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Can you REALLY love your spouse, without a sexual relationship?

schro31185

By schro31185
in Marriage and Life Partnerships

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carhill Established Member

carhill

Posted
Posted

Some people see sex like a sandwich. Pastrami on rye. Tastes good going down. Then done. They go back to the same sandwich shop regularly and order 'the usual'.

 

*Some* people. That's OK :)

TaraMaiden Established Member

TaraMaiden

Posted
Posted (edited)
..... but still she hasn't explained what happens when the low drive partner refuses point blank to have sex with the other partner when the sex drives are disproportionately different... are we really suppose to go with no sex for the rest of our life?

 

That depends on how vitally important sex really is to you. if you know things are not going to significantly change, and that having and getting sex is always going to be a challenge, struggle, issue, bone of contention.... then really - you have a choice:

Is this absence important enough for me to find it elsewhere, and therefore end the marriage?

Is this absence sufficiently insignificant for me to bite the bullet and therefore stay in the relationship?

 

That's the bottom line, really, isn't it?

because the way things seem to be panning out in this discussion, is that:

 

Even if a compromise is made, and the "less willing" partner does concede to have sex even if they don't want to - it's an unwillingness on their part to do so, even if they're making the effort for the other person.

or:

Even if a compromise is made, and the "more willing" partner does concede to NOT have sex even if they want to - it's an unwillingness on their part to do so, even if they're making the effort for the other person.

 

Whichever 'person's needs' get answered, the other side is not entirely happy about that.

So what's the answer?

it's simple.

Get it somewhere else - with the partner's consent.

Get it somewhere else, after splitting up.

Don't get it - but stay.

 

 

I have always said, and will always maintain, and will continue to say:

Human beings are not designed to be monogamous.

I really believe that agreeing to stay with one person for as long as you both shall live' is an unrealistic demand to put on anyone.

Sex, desire, passion are natural instincts. Fidelity and cleaving to one person only - is a choice.

But within that choice, please, people should know from the outset: There are no guarantees of cohesion all the way down the line! Why do people assume or expect that it will be like this?

When you consider how much people change over their lives, why should this be a constant? Why should we demand or expect it to be so - ?

 

What Tara would do in this situation? Has Tara ever found herself in this situation? Has Tara ever been a man to understand this plight? :D

Tara has been - and is - a woman, and has known this for a lot longer than I'd care to mention.

 

What you are describing is very different from what the OP and the title is asking:

Yes, you're right, I get that. but the way people are speaking here, even sporadic sex is equivalent to no sex, for some. A celibate relationship is classified as one where sex occurs less that 6 times a year. So I was advised by a psychosexual counsellor of my acquaintance. (not my counsellor, I hasten to add. Actually, a colleague who put me forward and sponsored me to train as a counsellor myself)....

 

Tara, do you believe the situation he is describing is comparable to you own? Are you sure you'd be just as happy in the relationship the OP is describing?

been there, done it. 20 years of it. Lived with it.

What broke it, was not the lack of sex.

We split up for entirely different and unassociated and unconnected reasons.

 

But there are other options. If someone (as the op seems to be describing) REALLY loves their partner, but has no interest in a sexual relationship (seemingly permanently...not talking about a temporary illness or pregnancy recovery)---and resents the partner desiring a physical, sexual relationshp....that LOVE would require that the partner's needs are seriously considered. If it were me, I'd encourage my partner to get sexual needs met outside the marriage. I love him too much to ever force him into celibacy against his own wishes.

I completely agree with this.

completely.

Providing the sex is 'safe' and done wisely, and not indiscriminately or foolishly, I think this is a viable option, and one that should be taken into consideration much more than it is.

 

a bit of self-sacrifice is one thing - anyone can do "a bit". However, day after day, month after month, year after year with no sex is another kettle of fish altogether.

Meh, you'd be surprised what you can do when you practice acceptance and live with it.

 

What if OK for you is once a week and OK for your partner is once a year? Compromise mean compromise - that is in both give something, not the "I don't want sex and you can't make me" side always getting their way, either. Sure, the low-sex drive person doesn't want to feel like there's something wrong with them, but neither does the high sex drive person!!! Do you have any idea what it feels like to want to have sex with the person you love and have them avoid your very touch? Let me tell you, it sucks.

yes, I do know what it's like. And it only sucks if you let that get in the way of how much more important the relationship is. even without the sex. If sex becomes all-encompassing and uppermost - then something else is suffering.

 

Against their will??? They got married. If they weren't interested in sex, they should have been up front about it in the beginning - in other words BEFORE they engaged their now partner into a life that is NOT what was expected.

Please read my comment above, with regard to people expecting their partners to never change within a relationship.

Nobody ever, ever says "I do" at the altar, with the express plan or intention of depriving their partner of sex further down the line.

Please be realistic!

If they weren't interested in sex BEFORE they got married, their partner would have known it, wouldn't they? in that case, the more willing partner was a schmuck - or schmuckess - to marry them anyway!

It's ok, s/he doesn't want sex, but once the ring is on the finger, we'll go at it like rabbits! It'll be fine!"

 

yeah. Right.

 

 

So, yes. They should sometimes have sex when they aren't all that up for it. They are expecting their partner to never have sex against their will.

 

This is a stupid and antiquated, redundant attitude.

Did you know that rape is illegal, even within a marriage?

because if one partner is unwilling, and only has sex because their partner wants it, this could be construed as coercion.

Tell me why exactly, you feel a person should permit anything to happen to themselves against their will?

 

If I knew my partner was having sex with me, simply because he felt it was his duty to, it would sap me completely. I'd hate him to do that for me. I'd want him to have sex with me, because he desires me and wants to, not because he just want's to give in.

yuk.

Give me the alternative every time.

Why have sex with someone who you know is just not into it?

or possibly - perish the thought - no longer in to you?

 

It happens, you know.

Both women and men, for varied reasons, change tastes and stop fancying their partner.

if you stop desiring that person, it's hard to summon up desire.

Edited by TaraMaiden
Toodamnpragmatic Established Member

Toodamnpragmatic

Posted
Posted
I didn't get through very many of the replies before I stared getting frustrated. I understand why you are concerned about this being an issue. You love your wife and want to express it physically. I am totally sure your wife loves you just the same. Maybe she is going through something mentally/emotionally you are unaware of, maybe she isn't being fulfilled like she would like, maybe your relationship is lacking intimacy.

Men, please try to understand women are complicated.... try talking to your wife, like REALLY talking to her, asking her if there is anything that she needs. I'm sure she would really appreciate it. When you talk to her try to focus on her, not just the fact that your sex life has diminished. I speak from experience, my husband and I went through this, when he finally came to me loving and caring and really focused on me, I felt so special and so wonderful and cared for our relationship took a drastic turn for the better :)

 

How many times do we have to hear this rhetoric.....:mad:

Samantha0905 Established Member

Samantha0905

Posted
Posted
How many times do we have to hear this rhetoric.....:mad:

 

Until you listen. :laugh: Why is that concept so hard to understand?

Toodamnpragmatic Established Member

Toodamnpragmatic

Posted
Posted
Until you listen. :laugh: Why is that concept so hard to understand?

me male, don't know how to listen and just want sex.....;)

 

Why is it so difficult to understand that many of us have done all those things that are beaten in to our brains and it just does not change, regardless of what we do.......:mad:

TaraMaiden Established Member

TaraMaiden

Posted
Posted

So your choice now, is to look at the viable options, given that everything you've done so far, isn't working.

 

Here they are:

 

Find someone to have sex with on a casual basis, with the knowledge, consent and approval of your partner.

 

If that's not an option....

 

Find someone to have sex with on a casual basis, having first separated/divorced your partner.

 

If that's not an option.....

 

Suck it up, grin and bear it, and accept it, find the happiness within your relationship, knowing that whatever/whomsoever you might find to replace it, you'll actually never find someone as wonderful as your partner, and nothing would come close.

 

If this final option contains flaws, revisit one & two......

 

 

Do you have anything else that could be added, that you haven't already tried, that hasn't failed?

EnigmasMuse Established Member

EnigmasMuse

Posted
Posted
me male, don't know how to listen and just want sex.....;)

 

Why is it so difficult to understand that many of us have done all those things that are beaten in to our brains and it just does not change, regardless of what we do.......:mad:

 

 

Its not difficult to understand especially for those who have read before that you and whoever else have tried all things and nothing works. However, there might be some people who have not seen or read you have tried all things.

 

I have read too, where there have been people who have answered questions before about...when someone is getting no sex or lack of, and that spouse has tried everything, I have seen people give you and whoever else answers/suggestions.

 

So while you're going off the deep end about why is it so difficult to understand, maybe you should ask yourself why is it so difficult to understand that you and others have been given suggestions before? And if you have tried those too, then I guess you're left with accept it or move on. Because I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for.

soserious1 Established Member

soserious1

Posted
Posted
So your choice now, is to look at the viable options, given that everything you've done so far, isn't working.

 

Here they are:

 

Find someone to have sex with on a casual basis, with the knowledge, consent and approval of your partner.

 

If that's not an option....

 

Find someone to have sex with on a casual basis, having first separated/divorced your partner.

 

If that's not an option.....

 

Suck it up, grin and bear it, and accept it, find the happiness within your relationship, knowing that whatever/whomsoever you might find to replace it, you'll actually never find someone as wonderful as your partner, and nothing would come close.

 

If this final option contains flaws, revisit one & two......

 

 

Do you have anything else that could be added, that you haven't already tried, that hasn't failed?

 

 

I chose to leave, to divorce, being expected to act warm,loving, supportive in a sexless marriage wasn't something I'd signed up for. If I were to get involved in another LTR it would be made crystal clear that lack of sexual intimacy (barring illness, injury) is a deal breaker.

 

If I want to live a celibate life with another person I'll get a roomate.

TaraMaiden Established Member

TaraMaiden

Posted
Posted
I chose to leave, to divorce, being expected to act warm,loving, supportive in a sexless marriage wasn't something I'd signed up for.

Well, barring imprisonment or clear and evident circumstances, do you know anybody who wilfully does?

 

If I were to get involved in another LTR it would be made crystal clear that lack of sexual intimacy (barring illness, injury) is a deal breaker.

Right, so you would get a form of pre-nup signed, and make sure that you would have sex, when you want it, and that your sex life would be satisfying and gratifying for the remainder of your days with your partner.

 

Any loopholes you'd care to consider, at all?

How about if you for one reason or another, go off sex? What's in it for him?

 

If I want to live a celibate life with another person I'll get a roomate

Plenty of people do.

You don't. so that's a ridiculous option to consider.

Which leaves the above.

How do you think that would work for you?

 

You think this is always an obvious and clear choice?

You think sex is - and should be - and has to be - a given?

soserious1 Established Member

soserious1

Posted
Posted (edited)
Well, barring imprisonment or clear and evident circumstances, do you know anybody who wilfully does?

 

 

Right, so you would get a form of pre-nup signed, and make sure that you would have sex, when you want it, and that your sex life would be satisfying and gratifying for the remainder of your days with your partner.

 

Any loopholes you'd care to consider, at all?

How about if you for one reason or another, go off sex? What's in it for him?

 

 

Plenty of people do.

You don't. so that's a ridiculous option to consider.

Which leaves the above.

How do you think that would work for you?

 

You think this is always an obvious and clear choice?

You think sex is - and should be - and has to be - a given?

 

 

Yes, I expect that sexual intimacy will be a REGULAR part

of a ROMANTIC relationship. Obviously if there will be compromises at times but those adjustments will need to come from BOTH parties. Being expected to sit there and happily accept a partner's unilateral decision that our relationship will be sexless while expecting me to remain

faithful is not an option.

 

If I want a loving sexless relationship I'll get a dog or a roomate.

 

Btw, if I should happen to "go off sex" I'd try to quickly figure out what the problem is.. if it's clearly MY issue, I'm certainly

not going to punish a loving partner for it, I can find the good in being physically intimate a few times a week even if I'm not

bowled over with intense lust.

Edited by soserious1
Toodamnpragmatic Established Member

Toodamnpragmatic

Posted
Posted
Its not difficult to understand especially for those who have read before that you and whoever else have tried all things and nothing works. However, there might be some people who have not seen or read you have tried all things.

 

I have read too, where there have been people who have answered questions before about...when someone is getting no sex or lack of, and that spouse has tried everything, I have seen people give you and whoever else answers/suggestions.

 

So while you're going off the deep end about why is it so difficult to understand, maybe you should ask yourself why is it so difficult to understand that you and others have been given suggestions before? And if you have tried those too, then I guess you're left with accept it or move on. Because I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for.

 

I have a good relationship that is far from "sexless".... What I gripe about is first the OP has gone offside yet again with people talking about sexless marriages, not the post "Can you REALLY love your spouse, without a sexual relationship?"

 

Sorry always women (95%) who then explain that we (men) aren't listening or doing what is necessary to foster a sexual relationship, or at times, "tough luck" thems the breaks and there is going to be no sex.....

 

Surprisingly James hasn't piped in (vacation?), but mem (with some valid points) and Giotto have....

 

We do talk, and we DO LISTEN and please note not one man has posted here asking whether their wife LISTENS. We claim also to be good fathers and have/did/do work hard at our marriages and never think of cheating......

 

No I am not perfect, but am off now to finish the dishes, get the coffee maker ready for tomorrow morning, do dessert and get ready for the week....:):D:laugh: Heck if need be, I'll listen to whatever my spouse has to say too....

mem11363 Established Member

mem11363

Posted
Posted

TM,

Were you in a LTR with someone you weren't very attracted to?

 

 

 

Well, barring imprisonment or clear and evident circumstances, do you know anybody who wilfully does?

 

 

Right, so you would get a form of pre-nup signed, and make sure that you would have sex, when you want it, and that your sex life would be satisfying and gratifying for the remainder of your days with your partner.

 

Any loopholes you'd care to consider, at all?

How about if you for one reason or another, go off sex? What's in it for him?

 

 

Plenty of people do.

You don't. so that's a ridiculous option to consider.

Which leaves the above.

How do you think that would work for you?

 

You think this is always an obvious and clear choice?

You think sex is - and should be - and has to be - a given?

mem11363 Established Member

mem11363

Posted
Posted

I am going to answer the question as asked. I ABSOLUTELY could love my spouse if she did not have sex with me as long as she loved me enough to accept that I would be discreetly getting my needs met outside the marriage.

 

I could NOT really love her if she lost her desire for me AND was adamant I remain celibate.

 

 

I have a good relationship that is far from "sexless".... What I gripe about is first the OP has gone offside yet again with people talking about sexless marriages, not the post "Can you REALLY love your spouse, without a sexual relationship?"

 

Sorry always women (95%) who then explain that we (men) aren't listening or doing what is necessary to foster a sexual relationship, or at times, "tough luck" thems the breaks and there is going to be no sex.....

 

Surprisingly James hasn't piped in (vacation?), but mem (with some valid points) and Giotto have....

 

We do talk, and we DO LISTEN and please note not one man has posted here asking whether their wife LISTENS. We claim also to be good fathers and have/did/do work hard at our marriages and never think of cheating......

 

No I am not perfect, but am off now to finish the dishes, get the coffee maker ready for tomorrow morning, do dessert and get ready for the week....:):D:laugh: Heck if need be, I'll listen to whatever my spouse has to say too....

xxoo Established Member

xxoo

Posted
Posted
I am going to answer the question as asked. I ABSOLUTELY could love my spouse if she did not have sex with me as long as she loved me enough to accept that I would be discreetly getting my needs met outside the marriage.

 

I could NOT really love her if she lost her desire for me AND was adamant I remain celibate.

 

I feel the same, mem.

 

But I phrased it from a different pov. I phrased it from the pov of ME losing my drive, and giving my spouse that choice out of love. Do you feel the same in that situation? Would you love your spouse enough to give her that option in that unlikely situation?

 

Also, when I think about it, I wonder what the impact of that "permission" would be. I wonder if just knowing that my partner valued my needs that much...that my partner was giving me freedom to be wholy who I am....if I would be likely to seek that outside sexual satisfaction, or stay home and meet my own need--satisfied that it is truly my own choice to not go outside the marriage. Does that make sense? I'm wondering if the permission would reduce the need.

TaraMaiden Established Member

TaraMaiden

Posted
Posted
TM,

Were you in a LTR with someone you weren't very attracted to?

Yes.

It was mutual, as it turned out. You're welcome to PM me if you want, but it's not up for discussion here.

 

Would you love your spouse enough to give her that option in that unlikely situation?

I did precisely this. And so did he. He 'strayed' once or twice. Maybe three times. I didn't.

 

Also, when I think about it, I wonder what the impact of that "permission" would be. I wonder if just knowing that my partner valued my needs that much...that my partner was giving me freedom to be wholy who I am....if I would be likely to seek that outside sexual satisfaction, or stay home and meet my own need--satisfied that it is truly my own choice to not go outside the marriage. Does that make sense? I'm wondering if the permission would reduce the need.

 

I have found, in my experience, that when a couple are unmarried, often the moral commitment and obligation to remain faithful seems to be stronger, than in a marital legally "enforced" one. I have no idea why this should be.

maybe it's the fact that in an unmarried relationship, there is the subconscious underlying thought of "I could walk if I wanted to, but I'm not going to because that would be unfair" and in a marriage there is the "I didn't know this would happen, I feel cornered and trapped, and need to spread my wings, because I need to eventually end this"....

 

I honestly have no idea, the above is hypothesis.

All I know is that sexual attraction, desire and need is complicated because ultimately, we make it so.

We choose to get anxious about it, and it becomes a fulcrum upon which the relationship pivots.

I think rather than ask whether one can love a spouse without a sexual relationship, one might re-phrase the question and ask "why is it so important I have a sexual relationship with my spouse in order to love them?"

giotto Established Member

giotto

Posted
Posted

my wife said she understood if I wanted to divorce her... she never offered me the "outside" alternative...

EnigmasMuse Established Member

EnigmasMuse

Posted
Posted
I have a good relationship that is far from "sexless".... What I gripe about is first the OP has gone offside yet again with people talking about sexless marriages, not the post "Can you REALLY love your spouse, without a sexual relationship?"

 

Sorry always women (95%) who then explain that we (men) aren't listening or doing what is necessary to foster a sexual relationship, or at times, "tough luck" thems the breaks and there is going to be no sex.....

 

Surprisingly James hasn't piped in (vacation?), but mem (with some valid points) and Giotto have....

 

We do talk, and we DO LISTEN and please note not one man has posted here asking whether their wife LISTENS. We claim also to be good fathers and have/did/do work hard at our marriages and never think of cheating......

 

No I am not perfect, but am off now to finish the dishes, get the coffee maker ready for tomorrow morning, do dessert and get ready for the week....:):D:laugh: Heck if need be, I'll listen to whatever my spouse has to say too....

 

I get it. You've done it/tried it all. I don't know what else to say, other than take a deep breath and calm down. Your post(s) screams, you're frustrated and overwhelmed. Never said you didn't have a right to be, but really, deep breath. It's like you're consumed, maybe thats part of the problem.

Toodamnpragmatic Established Member

Toodamnpragmatic

Posted
Posted
I get it. You've done it/tried it all. I don't know what else to say, other than take a deep breath and calm down. Your post(s) screams, you're frustrated and overwhelmed. Never said you didn't have a right to be, but really, deep breath. It's like you're consumed, maybe thats part of the problem.

 

It is the posts that I find so frustrating, where we keep beating the dead horse over and over and say the same thing. Women continually telling men to listen, really listen and not to do what they think a woman wants but what she needs, give the emotional support, that love is 99% in the mind, learn to read her body language/cues, or that she just doesn't want to anymore, or that she no longer desires you, you don't cherish her or make her feel special, that you need to be more alpha/beta, treat every day like it is still your second/third dates, blah blah blah.....

 

The list never ends.

 

Not obsessed with sex (more so then most males), may be with LS:p, but it just seems to be white noise to me......

EnigmasMuse Established Member

EnigmasMuse

Posted
Posted

I'm sure that is frustrating for you to hear continually. Since its Women who mainly chime on and on, are there any men here who have said the same things they have?

 

Maybe some of them sound like a broken record because they are at a loss as to what to say to, if you have tried it all and still nothing is working. Its probably frustrating on both ends I would imagine.

Toodamnpragmatic Established Member

Toodamnpragmatic

Posted
Posted
I'm sure that is frustrating for you to hear continually. Since its Women who mainly chime on and on, are there any men here who have said the same things they have?

 

Maybe some of them sound like a broken record because they are at a loss as to what to say to, if you have tried it all and still nothing is working. Its probably frustrating on both ends I would imagine.

 

If you look at my first post on this thread it was the frustration that the thread was going offside with someone starting the sexless marriage responses, not addressing the intent or question in the thread.

 

Trust me, all okay on my front.... or at least a much better compromise.....;)

xxoo Established Member

xxoo

Posted
Posted

Trust me, all okay on my front.... or at least a much better compromise.....;)

 

Great news!

 

What changed? Any advice for the masses?

giotto Established Member

giotto

Posted
Posted
Great news!

 

What changed? Any advice for the masses?

 

I think TDP has always had a fairly satisfactory frequency... not as much as he would like, but definitely not a sexless marriage... in fact, I'm pretty much envious... :D

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schro31185 Member

schro31185

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I am going to answer the question as asked. I ABSOLUTELY could love my spouse if she did not have sex with me as long as she loved me enough to accept that I would be discreetly getting my needs met outside the marriage.

 

I could NOT really love her if she lost her desire for me AND was adamant I remain celibate.

 

Thank you.

 

My situation may not exactly be sexless, but I would say it is without intimacy. I feel trapped. I am a 25 year old male with a healthy appetite for sex, with a beautiful wife, who I am very attracted to physically. Like I stated earlier, sometimes she gives in to my desires, but nearly never has her own, and has been the case for all of the 5 years of our marriage. After trying all sorts of things I heard, or read about, and everything she suggested, and seeing them all fail, I have finally reached the point where I am questioning the love. I don't know if seeking any type of extramarital relationship would really help in my case, I love my wife, and sex is part of that. I don't know that I could really separate the two into loving my wife, and fulfilling the sexual part of our relationship with another person. I have tried with porn, which she resents, and doesn't help me that much either. Though its been a better option than simply going without.

 

I think part of this realization has come about because I used to be able to just look at her, and want to jump on the sack with her. Or a simple conversation, giving her a massage etc.. could lead to that. Now, I don't get those feelings nearly as much unless she is unclothed, or in a provocative suggestive position (which I believe has little to do with love, and mostly lust). I think with this happening to me, I have come to a little more of an understanding of what she is feeling. And to me it seems like the love is being lost. Obviously the situation is self degenerating.

 

I guess I am just looking to see if a recovery can be made from this point. If there is some other thing that could be done to re-ignite the fire after all this time. (please see my other posts before suggesting something like going on dates, helping around the house etc..) Has someone else been in a similar situation? Was love still there?

Toodamnpragmatic Established Member

Toodamnpragmatic

Posted
Posted (edited)
Great news!

 

What changed? Any advice for the masses?

 

Talk about it less and stop complaining (ha ha ha).... Read LS, thinking I had a terribly bad relationship (sex-wise) and realize how lucky I am comparatively. Don't obsess and address sex in a light-hearted manner, not pressuring your spouse. Sadly come to the understanding it will never be exactly to your liking (frankly I really never have had an idea what would be ideal for me), but a compromise you can live with. Be thankful your spouse is still incredibly sexy, and that there are still opportunities ahead. Be hopeful things will continue to improve as kids are all out of our beds, older and have sleepovers/late nights out. Be especially grateful that the equipment works for both parties. Make an effort to maintain your appearance too.....

 

Really no advise, just the regular that many of us have read or posted before.

 

And most importantly let out your frustration on LS not on your spouse.....:p;)

Edited by Toodamnpragmatic
mem11363 Established Member

mem11363

Posted
Posted

XXOO,

You are truly a giver. That is an incredible trait in a mate.

 

OK - I would give her permission - but - full disclaimer - even thinking about it makes me feel sick. And I really am not a jealous guy. I haven't had a "jealous moment" with her ever. But that would be REALLY hard. Still - I would do it for her, I would just pray she didn't leave me.

 

Like you - I agree that being given permission to go outside - might be enough by itself for me to "not" go outside. Like you - the offer would mean a LOT to me - maybe enough. Probably depends on the exact situation.

 

I feel the same, mem.

 

But I phrased it from a different pov. I phrased it from the pov of ME losing my drive, and giving my spouse that choice out of love. Do you feel the same in that situation? Would you love your spouse enough to give her that option in that unlikely situation?

 

Also, when I think about it, I wonder what the impact of that "permission" would be. I wonder if just knowing that my partner valued my needs that much...that my partner was giving me freedom to be wholy who I am....if I would be likely to seek that outside sexual satisfaction, or stay home and meet my own need--satisfied that it is truly my own choice to not go outside the marriage. Does that make sense? I'm wondering if the permission would reduce the need.

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