily overlooked? We did not have what was necessary to sustain the relationship during the affair. I so agree with you. But why wasn't I given the same opportunity to create it with someone new, too? The deception is hugely unempathetic.
xxoo Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Why do you think that is, xxoo? Why would fewer of you have less empathy for fellow adults that your relationship would hurt? I didn't mean "fewer of us" to imply single moms, if that is what you mean. I'm not a single mom; I just admire how the single moms I know handle their romantic relationships with regard to their kids' emotions, and think it illustrates how we DO have control of these matters with enough motivation. Why do fewer of us (in general) have empathy for fellow adults than for our kids? Because we aren't our brother's (sister's) keeper. Every woman for herself. Dog eat dog. Capitalism, lol. Kinda sucks
Trimmer Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 The truth, similar to Jennie - We NEVER spoke of her, he NEVER bad mouthed her and YES, I would not have allowed it or thought highly of him had he EVER spoke poorly of her. I'm interested, then - if you would have thought poorly of him for badmouthing her, how do you draw a line between that and lying to her about a promise to remain faithful? Why wouldn't that cause you to "not think highly" of him? I too am very considerate of others, but not to the point of not caring for myself. If I and another woman (who in this case happens to be the wife) love and desire the same man, and he loves and desires me, then why would I not accept his love? I have as much right as any woman to be loved. On a level playing field, perhaps yes. But on the playing field where the two of them are wearing rings that say to the world: "We have agreed to be married and to be faithful to one another. Keep out." I believe you are a transgressor, and no, you do not have an equal right to be loved by this man.
Author Spark1111 Posted June 5, 2010 Author Posted June 5, 2010 I didn't mean "fewer of us" to imply single moms, if that is what you mean. I'm not a single mom; I just admire how the single moms I know handle their romantic relationships with regard to their kids' emotions, and think it illustrates how we DO have control of these matters with enough motivation. Why do fewer of us (in general) have empathy for fellow adults than for our kids? Because we aren't our brother's (sister's) keeper. Every woman for herself. Dog eat dog. Capitalism, lol. Kinda sucks Raising children right should be an overwhelming motivator in every strong woman's life, IMO. And I agree that I despise the competitive factors that exist and are fostered among women; smartest kids, best-providing SO, clean house, toned hips. Ugh! Why? I learned in sociology that it is an indication of being the lesser class, lesser in power to men who still control most of the resources. And I vowed to never engage in that insecure activity again; judging women and mothers by rediculous and insecure standards.
fooled once Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Clearly we're different in HOW we love. I love my wife well beyond any other person in the world. I don't love her and focus only on that love to the point where I don't give a damn about what happens to anyone else. I think we're just different kinds of people. I'm ALWAYS aware of others around me, and very cognizant of how my choices and actions impact others, especially in situations where someone else may well be hurt by what I do. I've been in a position where I've "been in love" with my best friend's girlfriend...many, many, many years ago as a young man. Even then...I took no action...because it didn't take a rocket scientist to tell me that there'd be a hell of a lot of pain if I did. And I do not regret that choice. Love may be selfish...but my actions don't have to be. Me too Owl! Why is it when someone says something...others jump and say "that's simply not true". Why must others insist they know everything or are always right. I am referring to Jennie's comment. The truth, similar to Jennie - We NEVER spoke of her, he NEVER bad mouthed her and YES, I would not have allowed it or thought highly of him had he EVER spoke poorly of her. Our relationship ( right or wrong) was ours. We spoke of his family ( the kids, his parents, his siblings, his life and my life... not his wife. Again, usually found in LTA that are emotional and physical. He was considering a future with me, and the truth - I don't think he would pick a women if she was a "must badmouth" the spouse. We feel in love, it was not intentional, we did not mean to hurt people and he has paid by doing the "right thing" and staying. YES, he loves her.... but it is not the same, nor do I believe it is necessarily the right thing for anyone of us (including the wife). In it.... I was in a relationship with a Married Man - my relationship with him was mine - her marriage with her husband was hers. In it, I did not have guilt - In the aftermath - I felt terrible for her pain - Today I am 100% positive he has told her he loved me, she knows we were waiting for his daughters to finish school, she knows I was not hidden and met his friends, she knows that months later he was still contacting me and still struggling with loving us both, but feeling obligated to the family. I don't feel sorry for her. We are all adults -she is no longer a victim - she has all the facts and chooses to stay with a man who's heart has truly been with someone else. That is her choice and none of us (including myself are victims) any longer. She is a victim in the fact that her ball-less husband chose to cheat on her instead of divorcing her. You want to (or need to) believe his heart is with someone else (you) but obviously it isn't since - according to you - she knows about you - yet HE STILL STAYS. What does that say about him? What does that say about your 'love'? Is it the standard "he doesn't believe in divorce" or "he wants to honor his commitments" line because IMHO - those are both rubbish because it is so highly hypocritical .... I can't leave, but I can cheat .... what kind of mentality is that?
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 (edited) Jennie, I am not talking of love, or morality or right and wrong. But do you believe you have more right than the spouse? Of course you have a right as a woman to be loved. But do you believe you have more of a right than she? See, I think that is where my inherent empathy kicks in. My love for another cannot hurt someone unsuspecting. Not more right, but equal right. The decision making factor would be who the man wants. History is history, a marriage contract is a marriage contract, none of those things give one woman more right than another in the present moment. The man might choose to put value on such things, but that is up to the individual man if they affect his love for a woman. Spark, I wonder if we are talking about two different things. I am talking about when the attraction is already a fact, when the chemistry is already there. I would not step back then for the sake of another woman. Have you ever been head over heals with a married man who is head over heals for you? If you have not, I don't think you know whether or not your love could not "hurt someone unsuspecting", whether your inherent empathy is strong enough. To me, there is also a difference what stage of life you are in. When you are 50, you know the opportunities of true love are few and far between. You are not going to let an opportunity for love slip you by just for the sake of being altruistic. Edited June 5, 2010 by jennie-jennie
whichwayisup Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 History is history, a marriage contract is a marriage contract, none of those things give one woman more right than another in the present moment. So you feel you're on exact equal footing as his wife? Even though she's the one who has married him, knows his family, etc, etc, and she is the one who will sit by his side god forbid he ends up in the hospital.. You feel you're on an equal playing field?
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Jennie, I am not talking of love, or morality or right and wrong. But do you believe you have more right than the spouse who has born his children, washed his shirts, held his hand sick, or struggled with him to pay the bills? Of course you have a right as a woman to be loved. But do you believe you have more of a right than she? See, I think that is where my inherent empathy kicks in. My love for another cannot hurt someone unsuspecting. Really weird. The above is Spark's post which I responded to, but it is not identical to her post quoted in my reply #43. See the bolded part.
whichwayisup Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Really weird. The above is Spark's post which I responded to, but it is not identical to her post quoted in my reply #43. See the bolded part. Is it a full moon tonight? That's really weird.. Unless she editted it at some point before you replied to her, or while you were replying to her it got changed.
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 So you feel you're on exact equal footing as his wife? Even though she's the one who has married him, knows his family, etc, etc, and she is the one who will sit by his side god forbid he ends up in the hospital.. You feel you're on an equal playing field? I didn't say equal playing field as we know more than love plays in. Men care about more than love, which is why some men carry on both the marriage and the extramarital relationship. But when it comes to equal right. Yes, I believe we have equal right. Just because she got lucky and met him earlier in life. That is like a child saying "I saw him first."
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Is it a full moon tonight? That's really weird.. Unless she editted it at some point before you replied to her, or while you were replying to her it got changed. I guess my computer might have stored some cached version of the page since yesterday?
jennie-jennie Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 And if he found another OW, and she was willing, would that be okay with you too? To have him stop returning your calls, saying he was re-committing to the marriage, but had really found another mistress. Would you still adhere to the relationship attachment theory, one where there was once love and trust and passion like yours, but now he has found another? Wouldn't some part of you wonder about his empathy for you and your relationship? Wouldn't you wonder about the other OW's too? If my MM moved on to another OW or if my husband moved on to another woman, I would certainly not wonder about his empathy for me, because I would not want a relationship based on empathy. Yuch.
whichwayisup Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 I didn't say equal playing field as we know more than love plays in. Men care about more than love, which is why some men carry on both the marriage and the extramarital relationship. But when it comes to equal right. Yes, I believe we have equal right. Just because she got lucky and met him earlier in life. That is like a child saying "I saw him first." I don't understand this way of thinking, but if it works for you .. I mean that respectfully. If a D-Day happens, everything will change. All I can say is, don't put all your eggs in one (his) basket.
whichwayisup Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 I guess my computer might have stored some cached version of the page since yesterday? It's possible. I'm curious now.. Copy and paste it, send it to Tony through PM, see what he says.
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