Author NoIDidn't Posted May 28, 2010 Author Posted May 28, 2010 The operative word here is OWE. No one owes anyone else anything. What's owed is one thing. What's decent is another. Exactly! Why I put it in quotes. I don't think that either party "owes" the other anything after an affair ends, other than respecting the boundary that says its over. If anyone is wondering why I asked, its because a woman in my social circle just broke up with her dMM and is demanding that he help her heal from their R. The dMM (divorced) doesn't feel like he owes her anything, its over. She feels, after seven years, three of which were the affair, he "owes" her that much. I agree with him. Two adults started and ended the R. She doesn't owe him closure, and he doesn't owe it to her either is my opinion. (BTW, this is playing out with friends on FB, of all places.)
MizFit Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 I think it depends on how it ends. I think if it ends because he has decided to go home and work on things then she definitely should be told and I don't see any reason why he shouldn't / couldn't tell her. If it's because of a Dday then I think he should extend some sort of goodbye...quick email or text saying he's made a decision and he needs her to understand leave him to it. I don't think either need to be overly nice, but not cruel either. Statement of fact and more than anything make sure it's honest as far as he is truly going to go and do what he says rather than say it and come knocking (fishing) a few weeks later.
Author NoIDidn't Posted May 28, 2010 Author Posted May 28, 2010 I guess what surprises me is to me there is an implicit contract in an A. The AP doesnt tell the BS or whoever would matter to the MP and in return the AP deserves not to be messed around after (see my list above). The more an MP provokes an AP the more they risk pushing the AP to disclosure. I dont think they are owed honesty because that is really saying you are owed "the reasons" (its not you its me etc etc its rare anyone gets real truth when a relationship with anyone ends) I agree that there is an implicit contract in an A. I've always taken that contract to be the Vow of Secrecy, and nothing beyond that. I'm always intrigued to read and hear, IRL, an OP state what the MP owes them because of that implied contract. And I usually find it to be an unreasonable expectation that the MP be more to the former OP than they can actually be to anyone else. We tend to create a person in romantic Rs that really doesn't exists. This is where the "owing" starts, IMO. I'm guilty too.
MizFit Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 I agree that there is an implicit contract in an A. I've always taken that contract to be the Vow of Secrecy, and nothing beyond that. I'm always intrigued to read and hear, IRL, an OP state what the MP owes them because of that implied contract. And I usually find it to be an unreasonable expectation that the MP be more to the former OP than they can actually be to anyone else. We tend to create a person in romantic Rs that really doesn't exists. This is where the "owing" starts, IMO. I'm guilty too. I agree about creating someone in romantic Rs...that means any romantic R and when they end there is seldom real honesty and normally both parties are rewriting history left, right and centre.
herenow Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 If an affair ends, the IMO, the OW owes it to herself to do what is best for her. Just like after d-day, I owed it to myself to do what was best for me. When you let other people determine your own closure or path to happiness, you inevitably lose your self worth. JMO.
jennie-jennie Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 I agree that there is an implicit contract in an A. I've always taken that contract to be the Vow of Secrecy, and nothing beyond that. I'm always intrigued to read and hear, IRL, an OP state what the MP owes them because of that implied contract. And I usually find it to be an unreasonable expectation that the MP be more to the former OP than they can actually be to anyone else. We tend to create a person in romantic Rs that really doesn't exists. This is where the "owing" starts, IMO. I'm guilty too. I have always requested total honesty with all my significant others, the MM is no different in this sense. I expect and I give total honesty. Of course we are all human beings, and at times we don't live up to this ideal, but that is and has always been the basis of my intimate relationships. The fact that the MM is not honest any longer with his wife, is just a symptom of her not being his primary love interest any longer in my opinion. Had he not felt bond by the marriage contract, I am certain he would have been honest to her as well, which is the reason I would never marry him. It goes back to the impossibility of promising love. To be able to keep up the image of honoring the promise the WS has to lie.
jennie-jennie Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 I agree that there is an implicit contract in an A. I've always taken that contract to be the Vow of Secrecy, and nothing beyond that. I'm always intrigued to read and hear, IRL, an OP state what the MP owes them because of that implied contract. And I usually find it to be an unreasonable expectation that the MP be more to the former OP than they can actually be to anyone else. We tend to create a person in romantic Rs that really doesn't exists. This is where the "owing" starts, IMO. I'm guilty too. No Vow of Secrecy here by the way. The MM knows that I might at any time disclose the extramarital relationship to his wife. I am not bound by any promise not to.
jj33 Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 If they break the implied affair contract, you can too! If they broke their marital contract to be with you, why would you think they would now be more honoring of the affair contract when it ends? Because they still have the same amount to lose if they push you too far you may tell. I did I am not proud of it. But it was my only recourse. Did you believe they had better character with you because of love? Not at all you are missing my point. Its over and the contract should be honored or you (the WS) will be burnt. Well, at one point they deeply loved their spouse, one would assume, and look at the contract they broke to them? Character in the starting or ending or deceiving in any relationship, whether it be BS or OW/OM speaks to....character. Or, the lack thereof.... NID I agree all that is owed is the vow of secrecy and to be entitled to the vow of secrecy they should not mess the AP around and regularly engage in mind *****. Mess too much and consequences will follow as they did in my case. I regret deeply the fact that I was pushed and pushed for so long that it came to that so I dont say that in a manipulative or threatening way.
seren Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 When H ended his A, he sent OW a text and message on her answer machine, 'It's over". That was it, it was I who said he should give her more of an explanation, that IMO it was wrong to not explain why. OW rang our home and it was me who had to say we are working on our marriage and she who said that he only said what he did because I made him. I explained that, no, it wasn't me and that I understood that she was pissed off, but it was not my responsibility to give her answers, but H's and as he had decided he wanted no further contact, that it was up to him what he did. I did and still do, think that if someone enters a R with another, no matter what the circumstances, a firm drawing a line under it, is the way to go. It didn't matter to H or OW what lies were told during their R, on D Day it was I who had the truth from H - possibly the only time during the A (or ending of) that H was truthful to himself and me. So, IMO, I was owed the truth, finally, but I believe so was OW, finally.
BurriedAlive Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 If an affair ends, the IMO, the OW owes it to herself to do what is best for her. Just like after d-day, I owed it to myself to do what was best for me. When you let other people determine your own closure or path to happiness, you inevitably lose your self worth. JMO. I think an OW owes it to herself not to put herself in such a crappy situation. Hindsight is 20/20... Seriously though, while honestly would be a refreshing idea at the end of an A, it is definitively a great expectation. Honesty and affairs do not belong in the same sentence... Personally, I wish my xMM would have felt he owed me a heads up that a big, yellow, speeding bus was coming for me.. lol
pureinheart Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 I guess what surprises me is to me there is an implicit contract in an A. The AP doesnt tell the BS or whoever would matter to the MP and in return the AP deserves not to be messed around after (see my list above). The more an MP provokes an AP the more they risk pushing the AP to disclosure. I dont think they are owed honesty because that is really saying you are owed "the reasons" (its not you its me etc etc its rare anyone gets real truth when a relationship with anyone ends) Hi jj, I suppose this is the beauty of difference...and I hope I read your first/this reply right, and I'll try to put in words what I'm thinking. To me it's all or nothing, and if I'm reading your posts correctly MM owes both AP and W. I think this is correct. Either he owes both or no one. For me, in any R as said before, but not communicated in this way, I don't think anyone on this earth owes me anything in any way shape or form. If there is an agenda, I don't want it...it's cool if a person is cool with me, if not homegirl is gone. I really think you are right also jj
jj33 Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 (edited) Actually Pure that wasnt what I meant. Most As dont end in happily eve after. They have a sell by date that kicks in for one reason or another. I think the MM owes the OW to leave her alone after its over. Not to harrass her in the various ways I set out in my first post. And the reason I say that is set out in my later posts. There is an implicit contract. While we are together I wont rat you out and you wont mess me around and toy with me and harrass me when it ends. This is WAY different than the marriage contract. The BS is still the outsider. THe motivation for the MP to live up to the contract (not to taunt or stalk or harraass or try to manipulate the OW after its over is because if he does, she may (as I did) out him for the azzclown that he is. That is not built on "honesty" or any hearts and flowers romantic concept. It is not built on the same foundatoins on which marriages are built. It is the caveat emptor of an affair. I know your limiatations (you are married) and you are lying to someone (in most cases whether or not its the W) Its a PRACTICAL perspective on what is "owed". Its not owed in the romantic sense. This concept of what is owed does not otherwise make sense to me. If you are with a single person they also owe you nothing after it is over. You hope they will treat you with respect if your paths cross but beyond that nothing is "owed". Of course if they act like an azzclown you still have hte same recourse, to out them for the azzclown they are. But the stakes are much higher for an MP. Edited May 29, 2010 by jj33
pureinheart Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 If an affair ends, the IMO, the OW owes it to herself to do what is best for her. Just like after d-day, I owed it to myself to do what was best for me. When you let other people determine your own closure or path to happiness, you inevitably lose your self worth. JMO. This is due to me being in charge of my own happiness, not counting on anyone to make me happy...yes there are many that enhance my life and an SO would be wonderful...although it's about timing and the right person. This is how I interpret your statement HN, this is very good.
pureinheart Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 Actually Pure that wasnt what I meant. Most As dont end in happily eve after. They have a sell by date that kicks in for one reason or another. I think the MM owes the OW to leave her alone after its over. Not to harrass her in the various ways I set out in my first post. And the reason I say that is set out in my later posts. There is an implicit contract. While we are together I wont rat you out and you wont mess me around and toy with me and harrass me when it ends. This is WAY different than the marriage contract. The BS is still the outsider. THe motivation for the MP to live up to the contract (not to taunt or stalk or harraass or try to manipulate the OW after its over is because if he does, she may (as I did) out him for the azzclown that he is. That is not built on "honesty" or any hearts and flowers romantic concept. It is not built on the same foundatoins on which marriages are built. It is the caveat emptor of an affair. I know your limiatations (you are married) and you are lying to someone (in most cases whether or not its the W) Its a PRACTICAL perspective on what is "owed". Its not owed in the romantic sense. This concept of what is owed does not otherwise make sense to me. If you are with a single person they also owe you nothing after it is over. You hope they will treat you with respect if your paths cross but beyond that nothing is "owed". Of course if they act like an azzclown you still have hte same recourse, to out them for the azzclown they are. But the stakes are much higher for an MP. Oh ok...sorry for misinterpreting what you were comminicating.
jj33 Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 No problem. Im feeling very practical about the whole thing at the moment. Having just dumped over 200 pounds of dead weight that was weighing me down I am seeing it all in very practical terms.
Heather1 Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 I think an OW owes it to herself not to put herself in such a crappy situation. Hindsight is 20/20... Seriously though, while honestly would be a refreshing idea at the end of an A, it is definitively a great expectation. Honesty and affairs do not belong in the same sentence... Personally, I wish my xMM would have felt he owed me a heads up that a big, yellow, speeding bus was coming for me.. lol LOL.....yep, anything else is a bit absurd considering the circumstances. I owe myself!!! I knew. Do I owe him something? ha, ha,
silktricks Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 IMO, the MM "owes" the OW nothing when the affair is over, just as the OW "owes" him nothing. Common decency - nothing to do with the presence or absence of a prior relationship - simply common decency says he doesn't mess with her or her livelihood. If in a work situation and now the affair is over he finds it uncomfortable to be around her - then he should leave. He shouldn't mess with HER situation because it makes HIM (or his wife) uncomfortable. As for not talking about his wife around her - in order to make HER more comfortable, that is IMO nonsensical. He's married. The affair is over. She shouldn't expect any special treatment based upon a past affair. Would a woman expect a former single lover to be so sensitive of her feelings that he wouldn't talk about a new girlfriend if she happened to be around? I think not. The fact that their relationship was illicit does not mean she forever and ever amen gets special treatment. Honesty - though a nice concept in theory - is not owed to her, especially after she colluded in dishonesty with him towards his wife. I think that's somewhat covered in "as he sows, so shall he reap". If she's more than happy to have him lying when it benefits her, then why on earth would she now feel that she somehow deserves the truth?
crazycatlady Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 When H ended his A, he sent OW a text and message on her answer machine, 'It's over". That was it, it was I who said he should give her more of an explanation, that IMO it was wrong to not explain why. OW rang our home and it was me who had to say we are working on our marriage and she who said that he only said what he did because I made him. I explained that, no, it wasn't me and that I understood that she was pissed off, but it was not my responsibility to give her answers, but H's and as he had decided he wanted no further contact, that it was up to him what he did. I did and still do, think that if someone enters a R with another, no matter what the circumstances, a firm drawing a line under it, is the way to go. It didn't matter to H or OW what lies were told during their R, on D Day it was I who had the truth from H - possibly the only time during the A (or ending of) that H was truthful to himself and me. So, IMO, I was owed the truth, finally, but I believe so was OW, finally. i find this interesting, Seren, and i do find myself agreeing pretty much with what you say. But i'm looking at owe more along the lines of simple decency rather then OWE as you gotta do it. Its the right thing to do. And no wishwashy bullpoop either. CCL
pureinheart Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 No problem. Im feeling very practical about the whole thing at the moment. Having just dumped over 200 pounds of dead weight that was weighing me down I am seeing it all in very practical terms. This should be on the happy thread!!!!!!!:D:D Congratulations for the "weight loss":lmao::lmao:... LOL.....yep, anything else is a bit absurd considering the circumstances. I owe myself!!! I knew. Do I owe him something? ha, ha, In bold...this is quite profound
pureinheart Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 i find this interesting, Seren, and i do find myself agreeing pretty much with what you say. But i'm looking at owe more along the lines of simple decency rather then OWE as you gotta do it. Its the right thing to do. And no wishwashy bullpoop either. CCL CCL, we can't put this on the happy thread, no?????? Sorry, I've been happy all day, can't get the happy thread off my mind:o. Great topic BTW NID, forgot to mention in my first response, thanks. You know, I don't think I've seen this particular question/circumstance/senerio. Very clever.
fooled once Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 Nope - no one owes anyone anything. And common decency? Really??? A cheater didn't give the spouse common decency to end the marriage prior to the affair, correct? Why does the OW get the common decency that the wife doesn't get? Kinda hypocritical if you ask me.
jj33 Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 Nope - no one owes anyone anything. And common decency? Really??? A cheater didn't give the spouse common decency to end the marriage prior to the affair, correct? Why does the OW get the common decency that the wife doesn't get? Kinda hypocritical if you ask me. Fooled if you are responding to my comments on common decency I am saying its a fair trade. If the MP doesnt stand by his implicit agreement to act decently he gets outed for his cheating. Or he did in my case. Its not the same thing as the bonds of a marriage.
silktricks Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 And common decency? Really??? A cheater didn't give the spouse common decency to end the marriage prior to the affair, correct? Why does the OW get the common decency that the wife doesn't get? Kinda hypocritical if you ask me. And if you are referring instead to the common decency I mentioned: I do not believe (personally) that anyone should ever under any circumstances attempt to do wrong to another person. The fact is that these two people were supposedly "in love" - for good or bad, that is/was the circumstance. I watched a situation play out at my place of work where the man - who felt he was so much more valuable to the company than the woman was - in effect said that if she remained, he would leave. He tried his best to get her fired, and even threatened to sue the company because he wasn't "warned" about her (never mind the fact that he had affairs with others before her....). (I was the manager of the dept where both worked, so am quite aware of the situation.) He's gone now. She is still there. But, that's another story. IMO (and only MO ), it is common decency to leave the livelihood of anyone alone. You may detest the person (as we all know, love can so easily turn to hate), but that doesn't mean you have any right to screw with their ability to live. If you are stupid enough to play where you work - then you also need to be an adult with the consequences of playtime.
GreenEyedLady Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 Nope - no one owes anyone anything. And common decency? Really??? A cheater didn't give the spouse common decency to end the marriage prior to the affair, correct? Why does the OW get the common decency that the wife doesn't get? Kinda hypocritical if you ask me. Totally agree...
Myowntwofeet Posted May 29, 2010 Posted May 29, 2010 Guess I see it differently... not surprised. The relationship between OW and MM is their relationship....certainly entitled to respect and common decency. The relationship between MM and BS ... the exact same... their relationship and they are also entitled to respect and common decency. Their relationship is theirs... OW and MM is theirs. Other than that.... the fact that anyone can say " how can you think the MM would be honest" and actually still be with their cheating hustband... just too much! Typical.... MM is not capable of being respectful to the OW... but he sure is hell is going to be NOW to his BS, that is of course after he has actually danced the song once or twice before... now, he will be good. I am in awe that you so many show so little respect for the WS but are still sleeping with them, not settling at all. And yes.... The difference.. he never lied to me, and when the decision to be made was put in front of him. I did not allow fence sitting.... it was up to her if she was ok with it ( and she was... knew he'd "eventually" get out of the "fog". The kicker... I do demand respect, and when he wasn't capable of making the choice... I did it for him. Made the choice for him... she doesn't know that... and he is playing sorry WS now. Again.... not possible, I have already heard it before:rolleyes: Course I am sure if anyone suggested that to her.... she would say impossible... he has done EVERYTHING I asked, I "threatened".... and on and on. Since WS are not capable... why is ANYONE still with them.
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