Are average women really ignored by guys THAT much?

[MrNate]

The guys on here all CLAIM to be typical guys in one way or another. Why wouldn't they be representative of maledom?

 

I'm not interested in approaching 3 billion dudes to find one who wont blow me off or tell me they don't want to date but their happy to FWB me.

 

Defeatist isn't attractive and I've never gone into a dating/bar situation and announced all men are jerks. But being myself certainly hasn't helped. The best advice I've gotten here is to go get myself a smokin body and then they wont care that I have kids.

 

I've already lost.

 

I've accomplished things in my life that people said I never would. But in the process I've lost any chance for a decent partner.

 

That's nothing special. People accomplish things in their lives, people say they never would all the time. I just find it peculiar that you mention you did all this, but accepted defeat when it comes to finding a decent guy. What I'm wondering is when did you lose any chance to find a decent partner? Was it around the time you had kids? Or maybe when you decided to pursue your interests?

 

How important is it for you to be with a man? Really. It almost sounds like you would give all that up to find a decent man. If you could give all that up to for a decent partner would you?

 

If you already lost, then either become a lesbian, or stay single and watch other women prove your ideas wrong day after day. Otherwise, you need to realize something needs to change. And it starts with you.

Edited May 30, 2010 by MrNate

[brainygirl]

That's nothing special. People accomplish things in their lives, people say they never would all the time. What I'm wondering is when did you lose any chance to find a decent partner? Was it around the time you had kids? Or maybe when you decided to pursue your interests?

 

 

It almost sounds like you would give all that up to find a decent man. If you could give all that up to for a decent partner would you?

 

I had a kid when I was 17. The high school people didn't want me there and tried to keep me out. I graduated on time. I went to college and finished before most of my classmates.

 

Yes, it was around the time I had kids. Because I had a kid I wasn't out partying when others my age were. When others my age were out partying they met their spouses. I was studying or working three jobs at the time.

 

Now I'm 28. I have three kids. I am not hot. I am not carefree. I can't drop everything to go hang out with a guy.

 

No, I wouldn't give up everything for a guy.

 

But I feel like I have my like in order for the most part. Except for a partner. So I started looking for a partner, and have been disappointed with the experience to say the least.

 

I ask for advice and get things like "loose weight" "don't be so negative" and it makes me feel like absolute worthless garbage.

 

Nice guys aren't interested in a single mom. Its been pointed out to me time and a gain. So, where does that leave me?

[Zed]

That's nothing special. People accomplish things in their lives, people say they never would all the time. I just find it peculiar that you mention you did all this, but accepted defeat when it comes to finding a decent guy. What I'm wondering is when did you lose any chance to find a decent partner? Was it around the time you had kids? Or maybe when you decided to pursue your interests?

 

How important is it for you to be with a man? Really. It almost sounds like you would give all that up to find a decent man. If you could give all that up to for a decent partner would you?

 

If you already lost, then either become a lesbian, or stay single and watch other women prove your ideas wrong day after day. Otherwise, you need to realize something needs to change. And it starts with you.

 

I just hope that you are selling that same "keeping it real" advice to the average guys who make up the bulk of threads as to why a hot woman won't give them the time of day. Them not being special, that they have no cause to whine and that they are their own worse problem who should either go gay or watch other guys prove them wrong every single day.

[MrNate]

 

Think of it in statistical/mathematical terms: Roughly 68% (Famous Number) of the time men will go after beautiful women.

 

Otherwise, it's a hit or miss type of thing. You never know which way men will sway.

 

That's why I say, women should hit it when it's hot. You only get one chance at first impressions!

 

Ah 68%...where most observations fall within the first standard deviation of the mean.... I know that number well. I guess I can agree with that somewhat.

 

I think it's more 50-50, but that's just me.

[DollWelch]

Nice guys aren't interested in a single mom. Its been pointed out to me time and a gain. So, where does that leave me?

Back at square one.

 

I hate to say this to you or any other woman in your position; no offense to you, but the chance you land a man that meets most or all your requirements/standards is 1 in a million.

 

Winning the lottery is more likely, bluntly put.

 

Even the 'Loser Men' complain once they find a 'Decent/Average' woman. Rarely is it a win-win situation. I have seen it all too often. Why else are these men still single? Because they want the best, the elite woman.

 

But they themselves, are a walking oxymoron or paradox.

[MrNate]

I just hope that you are selling that same "keeping it real" advice to the average guys who make up the bulk of threads as to why a hot woman won't give them the time of day. Them not being special, that they have no cause to whine and that they are their own worse problem who should either go gay or watch other guys prove them wrong every single day.

 

Can you do me a favor? Please direct me to a few of these threads where the guy whine about how a hot woman not giving them the time of day? Because I see more threads concerned with guys being scared to approach any woman to begin with.

 

Everyone can find a cause to whine, it comes down to a matter of you sitting down and whining, or doing something about it. I applaud the women, everyday who are willing to suspend disbelief, and give it their all to find a man. If my own aunt, who had 4 kids, and went through a divorce is STILL finding dates, while raising those children at the same time, I have no doubt it can't be done by others. And funny enough, she's not exactly slim.

[MrNate]

I had a kid when I was 17. The high school people didn't want me there and tried to keep me out. I graduated on time. I went to college and finished before most of my classmates.

 

Yes, it was around the time I had kids. Because I had a kid I wasn't out partying when others my age were. When others my age were out partying they met their spouses. I was studying or working three jobs at the time.

 

Now I'm 28. I have three kids. I am not hot. I am not carefree. I can't drop everything to go hang out with a guy.

 

No, I wouldn't give up everything for a guy.

 

But I feel like I have my like in order for the most part. Except for a partner. So I started looking for a partner, and have been disappointed with the experience to say the least.

 

I ask for advice and get things like "loose weight" "don't be so negative" and it makes me feel like absolute worthless garbage.

 

Nice guys aren't interested in a single mom. Its been pointed out to me time and a gain. So, where does that leave me?

 

Funny, I never knew being healthy and having an upbeat attitude would be detrimental. Maybe consider those things.. they would do nothing but help. Mind if I let you in on a little secret? Men and women workout primarily for two reasons: health, and to be physically attractive to the opposite sex.

 

If you think you would look better with a few less pounds, lose them. Exercise and get in shape for you first, and men second. Become sexy for you first, and men second. We are visual creatures, who search for signs of fertility. This does not make us jerks, idiots, or childish. Chalking that sort of advice up as a personal attack is a cop-out.

 

It's almost like saying 'wait, you mean i have to do work to make myself more attractive? Why can't I just leave things the way they are, and expect things to change?" After all, that's how insane people think. Rational people know changes in their environment and outlook, start with changes in themselves.

 

Nice guys won't consider a single mom...blah blah blah....As far as blaming it on being a single mom, once again, another cop out. There are guys who will consider single mothers. If not, then my aunt must be a legend. I'll do my best to forget about the fact that she's dedicated to her weight watchers program, dresses quite nice very often, and is very outdoing and always meeting new people.

[brainygirl]

Funny, I never knew being healthy and having an upbeat attitude would be detrimental. Maybe consider those things.. they would do nothing but help. Mind if I let you in on a little secret? Men and women workout primarily for two reasons: health, and to be physically attractive to the opposite sex.

 

If you think you would look better with a few less pounds, lose them. Exercise and get in shape for you first, and men second. Become sexy for you first, and men second. We are visual creatures, who search for signs of fertility. This does not make us jerks, idiots, or childish. Chalking that sort of advice up as a personal attack is a cop-out.

 

It's almost like saying 'wait, you mean i have to do work to make myself more attractive? Why can't I just leave things the way they are, and expect things to change?" After all, that's how insane people think. Rational people know changes in their environment and outlook, start with changes in themselves.

 

Nice guys won't consider a single mom...blah blah blah....As far as blaming it on being a single mom, once again, another cop out. There are guys who will consider single mothers. If not, then my aunt must be a legend. I'll do my best to forget about the fact that she's dedicated to her weight watchers program, dresses quite nice very often, and is very outdoing and always meeting new people.

 

Funny, I had an upbeat attitude until I decided I was ready to date again.

 

I have great muscle strength. I can out last most people I know when it comes to hiking or biking, all measures of my health are excellent, aside from being over weight.

 

It was told to me IN THIS THREAD that I shouldn't be looking to meet guys in clubs or online.

 

Still haven't gotten a reasonable answer of where else is there.

 

And yeah, there are lots of threads here with men, some my age, moaning and groaning about not being able to approach women.

 

I have to approach men, they don't approach me.

 

Which gets me back to . . . . I might as well give up. I am undatable. I'm smart, I'm funny, I'm a great friend and hellacious in bed.

 

But not at all datable.

 

Thanks LS. Appreciate it.

[sagetalk]

But I feel like I have my like in order for the most part. Except for a partner. So I started looking for a partner, and have been disappointed with the experience to say the least.

 

Did you do any of the things I suggested doing? Guys are not complicated, they are visual. Telling you to workout, dress more feminine in your photos, and look less aggressive should not make you feel worthless.

 

I tell myself to workout all the time. I tell my 100lb skinny sister to workout. I tell everyone to workout. It's a part of life, especially if you're trying to attract the opposite sex. Taking a defensive attitude when it comes to your fitness will do nothing but harm rather than help. Let your pride go and start working out. People should love you for you, but a little incentive never hurts.

[MrNate]

Funny, I had an upbeat attitude until I decided I was ready to date again.

 

I have great muscle strength. I can out last most people I know when it comes to hiking or biking, all measures of my health are excellent, aside from being over weight.

 

It was told to me IN THIS THREAD that I shouldn't be looking to meet guys in clubs or online.

Still haven't gotten a reasonable answer of where else is there.

 

And yeah, there are lots of threads here with men, some my age, moaning and groaning about not being able to approach women.

 

I have to approach men, they don't approach me.

 

Which gets me back to . . . . I might as well give up. I am undatable. I'm smart, I'm funny, I'm a great friend and hellacious in bed.

 

But not at all datable.

 

Thanks LS. Appreciate it.

 

Please don't tell me you think you're the only one who was told this.

 

All I see is a list of more and more cop outs.

 

If you want your upbeat attitude again, then give up finding a guy, since that's working for you. Or maybe consider the fact that attracting, finding a decent man, and forming a good relationship will take time and effort? It has nothing to do with you being smart, strong, or good in bed. That alone won't just make a guy fall out of the heavens into your lap.

 

As of where to look? Guys are everywhere. You know that.

 

Women approach men all the time, again it's nothing new.

 

Any other excuses? Or are you ready to step it up and change some things?

[Zed]

Can you do me a favor? Please direct me to a few of these threads where the guy whine about how a hot woman not giving them the time of day? Because I see more threads concerned with guys being scared to approach any woman to begin with.

 

Everyone can find a cause to whine, it comes down to a matter of you sitting down and whining, or doing something about it. I applaud the women, everyday who are willing to suspend disbelief, and give it their all to find a man. If my own aunt, who had 4 kids, and went through a divorce is STILL finding dates, while raising those children at the same time, I have no doubt it can't be done by others. And funny enough, she's not exactly slim.

 

 

It’s all the same. Whether said male posters are too afraid to approach or the ubiquitous "I'm a nice guy and no woman will notice me whine" (in which a thread can go on into the 30's), you have been here long enough to notice the trend outweighs threads made by women who complain of similar difficulties and are basically told it’s your fault, go lesbian, or your weak and a loser for not changing your game.

 

When a woman in the whiny guy's thread gives a similar example in their thread that you gave about your aunt, a woman's opinion is immediately discounted as the exception and that only men should give advice since their observations are obviously wrong and that it will only serve to perpetuate the uneven dating/marrying balance that women enjoy.

 

In either case, if average women are their own worse enemy and they aren't doing enough to be attractive to men, then your advice should be consistent with the whiny average guys by not coddling them either and giving them the same tough love speeches that you are giving to brainygirl.

[MrNate]

It’s all the same. Whether said male posters are too afraid to approach or the ubiquitous "I'm a nice guy and no woman will notice me whine" (in which a thread can go on into the 30's), you have been here long enough to notice the trend outweighs threads made by women who complain of similar difficulties and are basically told it’s your fault, go lesbian, or your weak and a loser for not changing your game.

 

When a woman in the whiny guy's thread gives a similar example in their thread that you gave about your aunt, a woman's opinion is immediately discounted as the exception and that only men should give advice since their observations are obviously wrong and that it will only serve to perpetuate the uneven dating/marrying balance that women enjoy.

 

In either case, if average women are their own worse enemy and they aren't doing enough to be attractive to men, then your advice should be consistent with the whiny average guys by not coddling them either and giving them the same tough love speeches that you are giving to brainygirl.

 

Don't worry about my advice being consistent. You will see I don't support people who whine, period. Male or female. If I, as a 21 year old, got over my pride and learned to stop making excuses for everything that doesn't go my way, then anyone can.

[Zed]

Don't worry about my advice being consistent. You will see I don't support people who whine, period. Male or female. If I, as a 21 year old, got over my pride and learned to stop making excuses for everything that doesn't go my way, then anyone can.

 

Fine. So you are evolved and you won't be one coming back to a similar board in 15 years whining about the same garbage, however not everyone is going to be able to transcend at the same rate. Therefore castigating and browbeating someone into submission isn't going to convince them of anything and will just feed your own ego.

[MrNate]

Fine. So you are evolved and you won't be one coming back to a similar board in 15 years whining about the same garbage, however not everyone is going to be able to transcend at the same rate. Therefore castigating and browbeating someone into submission isn't going to convince them of anything and will just feed your own ego.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to beat anyone into anything. They can only change themselves. I merely try to offer advice. They respond, and I respond back. We all have wants and desires in life, but many of us don't realize there's a price to be paid. You can achieve anything if you're willing to pay the price! Whether that be money, or men.

[Els]

I'm sure it's happened. But the odds are greatly in favor of men facing unrequited love. I'm willing to say that seven out of 10 times, it's the guy falling for his female friend.

 

In the rare occasions where it's a girl falling for her male friend, I wouldn't be surprised that the reason the two didn't get together was because the guy was already in a relationship at the time.

 

Sometimes that is the reason, yes. But often, guys have plenty of reasons for wanting to remain single that aren't all that different from a woman's. Sometimes they have been led to believe that they deserve and therefore should hold out for the 9 girl, despite being a 5 themselves. Sometimes they just want to enjoy singlehood and lack of commitment. Sometimes they want to focus on their career. Sometimes they just aren't attracted to her 'that way'. Yes, it's possible for a man as well, and most healthy, non-desperate men DO feel that way about female friends at times. If you have never had a female friend whom you would ONLY like to remain platonic with, then yes, perhaps you aren't at the stage where you should be friends with women yet.

 

You can become friends with somebody after only knowing them for a week or two? It takes me much longer to actually consider somebody a friend. If that's what you consider friends first, then I agree with you.

I didn't say BFFs, I didn't say bosom buddies, I didn't even say close friends... just friends. Uh yes I certainly make friends within a week or two... don't you??? It takes a bit longer than that for me to form a romantic attraction for a guy though!

 

I think you're getting the wrong idea of the 'friends first' approach. To me, it merely means that you get to know a woman as a person first without other intent, instead of going directly up to a stranger and saying, "Hey hottie, nice rack, could I have your number so we can date?" Of course, the approach is generally more subtle, but unless you're incredibly smart and cunning, we will read that through most pick up lines. Yes, we WILL. It's bloody obvious.

 

In the past, it wasn't uncommon for me to ask out somebody that I've known for at least 6 months or more. And in those situations the girl had already decided that I was just her friend and nothing ever came of it. Both of us end up being really hurt when the friendship falls apart. The girl feels betrayed, thinking that the friendship was all a lie. Of course it wasn't a lie, I enjoyed being her friend, but that doesn't change the fact that I was interested in her. We were best friends and the friendship was absolutely destroyed.

 

That's the danger of becoming friends and waiting too long.

 

Just recently I've managed to cut that time down to three months. But I never thought of that girl as my friend. We were classmates, then acquaintances. We hung out a couple of times. When I made it obvious that I was into her, she rejected me. We then stopped talking. Doing it that way meant that I did not lose a friend. She didn't lose anything, and the pain I went through was minimal compared to if she had become my best friend and I lost her then.

I do agree that 6 months is rather long. Have never waited that long before. Most of mine started within 2 weeks, to about 3 months.

 

I'm sorry it doesn't work for you. But don't knock it for others.

 

1. I've never claimed I know women, but I do know that most of them have no idea why they are attracted to the males they are attracted to. Do they list reasons, yes, but few of them are the true reasons because they are unaware of them.

 

Trust me, I know VERY well why I am attracted to the men I am attracted to. Perhaps I'm an anomaly. But none of the relationships I've had started with them IGNORING me. All of them pursued me. Of course they didn't go berserk and call me 20 times a day.. I consider that being desperate and dumb, not pursuing.

 

2. You're seeing them from a woman's perspective, so I have no idea how the relationships happened. Most girls will say they were friends with their boyfriend/husband first (it sounds good and decent), but actually being friends first is a completely different thing altogether.

Mmhmm. And maybe the guys YOU know are claiming that it isn't possible because they have weird ideas about what it means to be friends?

 

3. Knowing someone a week and making a move is not friends first. I'm starting to see why you think it's possible.

Really? Then what are you during the couple of weeks during which you talk a lot, enjoy each others' company and hang out?

[pantherj]

This is the most confused thread I have ever seen on any forum. There are literally dozens of posts that are completly wrong. I wouldn't even know where to start.

 

The most recent topic is the dreaded 'friendzone'. Any decent looking normal guy in the friendzone with a single girl can get out of it and be seen as a sexual being at any time. You're not stuck. You're not doomed. How do you get out, and get her to see you as a potential bf? Simple. Flirt with her. Flirting has a strong affect on women, and it will change you from being her neutered 'man friend' to an actual man. Do you know how to flirt with a woman? If you don't, then you need to learn how. I'll asssume the guys reading this know how to flirt (maybe). Ok I know for a fact that some of these posters don't know how to flirt by looking at their troubles with women.

 

#1) You're voice is important. How you speak says a lot about who you are as a man. When you're around your female 'friend' lol, and you see an opportunity to flirt, speak with a smooth deep voice. Don't be obvious about it. Whatever you might be saying, speak like you have all day to get it out. You're tone of voice will speak volumes, and it's a form of flirting.

 

#2) Don't stand or sit at the same distance from her as you do your friends. You need to be close to her. If your worried she'll inch away from you, then your thinking like a 'man friend'. Men move forward. Being closer to her is flirting. The closer you get, the more you're flirting.

 

#3) Always look her in the eyes. Looking away or looking down when she's talking to you makes you appear weak. You look into her eyes, pick one to look at, and let her be the one to look away. Be friendly, but never weak.

 

#4) Touching is flirting if you do it right, and in the right setting. Assuming things are going well, touching her shoulder or arm is fair game. Just a light touch during conversation. By doing this you remind her that you're actually a physical being, and not a talking head.

 

Congratulations. You are no longer in the friendzone. Either she breaks off the friendship and rejects you as a man, or she accepts you and you ask her out. Either way, she sees you as a man. So long friendzone. Also, she will have to tell her friends why she won't hang out with you anymore. Bingo. That's a good thing. "I don't know what came over him. He was flirting and coming on to me. I wasn't interested." Her gfs will see that you're not some puss 'shopping friend', and the other guys will have more respect for you. You win.

[Stockalone]

I didn't say BFFs, I didn't say bosom buddies, I didn't even say close friends... just friends. Uh yes I certainly make friends within a week or two... don't you??? It takes a bit longer than that for me to form a romantic attraction for a guy though!

 

I think you're getting the wrong idea of the 'friends first' approach. To me, it merely means that you get to know a woman as a person first without other intent, instead of going directly up to a stranger and saying, "Hey hottie, nice rack, could I have your number so we can date?" Of course, the approach is generally more subtle, but unless you're incredibly smart and cunning, we will read that through most pick up lines. Yes, we WILL. It's bloody obvious.

 

I definitely had something else in mind when we were talking about being friends first in the other thread.

 

A friend is someone who according to your description, would be at least close friend. Someone I met a week or two ago is not a friend, that's a stranger.

 

It's also safe to say that when I meet a woman in real life, I think of her as a potential partner first and foremost. I am thinking about whether I would date her or not, I am not thinking about making a new friend.

 

I have been told that many women don't like that mentality, and I can understand that, but it would be silly for me to pretend that I don't think like that. I am looking for a gf, I am not trying to hide that and I don't doubt it's obvious to women.

 

The female friend I used to have, I had met online. It was a chance encounter and I just got to know her as a person. I never thought of her as a potential gf while we started emailing and, over time, became friends.

 

But eventually, I started to wonder "why not?". She has a great personality and I would lie if I said I wouldn't have loved to have a chance at dating her. But she wasn't interested, and that I had developed feelings, only strained the realtionship.

 

 

Really? Then what are you during the couple of weeks during which you talk a lot, enjoy each others' company and hang out?

 

Certainly not friends.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Stockalone

[somedude81]

Sometimes that is the reason, yes. But often, guys have plenty of reasons for wanting to remain single that aren't all that different from a woman's. Sometimes they have been led to believe that they deserve and therefore should hold out for the 9 girl, despite being a 5 themselves. Sometimes they just want to enjoy singlehood and lack of commitment. Sometimes they want to focus on their career. Sometimes they just aren't attracted to her 'that way'. Yes, it's possible for a man as well, and most healthy, non-desperate men DO feel that way about female friends at times. If you have never had a female friend whom you would ONLY like to remain platonic with, then yes, perhaps you aren't at the stage where you should be friends with women yet.

Yeah I know there are guys that are holding out for the really hot girl. But there is a difference between waiting for a hot girl, and passing over a girl they are not attracted to. That usually means the girl has some flaw with her look.

 

Interesting you brought up that some guys want to enjoy being single without having to commit. Those guys would still try to hook up with the girls that liked them. They only reason they would not, is if the girls wanted the guys to commit. Likewise being focused on a career will not prevent a guy from hooking up with somebody. So in those cases a serious relationship wouldn't form. If there girl was fine with nothing serious, she could get it. For a guy in an unrequited love situation, he would simply be dined everything.

 

And no, I have never had a platonic female friend that I wanted to just be friends with. In fact, ALL my friendships with females ended because I wanted to sleep with them. Either they rejected me or I saw that continuing on as friends wasn't worth it anymore so we stopped hanging out.

 

I didn't say BFFs, I didn't say bosom buddies, I didn't even say close friends... just friends. Uh yes I certainly make friends within a week or two... don't you??? It takes a bit longer than that for me to form a romantic attraction for a guy though!

Maybe you are a very bubbly person who makes friends really easily and quickly. I have never made friends with anybody that quickly.

 

I think you're getting the wrong idea of the 'friends first' approach. To me, it merely means that you get to know a woman as a person first without other intent, instead of going directly up to a stranger and saying, "Hey hottie, nice rack, could I have your number so we can date?" Of course, the approach is generally more subtle, but unless you're incredibly smart and cunning, we will read that through most pick up lines. Yes, we WILL. It's bloody obvious.

If that's your idea of a friends first approach, then that is exactly what I do. I'd like to talk to somebody on a regular basis for at least a couple weeks before I'll ask them out. I still wouldn't call us friends though.

 

The most recent topic is the dreaded 'friendzone'. Any decent looking normal guy in the friendzone with a single girl can get out of it and be seen as a sexual being at any time. You're not stuck. You're not doomed. How do you get out, and get her to see you as a potential bf? Simple. Flirt with her. Flirting has a strong affect on women, and it will change you from being her neutered 'man friend' to an actual man.

 

Congratulations. You are no longer in the friendzone. Either she breaks off the friendship and rejects you as a man, or she accepts you and you ask her out.

I know how to get out of the friendzone. When I've done it, the friendships have always ended. Going from the friendzone with a girl to dating her is very difficult. The best thing to do is to no even get in the friendzone in the first place. That is the really hard part.

 

The steps that you posted about are good. But I recently started using to avoid the friendzone. I'm very proud of myself because the last chick I like never got the chance to friendzone me. Since that was a problem I've been dealing with for many years. I'd rather be rejected then become friends.

 

Just want to point out that, I have only been pursuing cute average girls for the last 5 years.

[Els]

Then I suppose the difference we have here is what or who we term friends... 'Friends' to me are not determined by how long we have spoken, but rather how well we get along. I have certainly made friends within a week or two of regular meetings/conversation with them, and I have people I have known for years who are still hi-and-bye acquaintances. I am actually very introverted and do not make friends easily.. but usually within the first week I've a pretty good idea of whether we 'click' enough to be friends or we don't.

 

Strangely, though, the people here who advocate 'no friends first' are usually those who are going around trying to hit on chicks whom they don't even know in bars or on streets, or chicks they have barely even said more than a 'hello' to before. It is that approach which I find creepy and silly, and I simply cannot fathom why they complain that it doesn't work... because it usually doesn't, unless you're DiCaprio or something. Regardless, the both of you and I seem to be talking about the same thing... so I guess the debate ends here, and I wish you both the best of luck.

 

@somedude: Well, see, it doesn't matter if he would still bed her without an exclusive relationship, because that is not she wants, not what she would term a relationship, and not LOVE. Thus, unrequited love. And no woman with any ounce of self-respect would hang around as FWB with a guy whom she had feelings for. It would be akin to a guy hanging on to a woman who didn't reciprocate, treating her to lunch, driving her around... but not in a relationship with her. Neither counts.

[Jersey Shortie]

Did you do any of the things I suggested doing? Guys are not complicated, they are visual. Telling you to workout, dress more feminine in your photos, and look less aggressive should not make you feel worthless.

 

If I had a penny for everytime I heard men justify any number of behaviors based on having eyeballs, I would be rich.

 

And I sure do love how most of the guys here seem to believe that "working out more and dressing more feminine" is the magic key to happiness with a man. Who is that more insulting to? Men or women? Telling women the sum of their appeal is their body and the sum of what men are interested in from women is their body?

 

I work out very hard, I dress very femininely. But I think men, even "average" guys today have adopted an ideal they think they deserve that they've eaten up from media about female beauty. And ideal that isn't even realistic.

 

And I love how men want to be wanted for who they are, so many men with very average incomes around her etoss around the word "gold-digger" acting like they actually ahve gold to dig for. But they sure do love to encourage women to do the things neccesary to make them shallowly more appealing to the male gender.

 

When men themselves stress how visual they are, then turn around and get pissed at women when we take those comments for exactly what they are and understand how easily men are led around by being "visual", it doesn't promote healthy attitudes for either gender or anything positive. No one is doing anyone any favors whenever they say "men are visual". Because this becomes a justification often for behaviors that treat women less like people and more like something that should only be there to attract a guy.

[somedude81]

Thanks for the input Elswyth. It helps me to understand where women are coming from.

[Els]

If I had a penny for everytime I heard men justify any number of behaviors based on having eyeballs, I would be rich.

 

And I sure do love how most of the guys here seem to believe that "working out more and dressing more feminine" is the magic key to happiness with a man. Who is that more insulting to? Men or women? Telling women the sum of their appeal is their body and the sum of what men are interested in from women is their body?

 

I work out very hard, I dress very femininely. But I think men, even "average" guys today have adopted an ideal they think they deserve that they've eaten up from media about female beauty. And ideal that isn't even realistic.

 

And I love how men want to be wanted for who they are, so many men with very average incomes around her etoss around the word "gold-digger" acting like they actually ahve gold to dig for. But they sure do love to encourage women to do the things neccesary to make them shallowly more appealing to the male gender.

 

When men themselves stress how visual they are, then turn around and get pissed at women when we take those comments for exactly what they are and understand how easily men are led around by being "visual", it doesn't promote healthy attitudes for either gender or anything positive. No one is doing anyone any favors whenever they say "men are visual". Because this becomes a justification often for behaviors that treat women less like people and more like something that should only be there to attract a guy.

 

I think it would be quite unfair for you to lump all men under the umbrella of sagetalk. :/

[Jersey Shortie]

I'm not. I dont know how he talks but he didn't say anything different then what i've seen alot of LS men say. "BUT..but but..men are visual". While i understand the importance in men's attraction to women, I think when this statement gets tossed out to defend any behavior, it does both genders a disservice.

[Els]

JS, you're getting worked up over a man who determines a woman's feminity by how often she wears pink clothes, high heels, and lots of makeup, a man who believes that the court will support him if he gets a girl pregnant and doesn't want her to abort, and a man who believes that all good-looking women respond positively to being ignored. A man who claims that it's folly for men to take women's advice on how to get women, but consistently insists that men's opinions, especially his own, on how women should attract men are indisputable. I really don't think it's fair to think all men are like him.

 

Also, I think you really need to chill. Just do your own thing - as much as the men here like to tout looks as #1 priority, it isn't true for every man in the world. There ARE men who prefer the laid-back tomboy to the ultra-feminine woman, men who prefer assertive women to the delicate flower, men who will like you for YOU. There may not be many of them, but who cares about the others?

 

Be yourself - those who matter won't mind, and those who mind don't matter.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Elswyth

[Stockalone]

Then I suppose the difference we have here is what or who we term friends... 'Friends' to me are not determined by how long we have spoken, but rather how well we get along. I have certainly made friends within a week or two of regular meetings/conversation with them, and I have people I have known for years who are still hi-and-bye acquaintances. I am actually very introverted and do not make friends easily.. but usually within the first week I've a pretty good idea of whether we 'click' enough to be friends or we don't.

 

I agree that you can tell rather quickly who you get along with and it's also not about the amount of time you know someone either.

 

But a week or two isn't enough time for me to let people in, but I don't have a problem with you calling people friends when you get along with them well, even if it is after only a short time of knowing them.

 

 

Strangely, though, the people here who advocate 'no friends first' are usually those who are going around trying to hit on chicks whom they don't even know in bars or on streets, or chicks they have barely even said more than a 'hello' to before. It is that approach which I find creepy and silly, and I simply cannot fathom why they complain that it doesn't work... because it usually doesn't, unless you're DiCaprio or something. Regardless, the both of you and I seem to be talking about the same thing... so I guess the debate ends here, and I wish you both the best of luck.

 

In my case, I was forced to try the "creepy" approach. It wasn't by choice. Women who I knew through friends, from school, or met in a study group, etc. never wanted to go out with me.

 

Strangely enough, asking out strangers actually worked surprisingly well. I'd have been delighted if asking out women I already knew had worked. It just never did.