summerautumn Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I am not a Buddhist, but in the last couple of days I started reading a book from my shelf by a Buddhist, When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron. Life had been joyful and progressive and then I felt completely blinded by a bout of depression, and because I don't have my favorite methods to deny and suppress the pain anymore, it felt even more intense than it's felt before. Our culture is so future oriented, I don't feel that there would be many people who would tell someone to give up all hope and consider it a good thing. There are the notable exceptions here on LS where posters are advised to give up the hope they carry that things will be different, when all past experiences are pointing to the contrary. I know I like to have hope for a better future. And while I am hopeful, life obviously looks better. But Pema's saying that in the hope is embedded the fear of loss, and the fear that whatever "it" is we want will never happen. After the pain of my depressive state had ended and I was calm, I sat there and just saw if I could become hopeless and allow the small death to occur, and then just Be with whatever is in this moment. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing to strive for, nothing to move away from. I have to say it feels peaceful to give up the possibility for future pleasure. It may or may not happen, but that's not for me to try to get. So, do you feel that you can give up the possibility of pleasure in the future in order to end your suffering now? She is also talking about the six kinds of loneliness but I haven't read that part yet.
ladydesigner Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I am not a Buddhist, but in the last couple of days I started reading a book from my shelf by a Buddhist, When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron. Life had been joyful and progressive and then I felt completely blinded by a bout of depression, and because I don't have my favorite methods to deny and suppress the pain anymore, it felt even more intense than it's felt before. Our culture is so future oriented, I don't feel that there would be many people who would tell someone to give up all hope and consider it a good thing. There are the notable exceptions here on LS where posters are advised to give up the hope they carry that things will be different, when all past experiences are pointing to the contrary. I know I like to have hope for a better future. And while I am hopeful, life obviously looks better. But Pema's saying that in the hope is embedded the fear of loss, and the fear that whatever "it" is we want will never happen. After the pain of my depressive state had ended and I was calm, I sat there and just saw if I could become hopeless and allow the small death to occur, and then just Be with whatever is in this moment. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing to strive for, nothing to move away from. I have to say it feels peaceful to give up the possibility for future pleasure. It may or may not happen, but that's not for me to try to get. So, do you feel that you can give up the possibility of pleasure in the future in order to end your suffering now? She is also talking about the six kinds of loneliness but I haven't read that part yet. Wow this sounds like a great book. I'll have to read it. I have done everything I can to end my pain, but it continues. I have faced what I have lost and am trying to find peace. I have many days that are peaceful, but then again that day comes and it hits me HARD... that I really do miss my XOM. I've accepted that and then it's time to move on again....
2sure Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I am not a Buddhist, but in the last couple of days I started reading a book from my shelf by a Buddhist, When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron. So, do you feel that you can give up the possibility of pleasure in the future in order to end your suffering now? I'll give this a whirl. I read the book. I'm guessing you have struggled with an addiction which previously got you to your "happy place". A difficult thing to give up. Could have been a drug, a relationship, a lifestyle, a job that ultimately gave you bad results. Thing is , giving up that "pleasure" does not necessarilly mean you need to find a way to give up future peasure OR that you need to find something else to give you pleasure in the future. When your suffering ends, in that alone you will find pleasure. The things you do to end your suffering are just moments along the way.
ladydesigner Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I am not a Buddhist, but in the last couple of days I started reading a book from my shelf by a Buddhist, When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron. So, do you feel that you can give up the possibility of pleasure in the future in order to end your suffering now? I'll give this a whirl. I read the book. I'm guessing you have struggled with an addiction which previously got you to your "happy place". A difficult thing to give up. Could have been a drug, a relationship, a lifestyle, a job that ultimately gave you bad results. Thing is , giving up that "pleasure" does not necessarilly mean you need to find a way to give up future peasure OR that you need to find something else to give you pleasure in the future. When your suffering ends, in that alone you will find pleasure. The things you do to end your suffering are just moments along the way. Very well said 2sure!
Author summerautumn Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 Wow this sounds like a great book. I'll have to read it. I have done everything I can to end my pain, but it continues. I have faced what I have lost and am trying to find peace. I have many days that are peaceful, but then again that day comes and it hits me HARD... that I really do miss my XOM. I've accepted that and then it's time to move on again.... It is awesome that you have accepted that emotion, to me that is so key and yet not exactly easily done! The acceptance that there is no ultimate end point to strive for to me is true acceptance. It is what it is. The book is powerful, she also talks about compassion where instead of running away from someone else's pain because it reminds you of your own pain, you embrace it and truly wish them relief from their pain.
Author summerautumn Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 I am not a Buddhist, but in the last couple of days I started reading a book from my shelf by a Buddhist, When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron. So, do you feel that you can give up the possibility of pleasure in the future in order to end your suffering now? I'll give this a whirl. I read the book. I'm guessing you have struggled with an addiction which previously got you to your "happy place". A difficult thing to give up. Could have been a drug, a relationship, a lifestyle, a job that ultimately gave you bad results. Thing is , giving up that "pleasure" does not necessarilly mean you need to find a way to give up future peasure OR that you need to find something else to give you pleasure in the future. When your suffering ends, in that alone you will find pleasure. The things you do to end your suffering are just moments along the way. Oh, how cool that you've read the book! I've had it for years and never read it until now. See that's the thing, I am starting to see that this whole end of suffering may not bring me what I want, i.e. lasting peace. I would truly love to believe that, but what if it is just some other thing that I am telling myself to escape what is? I mean, how is one pipe dream different from another? They are all pipe dreams. I guess I'd like to give up my desire to find the end of suffering. lol
2sure Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I guess I'd like to give up my desire to find the end of suffering. lol I think I get what you are saying...I'm just not deep enough or smart enough to answer you correctly so...take my spin on it for what its worth: Lasting Peace...you are thinking of it as in: A state of Lasting Peace instead of a state of Suffering. I dont think it works that way. I do think that when we learn to embrace, accept, and move from one to other with some grace, some hope, some confidence...we get to a general state of contentment. So striving for all of one, trying to remove yourself completely from one state to another...I dont think that exactly possible. Circumstance happen, emotions cannot be avoided, but learning to accept and embrace must be followed by moving on...from one to other. Thats contentment with either.
2sure Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Crap. One other thing. I think maybe, like me...you are in the midst of big changes. I am leaving a marriage that didnt work, I love him, but I have to leave. I cannot yet Envision my life and future without him although I have taken big steps to make one. I cannot yet imagine being happy without him...but I will. The steps I'm taking now will eventually allow me to build up a visual of a life I want to strive for. That will make it easier.
candymoon Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 The book is powerful, she also talks about compassion where instead of running away from someone else's pain because it reminds you of your own pain, you embrace it and truly wish them relief from their pain. ....and thereby giving yourself relief of your own pain by proxy, I would think. I will order this book, like, yesterday.
Author summerautumn Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 I think I get what you are saying...I'm just not deep enough or smart enough to answer you correctly so...take my spin on it for what its worth: Lasting Peace...you are thinking of it as in: A state of Lasting Peace instead of a state of Suffering. I dont think it works that way. I do think that when we learn to embrace, accept, and move from one to other with some grace, some hope, some confidence...we get to a general state of contentment. So striving for all of one, trying to remove yourself completely from one state to another...I dont think that exactly possible. Circumstance happen, emotions cannot be avoided, but learning to accept and embrace must be followed by moving on...from one to other. Thats contentment with either. I really like the way you put that! Moving from one state to another with grace and allowing - love it. As for the book and hopelessness, I am thinking about it and personally don't feel that this complete lack of belief in anything is for me. Yes, I suppose that would be a very surrendered state of being, but I can't quite fathom it as a way of living. Regarding your question, I am not going through quite the life transformation you are going through, at least not on an external level. But my depressed episode came from feeling that I want to heal and it is not happening the way I envisioned it would. There has been tremendous progress, and yet some of my thoughts appear the same. I have held a "vision" of being whole and made many steps on that path, yet I still feel like it is not enough. My best friend feels that I am not being patient enough. He feels that it takes quite a long time of "work" to dissolve all those pattens( and he did it himself, truly!). I tend to want the dramatic shifts, waking up and being new. As I sit right now, I feel that all is as it should be, yet I have some fear for the next time I will be depressed and have all kinds of thoughts run through my head. I guess it is the great contrast between the states of peace and suffering that's bothering me.
silverplanets Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 Lasting Peace...you are thinking of it as in: A state of Lasting Peace instead of a state of Suffering. I dont think it works that way. I do think that when we learn to embrace, accept, and move from one to other with some grace, some hope, some confidence...we get to a general state of contentment. So striving for all of one, trying to remove yourself completely from one state to another...I dont think that exactly possible. Circumstance happen, emotions cannot be avoided, but learning to accept and embrace must be followed by moving on...from one to other. Thats contentment with either. Lovely thread Why do you have to *wait* for anything to get your inner peace/happiness/contentment .... If you are hurting then it is because you are alive ... as surely as if you broke your leg it would hurt ... any further internal significance you assign to it is your choice. What is hurting? How is it hurting? How does it feel? How do those feelings travel in your body? How does it get into your mind? How does it get from your mind to you???? How many neurons are in your mind? How do synapses work? How do your eyes process so much information etc etc How does all this (ie the physical you) generate from DNA and cells? How does the sun provide the energy that we walk under ... how does your body convert water and food into energy ... How many "miracles" are there in every second that allow this universe, galaxy, solar system and planet to exist and which you sit in. Why do you need to wait to feel the awe and happiness of this very moment .... One of my favourite quotes is Einstein's ... "There are two ways to live your life - one is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is a miracle." For me pure joy comes not in the future but when I sit quietly, let myself feel what I am feeling *right now* ... and genuinly smile at the joy of being able to be here, feel things and just be me. ..... I've also found that if I do this, any actions or path that I might like to take in this world become very clear to me. .... And for me, this is the most destructive affect of A's .. the drama distracts people from the fundamental peace , joy and inner contentment that can be their's if they wish. ..... be happy Chris
pureinheart Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 Lovely thread Why do you have to *wait* for anything to get your inner peace/happiness/contentment .... If you are hurting then it is because you are alive ... as surely as if you broke your leg it would hurt ... any further internal significance you assign to it is your choice. What is hurting? How is it hurting? How does it feel? How do those feelings travel in your body? How does it get into your mind? How does it get from your mind to you???? How many neurons are in your mind? How do synapses work? How do your eyes process so much information etc etc How does all this (ie the physical you) generate from DNA and cells? How does the sun provide the energy that we walk under ... how does your body convert water and food into energy ... How many "miracles" are there in every second that allow this universe, galaxy, solar system and planet to exist and which you sit in. Why do you need to wait to feel the awe and happiness of this very moment .... One of my favourite quotes is Einstein's ... "There are two ways to live your life - one is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is a miracle." For me pure joy comes not in the future but when I sit quietly, let myself feel what I am feeling *right now* ... and genuinly smile at the joy of being able to be here, feel things and just be me. ..... I've also found that if I do this, any actions or path that I might like to take in this world become very clear to me. .... And for me, this is the most destructive affect of A's .. the drama distracts people from the fundamental peace , joy and inner contentment that can be their's if they wish. ..... be happy Chris There's our Chris:D...this is great....
pureinheart Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 Yeah. Anxiety. I know it well, and it sucks. Yup...me too and am really burned out on it
OWoman Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 So, do you feel that you can give up the possibility of pleasure in the future in order to end your suffering now? I didn't last as a Buddhist because of this. I ENJOY pleasure! I want to feel it! I don't want to lose attachment to pleasure, and to feel only equanimity. I WANT the highs, lows, and intense colours, and not just the shades of neutral offered by equanimity. (Also, as an activist, I could not agree with the notion of dispassionate equanimity in the face of injustice - I HAD to act, I couldn't "merely" recognise my feelings of attachment, and let them go... So, much as I value aspects of Buddhism, I recognised that it wasn't for me!) Perhaps because I'm an artist and not an accountant, I love the intensity of life. Sure, there's pain, but there's also pleasure. There's suffering, but also joy. There's darkness, but also light. Would I give up the latter to escape the former? No way! I love the rich tapestry, the variety and diversity. I love the challenge and the changes. That said, I don't do hope, and I don't do fear, in any significant way. One thing Buddhism did teach me was that it's OK to live in the moment. I'm not attached to any great hopes for the future, nor any great fears. And the past is past - I don't cling to happy memories nor lament unhappy ones. I'm here, now, and that's what matters to me.
Author summerautumn Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 Lovely thread Why do you have to *wait* for anything to get your inner peace/happiness/contentment .... If you are hurting then it is because you are alive ... as surely as if you broke your leg it would hurt ... any further internal significance you assign to it is your choice. What is hurting? How is it hurting? How does it feel? How do those feelings travel in your body? How does it get into your mind? How does it get from your mind to you???? How many neurons are in your mind? How do synapses work? How do your eyes process so much information etc etc How does all this (ie the physical you) generate from DNA and cells? How does the sun provide the energy that we walk under ... how does your body convert water and food into energy ... How many "miracles" are there in every second that allow this universe, galaxy, solar system and planet to exist and which you sit in. Why do you need to wait to feel the awe and happiness of this very moment .... One of my favourite quotes is Einstein's ... "There are two ways to live your life - one is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is a miracle." For me pure joy comes not in the future but when I sit quietly, let myself feel what I am feeling *right now* ... and genuinly smile at the joy of being able to be here, feel things and just be me. ..... I've also found that if I do this, any actions or path that I might like to take in this world become very clear to me. .... And for me, this is the most destructive affect of A's .. the drama distracts people from the fundamental peace , joy and inner contentment that can be their's if they wish. ..... be happy Chris I Love your response, Chris! I wholeheartedly agree with you! Yes, the miracles are Awe inspiring, and the only way to tap into their magnificence is in the Now moment. That Einstein quote is one of my favorites, yet I used to understand it only intellectually and now I am actually experiencing the truth of it. I was going to put a little asterisk regarding your point about As, but then I agreed with that statement as well. The EA or more so the end of the EA propelled me to Get in the Now faster than anything, lol. And as I did that there was very little drama I experienced. It became so clear cut. Yet it also brought up my past negative patterns. I couldn't be upset at him and the EA, I knew it was much deeper than that. I didn't want to kill the messenger. With that said, I do know that the Now is where the "fundamental peace , joy and inner contentment" is, and am choosing to dwell here, instead of the past or the future.
Author summerautumn Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 I didn't last as a Buddhist because of this. I ENJOY pleasure! I want to feel it! I don't want to lose attachment to pleasure, and to feel only equanimity. I WANT the highs, lows, and intense colours, and not just the shades of neutral offered by equanimity. (Also, as an activist, I could not agree with the notion of dispassionate equanimity in the face of injustice - I HAD to act, I couldn't "merely" recognise my feelings of attachment, and let them go... So, much as I value aspects of Buddhism, I recognised that it wasn't for me!) Perhaps because I'm an artist and not an accountant, I love the intensity of life. Sure, there's pain, but there's also pleasure. There's suffering, but also joy. There's darkness, but also light. Would I give up the latter to escape the former? No way! I love the rich tapestry, the variety and diversity. I love the challenge and the changes. That said, I don't do hope, and I don't do fear, in any significant way. One thing Buddhism did teach me was that it's OK to live in the moment. I'm not attached to any great hopes for the future, nor any great fears. And the past is past - I don't cling to happy memories nor lament unhappy ones. I'm here, now, and that's what matters to me. OW, I do sense that lack or fear or hope in your posts, and the lack of attachment to past memories and future and it is no wonder you started a Happy Thread. It is inspiring! I would venture to say that even though you say you don't want to give up your attachment to pleasure, you essentially have, because you've accepted it for what it is, and are not clinging to it or expecting it to make you happy. You are just experiencing it, and then are on to the next now moment. I wonder if you were always like that, or was that a shift for you? I love that second paragraph, there is a tremendous richness that makes the world colorful. What I am finding lately is not that I have to give up the colors and the intensity, but more so have to give up the attachment to the ups and the downs and just experience them, but experience them fully. I recognize how much of life I spent not really experiencing what's there. I am not saying that to beat myself up though, for I know that's a total trap. lol
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