crazycatlady Posted May 30, 2010 Posted May 30, 2010 Ok, I often seen this tossed around when it comes to infidelity and affairs that if the spouse had any respect for their partner they would get divorced before embarking on a relationship with another person thus avoiding the affair. I'm interesting in more those spouses who recovered their marriages, especially the happy ones.....would you rather have gone through the affair, or been divorced and gone seperate ways? This is more a philosophical discussion really...I'm wondering just how practical the "should get a divorce first" advice really is. Because the recovered marriages prove that the affair isn't a death sentence that the just get the divorce seems to advocate..... does this make sense? CCL
turnstone Posted May 30, 2010 Posted May 30, 2010 'Ending the marriage' doesn't necessarily mean divorce. Its saying - let your spouse know that the marriage has got so bad for you that you are willing to give it up. This at least gives the spouse the opportunity to take a long hard look at themselves and their relationship, and see if a) they feel the same way and b) the opportunity to try to put things right if they don't. When it comes to those marriages that have recovered after the discovery of an affair, I feel its important to understand that it wasn't the affair that was the catalyst for the recovery of the marriage. The catalyst is the realization of what the loss of a partner (the BS in many cases) actually means.
stillafool Posted May 30, 2010 Posted May 30, 2010 I find it really hard to tell someone to work on their marriage when they clearly state they are in love with the OM/OW. If that is their stance then by all means tell the BS how you feel and get a divorce. It takes two to make a marriage work and I don't see the point when one of the spouses no longer feels the love for the other. I certainly wouldn't want my husband if I knew he didn't love me anymore but was in love with someone else. It may be different if it was just a one time thing and the spouse had no emotional feelings for the other person. Then I can see a couple staying together and getting counseling.
soserious1 Posted May 30, 2010 Posted May 30, 2010 I think the spouse who is not happy has the obligation to decide if they think this is something they can change via IC and MC. If it is they need to tell their spouse that X,Y and Z are bothering them to the point that they are deal breakers, the marriage will be over if these sitiations aren't fixed. If the unhappy spouse decides that they flat out don't want to stay, that IC or MC will only delay the inevitable, they have the responsibility for telling their spouse that as well. "I don't love you anymore, I want a divorce" Divorce is never pleasant but being told by a partner who chooses to be honorable and end your relationship BEFORE embarking on an affair is far preferable.
jennie-jennie Posted May 30, 2010 Posted May 30, 2010 In my country common-law marriage is very common. This is how my two prior long term relationships have been constructed. Without the presence of a vow and a contract there is more flexibility. During both these relationships there have been times when both I and my SOs ended the relationship to be permanently with the OW/OM only to find out that that relationship did not live up to what I/he thought it would, and thus we returned back to our original common-law marriage. I believe this flexibility allows the WS to quicker find out in the light of day which of the two relationships he/she prefers and thus in this way it prevents the occurrence of long term extramarital relationships.
Spark1111 Posted May 30, 2010 Posted May 30, 2010 Well, divorce is not to be taken lightly, but honesty is a relationship should be. I also believe it is impossible to invest emotionally in one relationship while being emotionally invested in another. Even in the best scenarios, IC and MC would be simply ineffective. To me, the most damaging aspect of an affair are the lies and deception necessary to maintain it. Be a grown up. Own your choices, your needs and your feelings. Honesty, and separation, while you pursue feelings for another, might be hurtful, but it is truthful and allows me to do the same, possibly while we both go to counseling and see if we have a relationship worth saving. If it cannot be saved, well then divorce.But it gives both parties time to truly figure out their feelings in an honest and mature manner.
2long Posted May 30, 2010 Posted May 30, 2010 Ok, I often seen this tossed around when it comes to infidelity and affairs that if the spouse had any respect for their partner they would get divorced before embarking on a relationship with another person thus avoiding the affair. More personally, if they had any self-respect they would end one relationship before starting another. Without self-respect, they're unlikely 2 care about others, and more inclined 2 hurt them without thinking 2wice about it. -ol' 2long
Katerina Posted May 31, 2010 Posted May 31, 2010 Well, my H apparently was playing a game.. He wasn't in love in AP and he never meant/planned to leave me... He just wanted a little something on the side.. He was testing his "evilness" (how evil can I get?).. whatever. Then it turned into more - emotional attachment, etc., yet he always knew it was temporary. When it was time for our family to move, he knew he'd dump the OW. So, yes, although I told him I would have rather he was honest with me and divorced me, that was never a choice for him. He didn't want a divorce and he never planned on a life with OW.
She's_NotInLove_w/Me Posted May 31, 2010 Posted May 31, 2010 I consider myself who always promotes "finishing one relationship completely before starting another." Oddly enough though, if I put myself in the position of a being a BS, if I knew the relationship would be restored and continue to improve and eventually flourish after the affair, I could possibly be ok with a brief affair, as opposed to my wife divorcing me to chase some other man... I honestly didn't think I would look it that way. Now just don't let my wife know!
Author crazycatlady Posted May 31, 2010 Author Posted May 31, 2010 Well, my H apparently was playing a game.. He wasn't in love in AP and he never meant/planned to leave me... He just wanted a little something on the side.. He was testing his "evilness" (how evil can I get?).. whatever. Then it turned into more - emotional attachment, etc., yet he always knew it was temporary. When it was time for our family to move, he knew he'd dump the OW. So, yes, although I told him I would have rather he was honest with me and divorced me, that was never a choice for him. He didn't want a divorce and he never planned on a life with OW. I'm sorry Katerina, I don't know your story. Did what he affect your feelings on his affair? It is a bit different from how a lot of people get into them. I consider myself who always promotes "finishing one relationship completely before starting another." Oddly enough though, if I put myself in the position of a being a BS, if I knew the relationship would be restored and continue to improve and eventually flourish after the affair, I could possibly be ok with a brief affair, as opposed to my wife divorcing me to chase some other man... I honestly didn't think I would look it that way. Now just don't let my wife know! This is what i was wondering....is an affair easier to recover from, or is asking for a speration/divorce easier to recover from? I mean, ugh...sorry I'm having trouble getting my thoughts out on this. One of those times when talking is easier then trying to formulate it in written words. I don't mean to condone an affair in any way shape or form. But sometimes I do wonder if leaving first is the better way to handle it, or if maybe those WS are doing the best they can given the circumstances of confusion, fog, bewilderment, pain, guilt, hope etc. CCL
Samantha0905 Posted May 31, 2010 Posted May 31, 2010 I wouldn't exactly call it a time when I was doing "the best I could." Well, not relationship-wise anyway. I was desperately trying to find me and choosing poorly as to how to do that. We live and learn.
Owl Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 I"m one of the "end the marriage first" philosphisizers...and in a recovered marriage. In my case, the "issues" that led to the affair were entirely things that my wife needed to address, predominately within herself. Untreated depression, onling gaming addiction, etc... They were things she needed to address, but they weren't things within MY scope of control. She was unhappy, but she was never "unhappy with the marriage" until she started her EA and the mental revision of our marital history began. So 'ending the marriage first' wasn't even really a consideration because the factors in her case were all internal, and she couldn't recognize them until it all came to a head. If the affair hadn't occurred, something else would have been the culmination of all the stress...and these things would have still been addressed. As far as my advice on 'ending the marriage first'...it's still the best advice I can give anyone. Address your problems. If the marriage is untenable, and unfixable...then address that, and end it. But do it WITHOUT inflicting the additional emotional devestation/humiliation of conducting an affair and cheating on your spouse. If you're that unhappy, and you've taken all the steps you're willing to take in order to fix the problem and they've failed...walk away. Don't add to the whole list of issues by bringing a third party into the mix.
2sure Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 I think when people say end the marriage before entering an affair its really a matter of: If you are THAT unhappy with your marriage that you would consider the affair.... Its time to talk about your unhappiness, your inclination, and the possibility of divorce with your spouse. Being that unhappy , not owning it, making the decision FOR your spouse and having an affair...is selfish, underhanded, and cowardly. An exit affair is just that. Generally, the conversations have been had, the unhappiness brought to light and the affair is just the last straw before the final exit. In marriages that recover after infidelity getting over the affair itself is just a part of getting over the bigger issue: WHY didnt you come to me first??
OWoman Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 I think when people say end the marriage before entering an affair its really a matter of: If you are THAT unhappy with your marriage that you would consider the affair.... Its time to talk about your unhappiness, your inclination, and the possibility of divorce with your spouse. Being that unhappy , not owning it, making the decision FOR your spouse and having an affair...is selfish, underhanded, and cowardly. There are a couple of posters on LS who have had the opportunity to escape from an abusive R because of an A. My H is another such. When one is the abused partner in a R - particularly one of long standing - one (perceives that) one lacks the agency to stand up to one's abusive partner and say, I want out. Their self esteem, their personal power, their sense of perspective, have all been beaten out of them (physically or emotionally). They can no longer see the world realistically, and can't conceive of a future outside of the R, because they have been bullied into the abuser's view of them. So yes, it might be cowardly - and it's most certainly underhanded, because it needs to be - and it's possibly the first "selfish" thing they ever do, in the sense of it being in their own rather than the abuser's interests... but at least it enables them to get out. Not every A is like that, to be sure - but some are.
2sure Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 Well, yeah. Exit Affairs are completely different. An exit affair is just that. Generally, the conversations have been had, the unhappiness brought to light and the affair is just the last straw before the final exit.
reboot Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 There are a couple of posters on LS who have had the opportunity to escape from an abusive R because of an A. My H is another such. When one is the abused partner in a R - particularly one of long standing - one (perceives that) one lacks the agency to stand up to one's abusive partner and say, I want out. Their self esteem, their personal power, their sense of perspective, have all been beaten out of them (physically or emotionally). They can no longer see the world realistically, and can't conceive of a future outside of the R, because they have been bullied into the abuser's view of them. So yes, it might be cowardly - and it's most certainly underhanded, because it needs to be - and it's possibly the first "selfish" thing they ever do, in the sense of it being in their own rather than the abuser's interests... but at least it enables them to get out. Not every A is like that, to be sure - but some are. To be fair, if a marriage/relationship is truly abusive, then the common advice given here doesn't even apply. You get out, no matter what it takes to get out. I would never fault anyone for anything they might do to escape an abusive partner. An abusive partner deserves no consideration or sympathy. When we give that advice "divorce before affair", which is what the OP was asking about, we're referring to a "normal" (although what's normal?) marriage, not an abusive relationship. The situations you mention are what would be called "outliers" in statistics. Most of the stories we hear on these forums are not about real abuse.
OWoman Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 To be fair, if a marriage/relationship is truly abusive, then the common advice given here doesn't even apply. You get out, no matter what it takes to get out. I would never fault anyone for anything they might do to escape an abusive partner. An abusive partner deserves no consideration or sympathy. When we give that advice "divorce before affair", which is what the OP was asking about, we're referring to a "normal" (although what's normal?) marriage, not an abusive relationship. The situations you mention are what would be called "outliers" in statistics. Most of the stories we hear on these forums are not about real abuse. Fair enough, Reeb (as usual - you're always so damn rational ) but it does nonetheless warrant mentioning. There ARE people on LS who are, or have been, in abusive Rs. Some have managed to get out through As. They shouldn't be invisible, and their stories shouldn't be negated just because they are not the norm. I've always been a big advocate (OK, I'll concede - a nag ) that each R should be considered on its own merits and that there is no OSFA solution for EVERY A, EVERY M or EVERY R - we simply don't know enough of the distinguishing details of any particular case to know if it's a carbon copy of our pet situation / solution or not... So even if a situation is in the minority, or an outlier, it still warrants acknowledgment. Which is not to provide anyone with a get out of jail free card. People know what they're dealing with in their own situations. Applying the scenario fix you like best because you best like the outcome won't work if it's not the right one for you...
2long Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 I don't understand why someone with an abusive spouse would have an affair rather than seek help (e.g., from women's shelters, if the abuser is male). If the abuse is physical, why put an OP at risk of being on the receiving end of a potentially very violent (and now really p-d off) BS? -ol' 2long
reboot Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 I don't understand why someone with an abusive spouse would have an affair rather than seek help (e.g., from women's shelters, if the abuser is male). If the abuse is physical, why put an OP at risk of being on the receiving end of a potentially very violent (and now really p-d off) BS? -ol' 2long I think OWoman's point (and she'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that an affair, or probably more specifically the affair partner, can sometimes give one the courage to act that they might otherwise lack.
OWoman Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 I think OWoman's point (and she'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that an affair, or probably more specifically the affair partner, can sometimes give one the courage to act that they might otherwise lack. ... and often provide a more reality-based perspective that they NEED to act. People in abusive Rs don't always recognise them as abusive. They see them as normal. They think that all Rs are (sometimes) like that, or that they are just such bad people that anyone would treat them as their partner does - after all, it's out of love, to help them become a better person... It's only when they're exposed to a normal R that they start to see that love doesn't have to hurt, and that abuse is not love, and that the abusive R is damaging them (and, possibly, the kids). And then, yes, the AP or the A context can provide them with the courage to act - a sense of their own agency that they had lost in the abusive R.
2sure Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 So...to the actual topic, if it can be addressed without obvious disclaimers.... I think that in marriages that one hopes to really recover/ reconcile, exposure is even more important so that you can move forward together fully experiencing and coming to terms with all of the issues. If you are hoping to share a life with someone...its important.
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