What Do Women Think about During Sex?

[rewe4reel]

nobody yells at anybody or anything in our house... never done, never will do. it's just an unwritten rule... if you need to shout at your spouse, then you are doing something wrong in your marriage...

 

Giotto, you're the one who has an unhappy marriage/dissatisfying sex life, not me.

 

You don't seem to be making a connection that might actually be warranted.

 

The lack of ability or willingness of you and your spouse to express negative emotions, i.e. anger and stress, is simply the other side of the coin of an inability to express positive emotions.

 

If neither you nor your spouse has ever yelled at the other, about anything, that's an indication of severe emotional represssion, which is completely consistent with everything you've posted about your relationship difficulties.

 

You've tried everything else. Try yelling at your spouse the next time she denies sex to you. The world won't end, I assure you.

[giotto]

The lack of ability or willingness of you and your spouse to express negative emotions, i.e. anger and stress, is simply the other side of the coin of an inability to express positive emotions.

 

No, it's called politeness...

 

I can assure you that yelling at my wife would make things even worse...

[rewe4reel]

No, it's called politeness...

 

 

 

We are dealing with basic primal human emotions here. Sex. Love. Hate. Anger. Jealousy. Passion.

 

What you seem to be saying, to me, is that "politeness" is such an important value to you and your wife that neither of you have ever felt safe in opening up to express negative emotions in your marriage in a real, emotionally-connected way, for the course of your relationship.

 

"Politeness" is important. However it is not MORE important than emotional authenticity and the FREEDOM to express one's deepest feelings to one's spouse.

 

Why is "politeness" so important to you? You could have just as well said "fear," as in: "I am afraid to yell at my wife when I am angry because..."

 

The behaviors displayed are identical regardless of what motivation you want to attribute to them. IOW giotto what I am saying is that there is no effective difference between a person who does not express his negative emotions because of wanting to be "polite" as compared with someone who does not feel free to express the same emotions because he is "afraid."

 

All that you are doing by attributing your circumspection to "politeness" is putting a "positive spin" on your motivations. You're certainly allowed to do that but if there is no way to differentiate your behavior from another person engaging in the same behavior then what real difference does it make how the motivations are assigned?

 

 

I can assure you that yelling at my wife would make things even worse...

 

That you want to believe that you understand your wife sufficiently to "know" this, when you have no empirical evidence to support that you could possibly know what her reaction would be to something that you have never actually tried doing, is a big part of the problem that a lot of people have, about a lot of conceptual issues, not just relationship issues.

 

The fact of the matter is you don't really "know."

[rewe4reel]

I'm saying there is a basic minimum of respect that every adult and child deserves.

 

Actually this statement is demonstrably false. There are some adults, perhaps many adults, who are loathsome individuals and therefore do not deserve anyone's "respect."

 

If we are trying to have a meaningful discussion then it has to start with not making obviously false statements to serve as the "premise" for the argument or proposition you want to establish. Because then while you may happen to state a conclusion that is correct, it won't be correct because of any argument you can make that logically follows from the original, false premise.

 

There is no possible "true" conclusion that you can logically derive from the statement: "EVERY adult...deserves some minimum respect", because this premise is a false statement. All that it really takes to disprove the statement is finding ONE individual on the entire planet who is not worthy of any respect--or even the ability to contemplate the possible existence of such an individual, which would conditionally falsify your premise.

 

 

In my world, respecting a person means not thinking it is ok to yell at them--just as it is not ok to hit them.

 

But, at least by now, you've acknowledged that you do yell at your h from time to time. Which means either 1) that you do not respect your h; or 2) that your implied premise, "yelling at someone means you don't respect them," is false.

 

Since you have stated that you do respect your h, and I have no evidence to refute that statement, I will accept that statement as truthful.

 

That means your implied argument that "yelling at someone implies disrespect" is false.

 

This is called disproving a premise by contradiction.

[xxoo]

How would I have any way of knowing that? That's not what it said in your post. I'm not sure it makes much difference to the point, though.

 

And why on earth would your H tell an employer that if his spouse (you) yelled at him (your H), he would take the children and walk out with them? Was this in response to some sort of (typically) inappropriate job interview question?

 

Moreover, even if your h was just throwing out an answer to a job interview question that he thought might placate the interviewer, why would he actually then say that to you?

 

The bottom line is that in my book, threatening to take the children out of the home in response to being yelled at is completely over the top and is itself very controlling, abusive behavior. I realize however everyone reads and writes their own book here.

 

What the heck are you talking about?

 

You've completely twisted and misunderstood what I said on the other thread. Neither of us has ever BEEN in the situation in the other thread (walk in to a spouse yelling). My response was an IF. IF that happened, I would walk out with my kids. I consider it abusive (screaming upon walking in the door--esp routinely as the other poster described), and would treat it as abuse.

 

The employer situation was a boss who was a bully. He had a habit of screaming at employees. A lot of the staff took it, and feared him. He tried it with my H once, and H told him he would speak to him when he was calm. He wouldn't be yelled at. And walked out of the office/went back to his duties. It had a profoundly positive effect on their working relationship; the boss treated him with repect thereafter. And I learned from his example how to stand up for myself in general....not that I have a personal need to use that strategy in my marriage.

 

I'm curious--do you believe it is ok for your spouse to yell at you? Or is that disrespectful? I know some couples are just yellers, and I don't have a big issue with that as long as it goes both ways, and no one is living in fear--although it still is a questionable example for the kids.

[xxoo]

But, at least by now, you've acknowledged that you do yell at your h from time to time. Which means either 1) that you do not respect your h; or 2) that your implied premise, "yelling at someone means you don't respect them," is false.

 

Since you have stated that you do respect your h, and I have no evidence to refute that statement, I will accept that statement as truthful.

 

That means your implied argument that "yelling at someone implies disrespect" is false.

 

This is called disproving a premise by contradiction.

 

No, it means I'm not perfect, and I apologize for handling the situation inappropriately. I apologize to my kids when I sometimes yell at them, too. I do respect them all enough to believe the deserve to be spoken to with respect, even if I sometimes fall short.

[rewe4reel]

I never yelled at my wife in our entire relationship... doesn't mean I don't get angry, but yell? No. It just doesn't happen... I've yelled at my children several times, though...

 

In combination with your other post, in which you said you believed that yelling at your wife would "make things even worse" [use of the adverb "even" to modify "worse" indicating you consider your relationship not so good right now], this indicates you are not really motivated by politeness, but rather, fear of what you believe the negative consequences imposed on you by your wife might be.

 

Your kids have less "power" over you than you believe your wife to have, therefore somehow it's "OK" to yell at them from time to time, even though if "politeness" were really the motivating factor, you would not yell at your kids since it's just as impolite to yell at them as it is to yell at your wife. Perhaps more impolite to yell at your kids since after all they are only kids and therefore have less control over the entire situation.

 

You yell at your children, or have yelled at them more than zero times, because you are not afraid of them. Or at least as not as afraid of them as you are afraid of your wife.

 

I will repeat: try yelling at your wife at least 1x if she does something that really irritates you and is unreasonable with your efforts at trying to address it--i.e. if she's not "listening" to you.

 

She won't break. Neither will you.

Edited May 31, 2010 by rewe4reel

[giotto]

The fact of the matter is you don't really "know."

 

I do know, now. But it's been a long and hard journey to get my wife to open up and discuss her issues... being polite doesn't mean we are afraid to discuss things. Actually, I wasn't afraid, but my wife was. But politeness has nothing to do with fear. If I yelled at my wife she wouldn't have been able to open up. This I know for sure...

[xxoo]

If I yelled at my wife she wouldn't have been able to open up. This I know for sure...

 

I can assure you, giotto.....a bunch of yelling is NEVER the solution to a marriage issue. I think you know that, too.

[giotto]

I will repeat: try yelling at your wife at least 1x if she does something that really irritates you and is unreasonable with your efforts at trying to address it--i.e. if she's not "listening" to you.

 

She won't break. Neither will you.

 

 

you really want me to put the final nail in the coffin, don't you? Unfortunately, my wife never does anything which really irritates me... and before you mention sex, I'll mention it! she is paying attention to my needs, sex-wise, or at least she mentions it, to show that she is not ignoring me. I'm happy with that. I know my wife well enough to realise that what she is giving me is her maximum at the moment. And when I was confrontational in the past, she withdrew in her shell and goodbye.

 

You have an approach in life, which works for you, but I cannot help but thinking that there is vast cultural gap between your ways and my ways... maybe it's a European thing...

[rewe4reel]

What the heck are you talking about?

 

I've just been responding to various assertions you've been making. It may be confusing because you keep modifying and changing the details. Perhaps you don't realize that's what you're doing?

 

 

You've completely twisted and misunderstood what I said on the other thread. Neither of us has ever BEEN in the situation in the other thread (walk in to a spouse yelling).

 

But I never even addressed a situation of "walking in" to a spouse yelling (as if it makes a difference). What happened is that you implied that you and your spouse don't yell at each other. Then you explained that this was because your spouse/you threatened each other to remove the children if either yelled at the other. I questioned that, and then you did admit to yelling at your spouse, but then inserted the "walking in to a yelling spouse" scenario so you could try to falsely distinguish what you were doing so you could claim there was no contradiction in what you had been saying. I never said anything about whether the "yelling" was upon "walking in."

 

Bottom line here is that you do yell at your spouse. Whether that's when the spouse is "walking in" or not is totally irrelevant, because that's a distinction that you made, not one that I made. Yelling is yelling, and if you feel it's unjustified, it becomes no more justified simply because the yelling occurs AFTER the spouse has "walked in" rather than WHILE the spouse is "walking in."

 

 

 

My response was an IF. IF that happened, I would walk out with my kids. I consider it abusive (screaming upon walking in the door--esp routinely as the other poster described), and would treat it as abuse.

 

No, that's not what your post in the other thread, that I quoted verbatim, said. You said you "learned this gem" from your husband. The "gem" being that your h indicated he would take the children away if you yelled at him, and that's why you don't yell at him. But you do yell at him, at least from time to time.

 

 

The employer situation was a boss who was a bully.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with your family. You are not your h's boss. Your h is not your boss.

 

 

He had a habit of screaming at employees. A lot of the staff took it, and feared him. He tried it with my H once, and H told him he would speak to him when he was calm. He wouldn't be yelled at. And walked out of the office/went back to his duties.

 

What does this have to do with you, your h, and your children, and how you deal with conflict with your h?

 

 

 

It had a profoundly positive effect on their working relationship; the boss treated him with repect thereafter. And I learned from his example how to stand up for myself in general....not that I have a personal need to use that strategy in my marriage.

 

Now you're again contradicting yourself. Previously, you referenced the "yelling boss" anecdote (although not clarifying any of the details, or the relevance to your family) as the "gem" that you learned from your husband as to the strategy of how to handle a "yelling spouse." Now you're saying you don't need that strategy in your marriage. That directly contradicts your prior statement that the "gem" was a strategy that was actually being used by you and your husband to deal with conflict situations in your marriage.

 

 

 

I'm curious--do you believe it is ok for your spouse to yell at you?

 

I don't have an issue with it. My wife doesn't really yell very often at all. If she does very occasionally lose her temper I assume she must have a good reason for it, and try to address it. I certainly don't believe she lacks respect for me simply because once in a while she might be so emotionally stressed about something that she has to "vent" it in that manner.

 

I'm still very hazy on why so many people apparently seem to have a big issue about admitting that yelling sometimes happens in relationships.

 

I would much rather have my wife ream me out a new one if she's angry at me for some reason, rather than have her repress that anger, emotionally detach, and then go give some dude a bj in a parking lot somewhere.

 

 

 

Or is that disrespectful? I know some couples are just yellers, and I don't have a big issue with that as long as it goes both ways, and no one is living in fear--although it still is a questionable example for the kids.

 

I would be much more offended by my wife ever threatening to take my children away from me simply because I raised my voice at her. I would never make such a threat to her either, simply because she yelled at me.

 

 

Besides it doesn't matter anyway; you've admitted that you do yell at your h, and apparently he hasn't absconded with your children yet.

[rewe4reel]

I do know, now.

 

How could you possibly know how she would react to something that has never occurred in your relationship? You can state what you believe might be a probable outcome; but you cannot "know" what will happen until you have empirically tested your theory. Until tested, it's not "knowledge." It's simply a theory.

 

 

But it's been a long and hard journey to get my wife to open up and discuss her issues... being polite doesn't mean we are afraid to discuss things. Actually, I wasn't afraid, but my wife was. But politeness has nothing to do with fear. If I yelled at my wife she wouldn't have been able to open up. This I know for sure...

 

What you said in a prior post was that you didn't yell because that would have made your relationship with your wife "even worse." All I am saying is that you might be correct about that; but you might not be correct about it. You've never tried it so you can't possibly "know."

[rewe4reel]

I can assure you, giotto.....a bunch of yelling is NEVER the solution to a marriage issue. I think you know that, too.

 

 

Nor did I suggest a "bunch of yelling" was the solution to any marriage issue, giotto's, yours, mine, or anyone else's.

 

What I specifically suggested giotto do was to yell at his wife 1x. As an experiment. Simply to see how she would respond.

 

He won't, because he is confident that he knows how she will respond, and apparently, that response will be so awful he can't ever risk actually trying it just out of curiosity to see what will happen.

[xxoo]

I could pick this apart, but I'm done. You are having trouble understanding because you grabbed something from another thread (a hypothetical reponse to an abusive situation), and decided it is descriptive of my marriage. You decided that my H said something about walking out with his kids to his boss (???). (The "gem" was his phasing--that I learned from him and use in my life, in general). You decided that because I sometimes lose my temper and yell, I think yelling is justified.

 

Think what you want. I'm done trying to change your mind about scaring your wife into line.

[rewe4reel]

you really want me to put the final nail in the coffin, don't you? Unfortunately, my wife never does anything which really irritates me... and before you mention sex, I'll mention it!

 

As far as I can tell the reason you came on to LS was because of a serious dissatisfaction with your marriage, specifically but not limited to a poor sex life. Did I misunderstand? To me that means the lack of sex was irritating to you.

 

 

she is paying attention to my needs, sex-wise, or at least she mentions it, to show that she is not ignoring me.

 

You're saying two contradictory things here but don't want to be perceived as doing that. First, you defend your wife (actually you're defending what you believe is the perception of yourself as competent in the relationship) by saying she is paying attention to your sex needs; then you immediately qualify/undercut that statement by saying "at least she mentions it." Well giotto that "qualification" completely eliminates the main point. "Mentioning" your sex needs is not the same as adequately satisfying them, i.e. "paying attention" to them in any meaningful way. It's simply giving lip service to them.

 

Either your sex life is satisfactory, or it is not. You haven't said that your sex life is satisfactory. What you have implied is that if you yelled at your wife you think it would make your marriage "even worse" which indicates you do not perceive it as a good marriage, as is.

 

 

 

I'm happy with that.

 

 

Then why would you use the phrase "EVEN worse" in describing the current state of your marriage?

 

 

I know my wife well enough to realise that what she is giving me is her maximum at the moment. And when I was confrontational in the past, she withdrew in her shell and goodbye.

 

....so "politeness" has nothing to do with it. You are afraid to yell at her because you believe she will withdraw into her shell and become even more sexually and emotionally withholding than she already is. That my friend is motivation from "fear," fear of what you believe she could impose as consequences, not "politeness" nor "respect."

 

If you actually "respected" your wife giotto you would give her the CREDIT of being strong enough to be yelled at, at least once in your marriage, without breaking like a fragile little glass sculpture.

 

 

 

You have an approach in life, which works for you, but I cannot help but thinking that there is vast cultural gap between your ways and my ways... maybe it's a European thing...

 

My "approach" to life is that if whatever I am doing is not working, I will try to change my approach if possible, until I find something that works. I do not assume I have perfect knowledge concerning things for which I have no empirical evidence nor prior track record, esp. when it comes to matters of human behavior and relationships, which are very complicated.

 

I also do not pretend to be "happy" when I am "unhappy."

[rewe4reel]

I could pick this apart, but I'm done.

 

 

I think "refuted" would probably be more accurate.

 

You are having trouble understanding because you grabbed something from another thread (a hypothetical response to an abusive situation), and decided it is descriptive of my marriage.

 

LOL, no, it simply means that like a lot of other people on the internet, in the process of trying to make a debating point when you read something that you disagreed with in one or more of my posts, you posted things/assert anecdotal things from your own life as "fact", to give credibility to your internet argument, that actually don't really accurately reflect your actual thoughts and behaviors in real life. When questioned on the inconsistencies in the anecdotal information, you backtrack.

 

That's OK. People do this all the time on the internet. That's why most of the time individualized anecdotal information is not really very useful in trying to figure out answers to the kinds of questions that have any sort of generalized interest.

 

Bottom line here is that you yell at your h. OK? So what else is new?

 

All you really needed to say was "Yes rewe4reel you're correct, yelling does occur even in very good relationships, I know that to be true because I yell/I've yelled at my husband too, even thought we have a good relationship."

 

 

 

 

You decided that my H said something about walking out with his kids to his boss (???). (The "gem" was his phasing--that I learned from him and use in my life, in general). You decided that because I sometimes lose my temper and yell, I think yelling is justified.

 

So what is the difference between a person who yells because they believe it to be justified, and a person who yells despite believing it not to be justified?

 

You seem to be implying that you are "better" in some intangible manner than the person who believes it to be justified because you give lip-service to the notion that your yelling was unjustified.

 

I would question that reasoning. The behaviors displayed are exactly the same; both are yelling. The other person has some reason that they think justifies it. You do not, but you yell anyway.

 

Is it better to be a person who yells only when they believe there is justification for it; or a person who yells regardless of whether they believe it to be justified; assuming that the actual yelling being done by both is identical?

 

 

 

 

Think what you want. I'm done trying to change your mind about scaring your wife into line.

 

 

I have the feeling you would like to yell at me. Feel free, I won't think any less of you.

[giotto]

I know how my wife would react because I've seen other people yelling at her. So, I do know... and I know how she reacts to some pressure, because I've put her under pressure... as far as the sex is concerned, I'm not entirely happy, but it's progress, certainly not reached by yelling... for you everything seems to be black and white and it's not. I'm either satisfied or not satisfied? Have you ever heard of "partially satisfied"? You don't seem to be able to understand other people's POVs... you twist them and then you use them at your advantage to gain some sort of superiority creating imaginary scenarios in your head... very sad...

[califnan]

Reel, If my husband yelled at me, I would plan my escape.

[rewe4reel]

I know how my wife would react because I've seen other people yelling at her.

 

"Other people" are not you.

 

By the way, what if anything did you do to intervene on your wife's behalf when you witnessed other people yelling at her? How many times did you actually witness something like this? Also, why do you suppose multiple different people felt compelled to yell at your wife? And so compelled that they would do it in front of her husband?

 

 

 

 

So, I do know... and I know how she reacts to some pressure, because I've put her under pressure...

 

Yes but your answer now raises a bunch of questions. Why are all these people yelling at your wife? Esp. if you are around to witness it? I can't say I have EVER witnessed anyone EVER yelling at my wife (other than myself as sometimes might occur if we are having a quarrel). I can't say my wife has EVER told me that ANYONE has EVER yelled at her during the course of our marriage.

 

 

 

 

as far as the sex is concerned, I'm not entirely happy, but it's progress, certainly not reached by yelling...

 

You previously said "I'm happy with that." Now it's "I'm not entirely happy" with that. Only you can decide what makes you happy. I just read what you wrote, and tried to respond to what you wrote.

 

 

for you everything seems to be black and white and it's not. I'm either satisfied or not satisfied? Have you ever heard of "partially satisfied"?

 

"Partially satisfied" = "dissatisfied." Either you believe you have a satisfactory sex life, or you don't. That's up to you. The fact that it is not as bad as it used to be does not mean that it is satisfactory.

 

 

 

 

 

You don't seem to be able to understand other people's POVs...

 

Disagreeing with someone else's POV doesn't mean I don't understand it.

 

Since I don't have any personal stake in someone else's life situation, I don't let someone else's subjective POV interfere with my best, objective evaluation of the actual facts of their situation. They are allowed to have whatever point of view they want, and to freely express it. However someone else's POV, esp. someone immersed in the very situation they are posting about, is simply a single data point, and not usually a very reliable data point, given the inherent bias that we all have when talking about ourselves.

 

 

 

 

you twist them and then you use them at your advantage to gain some sort of superiority creating imaginary scenarios in your head... very sad...

 

OK. Right now I am "imagining" that your marriage is fully satisfactory.

 

Did my imagining it change anything?

[rewe4reel]

Reel, If my husband yelled at me, I would plan my escape.

 

Why is that?

 

Actually, let's not talk about you.

 

Since xxoo has now admitted that she does in fact lose her temper and yell at her h from time to time, and also agrees with you that yelling is totally unacceptable under any circumstances, would you therefore advise xxoo's husband to plan his escape? In point of fact, that's what I read xxoo's original comments on this subject as implying--that her husband threated to leave with the kids if she yelled at him. She now states I misunderstood what she meant to communicate.

 

But now you califnan are suggesting that a "yelling spouse" is clearly grounds for "escape", i.e. separation and/or divorce.

 

This is an argument you should have with xxoo, not with me.

 

I don't believe a little bit of yelling now and then is grounds for "escape" so I disagree with the both of you.

Edited May 31, 2010 by rewe4reel

[giotto]

"Other people" are not you.

 

By the way, what if anything did you do to intervene on your wife's behalf when you witnessed other people yelling at her? How many times did you actually witness something like this? Also, why do you suppose multiple different people felt compelled to yell at your wife? And so compelled that they would do it in front of her husband?

Yes but your answer now raises a bunch of questions. Why are all these people yelling at your wife? Esp. if you are around to witness it? I can't say I have EVER witnessed anyone EVER yelling at my wife (other than myself as sometimes might occur if we are having a quarrel). I can't say my wife has EVER told me that ANYONE has EVER yelled at her during the course of our marriage.

 

I was talking about her parents... in an argument... it happened maybe once or twice in 25 years...

 

 

You previously said "I'm happy with that." Now it's "I'm not entirely happy" with that.

 

I was talking about the communication, not the sex.

 

"Partially satisfied" = "dissatisfied." Either you believe you have a satisfactory sex life, or you don't. That's up to you. The fact that it is not as bad as it used to be does not mean that it is satisfactory.

 

No, partially satisfied means "partially satisfied"

 

OK. Right now I am "imagining" that your marriage is fully satisfactory.

 

Did my imagining it change anything?

 

You are imagining wrong... my marriage is not fully satisfactory. I never said it was. I'm starting to doubt you can actually read...

 

Your reply is a clear demonstration that you don't even read people's responses properly and you are just hell-bent in proving that you are right and other people are wrong... for this reason, you can talk to yourself... that way you'll always be right...

[xxoo]

This is an argument you should have with xxoo, not with me.

 

No, I agree with califnan

[rewe4reel]

I was talking about her parents... in an argument... it happened maybe once or twice in 25 years...

 

On what rational or logical basis could you extrapolate your w's response to parental yelling which occurred maybe once or twice in 25 years to what her response would be to yourself? Also if you can't even remember whether it happened "once" or "twice" then it couldn't have really been that big of a deal. Alternatively your memory/perception of past events is inaccurate/unreliable. (Everyone's is.) The next question I would ask is what were the yelling incident/incidents with her parents about?

 

I mean seriously giotto....did they yell at her when she was a teenager because she wrecked dad's car 25 years ago? If so, what does that have to do with how she would behave in response to you yelling at her in your current relationship?

 

You may be right, but I see no logical connection between the fact that her parents may have yelled at her once (or twice) 25 years ago, and her response to that; and how she would react if you yelled at her for an entirely different reason, today. (Was it once or twice? Why don't you know how many times it was?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was talking about the communication, not the sex.

 

So you're saying the communication is satisfactory, and the sex isn't? Or is it the other way around? It's actually difficult to know precisely what you're talking about.

 

 

No, partially satisfied means "partially satisfied"

 

Remember what you said about me supposedly fabricating "imaginary scenarios"? Just because you don't want to straightforwardly acknowledge that you're still dissatisfied with your marriage, doesn't change whatever the actual facts are.

 

Question, and give me a straight answer: Are you getting enough quantity of sex of the quality that you want, or are you not?

 

A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

 

 

 

 

 

You are imagining wrong... my marriage is not fully satisfactory. I never said it was. I'm starting to doubt you can actually read...

 

I guess my point went clear over your head. You previously accused me of fabricating imaginary scenarios and attributed some malevolent motivation to me for doing so. I don't think you're correct about that, but what if you are? Does my imaginary scenario-fabricating have any influence whatsoever on your life? No. To test my hypothesis, I imagined a fantasy scenario in which your marriage was satisfactory.

 

As it turns out, I was absolutely correct, my imagination has no influence over the actual facts of your life. You acknowledge that your marriage was not fully satisfactory which proved my hypothesis that my ability to imagine false scenarios, if that's what it is, has no actual influence on your life.

 

When I imagine something (if I do) about your relationship that is not true, as you accuse me of doing, it has absolutely no influence on your life, good or bad. My imagination is irrelevant to your life.

 

The converse is NOT true. When YOU imagine something about your relationship that is not true, it has a very negative effect on your actual life, because it impairs your ability to make actual improvements in your relationship, which must be grounded in actual reality, not your fantasies.

 

 

It is definitely not a product of my imagination that your relationship is unsatisfactory, "partially satisfactory," satisfactory only as to communication but not as to sex, or whatever rationalization or equivocation you may wish to put on things. It is not a product of my imagination that your sex life is deemed by you to be not satisfactory, unsatisfactory, partially satisfactory, etc.

 

 

 

 

Your reply is a clear demonstration that you don't even read people's responses properly and you are just hell-bent in proving that you are right and other people are wrong... for this reason, you can talk to yourself... that way you'll always be right...

 

Like I said, I've got no problem whatsoever admitting that your "POV" is right and mine is wrong. What you don't seem to understand is that it doesn't change anything, because your "POV" is no more "real", "accurate," or "non-imaginary" than mine is.

 

I merely offered that you should try yelling at your wife 1x to see what happens. You're stated you're either too polite or too afraid to do so because you think it may make your already-bad marriage, worse. It would be (as you stated) the "last nail in the coffin." Effectively by using that metaphor you're basically implying your marriage is practically dead and buried and you're just trying to save it but things are very very fragile.

 

I'm not saying that it is or it isn't. I don't live your life, I just read what you post and respond to what you post. When someone says "last nail in the coffin" about a relationship, my POV is that the relationship is not going too well even without the last nail. When someone says doing something would make it "even worse" I assume that mean's it's not very good in the first place.

 

I find it fascinating that so many people post about there troubled relationships on LS supposedly looking for contrasting POVs, but what they are actually often seeking is reinforcement for something that's simply not working in the first place.

[rewe4reel]

No, I agree with califnan

 

Yes, but califnan's post indicates that if her h yelled at her she would be planning her escape from the marriage.

 

Since you have now admitted that you do yell at your h, and this has happened on multiple occasions, your agreement with califnan implies that you do not believe your h should remained married to you.

 

Now I guess if you respond at all you'll accuse me of "twisting" what you said.

 

Right?

[xxoo]

Yes, but califnan's post indicates that if her h yelled at her she would be planning her escape from the marriage.

 

Since you have now admitted that you do yell at your h, and this has happened on multiple occasions, your agreement with califnan implies that you do not believe your h should remained married to you.

 

Now I guess if you respond at all you'll accuse me of "twisting" what you said.

 

Right?

 

No, I'm done explaining. But I agree with califnan