I Miss the Kiss Posted May 23, 2010 Posted May 23, 2010 I have a quick question and would love some insight from others... I've been thinking... do you think there's a difference between a MM who feel "guilt" over breaking up his M versus the MM just needing time to mourn that loss? My xMM has a lot of guilt, yet has little true love for his W. They could be amazing friends, but the passion and love it not there. he has often confused the guilt he feels for normal mourning of a lost R... at least that's my opinion. I don't know... I'm just curious if its normal for the MM to feel such guilt yet it still be possible that he doesn't want to be with her... does that make sense? I hope I am being clear...
DadofTwoGirls Posted May 23, 2010 Posted May 23, 2010 IMO...It all depends on what the marriage was like...obviously unless he was a scumbag just chasing tail then he feels nothing for either partner...but if he wasn't the pursuer than I believe at some level he wishes he could have a 'normal loving' relationship with the woman he said " I DO" to...If kids are involved that also plays a role..at least in my situation I never wanted a PA...and if you can believe it said no several times..but at the end of the day the problems at home were still there mounting up..something had to give..and vice versa for my wife..I'm pretty sure the guilt comes from the inability to recognize the severity of the problems leading to stagnant frustrations from both spouses thus leading to the PA which just piled on more guilt after the fact...and if my wife has done it I hope she takes it to her grave although I would understand it if she strayed...I just wouldn't want to know about it.
LucreziaBorgia Posted May 23, 2010 Posted May 23, 2010 He could likely be feeling guilt over having 'failed' at a societal 'norm' ie: marriage. Not necessarily feeling it over the loss of his wife, but the feeling that he has somehow failed as a man in general. He could be in a touch of mourning as well. Regardless of how ready he is to divorce, there was a time where he wanted very much to be with her and he is likely mourning the loss of those feelings, and the loss of their shared past. Any change in a situation like that is brimming with complex and often dissonant feelings.
jthorne Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 I agree with LB. IMTK, You KNOW what I'm going to ask you, right? You know. Not giving you any grief, but if you are staying away from xMM, why does this concern you?
Fallen Angel Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 I have a quick question and would love some insight from others... I've been thinking... do you think there's a difference between a MM who feel "guilt" over breaking up his M versus the MM just needing time to mourn that loss? My xMM has a lot of guilt, yet has little true love for his W. They could be amazing friends, but the passion and love it not there. he has often confused the guilt he feels for normal mourning of a lost R... at least that's my opinion. I don't know... I'm just curious if its normal for the MM to feel such guilt yet it still be possible that he doesn't want to be with her... does that make sense? I hope I am being clear... Likely he is feeling guilt over the pain he knows he caused to everyone involved. That should be considered normal and healthy. I, for one, would be concrened if he did not feel guilt over the whole situation. His guilt shows that his behaviour is not the "norm" for him, that he can feel remorse for the things he has done to hurt others. He is also likely mourning the loss of the marriage. Again, a normal and healthy response I think. Even though my marriage was miserable for many many years, when it was finally over, I too, mourned the loss. Not so much the loss of the man (my exhusband) but the loss of the hope I had for my life and our relationship on the day we wed. Mourning the loss of the ideal is different than mourning the loss of the person. I would have to assume that because you say he and she could be good friends he is also mourning the loss of that friendship. And yet again, i think that is a perfectly normal and natural response. He needs time to mourn the losses he has experienced, even loving you will not diminish those feelings. I personally believe they are healthy and a good sign that he can in time be ready for another healthy committed relationship. I went through a period of mourning after my separation despite the immense love I have for My Sweetheart. I spent the time I needed to feel I had acheived closure, and I am now healed from that pain and am able to commit myself wholely to my new love. P.S. yesterday would have been my 17th wedding anniversary. I did not realize it until today. I was able to look back and remember a few good times in my marriage and smile, and then go on with my day. It was a good day, and it proved to me that i am now truly healed from the breakup of my marriage.
Author I Miss the Kiss Posted May 24, 2010 Author Posted May 24, 2010 I agree with LB. IMTK, You KNOW what I'm going to ask you, right? You know. Not giving you any grief, but if you are staying away from xMM, why does this concern you? I knew that question was coming :-) I was ready! LOL Well, he sucked me back in to a degree, but I went into it with eyes wide open. Basically what happened is he panicked when I told him I was moving on (as HE had requested). I heard the sadness, jeaolousy, BLA BLA BLA... and back I went. I've even seen him But its OKAY. I'm human and I lost my step. I will do better next time. We've ended things again, this time at my request (not that it matters when i keep letting him back in). I really have no defense for this. I am hurting, actually quite shattered right now, but for some reason I am also at peace with my future. I really am. I'm functioning, I'm okay with my shortcomings when it comes to the xMM. As I said, I will do better next time. What prompted my question was that xMM is now feeling guilty (his word) for what has happened and now wonders if he might love her "on some level." ON SOME LEVEL??!! LOL I said to him, "Of course you do! She is the mother of your children, you have spent years with her..." I really think he is just working through the mourning process, not so much the residual love. I saw the divorce papers with my own two eyes. I saw his response filed by his attorney. I saw the place where he has been living. So although I confirmed some things I wasn't sure about, he still wakes up with me having "guilt." I keep telling him that no man who LOVES his W lives apart from her for 4+ months, sleeps with and leads basically another life with another woman, and contuinues to do so time and time again. He even unblocked me from his text (his W went in and blocked me again). So I'm not sure where his guilt was during all that... when I spent the night with him and his W lives just down the road? No guilt anywhere in sight... I'm seeing him (albeit VERY SLOWLY) for what he really is. And for the first time, I'm really okay with it. I honestly believe I am ready to move forward, and if that means I fall down once in a while, then so be it... He is really a pretty mean person I'm finding. I picked up his cell phone that was lying right next to my head on the nightstand the other night. Up popped his text message page, and he had received a text from his W during the time I was making the drive up to see him (I was almost there!) Here's how it read: W: What are you doing? MM: Getting ready for bed. (this was priceless, the irony!) W: Well good night then. MM: Good night, sleep well. W: I'm not feeling all that well, physically or my heart. My heart hurts MM: Sorry. Have a good night. WTF??!!! "Have a good night"?! I thought that was cold... so, so cold. UGH. These are the things that keep me looking forward... I'm going to be just fine. Lots of plans with friends both male and female in the coming weeks, and finally I am VERY excited about it all!!!
Author I Miss the Kiss Posted May 24, 2010 Author Posted May 24, 2010 Likely he is feeling guilt over the pain he knows he caused to everyone involved. That should be considered normal and healthy. I, for one, would be concrened if he did not feel guilt over the whole situation. His guilt shows that his behaviour is not the "norm" for him, that he can feel remorse for the things he has done to hurt others. He is also likely mourning the loss of the marriage. Again, a normal and healthy response I think. Even though my marriage was miserable for many many years, when it was finally over, I too, mourned the loss. Not so much the loss of the man (my exhusband) but the loss of the hope I had for my life and our relationship on the day we wed. Mourning the loss of the ideal is different than mourning the loss of the person. I would have to assume that because you say he and she could be good friends he is also mourning the loss of that friendship. And yet again, i think that is a perfectly normal and natural response. He needs time to mourn the losses he has experienced, even loving you will not diminish those feelings. I personally believe they are healthy and a good sign that he can in time be ready for another healthy committed relationship. I went through a period of mourning after my separation despite the immense love I have for My Sweetheart. I spent the time I needed to feel I had acheived closure, and I am now healed from that pain and am able to commit myself wholely to my new love. P.S. yesterday would have been my 17th wedding anniversary. I did not realize it until today. I was able to look back and remember a few good times in my marriage and smile, and then go on with my day. It was a good day, and it proved to me that i am now truly healed from the breakup of my marriage. Excellent post, FA. That really put it into perspective. I beolieve this is EXACTLY what xMM is dealing with, although right now he thinks "Wait... what if this guilt is because I love her?!" Only he will know the answer...
jthorne Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 Ugh. But it shouldn't surprise you too much should it? After all the coldness he's shown you? I am so glad you are finally seeing it. Dare I ask if you got the quilt back, or is it a lost cause?
jwi71 Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 I have a quick question and would love some insight from others... I've been thinking... do you think there's a difference between a MM who feel "guilt" over breaking up his M versus the MM just needing time to mourn that loss? My xMM has a lot of guilt, yet has little true love for his W. They could be amazing friends, but the passion and love it not there. he has often confused the guilt he feels for normal mourning of a lost R... at least that's my opinion. I don't know... I'm just curious if its normal for the MM to feel such guilt yet it still be possible that he doesn't want to be with her... does that make sense? I hope I am being clear... Mourning and guilt are not related at all. Mourning is sadness at the loss of something...in this case, a M. I filed for D from my xWW and I STILL mourned the loss of the M and the illusion of a happy family life I had. Guilt is sadness at one's actions. In essence, they fell sorry for THEMSELVES at the loss (and their role in it all). Though you didn't mention this, I will. Remorse is sadness felt for OTHERS (as opposed to the self). This, of course, requires empahty towards others - which ties nicely into the selfishness of an A. In order to to have an A, the empathy towards others (for hurting them) MUST be eclipsed by their own selfish desires (me before others, insufficient empathy). This, for me, is why cheaters fell GUILT but NOT REMORSE. And everyone mourns.
bittersweet memories Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 Mourning and guilt are not related at all. Mourning is sadness at the loss of something...in this case, a M. I filed for D from my xWW and I STILL mourned the loss of the M and the illusion of a happy family life I had. Guilt is sadness at one's actions. In essence, they fell sorry for THEMSELVES at the loss (and their role in it all). Though you didn't mention this, I will. Remorse is sadness felt for OTHERS (as opposed to the self). This, of course, requires empahty towards others - which ties nicely into the selfishness of an A. In order to to have an A, the empathy towards others (for hurting them) MUST be eclipsed by their own selfish desires (me before others, insufficient empathy). This, for me, is why cheaters fell GUILT but NOT REMORSE. And everyone mourns. jwi71 for some reason I always thought you were a woman. Yikes! You give great advice by the way.
Fallen Angel Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 jwi71 for some reason I always thought you were a woman. Yikes! You give great advice by the way. Really? I have always found his wording and straightforwardness to be very masculine. I would have thought the way he has always been on a very even "emotional" keel when responding to posts would have been the big tip off here. Women, in my opinion tend to be much more overtly emotionally responsive. But I agree that he gives great advice. (Even if I am not ready to take it!) ((hugs to JWI))
lilagirl Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 As a WS and OW of a "split self" mM, I can say that it is definately normal for a man to feel guilt AND mourn the loss of the M. The M is the only future present,its all one thinks about as reality. To lose that, whether you caused it, or even wanted it, is extremely hard to deal with. Its all you know. I felt so much guilt and I am still mouning, yet, I want nothing to do with my stbxH. I miss what was supposed to be.
Author I Miss the Kiss Posted May 24, 2010 Author Posted May 24, 2010 Ugh. But it shouldn't surprise you too much should it? After all the coldness he's shown you? I am so glad you are finally seeing it. Dare I ask if you got the quilt back, or is it a lost cause? Not only did I not take it back, I slept beneath it when I was with him... But for some reason I'm okay with that... I loved him the only way I knew how-- by being a giving and caring woman. I can't take it back out of anger or because I didn't get what I want. I have hundreds more of those quilts my grandma made, and although this one is just as special to me as the rest, somehow I think my grandma would be okay with me giving it to someone I loved, even if it didn't work out in the end... I do miss him tonight Tomorrow is another day though... I'll be okay!
GreenEyedLady Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 You know, I think there's a big difference between guilt and plain old shame... What it sounds like your (X)MM is experiencing is not guilt, but shame for doing something he feels like he shouldn't. It still sounds like it's all about him. Guilt actually requires realizing that you've hurt others. Shame is just getting caught doing something you know you shouldn't have. And I don't agree with the mourning. If your MM is in mourning at this point, it usually means he's a waffler and that he's unsure, and will end up going back and forth. And from watching what happens here at LS, a high majority of the wafflers go back to the W's or end up blaming the OW and the R disintegrates, anyway. Everyone mourns, but at different points. After I had been married 2 years, I knew it was not going to end with happily ever after. I mourned during the duration of my M. I was ready to move on when we separated and was already OVER the mourning period (and no I did not cheat on my XH). I think if someone is not mourning until the end of the M, they were either forced into it or not ready to move on. And that explains the waffling... It is not normal for a man to feel guilt and mourn the loss of the M...That essentially means that he did not want to end the M, no matter what anyone wants to believe... How many women want to KNOW that their man came to them and felt guilty and was mourning the loss of another woman? It's time to be real here... GEL
GreenEyedLady Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 I can't take it back out of anger or because I didn't get what I want. Well, why the hell not? I don't understand why posters don't 'get' it. No one respects someone who doesn't respect themselves. You've made this big deal about the quilt yet didn't take it back when you had the chance. So now he knows you're not serious and that your questions about getting it back were just "fishing" expeditions. At this point, you're not playing for keeps and he knows it. Men respect women who have boundaries and don't let anyone cross them. Men play with women who have no boundaries and then go home to the ones who have boundaries. Which one are you? If you want this man (which I can't tell if you seriously do or not) then get your act together. GEL
White Flower Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 Here's how it read: W: What are you doing? MM: Getting ready for bed. (this was priceless, the irony!) W: Well good night then. MM: Good night, sleep well. W: I'm not feeling all that well, physically or my heart. My heart hurts MM: Sorry. Have a good night. WTF??!!! "Have a good night"?! I thought that was cold... so, so cold. UGH. These are the things that keep me looking forward... I'm going to be just fine. Lots of plans with friends both male and female in the coming weeks, and finally I am VERY excited about it all!!! That is all he could say??? Wow. Wow. I'm glad you saw that IMTK. Wow.
Fallen Angel Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 That is all he could say??? Wow. Wow. I'm glad you saw that IMTK. Wow. I am just curious as to how people think he should have responded to that. they are separated, and a divorce is supposed to be in the works. Should he have pretended to show compassion for her that he doesn't feel and give her false hope for yet another false reconcilliation? I think that cutting off that kind of "I Miss you" communication between them is what is best if he is truly ending the marriage this time. My now xH used to tell me all the time "I still love you and I still want you to come home." He would say this to me in front of his current partner. When she got upset about it, he told her that I would always be his wife and that I would always be the only woman he loves. I responded by telling him that if he continued to speak like that to or about me that I would end the phone call. It was the kindest thing I could do for him. To respond to his "hurt and loss" with even the remotest bit of kindness was to encourage his behaviour.
White Flower Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 I am just curious as to how people think he should have responded to that. they are separated, and a divorce is supposed to be in the works. Should he have pretended to show compassion for her that he doesn't feel and give her false hope for yet another false reconcilliation? I was under the impression that he was trying to make the M work. Last I heard, he still loved his wife and wanted to work on reconciliation. If that is the case, I think his reply was cold.
Fallen Angel Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 I was under the impression that he was trying to make the M work. Last I heard, he still loved his wife and wanted to work on reconciliation. If that is the case, I think his reply was cold. Okay, well now I am confussed even more. I was under the impression that they are separated and that is why they were texting instead of talking to each other from their own sides of the same bed when it was time to say goodnight.
White Flower Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 Okay, well now I am confussed even more. I was under the impression that they are separated and that is why they were texting instead of talking to each other from their own sides of the same bed when it was time to say goodnight. IMTK....HELP!!!
Ms. Red Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 jwi71 for some reason I always thought you were a woman. Yikes! You give great advice by the way. This is why I wish that members would put their gender in their profiles. I've had a hard time figuring that out w/ some members.
Ms. Red Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 Okay, well now I am confussed even more. I was under the impression that they are separated and that is why they were texting instead of talking to each other from their own sides of the same bed when it was time to say goodnight. Last I remember is that he has his own apartment.
pureinheart Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 I have a quick question and would love some insight from others... I've been thinking... do you think there's a difference between a MM who feel "guilt" over breaking up his M versus the MM just needing time to mourn that loss? My xMM has a lot of guilt, yet has little true love for his W. They could be amazing friends, but the passion and love it not there. he has often confused the guilt he feels for normal mourning of a lost R... at least that's my opinion. I don't know... I'm just curious if its normal for the MM to feel such guilt yet it still be possible that he doesn't want to be with her... does that make sense? I hope I am being clear... 1st bold...whenever there is a D a death has taken place regardless if the D was desired or not...I experienced this. 2nd bold...Most definitely, and there are many reasons...man, I could name a bunch of them the exDM went through. There is great conflict, especially with long term M's...something changes in the MP and there is a need for change, yet the change is VERY difficult...so many factors. Hope this helps and hope you are ok!
whichwayisup Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 He is really a pretty mean person I'm finding He's been mean for a long time. Remember the way he's treated you on and off for so long? Maybe it's not calculated cruel like what he said to his wife, that was jerkish of him to say that her. Anyway, like I said to you many months ago and I'll say it again, when you want to get over him and end things forever, get him out of your life, stay in NC mode - You'll do it. When you've reached your enough is enough phase. To be honest, I am surprised that you've allowed him back into your life. The affair dynamic is on-going and it's not healthy. This isn't love, it's sex/lust and addiction to one another. Maybe go back and re-read ALL your threads. You've been through the wringer with this guy, yet you keep on inviting him back and then you get hurt. When is it going to end? When is your "enough is enough" going to happen? Take care Kissy, and I hope you find your way through this..
Author I Miss the Kiss Posted May 24, 2010 Author Posted May 24, 2010 IMTK....HELP!!! Yes, they are separated (now legally after she filed). He has not lived with her since 1/23/2010. He lives in his own place now. So no, they were not texting from opposite sides of the bed. She was at her home, he at his. I hope that makes it a little less confusing!
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